Matsu appears to be pounding a point so hard it is in danger of not being made.(you have to get past the harshness) </strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm certainly not one to worry about harshness. And like I said, I don't think he's racist, just making a point.
Here's what I have to say about the topic. Poor black society is in part self-imposed, but in part imposed by the society at large. There may be a lack of direction from the culture, but there are definitely less opportunities in those communities as well. Less libraries, less grocery stores, less movie theaters. Broadband internet? Hell no. Paved roads? Hell no. Schools with roofs that don't leak? No way.
You get the point. This is a choice actively and passively made by our society outside of these communities. At this point in time I think the rate of attrition is greater than that of the rate of success.
I would love to see a study done on the "success rate" of poor minorities that live in well-to-do areas of the city (due to housing subsidies and such) versus those that grow up in the "projects."
What it sounds like you are describing is what many in the black community call a "wigger."<hr></blockquote>
I haven't heard that word in a long time!
[quote]
What about a long, greasy haired, chain-smoking, beer guzzling, country listening( or deadhead listening), southern drawling (or california dude'ing) white guy? <hr></blockquote>
Sounds like a typical southern business owner to me.
[quote]
If a white person were to speak in a manner that defined a poor understanding of English structures or lack of education, do we honestly picture them working somewhere besides Walmart? I know plenty of folks who are not successful educationally and I don't ever see them doing more than 6-8 dollar an hour work at places like Rite-Aide, Walmart, Kmart, etc.
<hr></blockquote>
Now I'm fully convinced that your problem stems from living in a suburban/rural area.
I always think how funny it is when people make such broad stereoypes. I find it really interesting that I don't know a single person that fits into any of them. Maybe it's because of the high level of racial integration in my community (although I have also lived in Houston, Detroit, Denver and Upstate NY and travelled extensively).
That being said, it's funny that you bring up language. More examples: I have a good friend who is a writer. She also uses more slang than anyone I have ever met. Yet when she writes it's like another person. Of course, I attribute her love of slang to her love of undertsanding the variations of English. That and the fact that she finds it more comfortable for vocal expression, as I do to some degree. Of course, if someone as dumb as you met her, you would probably think she worked at wallmart.
Then there's me. I go through phases of using a lot of slang, even though I'm a white male. Growing up in an integrated neighborhood brought me in touch with terms used by many cultures. Of course, that hasn't stopped me from getting great jobs. In fact, it's sort of an asset because I use it in a way that makes people comfortable.
But, and this is the important part, I know beyond a doubt that if I talked and acted the way I do and I was a Black male, I would be viewed entirely differently. Some of the things I do and say would intimidate people. But since I'm White, I am just viewed as urban chic and hip.
The difference between being Black and being White is that, as a White man, Whites view me as one of their own and not a threat. I can get away with much more than if I was exactly the same except for my skin color.
<strong>Do you think that blacks and American born latinos score worse on tests because of racism in America or in schools? Do you think there is something within their culture that undervalues education (it's acting white) and causes the lack of achievement in comparison to white and asian test scores?</strong><hr></blockquote>1. I don't think anyone has been saying that minority underachievement is due to direct racism, like teachers giving lower grades just because you're a minority. I'm sure you can find people that believe anything, but some people have made it seem like that's the current mainstream view, which is ridiculous.
2. There is a tendency to interpret some of these ideas as "see, it's blacks bringing it on themselves, it's not whites' fault!" But aren't these self-defeating attitudes really the legacy of past discrimination? It's only been a few generations since the civil rights changes of the 1960s, so there's bound to be some after-effects. It's silly to say that now that the laws are changed, all current generations of minorities should be equal to whites, and any underachievement is therefore "their fault."
[quote]Originally posted by pscates:
<strong>That's just Shawn, fellas. He's one of those rare individuals who apparently knows ALL and has everything figured out at 19. And anyone else, despite their age, education, experience, etc. are just fumbling through it all, hoping to catch up to him.
I'm sure, given the chance, he would've informed Einstein that he's "all wrong".
</strong><hr></blockquote>In fairness to spj, in that other thread YOU GUYS started saying that he didn't know what he was talking about because he is younger than you, not the other way around.
