Aqua was pretty nice looking in its day (around 2001), and it still looks very modern. I think Steve Jobs said the UI was so good looking, you'll want to lick the screen.
This doesn't all look like an improvement.
I especially like the way that the rounded buttons currently make them very easy to spot. With the the more `technical' view they become less easy to spot.
The same with auto-appearing and disappearing of elements (what I suspect from seeing something where you do not see a scroll bar unless you are on top of it). This brings extra screen real estate when you are not scrolling, but at the price of losing a bit of information: by seeing a scroll bar when you're not using it, you can actually see how much more there is to scroll to even if you don't see what there is to scroll to.
It won't be a lot worse, as the interface is pretty slick anyway. But it becomes definitely less 'lickable'. Especially the buttons, which now look like sweets.
Wow, that's interesting. I use Windows 7 a lot (I have it on Boot Camp), and I print from both OS X and Windows, since one of my printers doesn't work with OS X. You'd think I'd have noticed that by now.
Oh crap!!! Sorry!!!!!
That's just a mock up!
As in... what the same dialog would look like with Windows UI components!!!! I meant to mention it in my original post but I forgot.
The point is changes in the OSX UI components more so than the actual print dialog itself.
You say I may be pleasantly surprised, by what might I ask? I've seen the same screen captures you have. What is it that I may find so pleasing? You're talking to someone that was elated when 10.0 came out and I got to experience aqua after 9.2. My first 600 MHz iBook (my first laptop ever) ran both OS's and I used them both. I loved the look of OS X. I loved seeing my friends who were Windows lovers (and some still are today) looking at how fantastic it looked on that rather low resolution screen.
Just move forward to Lion and I'm sitting here with an 8-core Mac Pro and a 30" Cinema Display with more than a HD resolution, and I'm watching the OS bleach out until it's nothing more than a bunch of gray buttons and disappearing sliders. And you suggest that I might be pleasantly surprised? What exactly would you have me be pleasantly surprised by? I'd really like to know. What is it that you find so awe inspiring with an OS that has all the appearance of the gravel in my driveway? I know there are people who are easily distracted, and I'm sorry for them, but I'm not one of those people who gets distracted. I see the OS I've supported from the very beginning becoming something that's not even interesting to look at. When an OS is no longer interesting to interact with, what is there really? What's the point? Gestures? Is that all I have to look forward to? I can't even manage to teach my parents how to use the gestures included in Snow Leopard. What's the point of even trying to get them to use the gestures with Lion?
Let's be blunt here and accept the fact that there are two kinds of users in the Mac Community. There are those people who want nothing. They want bare bones. These people exist in Terminal, and they think that even iTunes has far too much color for their world. They get distracted by everything around them, and they don't want anything between them and what they are doing. Then, at the opposite side of the spectrum, you have people like me. I don't use the Terminal, I enjoyed Aqua, I enjoyed the Dock not being that reflective thing, and I enjoyed the OS being so fantastically different visually from everything else out there that people were literally drawn to look at my screen and ask about all the things they were seeing.
I've converted over 40 colleagues alone to the Mac OS. Every single person in my immediate family has switched over to the Mac because of my insistence. I'm the one they all call when they can't figure out how to do something. What does it tell you as a fellow Mac user when you see someone who's been with the OS since it first turned to color, all of a sudden having very serious doubts about my love for Lion? I've seen the same screen shots you have. It's appallingly bland and doesn't appeal to the eye in even the slightest way, in my opinion. It seems that the people who want to see nothing, and experience the least possible from the OS have won. What I've seen of Lion is about as visually impressive as the inside of a hospital. It's apparently what you want in an OS. I may end up using it, but they'll never get me to say that I find it visually pleasing. I never thought I see the day when I'd lose faith in the Mac OS, but Lion has truly let down those of us looking for something more, not less, from our interaction with the OS from what I've seen so far. It's just depressing.
It does indeed inspire a bit of the 'beige box' feeling. And it does give you the feeling that Apple is losing part of what is making it great. This does not feel like Jobs/Ive User Experience Excellence at all.
I actually think that Windows' excessive use of color looks gaudy. I'm glad to see Apple going the other direction.
It'll take Windows YEARS to catch up and reverse the trend. When it does, and as soon as the reversal has some momentum, Apple will reintroduce more colorful widgets.
... Lion may be making some people's lives easier, but it's also going to make a lot of people's lives harder and I don't think Apple is appropriately addressing this demographic from all that I've seen in their screen shots.
