You say I may be pleasantly surprised, by what might I ask? I've seen the same screen captures you have. What is it that I may find so pleasing? You're talking to someone that was elated when 10.0 came out and I got to experience aqua after 9.2. My first 600 MHz iBook (my first laptop ever) ran both OS's and I used them both. I loved the look of OS X. I loved seeing my friends who were Windows lovers (and some still are today) looking at how fantastic it looked on that rather low resolution screen.
Just move forward to Lion and I'm sitting here with an 8-core Mac Pro and a 30" Cinema Display with more than a HD resolution, and I'm watching the OS bleach out until it's nothing more than a bunch of gray buttons and disappearing sliders. And you suggest that I might be pleasantly surprised? What exactly would you have me be pleasantly surprised by? I'd really like to know. What is it that you find so awe inspiring with an OS that has all the appearance of the gravel in my driveway? I know there are people who are easily distracted, and I'm sorry for them, but I'm not one of those people who gets distracted. I see the OS I've supported from the very beginning becoming something that's not even interesting to look at. When an OS is no longer interesting to interact with, what is there really? What's the point? Gestures? Is that all I have to look forward to? I can't even manage to teach my parents how to use the gestures included in Snow Leopard. What's the point of even trying to get them to use the gestures with Lion?
Let's be blunt here and accept the fact that there are two kinds of users in the Mac Community. There are those people who want nothing. They want bare bones. These people exist in Terminal, and they think that even iTunes has far too much color for their world. They get distracted by everything around them, and they don't want anything between them and what they are doing. Then, at the opposite side of the spectrum, you have people like me. I don't use the Terminal, I enjoyed Aqua, I enjoyed the Dock not being that reflective thing, and I enjoyed the OS being so fantastically different visually from everything else out there that people were literally drawn to look at my screen and ask about all the things they were seeing.
I've converted over 40 colleagues alone to the Mac OS. Every single person in my immediate family has switched over to the Mac because of my insistence. I'm the one they all call when they can't figure out how to do something. What does it tell you as a fellow Mac user when you see someone who's been with the OS since it first turned to color, all of a sudden having very serious doubts about my love for Lion? I've seen the same screen shots you have. It's appallingly bland and doesn't appeal to the eye in even the slightest way, in my opinion. It seems that the people who want to see nothing, and experience the least possible from the OS have won. What I've seen of Lion is about as visually impressive as the inside of a hospital. It's apparently what you want in an OS. I may end up using it, but they'll never get me to say that I find it visually pleasing. I never thought I see the day when I'd lose faith in the Mac OS, but Lion has truly let down those of us looking for something more, not less, from our interaction with the OS from what I've seen so far. It's just depressing.
OK. I'm gonna give ya the benefit of the doubt here, because you have helped other people discover the Mac. You're probably right in that many people have a difficult time differentiating in shades of gray... they need big colorful buttons and sorts... like "Fisher-Price XP".
So I'm curious: can you show us how YOU would design the GUI? Or, what are your favorite website designs?
Me personally:
1) Aqua needs to go, not only because it is dated, but because it just plain looks awkward as it is at the moment (the water bubble for instance looks like a screen failure).
2) all of that Faux-look stuff needs to definitely get off of "my desktop" one way or another!!! Notice I did not degrade it or the people that like it... it's just not for me!
3) Can we agree, that to please both sides of this "personal taste" argument, Apple or a third party like Onyx, MUST add the ability to "mod" or preference change the Lion OS to your liking?
PS. I've "converted" many hundreds more than you have, and to tell ya the truth, there are a number of them in memory that are suspect to having the same point of view as you do. So I better be prepared and careful when these arguments hit me. Thanks for the heads up
I would be curious to know the amount if code it takes for each style. If the drab takes a third the lines of code for each element then you could have the reason right there.
Further possible reasons:
The Aqua look was very hard to imitate in html.
Also, Apple wants its apps to look nice for people used to Windows, adding subtleties to set it apart from Windows apps.
Of course, successful interface elements in iOS will migrate back to MacOSX
One thing I abhor, and have seen in certain iOS apps is that plain buttons are sometimes used for drop-down menus. There should be enough differentiation between interface elements that have distinct functionality.
These are the kind of posts that shutdown discussion and turn this into a discussion about people hating other people instead of what people like. Things would be much clearer if those that talked like a politician trying to bias people were prevented from posting.
Because I disagree with the way Lion is turning out, and that I'm not praising the design of the OS, it's color palette, and it's elimination of scrollbars, is reason enough to suggest that my opinion as a lifelong Mac user holds no merit here? There are plenty of people in this thread who are very happy with the direction the OS is taking, and they've made their points. When I asked what would make me pleasantly surprised by Lion, you suggest I not be allowed to post? I asked the questions, I validated my points, and gave a brief description of my long history with the Mac. I certainly didn't personally attack you, or mstone. I did take issue with what ThePixelDoc said because he was telling me to switch to Windows rather than voice my opposition for the way Lion is looking. I'm not going to be told to jump ship when I have a differing opinion of how the OS ought to look.
I've been with this site since 2003, and I've rarely voiced my opinion. I'm not in the habit of posting bitter diatribes about all things Mac. Most of the time I have no position regarding postings. With Lion, and all that I've seen posted thus far, I've taken exception with the way it looks. I like the look of Aqua (which is what the OP is about) and I think leaving it behind for the look of Lion is a misstep.
