My only concern is what if I don't know there is an option to scroll down if the blue bar isn't there in the first place?
Yes, indeed. That brings a valid point. I think Apple is really making huge mistakes here that raise eyebrows and make you wonder if they lost their mojo.
They seem to be simply blindly (almost literally) carrying over designs and look and feel from a limited 4'' device over onto the desktop without any regard how well do those scale.
Besides small 4'' touch screens are extremely limited and the UI that is adjusted to be usable functional there does not necessarily make sense on a 30'' desktop that is driven differently.
Unfortunately, it always happens. Ah well, Apple had a good decade, they can only go down from here.
I'm really taken aback, so excuse my 3rd post in a row.
Did anyone notice the divider dot, that let's you know that you can drag the divider? It used to have gloss that made it jump off the sheet, but now without gloss it doesn't even look like a dot or circle, it looks like partially cut off flat oval at best. WTF.
Is this Apple? Seriously? Are they really trying to have a "Vista" of their own?
Aqua looks quite dated and the round cornered boxes look much nicer.
I'm seriously tempted to buy a Developer license simply to get my hands on and play.
I've seen it on BitTorrent via XTorrent if you are of that persuasion. I have a DL for a different reason and was a bit underwhealmed by Lion. The disappearing bars were annoyingly slow, I liked clicking on-screen arrows for moving through pages, the iOS like app screen felt like a shareware add-on and I am not sure whether i can make itreplace the regular desktop. The new desktop picture is nice, but the new iCal is Ugly.
I think the problem i am having is that I was expecting something exciting with updated features, and Lion feels like a very minimalist shell with barely updated applications.. In hindsight, minimalist is probably a good thing.
Overstated much? I like the look. I think too much aqua is dated. Also, I always felt the round buttons looked ironically clunky. I like the rounded corners much better.
I engage in hyperbole to make a point. Guilty as charged on that.
Everything regarding the look of Lion is a matter of opinion. You like the changes, I think they're a huge step backward. Neither of us is right; neither of us is wrong.
And I see things completely differently. If the OS turned into what you suggested, I'd be taking away my older relatives computers and handing them a pen, paper, and some stamps. I have a hard enough time dealing with everything become monochromatic to the point it has in Snow Leopard. Completely removing the Dock would be too much for far too many people to take. As it is, I doubt I'll find a use for App Launcher because I don't have that many apps on my Mac to begin with. The ones I do use are already in my Dock, so what would be the point of the App Launcher? Spotlight is entirely unused by me, and all of my family as far as I can tell. I dislike it because I can find everything I want through the Finder just as I always have.
If Apple keeps axing things they are going to alienate a lot of the older people who simply more than the minimalism you're suggesting they implement. As it is, my older relatives are struggling with Snow Leopard. I'll not be upgrading them further.
So you just sit and look at the UI all day? Don't ya have anything appealing to look at of your own, like pictures or videos or somethin'?
So we get it: minimalism is not your thing. How did ya get attracted to Mac and Apple in the first place?
Certainly their ads, marketing, videos, etc. didn't appeal to you in the least. I mean, B/W Apple logo reversed on B or W background.... videos and ads with NOTHING distracting in the background, products that are "pure design" and the polar opposite of a modded-out Alienware machine...
...are you really one of those people that chose Apple only because it was "cool"? Because obviously you do not subscribe to the "total minimalist aesthetic" that defines the image and brand that is Apple.
Windows 7 will fill everyones life with so much color that people have to use lion for years to remove the stains
I'm pretty happy with these cosmetic changes. Perhaps the idea is to de-emphasize the controls so you can focus on the content.
What bugs me most is how Apple think it's clever to hide controls, but then not give you a way to discover the features of an app. They compound this by not having a keyboard equivalent for every mouse action and a mouse action for every keyboard action. So finding a feature you'd like to have, or browsing what features the app has, means waving the mouse around, pressing random control keys, etc, hoping something will appear.
Agreed. The leather, torn pages, and wood have no place in computer GUI.
Likewise, I love my BMW, but fake wood grain accents are just tacky. Didn't wood on coaches go out of style somewhere around the Elizabethan era? You certainly don't see them on Ferrari.
But you know they do focus groups on this stuff and the general population apparently still thinks that fake crap looks deluxe.
Totally agree. When I design UIs on our company system there's a constant call (usually from salespeople) to have a flashier interface, but having brightly coloured controls battling for attention with the content just makes it harder to draw the user's attention to something which is actually important.