<strong>In fairness to spj, in that other thread YOU GUYS started saying that he didn't know what he was talking about because he is younger than you, not the other way around.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually, uh...no. I made a very nice post in the thread about Fireside returning to AppleOutsider that showed how Shawn questions credentials, writing, and pretty much intelligence of everyone who disagrees with him on a subject.
Now I'm fully convinced that your problem stems from living in a suburban/rural area.
I always think how funny it is when people make such broad stereoypes. I find it really interesting that I don't know a single person that fits into any of them. Maybe it's because of the high level of racial integration in my community (although I have also lived in Houston, Detroit, Denver and Upstate NY and travelled extensively).
That being said, it's funny that you bring up language. More examples: I have a good friend who is a writer. She also uses more slang than anyone I have ever met. Yet when she writes it's like another person. Of course, I attribute her love of slang to her love of undertsanding the variations of English. That and the fact that she finds it more comfortable for vocal expression, as I do to some degree. Of course, if someone as dumb as you met her, you would probably think she worked at wallmart.
Then there's me. I go through phases of using a lot of slang, even though I'm a white male. Growing up in an integrated neighborhood brought me in touch with terms used by many cultures. Of course, that hasn't stopped me from getting great jobs. In fact, it's sort of an asset because I use it in a way that makes people comfortable.
But, and this is the important part, I know beyond a doubt that if I talked and acted the way I do and I was a Black male, I would be viewed entirely differently. Some of the things I do and say would intimidate people. But since I'm White, I am just viewed as urban chic and hip.
The difference between being Black and being White is that, as a White man, Whites view me as one of their own and not a threat. I can get away with much more than if I was exactly the same except for my skin color.
I just don't get you. I have stated that I lived and worked in Long Beach and Los Angeles for over 10 years. You just don't get bigger, more diverse than that. I don't know where you get off declaring that anyone that disagrees with you must live in Idaho or something like that. Even many of the smaller cities here in California are bigger than the largest city in most states.
You make more judgements about people and their backgrounds than anyone I have yet met on these forums. Every generalization to you becomes an instant stereotype and of course you anecdotally just happen to know all the exceptions.
Are we clear that knowing and using slang is not the same thing and not knowing it is even slang in the first place?
Being silly and using slang is not the same thing as that "slang" being your first and only means of communicating with the outside world.
It is not that you are "urban chic and hip" when you are a white acting black. Likewise speaking informally is what MOST people do. Your little straw man is easy to knock down because literally NO ONE writes exactly as they speak. Written language by nature is more structured and formal, and that doesn't mean you have some sort of moral high ground because you point out the obvious.
The point is that if you or your friend were asked to read or write a passage in formal English could you do so and do it well. If the answer is yes for you and no for your neighbor (regardless of color) then that is the difference in your success. It is not color nor speech alone, it is education.
Then to top it off you do nothing but stereotype yourself. "Oh you must believe that because you live in a rural area"(which I don't) "Oh that sounds like most Southern business owners to me"
Stop pointing fingers... start addressing the thread.
<strong>1. I don't think anyone has been saying that minority underachievement is due to direct racism, like teachers giving lower grades just because you're a minority. I'm sure you can find people that believe anything, but some people have made it seem like that's the current mainstream view, which is ridiculous.
2. There is a tendency to interpret some of these ideas as "see, it's blacks bringing it on themselves, it's not whites' fault!" But aren't these self-defeating attitudes really the legacy of past discrimination? It's only been a few generations since the civil rights changes of the 1960s, so there's bound to be some after-effects. It's silly to say that now that the laws are changed, all current generations of minorities should be equal to whites, and any underachievement is therefore "their fault.".</strong><hr></blockquote>
Is it really racism though when you have attributes that a community might not choose to adopt regardless of past injustice.
I mean segregation, which is what was ended in the 60's doesn't cause a lack of desire for learning or education. Even environmental factors can't contribute to that because as our nation grows more wealthy, what is considered acceptable changes as well.
For example the average house being built now is over 2,000 sq ft of living space. There are plenty of 2 bedroom 1 bath houses that were built in the 30-50's that are about 900 sq ft. American G.I's came home and bought them by the thousands.
Did they some how "suffer" because of this lack of living space?
An impoverished school today might only have 1 computer per 10 students instead of 1 per 5. We are not talking about a situation where schools have dramatic differences in quality, only substancially in quantity.