Me too. The only thing that i very dislike are the new scrollbars, even in iOS!! I want to see them. F.e. i want to know how much is hidden of the document or view, with no scrollbars i can see that.
I'd never take advice from someone who has a gray screen by choice. You certainly aren't the rule, you're the exception. The iOS has one or two people buying Apple products because it's colorful. You must really hate that. I do have an iPhone and I won't give it up. It has far more color on the puny screen than I've seen in Lion so far.
As for your Windows comment, you're clearly mistaken, I've been with Mac since System 7. I've never owned a Windows PC, and the only ones I have interacted with have been at work where I was forced to use them. Of course I think you just enjoy being hostile toward people who don't see things your way. Good luck inspiring people with that.
Well considering that I'm an Art Director/Designer and consultant for many packaging firms, and that I have come into contact with 100's (1000's?) of Mac users since 1984, your assessment that I can't inspire people is wrong... since I/we indeed "insist" on 100-128rgb backgrounds. I will grant you, it is an industry specific preference.
Please see by my above post, that I am willing to meet you and the average user half-way, or your way even, if Apple or a 3rd party software gives us (hopefully) that choice.
My apologies that we designer-types are confronted with tastes and trends daily, and are paid well to influence people with our personal design sense and taste, to buy our clients products. The average person does not know why they can "perceive" what is expensive, what makes an item a "luxury item", or a why a simple curve, color, material... can influence their perception of an image or brand.
Apple is probably the only big company in the tech sector that truly understands this, thanks to Jonny Ive, the graphic design dept. at Apple... and of course to SJ for pushing for a "complete image concept".
I sell this advice daily, and if I come across as hostile, it's because I often (probably today even), will be confronted with people just not getting "it", and I'll be "flummoxed" trying to justify what they did to our concept on their own... and then fight even harder to get them back on track.
Again my apologies for "putting a face" to your argument, that was sadly that of one of my more difficult clients. What I posted here... is what I would have liked to have said to him personally! Naturally I didn't.. and I'm venting here.
On a positive note: a HUGE Thank You for being my virtual punching bag
OK. I'm gonna give ya the benefit of the doubt here, because you have helped other people discover the Mac. You're probably right in that many people have a difficult time differentiating in shades of gray... they need big colorful buttons and sorts... like "Fisher-Price XP".
So I'm curious: can you show us how YOU would design the GUI? Or, what are your favorite website designs?
Me personally:
1) Aqua needs to go, not only because it is dated, but because it just plain looks awkward as it is at the moment (the water bubble for instance looks like a screen failure).
2) all of that Faux-look stuff needs to definitely get off of "my desktop" one way or another!!! Notice I did not degrade it or the people that like it... it's just not for me!
3) Can we agree, that to please both sides of this "personal taste" argument, Apple or a third party like Onyx, MUST add the ability to "mod" or preference change the Lion OS to your liking?
PS. I've "converted" many hundreds more than you have, and to tell ya the truth, there are a number of them in memory that are suspect to having the same point of view as you do. So I better be prepared and careful when these arguments hit me. Thanks for the heads up
And this I can work with. You, having converted many people like I have are likely dealing with people in your immediate family who look to you as their own personal "tech support", just like I have. I've 12 people in my family using Macs, all above the age of 55 (yea baby-boomers). While the direction Lion is taking may be appealing to those working in graphics, or other visual industries, I'm dealing with an aunt who's 68 years old and intimidated by a trackpad, much less gestures. I've just gotten everyone used to the look of buttons in the OS, and now Apple decides that they are going to switch the look of them? That's great for you and I who don't have these issues and don't need significant visual cues, but what about the old people who are going to be looking for the scroll bar that has always been blue and is always right there on the right? Apple seems to have left the older folks behind here, and you know full well that it'll be you answering all of those phone calls. I'll be answering them too.
I agree with you that Onyx ought to allow people to vary things up. If you want to subdue everything, go for it. I also need to be able to walk my relatives through using their Mac's that I've insisted they get, without knowing that everything they are looking at is gray. Believe it or not, they need the "Fisher-Price" look as you put it. I have a grandma that's 89 years old who uses my old Powerbook for email and all things wikipedia. I had to magnify the screen just so she can see the icons (already full size) in the dock. You are likely running into the same issues with people you know. This is something I think needs to be addressed, and I'm not seeing anything encouraging in Lion. As it is, I'm not upgrading anyone in the family with Lion because the visual cues are too different for them.
While there are many on this site who see the death of Aqua as a good thing, I simply don't see it that way. It was a very useful tool for me to explain things, and when everything is the same color, it's not as easy for those who are older and don't see so well anymore to differentiate things like those of us with clear vision. I think Apple is being too aggressive with their elimination of color in the OS and I think it's going to adversely affect the older people far more than the youth who often times don't even pay attention to OS details in the first place.
My only concern is what if I don't know there is an option to scroll down if the blue bar isn't there in the first place?
You can disable the feature but I think it will be fine. The scrollbars aren't on in iOS and it's ok. Apple are adapting the system based on the fact people are used to scrolling now and all have input devices that allow scrolling. I'd expect the invisible scrollbar will popup when your mouse is in the right context.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
I like gray for the interface. I think all the color should be coming from the content not the interface. Grays and blacks are timeless. Psychologically they represent both power and submission. Whites represent purity and innocence. Bright colors are interpreted differently by different cultures and Mac is global so it makes sense to be neutral. I don't think you should worry about the interface becoming too monochromatic, it will feel natural after you get used to it. I have always set my desktop to gray since I do a lot of color work. That way I don't have any conflicts when designing.