I definitely like a modern UI with a bit of eye candy when used in a subtle way - I actually think Windows 7 looks great, at least when used with a restrained colour on the transparent bits. A lot nicer than that awful blue and green interface in XP.
These tweaks are in keeping with the general theme in Lion - with the full screen layouts and lack of scrollbars - in letting the user focus on their content rather than the OS itself, and I like that. There's a bit of inconsistency running through the interface in Snow Leopard and I think Lion will look a lot tidier.
Bear in mind aswell that these are just beta releases, Apple could yet have changes in store for the final version.
Apple is taking this "minimalist" approach too far. There is a huge difference between non-obtrusive and minimalist.
iPhone UI needs to be minimalist because there's no space for anything more complex than that. But on a desktop interface, too simple a design will make it less effecient. I sincerely hope Apple will allow people to switch between UI flavors. Otherwise, people may start to think Windows 7 interface is more attractive.
One thing they have to be careful of is using shading that is so subtle that tilting the screen on a macbook means the color disappears. This happens to me in iCal, where I have to tilt the glossy screen to avoid lights and then I can't tell which day has the focus.
There was a time when Apple needed to sell OSX to the masses. Now that they are around 15% marketshare and growing, that is no longer the case. The GUI can take a back seat now, and let users focus on the task at hand.
I actually think that Windows' excessive use of color looks gaudy. I'm glad to see Apple going the other direction.
Having come from using Lion, I must say that I prefer it's downplayed version of aqua and the scroll bars much better than Snow Leopard's.
Quote:
I have a problem with scrollbars appearing only when you move your mouse into the area. The issue is that it makes it less obvious that the zone has more data than it does. Apple needs to ensure that the user experience experts are doing their job, to ensure they don't reduce ease of use.
This really isn't much of a problem. Like iOS, whenever you go into a list that extends beyond the viewable bounds, the scroll bars appear to indicate that there is an area to scroll. However, unlike iOS, the scroll bars disappear only when you move the pointer out of the list or page, or you leave it idle for a coupe of seconds. I did my best to capture the beheviour in the video below. Sorry about the clipping, Finder didn't like to be recorded, everything moves a lot smoother.
You can see how the scroll bars don't appear unless you are currently scrolling, even if you hover over the space where they are hidden. This is because they overlay the content (and in a sense, take up no space, unlike what someone said in another comment).
For those concerned about not being able to see where you are in a list or page without scrolling, I can say that this hasn't been a problem for me. Whenever I am looking to see where I am at in a list, I tend to do it whenever I am already in the process of scrolling. I don't know if this is normal behavior or not, but I noticed that's how I do it.
I've been using Lion for a few weeks now and I must sat that I do prefer the new scroll bars over the old, even though I wasn't too thrilled about them when I started. For those who don't like it or are unwilling to even try them out, there's always an option in System Preferences:
Are you seriously incapable of extrapolating the font list example to other situations? Do you know exactly how long every document, PDF, web page you will ever open is? How about where you are in a zoomed in image or large spreadsheet? Am I in the upper-left or lower-right corner of the picture? Now I'll have to stop my editing work and move the mouse over to the edge of the screen so the scroll bars appear so I can find out where I am.
There is a setting to keep the bar there permanently, but as for arrows, they're gone. I'd like to have an option to return them (but then again, I set my computer to have both arrows on both sides of the computer, 2 on top, 2 on the bottom.
It seems that both sides have valid points. I actually like the aqua look, but I may end up liking the lion look once I use it enough. I also have to admit, that although I believe I like Aqua more, I do find myself liking Apple Insider's muted web look. It is pleasing and without many distractions (except for all of the Xoom advertisements.) It would be really nice if Apple allowed us to have the option of keeping the Aqua theme in System Preference if one desires it, but I see Apple's point. They do tend to have a forward vision and I don't think that they will give us that option. I'm just reminding when I occasionally have to use a Windows (XP) machine and I turn on the classic look. YUK.
Really? Personally I think Lion is starting to look a lot more like Windows.
Then again I've never used OpenStep, so I might not be the best judge.
First here is OpenStep...
And here is a Snow Leopard/Lion/Win7 comparrison.
What does anyone else think? Do the changes make Lion look more like Windows or OPENSTEP?
Wow, that's interesting. I use Windows 7 a lot (I have it on Boot Camp), and I print from both OS X and Windows, since one of my printers doesn't work with OS X. You'd think I'd have noticed that by now.
See my post above this one. Eventually, most of your family members (casual users) will not even have a Mac with Lion to worry about. Macs will continue to be bought by, and designed for the "pro" users, like you & me, and many other tech-involved industries. It's also why Windows won't just up and disappear.