The school I worked at in Los Angeles had 99% of the students impoverished. Our classrooms still had books, computers, and supplies. (California was about 45th in spending at that time) We had enough to learn. Again maybe we used the computer lab twice a week instead of 3 times. That isn't what creates the type of disparity we are talking about.
Then again what about Asians? Many children from asian countries have a spoken and written language that isn't even remotely close to English yet they will pick it up and even head off to college within a few years.
I can give you a first hand experience of this. My wife and I hosted a Japanese exchange student for a year. She came to our home and went to the local high school. The counselor at the school wanted to dumb everything down for her. She didn't believe her capable since her English was very limited. I wouldn't hear of it and had them enroll her in the next math class she was supposed to take... Calculus.
She had a little trouble because the teacher was German and had somewhat limited English as well. However she still got a "B" and carried an impressive college prep classload. If things got too hard for her she would just call back to Japan and in a few days (I kid you not) some package would arrive with all sorts of study books for Calculus in Japanese.
She had a 3.0 GPA for the year and was a junior honor escort for the Senior graduation. (She was only a junior)
Not bad for literally not being able to speak hardly any English when she arrived I would think.
In Japan, she was a very average student. She didn't even go to university after she graduated.
The point is that she didn't need a generation or two. She didn't even need more than a year or two.
This happens very often in California. We have lot s of Korean teens for example who don't even arrive in the U.S. until they are 13 or so. They still make it into college and do just fine.
Finally look at other areas outside of education where minorities were repressed. Did it take generations for them to catch up? If anything the not only caught up, the surpassed most others in those fields.
Are we clear that knowing and using slang is not the same thing and not knowing it is even slang in the first place?
Being silly and using slang is not the same thing as that "slang" being your first and only means of communicating with the outside world.
<hr></blockquote>
You are making assumptions that you are more self-aware than most people. Typical elitist ignorance.
[quote]
It is not that you are "urban chic and hip" when you are a white acting black.
<hr></blockquote>
This statement shows you believe there is a solid line between black and white, and that no other races count in this example. That's a big problem and a symptom of using racial stereotypes to define your world. If I use a yiddish term, which is applicable to some situations, am I acting Jewish? The reality is, when you live in a racially integrated neighborhood (and not just black and white) you notice that what you considered 'Black behavior' tends to be more defined by the viewer's perception of skin color.
When I say urban chic and hip, there is much more complexity than 'black and white' because the designation comes from a multi-racial environment and an appreciation for culture (artistic and practical) and emphasis on higher education. It is limited understanding that finds it necessary to classify people in such basic groupings so a simple mind can understand them.
Don't try to oversimplify the life of a stranger by saying it's 'acting Black.' It only further demonstrates how you prejudge people and classify them.
[quote]
The point is that if you or your friend were asked to read or write a passage in formal English could you do so and do it well. If the answer is yes for you and no for your neighbor (regardless of color) then that is the difference in your success. It is not color nor speech alone, it is education.
<hr></blockquote>
The thing that convinced me the most that raising children in suburbs was a horrible idea was when I saw the low level of education these kids were recieving. Both in Rochester, Michigan and in Chicago's North Shore, I was amazed that the highly funded schools did little to challenge the students. When tutoring high school students in both areas, it blew me away that they had no understanding of the basics of writing. Never even heard of the 5 paragraph form. Amazing. And even when they handed in papers that I though were the shittiest I had ever read, they would get nothing lower than a C. In my more urban HS, with equal number of whites and blacks and an entire bilingual wing, that would never fly. Yet there were many minority students that you would think were stupid if you judged them by how they spoke.
So in terms of success, it is not simply education. Like I said, there is not doubt I would be treated very differently if I was Black but I acted the same.
In terms of academic achievement, sure there is an education problem in the Black community, but there is also a discrimination problem in academia that people are working to change. It is high-profile: Cornell West, for example.
Now I am not saying that there is not a massive literacy problem among minority students. I am just pointing out that sweeping generalizations are very faulty.
[quote]
"Oh that sounds like most Southern business owners to me"
<hr></blockquote>
and it does
The simple fact remains that the most limiting factor is a systematic misunderstanding on both sides of the race coin. Blacks and Whites assume things about members of the other race. Psychologically, people end up disregarding the things that defy that stereotype and focus on those traits that reinforce it.