The fact is that we live in an 'upgrade world'. This is a real problem for older users who are firmly rooted in the old TV world where you bought an appliance, turned it on, and that was that until it broke. It would be great to be able to switch to a simplified (clarified?) GUI. There was such an option in System 7, I think. I tried to set it up for a friend and it lacked one or two features that she wanted and so it was abandoned.
Indeed it does. I always liked OpenStep, and was never very fond of the "lickable" look (who wants to lick their computer? Eew).
I'm happy to say goodbye to the clown-blew-up-in-your-Mac look and move forward to a future in which the user's content is visually dominant.
I don't think there's anything wrong with content being visually dominant. The problem I have is that Lion seems to be ignoring non-power users when there are plenty of them using Macs. While you may find the minimalism and the monochromatic look of Lion to be ascetically pleasing, there are many others that need the variation to successfully interact with the OS. The changes to the buttons is a wrong choice in my opinion. The buttons the US uses now (the oblong ones) are visually different enough that the eye catches them, and they are elegant as well. The "boxy" look of the buttons in Lion looks ugly, like something out of Windows, and not "lickable" as Steve put it, in my opinion. For every person out there who enjoys the ultimate minimalist OS where visual cues aren't distinctive, there are those who prefer or need that distinction. Apple is sacrificing those who prefer visually distinctive elements in the OS for those who see everything as a distraction. Of every OS Apple has introduced since my beginning use of System 7, Lion is the very first release that hasn't inspired me. It just looks cold, bleak, and dead to me. That's not inspiring at all, nor is it even remotely "lickable".
I think on the whole it looks good but Im unsure about the scrollbars.
As I understand you now have to mouse over the area before the scrollbars appear?
The presence of the scrollbars always acted as a hint that there was more to see, it seems in Lion you will have to mouse over everything to find this out? Hardly user friendly
I think on the whole it looks good but Im unsure about the scrollbars.
As I understand you now have to mouse over the area before the scrollbars appear?
The presence of the scrollbars always acted as a hint that there was more to see, it seems in Lion you will have to mouse over everything to find this out? Hardly user friendly
Actually, the scroll bars don't appear unless you are scrolling. They sit on top of content, so if you going to click something where the scroll bars are at, they would appear and get in the way. They also show and disappear whenever you open a screen that scrolls. Really, that's all that i need, but some other people prefer it the classic way.
I posted this video before, but you should take a look at it, I tried to show off the behavior of the bars.
This looks very...Dull. Windows-ish. Seems like change for changes sake. I guess square buttons might have some teeny tiny bit of increased functionality, but ones that look so drab the blend in to the rest of the screen? Doesn't make sense.
And look at the window function buttons, they look so much more bland as well.
Not sure which version of Windows everyone is referring to, but the new interface looks nothing like Windows.
I think on the whole it looks good but Im unsure about the scrollbars.
As I understand you now have to mouse over the area before the scrollbars appear?
The presence of the scrollbars always acted as a hint that there was more to see, it seems in Lion you will have to mouse over everything to find this out? Hardly user friendly
This has already been answered for you and the others that absolutely have to have the scroll bar present at all times: it is a System Preference setting... so just click "Always Show".
I'm just curious as to how a number of you complaining about the scroll bars... scroll now?
Do you really "grab" the bar, or point and click on the silly arrows?
Scroll wheels/balls, 2-finger scroll anywhere, keyboard arrow keys, "grabber hand" with a Wacom, etc. have all alluded you guys?
To tell ya the truth, Apple could ax the scroll bar completely and I wouldn't even notice it... so I guess they could leave them in too for that matter. Just not a big deal at all for most of the people I know.
Uhm... considering your Grandma... she's already a "tech-head" whether she knows it or not. I'll admit change may come difficult for her. I'm curious as hell how she deals with Pages and it's miniscule UI elements and dialog boxes. Yes, it has color and the top bar can by enlarged... but the rest must be quite painful for her. Comparing it to the "spare-look" of Lion... I'm having a hard time justifying your continuous gripe here, because the Lion GUI at least looks easy to read.
I'm wondering if some day Apple will allow more system-wide modding for just these customers. There use to be such a thing with Shapeshifter haxies, if I I recall? Although at that time, I believe you could totally hose the system.
The Worst kind of people are people that whine like you. Not to mention the fact that you have zero proof, just some childish crap.
i'm the worse kind of people? flame bait if there ever was... and i'll bite.