I think so too, the neutral colours won't polarise people to the interface nearly as much so there's less inclination to need to add a theme to it. The brushed metal look really started to annoy me after a while to the point I installed Uno to get rid of it. Even the 3D dock and transparent menu are a bit much as well as the huge drop shadows. The aqua style looks really out of place now.
I think they should also default the menu to the white shaded version and remove the black line between the top of the window and menu - makes me keep thinking the window isn't far enough up, the dock back to the black 2D one and tone the shadows down a notch (not necessarily to the last levels but somewhere in between).
An interesting thing about the App Launcher is that it could actually allow the dock to be removed eventually as they can put the launcher icon in the menu. The Finder icon can move to the Spotlight icon and behave like a single window app and shortcuts would be controlled here as well as with the remaining menu space.
In defense of traditional gray tones in the GUI: in the old days, CRTs and IPS displays developed burn-in. Even today, if you switch fast between apps, you will be left with a perceptible a "color-cast or color-blotch" on the design or picture that you're color-correcting.
Also, unless your using "Application Frame" within Adobe products (or others), background pictures and colors seriously distract, and will influence color choice and correction. Sad to say, but we also work in color neutral environments, due to reflections, etc... so equating it to a hospital, is not so far off.
Last but not least... it is the professional design community that kept Apple alive, before SJ could come back and lead Apple into profit and it's consumer-product led strategy. We like to think that, while we have been left in our "clean-room" environments, to be replaced by the colorful opportunity of wide-spread consumer acceptance, we still are appreciated and catered to once in awhile. It's the little things... like the GUI... that we say "Thank You SJ"
You can disable the feature but I think it will be fine. The scrollbars aren't on in iOS and it's ok. Apple are adapting the system based on the fact people are used to scrolling now and all have input devices that allow scrolling. I'd expect the invisible scrollbar will popup when your mouse is in the right context.
I think so too, the neutral colours won't polarise people to the interface nearly as much so there's less inclination to need to add a theme to it. The brushed metal look really started to annoy me after a while to the point I installed Uno to get rid of it. Even the 3D dock and transparent menu are a bit much as well as the huge drop shadows. The aqua style looks really out of place now.
I think they should also default the menu to the white shaded version and remove the black line between the top of the window and menu - makes me keep thinking the window isn't far enough up, the dock back to the black 2D one and tone the shadows down a notch (not necessarily to the last levels but somewhere in between).
An interesting thing about the App Launcher is that it could actually allow the dock to be removed eventually as they can put the launcher icon in the menu. The Finder icon can move to the Spotlight icon and behave like a single window app and shortcuts would be controlled here as well as with the remaining menu space.
And I see things completely differently. If the OS turned into what you suggested, I'd be taking away my older relatives computers and handing them a pen, paper, and some stamps. I have a hard enough time dealing with everything become monochromatic to the point it has in Snow Leopard. Completely removing the Dock would be too much for far too many people to take. As it is, I doubt I'll find a use for App Launcher because I don't have that many apps on my Mac to begin with. The ones I do use are already in my Dock, so what would be the point of the App Launcher? Spotlight is entirely unused by me, and all of my family as far as I can tell. I dislike it because I can find everything I want through the Finder just as I always have.
If Apple keeps axing things they are going to alienate a lot of the older people who simply more than the minimalism you're suggesting they implement. As it is, my older relatives are struggling with Snow Leopard. I'll not be upgrading them further.
In defense of traditional gray tones in the GUI: in the old days, CRTs and IPS displays developed burn-in. Even today, if you switch fast between apps, you will be left with a perceptible a "color-cast or color-blotch" on the design or picture that you're color-correcting.
Also, unless your using "Application Frame" within Adobe products (or others), background pictures and colors seriously distract, and will influence color choice and correction. Sad to say, but we also work in color neutral environments, due to reflections, etc... so equating it to a hospital, is not so far off.
Last but not least... it is the professional design community that kept Apple alive, before SJ could come back and lead Apple into profit and it's consumer-product led strategy. We like to think that, while we have been left in our "clean-room" environments, to be replaced by the colorful opportunity of wide-spread consumer acceptance, we still are appreciated and catered to once in awhile. It's the little things... like the GUI... that we say "Thank You SJ"
Well the good news for you, and everyone else in your profession, is that you're getting your wish. I really do hope you enjoy using Lion. I may upgrade to it for specific features, but I won't admit that I like it and the way it looks.
And this I can work with. You, having converted many people like I have are likely dealing with people in your immediate family who look to you as their own personal "tech support", just like I have. I've 12 people in my family using Macs, all above the age of 55 (yea baby-boomers). While the direction Lion is taking may be appealing to those working in graphics, or other visual industries, I'm dealing with an aunt who's 68 years old and intimidated by a trackpad, much less gestures. I've just gotten everyone used to the look of buttons in the OS, and now Apple decides that they are going to switch the look of them? That's great for you and I who don't have these issues and don't need significant visual cues, but what about the old people who are going to be looking for the scroll bar that has always been blue and is always right there on the right? Apple seems to have left the older folks behind here, and you know full well that it'll be you answering all of those phone calls. I'll be answering them too.