However it is the "home and casual user" that will more than likely not own a PC at all. These devices will be all they need for "free time" computing.
Hint: take a look at how you're using your Mac today, and give some of the 3rd party devs/utilities a chance at how you could "possibly" work faster and better. You will be a "Post-PC-Desktop-Island-Tech-Support" in short time, so no need to show your family or friends anything on the desktop in the future. Just make it work for them on their i-Devices, as fast and easy as possible.. and quit worrying about the "pro GUI" of Lion. Grandma won't need it... the kids won't want it... and you'll get used to it
Admittedly, Lion is a transition toward a desktop-not-required future. We're still living in the present, however, and those of us who are the family and friend "tech support" are facing easy of use issues with this release. The iPad is something I'll be working to get everyone transitioned to, but it's going to take time, and I have yet to find that tree that grows money.
The iPad has limitations regarding data storage, and still must be synced with a Mac in order to be updated. I stopped by my Mom's iMac this morning and decided to drop real world numbers into this Lion discussion. If we're going to be talking about transitioning these users to the iOS, then we're going to have to deal with their real world usage (top level only):
Applications = 53 Items, 4.61 GB used
Documents = 77 Items, 4.19 GB used
Movies = 78 Items, 448.21 GB used
Music = 3 Items, 381.89 GB used
Pictures = 244 Items, 158 GB used
And that's just from a grandma who belongs to a garden club (and composes monthly newsletters in Pages) and has a couple grand kids (she's the typical "snap-happy" grandma who loves her digital camera, and fills it routinely). All respect to Apple for the iOS, but it's not at a level to handle her usage right now in a solo capacity. I'm going to be replacing her iMac in the next few years with a new 24" model because she needs that big screen.
When it comes to Lion, I'm sure that you and I can handle anything they throw at us. My concerns are for those people who use technology for interaction with family and friends any don't know the first thing about keyboard short cuts, their fingers don't work as well as ours for gestures, and their eyesight leaves a lot to be desired. With the color and design changes to Lion, I'm very concerned that Snow Leopard will be the end of the road for those users. If iOS devices are going to be the space they dwell in, then these devices are going to have to meet their needs and I don't see that happening with real world capacity restraints. Lion may be making some people's lives easier, but it's also going to make a lot of people's lives harder and I don't think Apple is appropriately addressing this demographic from all that I've seen in their screen shots.
Comments
My only concern is what if I don't know there is an option to scroll down if the blue bar isn't there in the first place?
Yes, indeed. That brings a valid point. I think Apple is really making huge mistakes here that raise eyebrows and make you wonder if they lost their mojo.
They seem to be simply blindly (almost literally) carrying over designs and look and feel from a limited 4'' device over onto the desktop without any regard how well do those scale.
Besides small 4'' touch screens are extremely limited and the UI that is adjusted to be usable functional there does not necessarily make sense on a 30'' desktop that is driven differently.
Unfortunately, it always happens. Ah well, Apple had a good decade, they can only go down from here.
Did anyone notice the divider dot, that let's you know that you can drag the divider? It used to have gloss that made it jump off the sheet, but now without gloss it doesn't even look like a dot or circle, it looks like partially cut off flat oval at best. WTF.
Is this Apple? Seriously? Are they really trying to have a "Vista" of their own?
I have to say I really like the new look.
Aqua looks quite dated and the round cornered boxes look much nicer.
I'm seriously tempted to buy a Developer license simply to get my hands on and play.
I've seen it on BitTorrent via XTorrent if you are of that persuasion. I have a DL for a different reason and was a bit underwhealmed by Lion. The disappearing bars were annoyingly slow, I liked clicking on-screen arrows for moving through pages, the iOS like app screen felt like a shareware add-on and I am not sure whether i can make itreplace the regular desktop. The new desktop picture is nice, but the new iCal is Ugly.
I think the problem i am having is that I was expecting something exciting with updated features, and Lion feels like a very minimalist shell with barely updated applications.. In hindsight, minimalist is probably a good thing.
Overstated much? I like the look. I think too much aqua is dated. Also, I always felt the round buttons looked ironically clunky. I like the rounded corners much better.
I engage in hyperbole to make a point. Guilty as charged on that.
Everything regarding the look of Lion is a matter of opinion. You like the changes, I think they're a huge step backward. Neither of us is right; neither of us is wrong.