I am an apple fan. I use mac professionally and also at home. I don't believe I was whining - I'm criticising elements of lion and apple's approach. I'm not criticising to whine but rather in hope that lion improves drastically before launch. I love snow leopard - it's great. Has bugs like all of apple's software (you should try using motion!) but If I had to upgrade my office to lion today I know i'll have the employees all swearing at me. And I'd have to spend an hour inverting the scrollbars on each machine
zero proof of what btw? That it might end up being apple's vista - i made a conjecture. Basically I meant that Lion might leave lots of people especially upgraders with a bitter after taste and might need help turning off all the nifty features...
i installed lion out of curiosity to see the great new features first hand - and the great new features are pretty cool - it's the little changes that don't need to be there that niggle. So excuse me if I came across like a whiner but I'd like to hear about your great experiences with lion.
apple appear to have decided to design lion for 1st time users who are coming in from iphone and ipad usage as their only previous computer experience. Any person with experience of desktop coomputing in the past 10 years might be puzzled and confused by seemingly simple changes which are just irritating and unnecessary.
I would be curious to know the amount if code it takes for each style. If the drab takes a third the lines of code for each element then you could have the reason right there.
As if the macs that Lion supports would struggle to run the current interface?
While I for one didn't care for the candy colors in Aqua, I did like the 3 dimensionality of it.
Dated or not, I think the highlights and glosses of Aqua make dealing with buttons, sliders, and the like easier, particularly when you factor in "maturing vision".
To me that's one thing Apple seems to be ignoring; that one segment of its customer base find increasingly fine default resolutions, tiny fonts and uniform color schemes more of a hindrance than a help.
I am inclined to agree with you - I think the older style looks more friendly
This newer style is more stark, and less friendly looking
Some would say - more business like...
I think that some parts of the interface are a step backwards...
I do't like the monochrome window control buttons for instance
- It means that instead of just clicking, now I have to stop and think about it, to work out which one does what - so "Targeting" is now much poorer..
Also when example screens are shown, we really need to compare like with like
- But the two screen shown are different, and so cannot be directly compaired, for instance the missing scrollbars, may be missing because they are not required on one screen, but the other - showing different content DOES require them - so a poor comparison there.
Comments
Aqua was pretty nice looking in its day (around 2001), and it still looks very modern. I think Steve Jobs said the UI was so good looking, you'll want to lick the screen.
This doesn't all look like an improvement.
I especially like the way that the rounded buttons currently make them very easy to spot. With the the more `technical' view they become less easy to spot.
The same with auto-appearing and disappearing of elements (what I suspect from seeing something where you do not see a scroll bar unless you are on top of it). This brings extra screen real estate when you are not scrolling, but at the price of losing a bit of information: by seeing a scroll bar when you're not using it, you can actually see how much more there is to scroll to even if you don't see what there is to scroll to.
It won't be a lot worse, as the interface is pretty slick anyway. But it becomes definitely less 'lickable'. Especially the buttons, which now look like sweets.
Wow, that's interesting. I use Windows 7 a lot (I have it on Boot Camp), and I print from both OS X and Windows, since one of my printers doesn't work with OS X. You'd think I'd have noticed that by now.
Oh crap!!! Sorry!!!!!
That's just a mock up!
As in... what the same dialog would look like with Windows UI components!!!! I meant to mention it in my original post but I forgot.
The point is changes in the OSX UI components more so than the actual print dialog itself.
You say I may be pleasantly surprised, by what might I ask? I've seen the same screen captures you have. What is it that I may find so pleasing? You're talking to someone that was elated when 10.0 came out and I got to experience aqua after 9.2. My first 600 MHz iBook (my first laptop ever) ran both OS's and I used them both. I loved the look of OS X. I loved seeing my friends who were Windows lovers (and some still are today) looking at how fantastic it looked on that rather low resolution screen.
Just move forward to Lion and I'm sitting here with an 8-core Mac Pro and a 30" Cinema Display with more than a HD resolution, and I'm watching the OS bleach out until it's nothing more than a bunch of gray buttons and disappearing sliders. And you suggest that I might be pleasantly surprised? What exactly would you have me be pleasantly surprised by? I'd really like to know. What is it that you find so awe inspiring with an OS that has all the appearance of the gravel in my driveway? I know there are people who are easily distracted, and I'm sorry for them, but I'm not one of those people who gets distracted. I see the OS I've supported from the very beginning becoming something that's not even interesting to look at. When an OS is no longer interesting to interact with, what is there really? What's the point? Gestures? Is that all I have to look forward to? I can't even manage to teach my parents how to use the gestures included in Snow Leopard. What's the point of even trying to get them to use the gestures with Lion?