I agree with you that Onyx ought to allow people to vary things up. If you want to subdue everything, go for it. I also need to be able to walk my relatives through using their Mac's that I've insisted they get, without knowing that everything they are looking at is gray. Believe it or not, they need the "Fisher-Price" look as you put it. I have a grandma that's 89 years old who uses my old Powerbook for email and all things wikipedia. I had to magnify the screen just so she can see the icons (already full size) in the dock. You are likely running into the same issues with people you know. This is something I think needs to be addressed, and I'm not seeing anything encouraging in Lion. As it is, I'm not upgrading anyone in the family with Lion because the visual cues are too different for them.
While there are many on this site who see the death of Aqua as a good thing, I simply don't see it that way. It was a very useful tool for me to explain things, and when everything is the same color, it's not as easy for those who are older and don't see so well anymore to differentiate things like those of us with clear vision. I think Apple is being too aggressive with their elimination of color in the OS and I think it's going to adversely affect the older people far more than the youth who often times don't even pay attention to OS details in the first place.
Nice post... and your insistence made me think about just those problems and situations heading my way.
While the majority of "my" users are 20's - mid-50s... I have noticed that many of my older clients are starting to do that "chicken-neck-to-the-glass" motion, more often. My personal ability of knowing the OS from the keyboard shortcuts for years, naturally doesn't help when I have to find the Menu or Button equivalent for them.
On both ends of the aforementioned age spectrum, I'm pointing everyone to the iPad since last year.
My theory there is: too old to take the time necessary to learn an OS.. and too young to need to. Touch is here to stay, and it will only get more powerful in time. I hope to see the day when we're all in a virtual Facetime chat room, or truly using a voice-transcriber discussing this stuff. Now wouldn't that be fun... or funny... or _____
...clip..Completely removing the Dock would be too much for far too many people to take. As it is, I doubt I'll find a use for App Launcher because I don't have that many apps on my Mac to begin with. The ones I do use are already in my Dock, so what would be the point of the App Launcher?
Oh... I don't know about that. The Dock being replaced with a full screen launcher looks like a winner for your users... at least some of them.
Quote:
Spotlight is entirely unused by me, and all of my family as far as I can tell. I dislike it because I can find everything I want through the Finder just as I always have.
Well, I'm not a huge fan of Spotlight either, but LaunchBar and DefaultFolders is installed on just about every machine I come into contact with (many of course at my suggestion and initial installation )... both of which make far better use of the meta data and Spotlight index than does Spotlight itself.
You may want to get used to the fact that in the future, the Finder as it is today will fade into the background and eventually disappear completely, as will the folder/filing structure that we have become used to. It does appear however, according to many a complaint at iOS, that a "folder system" is still wanted and needed in these transitional years.
However, I as well as many people that use the above utilities, have pretty much supplanted the Finder already. I haven't "drilled-down" into folders for years now, nor see or use the Dock for anything anymore. Once I have shown people how fast LaunchBar is to open anything, as long as you know what your attempting to find... they rarely open a Finder window or App the traditional way themselves... and minimize and hide the Dock themselves.
Fact is: I have personally witnessed how non-techies, people with 2 static-loaded left thumbs, and bad Karma to boot (my ex )... can pick up an iPhone or an iPad and use it immediately. Far easier than any tech device I have ever shown them in the past. What makes those devices so easy? NO FINDER and not having to know where you put things, and then later trying too find them. And it's coming to the desktop with Lion. Certainly not for me... but I can see "the others" getting comfortable with it really fast, just like the iDevices.
...I enjoyed the Dock not being that reflective thing...
Me too. A faux-3D element on the 2D desktop never made sense to me, particularly as I place the dock at the side where it doesn't get in the way. Fortunately a friendly developer feels the same way and has produced Mirage, a little freeware app that allows you to customise it away.
Well the good news for you, and everyone else in your profession, is that you're getting your wish. I really do hope you enjoy using Lion. I may upgrade to it for specific features, but I won't admit that I like it and the way it looks.
See my post above this one. Eventually, most of your family members (casual users) will not even have a Mac with Lion to worry about. Macs will continue to be bought by, and designed for the "pro" users, like you & me, and many other tech-involved industries. It's also why Windows won't just up and disappear.
However it is the "home and casual user" that will more than likely not own a PC at all. These devices will be all they need for "free time" computing.
Hint: take a look at how you're using your Mac today, and give some of the 3rd party devs/utilities a chance at how you could "possibly" work faster and better. You will be a "Post-PC-Desktop-Island-Tech-Support" in short time, so no need to show your family or friends anything on the desktop in the future. Just make it work for them on their i-Devices, as fast and easy as possible.. and quit worrying about the "pro GUI" of Lion. Grandma won't need it... the kids won't want it... and you'll get used to it
This looks very...Dull. Windows-ish. Seems like change for changes sake. I guess square buttons might have some teeny tiny bit of increased functionality, but ones that look so drab the blend in to the rest of the screen? Doesn't make sense.
And look at the window function buttons, they look so much more bland as well.
Actually, it looks like a modern version of OPENSTEP, not Windows.
It looks so dull and utilitarian now. Like Windows 2000.
This. I think 10.7 is very nice as it is. I understand how 10.2 had some issues with looking too much like a candybar these days, but there's no point in taking the life out of everything. I still get so effing annoyed when I use iTunes now and I have to stare a the new icons so dang long to figure out what they are.
People use color information, and I think it's foolish the remove that.
I have a problem with scrollbars appearing only when you move your mouse into the area. The issue is that it makes it less obvious that the zone has more data than it does. Apple needs to ensure that the user experience experts are doing their job, to ensure they don't reduce ease of use.