I feel lucky that I am still surrounded by so many folks of different races (as I think about it, it's probably an even split of arab, black, latino, korean, filipino, african, western european), but to be honest I never think about it until I hear someone spew this stereotypical garbage that really has no basis in reality. I could easily provide example after example (and I have so many), but I feel like I'm being told that only ignorant sweeping generalizations are welcome in this thread.
And these sweeping generalizations that are made by individuals in so many inter-racial interactions is exactly what is holding blacks and whites from having an equal standing in every secotr of American society.
PS. I heard a funny story on NPR told by a Black woman who moved to France. She was standing in a long line for a movie and decided to try to cut. In America, she would commonly do this because White folks would be too frightened to say anything. But she was surprised when all the white French told her to go back to the end. She said that really made her feel at home...because she was treated just like anyone else.
I'll just ignore you. You are obviously a troll who gets off on accusing people of things while providing no real insight to a conversation. On top of it you sit there are requote the entire article to which I linked.
thus, you ignore what the full article (not the abridged one that ends up getting responses like "minorities 'Dumb' themselves down") has to say and end up forming a racist and unrealistic image of those around you. amazing. No wonder Blacks have a hard time getting ahead.
I'm getting on your case for you generalizations that have nothing to do with Ogbu's actual research. If you were really interested in understanding the topic, you would have actually dug up the longer article and read that, but it seems you are just looking for a platform to say that Blacks have only themselves to blame for the racial restrictions they experience.
So read the long article and learn a thing or two. Ogbu comes to a very different conclusion than you or matsu, so maybe you should get straight what you are citing before you agree with it.
I bet those changes in public education Ogbu proposes are going to cost some tax dollars. You agree to that, too?
but it seems you are just looking for a platform to say that Blacks have only themselves to blame for the racial restrictions they experience.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well I can tell you that in this community, they have a large share of the blame.
The murder rates among blacks in this community are staggering, and guess what? It's black on black crime. It's amazing that they live in squalor and yet manage to have the latest and most expensive jackets, sneakers and cars.
one teenager recently shot another to death because he wanted his jacket.
I live near an Occupational/Technical high school, which has an enrollment of predominantly black students. They are having problems with assaults on teachers, and on any given school day, you can see many of them hanging out in a nearby park, instead of learning in a classroom. this is not racism, it's observation. No it's not all of them, but it's enough to state that it's a major problem.
We also have a huge Hispanic community but they aren't killing each other, and perpetrating crimes against one another.
I'm not saying that there isn't some blame to be shared by the rest of our society, but at some point, you have to move on and do what's necessary to help yourself.
Is taking responsibility for your own actions and assuming the consequences such a foreign concept to people?
thus, you ignore what the full article (not the abridged one that ends up getting responses like "minorities 'Dumb' themselves down") has to say and end up forming a racist and unrealistic image of those around you. amazing. No wonder Blacks have a hard time getting ahead.
I'm getting on your case for you generalizations that have nothing to do with Ogbu's actual research. If you were really interested in understanding the topic, you would have actually dug up the longer article and read that, but it seems you are just looking for a platform to say that Blacks have only themselves to blame for the racial restrictions they experience.
So read the long article and learn a thing or two. Ogbu comes to a very different conclusion than you or matsu, so maybe you should get straight what you are citing before you agree with it.
I bet those changes in public education Ogbu proposes are going to cost some tax dollars. You agree to that, too?
You are perhaps the most ignorant person I have encountered. Your rage and namecalling at those who refuse to bend to your mindless prattle is laughable.
I never stated I agreed with the article. Of course that would require this little thing called reading comprehension. I linked to it, asked some probing questions, and then asked for opinions.
You came into my thread. You generalize about everyone and their background and then call just about everyone a racist.
Enjoy your mental masterbation, because you are the only one getting enjoyment from it.
Mod's please feel free to lock this thread, or move it and Giant to fireside where they belong now that he has turned it into a name-calling flamefest.
to trumptman, giant, and anyone else attacking other members here:
Stop the personal attacks NOW. We moderators and administrators are seriously fed up with the mugslinging like this. If things start getting out of hand from now on, we won't just be locking threads. We'll be suspending your accounts here as well.