And I see things completely differently. If the OS turned into what you suggested, I'd be taking away my older relatives computers and handing them a pen, paper, and some stamps. I have a hard enough time dealing with everything become monochromatic to the point it has in Snow Leopard. Completely removing the Dock would be too much for far too many people to take. As it is, I doubt I'll find a use for App Launcher because I don't have that many apps on my Mac to begin with. The ones I do use are already in my Dock, so what would be the point of the App Launcher? Spotlight is entirely unused by me, and all of my family as far as I can tell. I dislike it because I can find everything I want through the Finder just as I always have.
If Apple keeps axing things they are going to alienate a lot of the older people who simply more than the minimalism you're suggesting they implement. As it is, my older relatives are struggling with Snow Leopard. I'll not be upgrading them further.
You designed this, didn't you. Nice!
The rectangle buttons look more like OS 9 buttons than Apple OS X buttons. So much for thinking different.
We often hear that fashion is making rounds. It is probably this what's happening here. But certainly it did not happen with Windows 7.
So you just sit and look at the UI all day? Don't ya have anything appealing to look at of your own, like pictures or videos or somethin'?
So we get it: minimalism is not your thing. How did ya get attracted to Mac and Apple in the first place?
Certainly their ads, marketing, videos, etc. didn't appeal to you in the least. I mean, B/W Apple logo reversed on B or W background.... videos and ads with NOTHING distracting in the background, products that are "pure design" and the polar opposite of a modded-out Alienware machine...
...are you really one of those people that chose Apple only because it was "cool"? Because obviously you do not subscribe to the "total minimalist aesthetic" that defines the image and brand that is Apple.
Windows 7 will fill everyones life with so much color that people have to use lion for years to remove the stains
It looks so dull and utilitarian now. Like Windows 2000.
Yes. The new look is boring, dull and bland.
There should be an option to keep the colour. The new look is soooooooooo backward.
What bugs me most is how Apple think it's clever to hide controls, but then not give you a way to discover the features of an app. They compound this by not having a keyboard equivalent for every mouse action and a mouse action for every keyboard action. So finding a feature you'd like to have, or browsing what features the app has, means waving the mouse around, pressing random control keys, etc, hoping something will appear.
Agreed. The leather, torn pages, and wood have no place in computer GUI.
Likewise, I love my BMW, but fake wood grain accents are just tacky. Didn't wood on coaches go out of style somewhere around the Elizabethan era? You certainly don't see them on Ferrari.
But you know they do focus groups on this stuff and the general population apparently still thinks that fake crap looks deluxe.
Totally agree. When I design UIs on our company system there's a constant call (usually from salespeople) to have a flashier interface, but having brightly coloured controls battling for attention with the content just makes it harder to draw the user's attention to something which is actually important.
I definitely like a modern UI with a bit of eye candy when used in a subtle way - I actually think Windows 7 looks great, at least when used with a restrained colour on the transparent bits. A lot nicer than that awful blue and green interface in XP.
These tweaks are in keeping with the general theme in Lion - with the full screen layouts and lack of scrollbars - in letting the user focus on their content rather than the OS itself, and I like that. There's a bit of inconsistency running through the interface in Snow Leopard and I think Lion will look a lot tidier.
Bear in mind aswell that these are just beta releases, Apple could yet have changes in store for the final version.
iPhone UI needs to be minimalist because there's no space for anything more complex than that. But on a desktop interface, too simple a design will make it less effecient. I sincerely hope Apple will allow people to switch between UI flavors. Otherwise, people may start to think Windows 7 interface is more attractive.
There was a time when Apple needed to sell OSX to the masses. Now that they are around 15% marketshare and growing, that is no longer the case. The GUI can take a back seat now, and let users focus on the task at hand.
I actually think that Windows' excessive use of color looks gaudy. I'm glad to see Apple going the other direction.
I have a problem with scrollbars appearing only when you move your mouse into the area. The issue is that it makes it less obvious that the zone has more data than it does. Apple needs to ensure that the user experience experts are doing their job, to ensure they don't reduce ease of use.
This really isn't much of a problem. Like iOS, whenever you go into a list that extends beyond the viewable bounds, the scroll bars appear to indicate that there is an area to scroll. However, unlike iOS, the scroll bars disappear only when you move the pointer out of the list or page, or you leave it idle for a coupe of seconds. I did my best to capture the beheviour in the video below. Sorry about the clipping, Finder didn't like to be recorded, everything moves a lot smoother.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIcD7VZbxUk
You can see how the scroll bars don't appear unless you are currently scrolling, even if you hover over the space where they are hidden. This is because they overlay the content (and in a sense, take up no space, unlike what someone said in another comment).