I think taking things too monotone can be problematic for some people. Color can make things look not so homogeneous but at the same time are a good visual reference. About the scrollbars, I totally agree with taking them away: they can ruin a UI very quickly when there's need for them to appear. I guess people will get used to the lack of omnipresent bars really quick as long there's visual feedback about existence of content like it's already being done on iOS.
Comments
You say I may be pleasantly surprised, by what might I ask? I've seen the same screen captures you have. What is it that I may find so pleasing? You're talking to someone that was elated when 10.0 came out and I got to experience aqua after 9.2. My first 600 MHz iBook (my first laptop ever) ran both OS's and I used them both. I loved the look of OS X. I loved seeing my friends who were Windows lovers (and some still are today) looking at how fantastic it looked on that rather low resolution screen.
Just move forward to Lion and I'm sitting here with an 8-core Mac Pro and a 30" Cinema Display with more than a HD resolution, and I'm watching the OS bleach out until it's nothing more than a bunch of gray buttons and disappearing sliders. And you suggest that I might be pleasantly surprised? What exactly would you have me be pleasantly surprised by? I'd really like to know. What is it that you find so awe inspiring with an OS that has all the appearance of the gravel in my driveway? I know there are people who are easily distracted, and I'm sorry for them, but I'm not one of those people who gets distracted. I see the OS I've supported from the very beginning becoming something that's not even interesting to look at. When an OS is no longer interesting to interact with, what is there really? What's the point? Gestures? Is that all I have to look forward to? I can't even manage to teach my parents how to use the gestures included in Snow Leopard. What's the point of even trying to get them to use the gestures with Lion?
Let's be blunt here and accept the fact that there are two kinds of users in the Mac Community. There are those people who want nothing. They want bare bones. These people exist in Terminal, and they think that even iTunes has far too much color for their world. They get distracted by everything around them, and they don't want anything between them and what they are doing. Then, at the opposite side of the spectrum, you have people like me. I don't use the Terminal, I enjoyed Aqua, I enjoyed the Dock not being that reflective thing, and I enjoyed the OS being so fantastically different visually from everything else out there that people were literally drawn to look at my screen and ask about all the things they were seeing.
I've converted over 40 colleagues alone to the Mac OS. Every single person in my immediate family has switched over to the Mac because of my insistence. I'm the one they all call when they can't figure out how to do something. What does it tell you as a fellow Mac user when you see someone who's been with the OS since it first turned to color, all of a sudden having very serious doubts about my love for Lion? I've seen the same screen shots you have. It's appallingly bland and doesn't appeal to the eye in even the slightest way, in my opinion. It seems that the people who want to see nothing, and experience the least possible from the OS have won. What I've seen of Lion is about as visually impressive as the inside of a hospital. It's apparently what you want in an OS. I may end up using it, but they'll never get me to say that I find it visually pleasing. I never thought I see the day when I'd lose faith in the Mac OS, but Lion has truly let down those of us looking for something more, not less, from our interaction with the OS from what I've seen so far. It's just depressing.
OK. I'm gonna give ya the benefit of the doubt here, because you have helped other people discover the Mac. You're probably right in that many people have a difficult time differentiating in shades of gray... they need big colorful buttons and sorts... like "Fisher-Price XP".
So I'm curious: can you show us how YOU would design the GUI? Or, what are your favorite website designs?
Me personally:
1) Aqua needs to go, not only because it is dated, but because it just plain looks awkward as it is at the moment (the water bubble for instance looks like a screen failure).
2) all of that Faux-look stuff needs to definitely get off of "my desktop" one way or another!!! Notice I did not degrade it or the people that like it... it's just not for me!
3) Can we agree, that to please both sides of this "personal taste" argument, Apple or a third party like Onyx, MUST add the ability to "mod" or preference change the Lion OS to your liking?
PS. I've "converted" many hundreds more than you have, and to tell ya the truth, there are a number of them in memory that are suspect to having the same point of view as you do. So I better be prepared and careful when these arguments hit me. Thanks for the heads up
I would be curious to know the amount if code it takes for each style. If the drab takes a third the lines of code for each element then you could have the reason right there.
Further possible reasons:
- The Aqua look was very hard to imitate in html.
- Also, Apple wants its apps to look nice for people used to Windows, adding subtleties to set it apart from Windows apps.
- Of course, successful interface elements in iOS will migrate back to MacOSX
One thing I abhor, and have seen in certain iOS apps is that plain buttons are sometimes used for drop-down menus. There should be enough differentiation between interface elements that have distinct functionality.These are the kind of posts that shutdown discussion and turn this into a discussion about people hating other people instead of what people like. Things would be much clearer if those that talked like a politician trying to bias people were prevented from posting.
Because I disagree with the way Lion is turning out, and that I'm not praising the design of the OS, it's color palette, and it's elimination of scrollbars, is reason enough to suggest that my opinion as a lifelong Mac user holds no merit here? There are plenty of people in this thread who are very happy with the direction the OS is taking, and they've made their points. When I asked what would make me pleasantly surprised by Lion, you suggest I not be allowed to post? I asked the questions, I validated my points, and gave a brief description of my long history with the Mac. I certainly didn't personally attack you, or mstone. I did take issue with what ThePixelDoc said because he was telling me to switch to Windows rather than voice my opposition for the way Lion is looking. I'm not going to be told to jump ship when I have a differing opinion of how the OS ought to look.