It really isn't about how large your house is. How many computers are in your lab. It's about parenting. It's about opportunity. I still feel like Blacks in many ways simply don't have as many doors open up compared to Whites. A "Wigger" can easily stop the slang and assimilate back into the Majority status. Latino's and Black cannot.
Hip Hop music is an interesting Microcosm in that it DOES influence the Black Community as a whole. When I grew up Run DMC wasn't rapping about shooting people. Suddenly overnight NWA and every Tom Dick and Harry started rapping about Murder. The damage has been immense. A whole new generation of negativity and anger. This is allowed because the ones making the real money aren't Black. They have nothing to lose.
[quote]Then again what about Asians? Many children from asian countries have a spoken and written language that isn't even remotely close to English yet they will pick it up and even head off to college within a few years. <hr></blockquote>
English isn't hard. Slang is nothing more than carving out a bit of uniqueness. I cannot compare Immigrants to Minorities. They have certain advantages that come into play. Many Asian Immigrants are not poor. Many also realize how hard life can be in other countries and bust their azzes. I respect that. But it's a far cry from growing up in a disheveled home with no Father.
[quote] Well I can tell you that in this community, they have a large share of the blame.
The murder rates among blacks in this community are staggering, and guess what? It's black on black crime. <hr></blockquote>
Yes and White crime is predominantly against other whites. Same with Asians same with Latinos. There's an unwritten rule out here. Kill your own kind. Tensions flare when the victim is that of a different color than the purpetrator. That's the way it goes.
[quote] I live near an Occupational/Technical high school, which has an enrollment of predominantly black students. They are having problems with assaults on teachers, and on any given school day, you can see many of them hanging out in a nearby park, instead of learning in a classroom. this is not racism, it's observation <hr></blockquote>
Just how would you be able to adequately "observe" this if you attend class religoiusly yourself? Would you be ignorant to what goes out "outside" the classroom, unless you were "hanging out" also? Your story sounds fishy.
The US has a value system that is readily apparent. Some things are simply acceptable.
1. Middle Eastern men are all potential Hijackers.
2. Black Men are useless Fathers/Husbands and lazy.
3. Latinos will have 10 kids stuffed into a 2 bedroom apt..but work hard.
4. Asian are intellectually superior. The Women are adored but the Men are physically inferior.
The beat goes on. Things are drastically improving but I think you will see the future offers the most improvement for Latinos. The fastest growing Race and one which will hold immense power in 40 years.
Just how would you be able to adequately "observe" this if you attend class religoiusly yourself? Would you be ignorant to what goes out "outside" the classroom, unless you were "hanging out" also? Your story sounds fishy.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Of course it sounds fishy. Why would you expect anyone on this board to actually tell the truth?
It's simple really.
I am not a student. I am a freelancer.
I have a window , where from my work area, there is a clear view of the park.
You say that the negativity in today's rap music is a terible influence, and I wholeheartedly agree. However, to blame it's proliferation on non-whites is absurd. The people who buy it and listen to it have a choice. They can reject the message as easily as accepting it.
I'm not going to comment on all that has been said here. It is unfortunate that so much of it is based on stereotypes and ignorance. I'll give you some facts. One half my family is black/ There is not one poor person in my family. My black US cousins have incomes that would make most of you people feel like trash. There are just as many dumb white folk as there are dumb black folk. NO culture has a monopoly on either smart people or dumb people. American cullture victemizes poor people, and all poor people suffer, not just blacks. In the city I live in, actors were sent around to job interviews. They we're coached in how to respond to questions, they were given exactly the same resume's. Blacks recieved one quarter the job offers as the white actors. Rascism isn't dead it's just not as virulent. Give anyone decent support, somewhere to turn when they have problems and they will succeed. It's been shown again and again. America's abandonment of any kind of meaningful social programs has meant that many minority students will never have that. Enjoy your tax cuts. have a nice day.
Well actually, since there are more white folk in America, it stands to reason that there are actually a lot more dumb white folk!