Let's be blunt here and accept the fact that there are two kinds of users in the Mac Community. There are those people who want nothing. They want bare bones. These people exist in Terminal, and they think that even iTunes has far too much color for their world. They get distracted by everything around them, and they don't want anything between them and what they are doing. Then, at the opposite side of the spectrum, you have people like me. I don't use the Terminal, I enjoyed Aqua, I enjoyed the Dock not being that reflective thing, and I enjoyed the OS being so fantastically different visually from everything else out there that people were literally drawn to look at my screen and ask about all the things they were seeing.
I've converted over 40 colleagues alone to the Mac OS. Every single person in my immediate family has switched over to the Mac because of my insistence. I'm the one they all call when they can't figure out how to do something. What does it tell you as a fellow Mac user when you see someone who's been with the OS since it first turned to color, all of a sudden having very serious doubts about my love for Lion? I've seen the same screen shots you have. It's appallingly bland and doesn't appeal to the eye in even the slightest way, in my opinion. It seems that the people who want to see nothing, and experience the least possible from the OS have won. What I've seen of Lion is about as visually impressive as the inside of a hospital. It's apparently what you want in an OS. I may end up using it, but they'll never get me to say that I find it visually pleasing. I never thought I see the day when I'd lose faith in the Mac OS, but Lion has truly let down those of us looking for something more, not less, from our interaction with the OS from what I've seen so far. It's just depressing.
It does indeed inspire a bit of the 'beige box' feeling. And it does give you the feeling that Apple is losing part of what is making it great. This does not feel like Jobs/Ive User Experience Excellence at all.
The GUI is not the star, it's the stage.
...
I actually think that Windows' excessive use of color looks gaudy. I'm glad to see Apple going the other direction.
It'll take Windows YEARS to catch up and reverse the trend. When it does, and as soon as the reversal has some momentum, Apple will reintroduce more colorful widgets.
... Lion may be making some people's lives easier, but it's also going to make a lot of people's lives harder and I don't think Apple is appropriately addressing this demographic from all that I've seen in their screen shots.
The fact is that we live in an 'upgrade world'. This is a real problem for older users who are firmly rooted in the old TV world where you bought an appliance, turned it on, and that was that until it broke. It would be great to be able to switch to a simplified (clarified?) GUI. There was such an option in System 7, I think. I tried to set it up for a friend and it lacked one or two features that she wanted and so it was abandoned.
Indeed it does. I always liked OpenStep, and was never very fond of the "lickable" look (who wants to lick their computer? Eew).
I'm happy to say goodbye to the clown-blew-up-in-your-Mac look and move forward to a future in which the user's content is visually dominant.
I don't think there's anything wrong with content being visually dominant. The problem I have is that Lion seems to be ignoring non-power users when there are plenty of them using Macs. While you may find the minimalism and the monochromatic look of Lion to be ascetically pleasing, there are many others that need the variation to successfully interact with the OS. The changes to the buttons is a wrong choice in my opinion. The buttons the US uses now (the oblong ones) are visually different enough that the eye catches them, and they are elegant as well. The "boxy" look of the buttons in Lion looks ugly, like something out of Windows, and not "lickable" as Steve put it, in my opinion. For every person out there who enjoys the ultimate minimalist OS where visual cues aren't distinctive, there are those who prefer or need that distinction. Apple is sacrificing those who prefer visually distinctive elements in the OS for those who see everything as a distraction. Of every OS Apple has introduced since my beginning use of System 7, Lion is the very first release that hasn't inspired me. It just looks cold, bleak, and dead to me. That's not inspiring at all, nor is it even remotely "lickable".
As I understand you now have to mouse over the area before the scrollbars appear?
The presence of the scrollbars always acted as a hint that there was more to see, it seems in Lion you will have to mouse over everything to find this out? Hardly user friendly
I think on the whole it looks good but Im unsure about the scrollbars.
As I understand you now have to mouse over the area before the scrollbars appear?
The presence of the scrollbars always acted as a hint that there was more to see, it seems in Lion you will have to mouse over everything to find this out? Hardly user friendly
Actually, the scroll bars don't appear unless you are scrolling. They sit on top of content, so if you going to click something where the scroll bars are at, they would appear and get in the way. They also show and disappear whenever you open a screen that scrolls. Really, that's all that i need, but some other people prefer it the classic way.