I've been with this site since 2003, and I've rarely voiced my opinion. I'm not in the habit of posting bitter diatribes about all things Mac. Most of the time I have no position regarding postings. With Lion, and all that I've seen posted thus far, I've taken exception with the way it looks. I like the look of Aqua (which is what the OP is about) and I think leaving it behind for the look of Lion is a misstep.
I agree.
Me too. The only thing that i very dislike are the new scrollbars, even in iOS!! I want to see them. F.e. i want to know how much is hidden of the document or view, with no scrollbars i can see that.
I'd never take advice from someone who has a gray screen by choice. You certainly aren't the rule, you're the exception. The iOS has one or two people buying Apple products because it's colorful. You must really hate that. I do have an iPhone and I won't give it up. It has far more color on the puny screen than I've seen in Lion so far.
As for your Windows comment, you're clearly mistaken, I've been with Mac since System 7. I've never owned a Windows PC, and the only ones I have interacted with have been at work where I was forced to use them. Of course I think you just enjoy being hostile toward people who don't see things your way. Good luck inspiring people with that.
Well considering that I'm an Art Director/Designer and consultant for many packaging firms, and that I have come into contact with 100's (1000's?) of Mac users since 1984, your assessment that I can't inspire people is wrong... since I/we indeed "insist" on 100-128rgb backgrounds. I will grant you, it is an industry specific preference.
Please see by my above post, that I am willing to meet you and the average user half-way, or your way even, if Apple or a 3rd party software gives us (hopefully) that choice.
My apologies that we designer-types are confronted with tastes and trends daily, and are paid well to influence people with our personal design sense and taste, to buy our clients products. The average person does not know why they can "perceive" what is expensive, what makes an item a "luxury item", or a why a simple curve, color, material... can influence their perception of an image or brand.
Apple is probably the only big company in the tech sector that truly understands this, thanks to Jonny Ive, the graphic design dept. at Apple... and of course to SJ for pushing for a "complete image concept".
I sell this advice daily, and if I come across as hostile, it's because I often (probably today even), will be confronted with people just not getting "it", and I'll be "flummoxed" trying to justify what they did to our concept on their own... and then fight even harder to get them back on track.
Again my apologies for "putting a face" to your argument, that was sadly that of one of my more difficult clients. What I posted here... is what I would have liked to have said to him personally! Naturally I didn't.. and I'm venting here.
On a positive note: a HUGE Thank You for being my virtual punching bag
OK. I'm gonna give ya the benefit of the doubt here, because you have helped other people discover the Mac. You're probably right in that many people have a difficult time differentiating in shades of gray... they need big colorful buttons and sorts... like "Fisher-Price XP".
So I'm curious: can you show us how YOU would design the GUI? Or, what are your favorite website designs?
Me personally:
1) Aqua needs to go, not only because it is dated, but because it just plain looks awkward as it is at the moment (the water bubble for instance looks like a screen failure).
2) all of that Faux-look stuff needs to definitely get off of "my desktop" one way or another!!! Notice I did not degrade it or the people that like it... it's just not for me!
3) Can we agree, that to please both sides of this "personal taste" argument, Apple or a third party like Onyx, MUST add the ability to "mod" or preference change the Lion OS to your liking?
PS. I've "converted" many hundreds more than you have, and to tell ya the truth, there are a number of them in memory that are suspect to having the same point of view as you do. So I better be prepared and careful when these arguments hit me. Thanks for the heads up
And this I can work with. You, having converted many people like I have are likely dealing with people in your immediate family who look to you as their own personal "tech support", just like I have. I've 12 people in my family using Macs, all above the age of 55 (yea baby-boomers). While the direction Lion is taking may be appealing to those working in graphics, or other visual industries, I'm dealing with an aunt who's 68 years old and intimidated by a trackpad, much less gestures. I've just gotten everyone used to the look of buttons in the OS, and now Apple decides that they are going to switch the look of them? That's great for you and I who don't have these issues and don't need significant visual cues, but what about the old people who are going to be looking for the scroll bar that has always been blue and is always right there on the right? Apple seems to have left the older folks behind here, and you know full well that it'll be you answering all of those phone calls. I'll be answering them too.
I agree with you that Onyx ought to allow people to vary things up. If you want to subdue everything, go for it. I also need to be able to walk my relatives through using their Mac's that I've insisted they get, without knowing that everything they are looking at is gray. Believe it or not, they need the "Fisher-Price" look as you put it. I have a grandma that's 89 years old who uses my old Powerbook for email and all things wikipedia. I had to magnify the screen just so she can see the icons (already full size) in the dock. You are likely running into the same issues with people you know. This is something I think needs to be addressed, and I'm not seeing anything encouraging in Lion. As it is, I'm not upgrading anyone in the family with Lion because the visual cues are too different for them.
While there are many on this site who see the death of Aqua as a good thing, I simply don't see it that way. It was a very useful tool for me to explain things, and when everything is the same color, it's not as easy for those who are older and don't see so well anymore to differentiate things like those of us with clear vision. I think Apple is being too aggressive with their elimination of color in the OS and I think it's going to adversely affect the older people far more than the youth who often times don't even pay attention to OS details in the first place.
Ah yes, there is a curmudgeon inside all of us and yours just slipped out. Better if we were still using OS7 graphics, eh?
Apparently Apple thinks so, with all the flat. dull colored folders in OS 10.5. They do remind me of System 7.
My only concern is what if I don't know there is an option to scroll down if the blue bar isn't there in the first place?