For those concerned about not being able to see where you are in a list or page without scrolling, I can say that this hasn't been a problem for me. Whenever I am looking to see where I am at in a list, I tend to do it whenever I am already in the process of scrolling. I don't know if this is normal behavior or not, but I noticed that's how I do it.
I've been using Lion for a few weeks now and I must sat that I do prefer the new scroll bars over the old, even though I wasn't too thrilled about them when I started. For those who don't like it or are unwilling to even try them out, there's always an option in System Preferences:
Actually, it looks like a modern version of OPENSTEP, not Windows.
Really? Personally I think Lion is starting to look a lot more like Windows.
Then again I've never used OpenStep, so I might not be the best judge.
First here is OpenStep...
And here is a Snow Leopard/Lion comparrison with a mock up of what the same dialog would look like in Win7.
What does anyone else think? Do the changes make Lion look more like Windows or OPENSTEP?
Are you seriously incapable of extrapolating the font list example to other situations? Do you know exactly how long every document, PDF, web page you will ever open is? How about where you are in a zoomed in image or large spreadsheet? Am I in the upper-left or lower-right corner of the picture? Now I'll have to stop my editing work and move the mouse over to the edge of the screen so the scroll bars appear so I can find out where I am.
There is a setting to keep the bar there permanently, but as for arrows, they're gone. I'd like to have an option to return them (but then again, I set my computer to have both arrows on both sides of the computer, 2 on top, 2 on the bottom.
AnonMac
Really? Personally I think Lion is starting to look a lot more like Windows.
Then again I've never used OpenStep, so I might not be the best judge.
First here is OpenStep...
And here is a Snow Leopard/Lion/Win7 comparrison.
What does anyone else think? Do the changes make Lion look more like Windows or OPENSTEP?
Wow, that's interesting. I use Windows 7 a lot (I have it on Boot Camp), and I print from both OS X and Windows, since one of my printers doesn't work with OS X. You'd think I'd have noticed that by now.
See my post above this one. Eventually, most of your family members (casual users) will not even have a Mac with Lion to worry about. Macs will continue to be bought by, and designed for the "pro" users, like you & me, and many other tech-involved industries. It's also why Windows won't just up and disappear.
However it is the "home and casual user" that will more than likely not own a PC at all. These devices will be all they need for "free time" computing.
Hint: take a look at how you're using your Mac today, and give some of the 3rd party devs/utilities a chance at how you could "possibly" work faster and better. You will be a "Post-PC-Desktop-Island-Tech-Support" in short time, so no need to show your family or friends anything on the desktop in the future. Just make it work for them on their i-Devices, as fast and easy as possible.. and quit worrying about the "pro GUI" of Lion. Grandma won't need it... the kids won't want it... and you'll get used to it
Admittedly, Lion is a transition toward a desktop-not-required future. We're still living in the present, however, and those of us who are the family and friend "tech support" are facing easy of use issues with this release. The iPad is something I'll be working to get everyone transitioned to, but it's going to take time, and I have yet to find that tree that grows money.
The iPad has limitations regarding data storage, and still must be synced with a Mac in order to be updated. I stopped by my Mom's iMac this morning and decided to drop real world numbers into this Lion discussion. If we're going to be talking about transitioning these users to the iOS, then we're going to have to deal with their real world usage (top level only):
Applications = 53 Items, 4.61 GB used
Documents = 77 Items, 4.19 GB used
Movies = 78 Items, 448.21 GB used
Music = 3 Items, 381.89 GB used
Pictures = 244 Items, 158 GB used
And that's just from a grandma who belongs to a garden club (and composes monthly newsletters in Pages) and has a couple grand kids (she's the typical "snap-happy" grandma who loves her digital camera, and fills it routinely). All respect to Apple for the iOS, but it's not at a level to handle her usage right now in a solo capacity. I'm going to be replacing her iMac in the next few years with a new 24" model because she needs that big screen.
When it comes to Lion, I'm sure that you and I can handle anything they throw at us. My concerns are for those people who use technology for interaction with family and friends any don't know the first thing about keyboard short cuts, their fingers don't work as well as ours for gestures, and their eyesight leaves a lot to be desired. With the color and design changes to Lion, I'm very concerned that Snow Leopard will be the end of the road for those users. If iOS devices are going to be the space they dwell in, then these devices are going to have to meet their needs and I don't see that happening with real world capacity restraints. Lion may be making some people's lives easier, but it's also going to make a lot of people's lives harder and I don't think Apple is appropriately addressing this demographic from all that I've seen in their screen shots.