I posted this video before, but you should take a look at it, I tried to show off the behavior of the bars.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIcD7VZbxUk
This looks very...Dull. Windows-ish. Seems like change for changes sake. I guess square buttons might have some teeny tiny bit of increased functionality, but ones that look so drab the blend in to the rest of the screen? Doesn't make sense.
And look at the window function buttons, they look so much more bland as well.
Not sure which version of Windows everyone is referring to, but the new interface looks nothing like Windows.
Getting closer to Windows 95 every year...
Aqua went over like a skunk in the car. Do you hear any love from the crowd in this video from its introduction?
http://media.arstechnica.com/reviews...aqua-intro.mov
I think on the whole it looks good but Im unsure about the scrollbars.
As I understand you now have to mouse over the area before the scrollbars appear?
The presence of the scrollbars always acted as a hint that there was more to see, it seems in Lion you will have to mouse over everything to find this out? Hardly user friendly
This has already been answered for you and the others that absolutely have to have the scroll bar present at all times: it is a System Preference setting... so just click "Always Show".
I'm just curious as to how a number of you complaining about the scroll bars... scroll now?
Do you really "grab" the bar, or point and click on the silly arrows?
Scroll wheels/balls, 2-finger scroll anywhere, keyboard arrow keys, "grabber hand" with a Wacom, etc. have all alluded you guys?
To tell ya the truth, Apple could ax the scroll bar completely and I wouldn't even notice it... so I guess they could leave them in too for that matter. Just not a big deal at all for most of the people I know.
@Brian Green
Uhm... considering your Grandma... she's already a "tech-head" whether she knows it or not. I'll admit change may come difficult for her. I'm curious as hell how she deals with Pages and it's miniscule UI elements and dialog boxes. Yes, it has color and the top bar can by enlarged... but the rest must be quite painful for her. Comparing it to the "spare-look" of Lion... I'm having a hard time justifying your continuous gripe here, because the Lion GUI at least looks easy to read.
I'm wondering if some day Apple will allow more system-wide modding for just these customers. There use to be such a thing with Shapeshifter haxies, if I I recall? Although at that time, I believe you could totally hose the system.
And for you windows fans out there, certainly this was a pinnacle moment.
http://www.codinghorror.com/blog/200...or-scheme.html
Windows 95 was very colorful. Ugly but full of color.
The Worst kind of people are people that whine like you. Not to mention the fact that you have zero proof, just some childish crap.
i'm the worse kind of people? flame bait if there ever was... and i'll bite.
I am an apple fan. I use mac professionally and also at home. I don't believe I was whining - I'm criticising elements of lion and apple's approach. I'm not criticising to whine but rather in hope that lion improves drastically before launch. I love snow leopard - it's great. Has bugs like all of apple's software (you should try using motion!) but If I had to upgrade my office to lion today I know i'll have the employees all swearing at me. And I'd have to spend an hour inverting the scrollbars on each machine
zero proof of what btw? That it might end up being apple's vista - i made a conjecture. Basically I meant that Lion might leave lots of people especially upgraders with a bitter after taste and might need help turning off all the nifty features...
i installed lion out of curiosity to see the great new features first hand - and the great new features are pretty cool - it's the little changes that don't need to be there that niggle. So excuse me if I came across like a whiner but I'd like to hear about your great experiences with lion.
apple appear to have decided to design lion for 1st time users who are coming in from iphone and ipad usage as their only previous computer experience. Any person with experience of desktop coomputing in the past 10 years might be puzzled and confused by seemingly simple changes which are just irritating and unnecessary.
IMG above
... in a nutshell (an aluminum one grey, at that)
I would be curious to know the amount if code it takes for each style. If the drab takes a third the lines of code for each element then you could have the reason right there.
As if the macs that Lion supports would struggle to run the current interface?
Dated or not, I think the highlights and glosses of Aqua make dealing with buttons, sliders, and the like easier, particularly when you factor in "maturing vision".
To me that's one thing Apple seems to be ignoring; that one segment of its customer base find increasingly fine default resolutions, tiny fonts and uniform color schemes more of a hindrance than a help.
Just my 2¢ worth, now I'm back to lurking.
This newer style is more stark, and less friendly looking
Some would say - more business like...
I think that some parts of the interface are a step backwards...
I do't like the monochrome window control buttons for instance
- It means that instead of just clicking, now I have to stop and think about it, to work out which one does what - so "Targeting" is now much poorer..
Also when example screens are shown, we really need to compare like with like
- But the two screen shown are different, and so cannot be directly compaired, for instance the missing scrollbars, may be missing because they are not required on one screen, but the other - showing different content DOES require them - so a poor comparison there.