You can disable the feature but I think it will be fine. The scrollbars aren't on in iOS and it's ok. Apple are adapting the system based on the fact people are used to scrolling now and all have input devices that allow scrolling. I'd expect the invisible scrollbar will popup when your mouse is in the right context.
I like gray for the interface. I think all the color should be coming from the content not the interface. Grays and blacks are timeless. Psychologically they represent both power and submission. Whites represent purity and innocence. Bright colors are interpreted differently by different cultures and Mac is global so it makes sense to be neutral. I don't think you should worry about the interface becoming too monochromatic, it will feel natural after you get used to it. I have always set my desktop to gray since I do a lot of color work. That way I don't have any conflicts when designing.
I think so too, the neutral colours won't polarise people to the interface nearly as much so there's less inclination to need to add a theme to it. The brushed metal look really started to annoy me after a while to the point I installed Uno to get rid of it. Even the 3D dock and transparent menu are a bit much as well as the huge drop shadows. The aqua style looks really out of place now.
I think they should also default the menu to the white shaded version and remove the black line between the top of the window and menu - makes me keep thinking the window isn't far enough up, the dock back to the black 2D one and tone the shadows down a notch (not necessarily to the last levels but somewhere in between).
An interesting thing about the App Launcher is that it could actually allow the dock to be removed eventually as they can put the launcher icon in the menu. The Finder icon can move to the Spotlight icon and behave like a single window app and shortcuts would be controlled here as well as with the remaining menu space.
In defense of traditional gray tones in the GUI: in the old days, CRTs and IPS displays developed burn-in. Even today, if you switch fast between apps, you will be left with a perceptible a "color-cast or color-blotch" on the design or picture that you're color-correcting.
Also, unless your using "Application Frame" within Adobe products (or others), background pictures and colors seriously distract, and will influence color choice and correction. Sad to say, but we also work in color neutral environments, due to reflections, etc... so equating it to a hospital, is not so far off.
Last but not least... it is the professional design community that kept Apple alive, before SJ could come back and lead Apple into profit and it's consumer-product led strategy. We like to think that, while we have been left in our "clean-room" environments, to be replaced by the colorful opportunity of wide-spread consumer acceptance, we still are appreciated and catered to once in awhile. It's the little things... like the GUI... that we say "Thank You SJ"
You can disable the feature but I think it will be fine. The scrollbars aren't on in iOS and it's ok. Apple are adapting the system based on the fact people are used to scrolling now and all have input devices that allow scrolling. I'd expect the invisible scrollbar will popup when your mouse is in the right context.
I think so too, the neutral colours won't polarise people to the interface nearly as much so there's less inclination to need to add a theme to it. The brushed metal look really started to annoy me after a while to the point I installed Uno to get rid of it. Even the 3D dock and transparent menu are a bit much as well as the huge drop shadows. The aqua style looks really out of place now.
I think they should also default the menu to the white shaded version and remove the black line between the top of the window and menu - makes me keep thinking the window isn't far enough up, the dock back to the black 2D one and tone the shadows down a notch (not necessarily to the last levels but somewhere in between).
An interesting thing about the App Launcher is that it could actually allow the dock to be removed eventually as they can put the launcher icon in the menu. The Finder icon can move to the Spotlight icon and behave like a single window app and shortcuts would be controlled here as well as with the remaining menu space.
And I see things completely differently. If the OS turned into what you suggested, I'd be taking away my older relatives computers and handing them a pen, paper, and some stamps. I have a hard enough time dealing with everything become monochromatic to the point it has in Snow Leopard. Completely removing the Dock would be too much for far too many people to take. As it is, I doubt I'll find a use for App Launcher because I don't have that many apps on my Mac to begin with. The ones I do use are already in my Dock, so what would be the point of the App Launcher? Spotlight is entirely unused by me, and all of my family as far as I can tell. I dislike it because I can find everything I want through the Finder just as I always have.
If Apple keeps axing things they are going to alienate a lot of the older people who simply more than the minimalism you're suggesting they implement. As it is, my older relatives are struggling with Snow Leopard. I'll not be upgrading them further.
@ "Mr" Brian Green
In defense of traditional gray tones in the GUI: in the old days, CRTs and IPS displays developed burn-in. Even today, if you switch fast between apps, you will be left with a perceptible a "color-cast or color-blotch" on the design or picture that you're color-correcting.
Also, unless your using "Application Frame" within Adobe products (or others), background pictures and colors seriously distract, and will influence color choice and correction. Sad to say, but we also work in color neutral environments, due to reflections, etc... so equating it to a hospital, is not so far off.
Last but not least... it is the professional design community that kept Apple alive, before SJ could come back and lead Apple into profit and it's consumer-product led strategy. We like to think that, while we have been left in our "clean-room" environments, to be replaced by the colorful opportunity of wide-spread consumer acceptance, we still are appreciated and catered to once in awhile. It's the little things... like the GUI... that we say "Thank You SJ"
Well the good news for you, and everyone else in your profession, is that you're getting your wish. I really do hope you enjoy using Lion. I may upgrade to it for specific features, but I won't admit that I like it and the way it looks.