But why do students, young people, have poor achievement? Stupidity. Kids don't need much of an excuse to act stupid, black communities have very poor mechanisms for discouraging juvenile stupidity. "Blackness" has unfortunately become tied to stereotypes (self propelled within the community) that liken "keeping it real" to keeping it poor/uneducated and highly unrealistic. Enacting "whiteness" does not come with a host of built in handicaps. So, fair or unfair, what black community leaders need to do is question the legitimacy of certain black myths.
Comments
<strong>
Matsu appears to be pounding a point so hard it is in danger of not being made.(you have to get past the harshness) </strong><hr></blockquote>
I'm certainly not one to worry about harshness. And like I said, I don't think he's racist, just making a point.
Here's what I have to say about the topic. Poor black society is in part self-imposed, but in part imposed by the society at large. There may be a lack of direction from the culture, but there are definitely less opportunities in those communities as well. Less libraries, less grocery stores, less movie theaters. Broadband internet? Hell no. Paved roads? Hell no. Schools with roofs that don't leak? No way.
You get the point. This is a choice actively and passively made by our society outside of these communities. At this point in time I think the rate of attrition is greater than that of the rate of success.
I would love to see a study done on the "success rate" of poor minorities that live in well-to-do areas of the city (due to housing subsidies and such) versus those that grow up in the "projects."
What it sounds like you are describing is what many in the black community call a "wigger."<hr></blockquote>
I haven't heard that word in a long time!
[quote]
What about a long, greasy haired, chain-smoking, beer guzzling, country listening( or deadhead listening), southern drawling (or california dude'ing) white guy? <hr></blockquote>
Sounds like a typical southern business owner to me.
[quote]
If a white person were to speak in a manner that defined a poor understanding of English structures or lack of education, do we honestly picture them working somewhere besides Walmart? I know plenty of folks who are not successful educationally and I don't ever see them doing more than 6-8 dollar an hour work at places like Rite-Aide, Walmart, Kmart, etc.
<hr></blockquote>
Now I'm fully convinced that your problem stems from living in a suburban/rural area.
I always think how funny it is when people make such broad stereoypes. I find it really interesting that I don't know a single person that fits into any of them. Maybe it's because of the high level of racial integration in my community (although I have also lived in Houston, Detroit, Denver and Upstate NY and travelled extensively).
That being said, it's funny that you bring up language. More examples: I have a good friend who is a writer. She also uses more slang than anyone I have ever met. Yet when she writes it's like another person. Of course, I attribute her love of slang to her love of undertsanding the variations of English. That and the fact that she finds it more comfortable for vocal expression, as I do to some degree. Of course, if someone as dumb as you met her, you would probably think she worked at wallmart.
Then there's me. I go through phases of using a lot of slang, even though I'm a white male. Growing up in an integrated neighborhood brought me in touch with terms used by many cultures. Of course, that hasn't stopped me from getting great jobs. In fact, it's sort of an asset because I use it in a way that makes people comfortable.
But, and this is the important part, I know beyond a doubt that if I talked and acted the way I do and I was a Black male, I would be viewed entirely differently. Some of the things I do and say would intimidate people. But since I'm White, I am just viewed as urban chic and hip.
The difference between being Black and being White is that, as a White man, Whites view me as one of their own and not a threat. I can get away with much more than if I was exactly the same except for my skin color.
[ 12-30-2002: Message edited by: giant ]</p>
<strong>Do you think that blacks and American born latinos score worse on tests because of racism in America or in schools? Do you think there is something within their culture that undervalues education (it's acting white) and causes the lack of achievement in comparison to white and asian test scores?</strong><hr></blockquote>1. I don't think anyone has been saying that minority underachievement is due to direct racism, like teachers giving lower grades just because you're a minority. I'm sure you can find people that believe anything, but some people have made it seem like that's the current mainstream view, which is ridiculous.
2. There is a tendency to interpret some of these ideas as "see, it's blacks bringing it on themselves, it's not whites' fault!" But aren't these self-defeating attitudes really the legacy of past discrimination? It's only been a few generations since the civil rights changes of the 1960s, so there's bound to be some after-effects. It's silly to say that now that the laws are changed, all current generations of minorities should be equal to whites, and any underachievement is therefore "their fault."