And this I can work with. You, having converted many people like I have are likely dealing with people in your immediate family who look to you as their own personal "tech support", just like I have. I've 12 people in my family using Macs, all above the age of 55 (yea baby-boomers). While the direction Lion is taking may be appealing to those working in graphics, or other visual industries, I'm dealing with an aunt who's 68 years old and intimidated by a trackpad, much less gestures. I've just gotten everyone used to the look of buttons in the OS, and now Apple decides that they are going to switch the look of them? That's great for you and I who don't have these issues and don't need significant visual cues, but what about the old people who are going to be looking for the scroll bar that has always been blue and is always right there on the right? Apple seems to have left the older folks behind here, and you know full well that it'll be you answering all of those phone calls. I'll be answering them too.
I agree with you that Onyx ought to allow people to vary things up. If you want to subdue everything, go for it. I also need to be able to walk my relatives through using their Mac's that I've insisted they get, without knowing that everything they are looking at is gray. Believe it or not, they need the "Fisher-Price" look as you put it. I have a grandma that's 89 years old who uses my old Powerbook for email and all things wikipedia. I had to magnify the screen just so she can see the icons (already full size) in the dock. You are likely running into the same issues with people you know. This is something I think needs to be addressed, and I'm not seeing anything encouraging in Lion. As it is, I'm not upgrading anyone in the family with Lion because the visual cues are too different for them.
While there are many on this site who see the death of Aqua as a good thing, I simply don't see it that way. It was a very useful tool for me to explain things, and when everything is the same color, it's not as easy for those who are older and don't see so well anymore to differentiate things like those of us with clear vision. I think Apple is being too aggressive with their elimination of color in the OS and I think it's going to adversely affect the older people far more than the youth who often times don't even pay attention to OS details in the first place.
Nice post... and your insistence made me think about just those problems and situations heading my way.
While the majority of "my" users are 20's - mid-50s... I have noticed that many of my older clients are starting to do that "chicken-neck-to-the-glass" motion, more often. My personal ability of knowing the OS from the keyboard shortcuts for years, naturally doesn't help when I have to find the Menu or Button equivalent for them.
On both ends of the aforementioned age spectrum, I'm pointing everyone to the iPad since last year.
My theory there is: too old to take the time necessary to learn an OS.. and too young to need to. Touch is here to stay, and it will only get more powerful in time. I hope to see the day when we're all in a virtual Facetime chat room, or truly using a voice-transcriber discussing this stuff. Now wouldn't that be fun... or funny... or _____
...clip..Completely removing the Dock would be too much for far too many people to take. As it is, I doubt I'll find a use for App Launcher because I don't have that many apps on my Mac to begin with. The ones I do use are already in my Dock, so what would be the point of the App Launcher?
Oh... I don't know about that. The Dock being replaced with a full screen launcher looks like a winner for your users... at least some of them.
Spotlight is entirely unused by me, and all of my family as far as I can tell. I dislike it because I can find everything I want through the Finder just as I always have.
Well, I'm not a huge fan of Spotlight either, but LaunchBar and DefaultFolders is installed on just about every machine I come into contact with (many of course at my suggestion and initial installation
You may want to get used to the fact that in the future, the Finder as it is today will fade into the background and eventually disappear completely, as will the folder/filing structure that we have become used to. It does appear however, according to many a complaint at iOS, that a "folder system" is still wanted and needed in these transitional years.
However, I as well as many people that use the above utilities, have pretty much supplanted the Finder already. I haven't "drilled-down" into folders for years now, nor see or use the Dock for anything anymore. Once I have shown people how fast LaunchBar is to open anything, as long as you know what your attempting to find... they rarely open a Finder window or App the traditional way themselves... and minimize and hide the Dock themselves.
Fact is: I have personally witnessed how non-techies, people with 2 static-loaded left thumbs, and bad Karma to boot (my ex
...I enjoyed the Dock not being that reflective thing...
Me too. A faux-3D element on the 2D desktop never made sense to me, particularly as I place the dock at the side where it doesn't get in the way. Fortunately a friendly developer feels the same way and has produced Mirage, a little freeware app that allows you to customise it away.
Well the good news for you, and everyone else in your profession, is that you're getting your wish. I really do hope you enjoy using Lion. I may upgrade to it for specific features, but I won't admit that I like it and the way it looks.
See my post above this one. Eventually, most of your family members (casual users) will not even have a Mac with Lion to worry about. Macs will continue to be bought by, and designed for the "pro" users, like you & me, and many other tech-involved industries. It's also why Windows won't just up and disappear.
However it is the "home and casual user" that will more than likely not own a PC at all. These devices will be all they need for "free time" computing.
Hint: take a look at how you're using your Mac today, and give some of the 3rd party devs/utilities a chance at how you could "possibly" work faster and better. You will be a "Post-PC-Desktop-Island-Tech-Support" in short time, so no need to show your family or friends anything on the desktop in the future. Just make it work for them on their i-Devices, as fast and easy as possible.. and quit worrying about the "pro GUI" of Lion. Grandma won't need it... the kids won't want it... and you'll get used to it
This looks very...Dull. Windows-ish. Seems like change for changes sake. I guess square buttons might have some teeny tiny bit of increased functionality, but ones that look so drab the blend in to the rest of the screen? Doesn't make sense.
And look at the window function buttons, they look so much more bland as well.
Actually, it looks like a modern version of OPENSTEP, not Windows.
It looks so dull and utilitarian now. Like Windows 2000.
This. I think 10.7 is very nice as it is. I understand how 10.2 had some issues with looking too much like a candybar these days, but there's no point in taking the life out of everything. I still get so effing annoyed when I use iTunes now and I have to stare a the new icons so dang long to figure out what they are.
People use color information, and I think it's foolish the remove that.
Just my two cents...