[quote]Originally posted by pscates:
<strong>That's just Shawn, fellas. He's one of those rare individuals who apparently knows ALL and has everything figured out at 19. And anyone else, despite their age, education, experience, etc. are just fumbling through it all, hoping to catch up to him.
I'm sure, given the chance, he would've informed Einstein that he's "all wrong".
</strong><hr></blockquote>In fairness to spj, in that other thread YOU GUYS started saying that he didn't know what he was talking about because he is younger than you, not the other way around.
<strong>In fairness to spj, in that other thread YOU GUYS started saying that he didn't know what he was talking about because he is younger than you, not the other way around.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually, uh...no. I made a very nice post in the thread about Fireside returning to AppleOutsider that showed how Shawn questions credentials, writing, and pretty much intelligence of everyone who disagrees with him on a subject.
Nick
<strong>
Now I'm fully convinced that your problem stems from living in a suburban/rural area.
I always think how funny it is when people make such broad stereoypes. I find it really interesting that I don't know a single person that fits into any of them. Maybe it's because of the high level of racial integration in my community (although I have also lived in Houston, Detroit, Denver and Upstate NY and travelled extensively).
That being said, it's funny that you bring up language. More examples: I have a good friend who is a writer. She also uses more slang than anyone I have ever met. Yet when she writes it's like another person. Of course, I attribute her love of slang to her love of undertsanding the variations of English. That and the fact that she finds it more comfortable for vocal expression, as I do to some degree. Of course, if someone as dumb as you met her, you would probably think she worked at wallmart.
Then there's me. I go through phases of using a lot of slang, even though I'm a white male. Growing up in an integrated neighborhood brought me in touch with terms used by many cultures. Of course, that hasn't stopped me from getting great jobs. In fact, it's sort of an asset because I use it in a way that makes people comfortable.
But, and this is the important part, I know beyond a doubt that if I talked and acted the way I do and I was a Black male, I would be viewed entirely differently. Some of the things I do and say would intimidate people. But since I'm White, I am just viewed as urban chic and hip.
The difference between being Black and being White is that, as a White man, Whites view me as one of their own and not a threat. I can get away with much more than if I was exactly the same except for my skin color.
[ 12-30-2002: Message edited by: giant ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Giant,
I just don't get you. I have stated that I lived and worked in Long Beach and Los Angeles for over 10 years. You just don't get bigger, more diverse than that. I don't know where you get off declaring that anyone that disagrees with you must live in Idaho or something like that. Even many of the smaller cities here in California are bigger than the largest city in most states.
You make more judgements about people and their backgrounds than anyone I have yet met on these forums. Every generalization to you becomes an instant stereotype and of course you anecdotally just happen to know all the exceptions.
Are we clear that knowing and using slang is not the same thing and not knowing it is even slang in the first place?
Being silly and using slang is not the same thing as that "slang" being your first and only means of communicating with the outside world.
It is not that you are "urban chic and hip" when you are a white acting black. Likewise speaking informally is what MOST people do. Your little straw man is easy to knock down because literally NO ONE writes exactly as they speak. Written language by nature is more structured and formal, and that doesn't mean you have some sort of moral high ground because you point out the obvious.
The point is that if you or your friend were asked to read or write a passage in formal English could you do so and do it well. If the answer is yes for you and no for your neighbor (regardless of color) then that is the difference in your success. It is not color nor speech alone, it is education.
Then to top it off you do nothing but stereotype yourself. "Oh you must believe that because you live in a rural area"(which I don't) "Oh that sounds like most Southern business owners to me"
Stop pointing fingers... start addressing the thread.
Nick
<strong>1. I don't think anyone has been saying that minority underachievement is due to direct racism, like teachers giving lower grades just because you're a minority. I'm sure you can find people that believe anything, but some people have made it seem like that's the current mainstream view, which is ridiculous.
2. There is a tendency to interpret some of these ideas as "see, it's blacks bringing it on themselves, it's not whites' fault!" But aren't these self-defeating attitudes really the legacy of past discrimination? It's only been a few generations since the civil rights changes of the 1960s, so there's bound to be some after-effects. It's silly to say that now that the laws are changed, all current generations of minorities should be equal to whites, and any underachievement is therefore "their fault.".</strong><hr></blockquote>
Is it really racism though when you have attributes that a community might not choose to adopt regardless of past injustice.
I mean segregation, which is what was ended in the 60's doesn't cause a lack of desire for learning or education. Even environmental factors can't contribute to that because as our nation grows more wealthy, what is considered acceptable changes as well.
For example the average house being built now is over 2,000 sq ft of living space. There are plenty of 2 bedroom 1 bath houses that were built in the 30-50's that are about 900 sq ft. American G.I's came home and bought them by the thousands.
Did they some how "suffer" because of this lack of living space?
An impoverished school today might only have 1 computer per 10 students instead of 1 per 5. We are not talking about a situation where schools have dramatic differences in quality, only substancially in quantity.
The school I worked at in Los Angeles had 99% of the students impoverished. Our classrooms still had books, computers, and supplies. (California was about 45th in spending at that time) We had enough to learn. Again maybe we used the computer lab twice a week instead of 3 times. That isn't what creates the type of disparity we are talking about.
Then again what about Asians? Many children from asian countries have a spoken and written language that isn't even remotely close to English yet they will pick it up and even head off to college within a few years.
I can give you a first hand experience of this. My wife and I hosted a Japanese exchange student for a year. She came to our home and went to the local high school. The counselor at the school wanted to dumb everything down for her. She didn't believe her capable since her English was very limited. I wouldn't hear of it and had them enroll her in the next math class she was supposed to take... Calculus.
She had a little trouble because the teacher was German and had somewhat limited English as well. However she still got a "B" and carried an impressive college prep classload. If things got too hard for her she would just call back to Japan and in a few days (I kid you not) some package would arrive with all sorts of study books for Calculus in Japanese.
She had a 3.0 GPA for the year and was a junior honor escort for the Senior graduation. (She was only a junior)
Not bad for literally not being able to speak hardly any English when she arrived I would think.
In Japan, she was a very average student. She didn't even go to university after she graduated.
The point is that she didn't need a generation or two. She didn't even need more than a year or two.
This happens very often in California. We have lot s of Korean teens for example who don't even arrive in the U.S. until they are 13 or so. They still make it into college and do just fine.
Finally look at other areas outside of education where minorities were repressed. Did it take generations for them to catch up? If anything the not only caught up, the surpassed most others in those fields.
Nick
[ 12-30-2002: Message edited by: trumptman ]</p>
Are we clear that knowing and using slang is not the same thing and not knowing it is even slang in the first place?
Being silly and using slang is not the same thing as that "slang" being your first and only means of communicating with the outside world.
<hr></blockquote>
You are making assumptions that you are more self-aware than most people. Typical elitist ignorance.
[quote]
It is not that you are "urban chic and hip" when you are a white acting black.
<hr></blockquote>
This statement shows you believe there is a solid line between black and white, and that no other races count in this example. That's a big problem and a symptom of using racial stereotypes to define your world. If I use a yiddish term, which is applicable to some situations, am I acting Jewish? The reality is, when you live in a racially integrated neighborhood (and not just black and white) you notice that what you considered 'Black behavior' tends to be more defined by the viewer's perception of skin color.
When I say urban chic and hip, there is much more complexity than 'black and white' because the designation comes from a multi-racial environment and an appreciation for culture (artistic and practical) and emphasis on higher education. It is limited understanding that finds it necessary to classify people in such basic groupings so a simple mind can understand them.
Don't try to oversimplify the life of a stranger by saying it's 'acting Black.' It only further demonstrates how you prejudge people and classify them.
[quote]
The point is that if you or your friend were asked to read or write a passage in formal English could you do so and do it well. If the answer is yes for you and no for your neighbor (regardless of color) then that is the difference in your success. It is not color nor speech alone, it is education.
<hr></blockquote>
The thing that convinced me the most that raising children in suburbs was a horrible idea was when I saw the low level of education these kids were recieving. Both in Rochester, Michigan and in Chicago's North Shore, I was amazed that the highly funded schools did little to challenge the students. When tutoring high school students in both areas, it blew me away that they had no understanding of the basics of writing. Never even heard of the 5 paragraph form. Amazing. And even when they handed in papers that I though were the shittiest I had ever read, they would get nothing lower than a C. In my more urban HS, with equal number of whites and blacks and an entire bilingual wing, that would never fly. Yet there were many minority students that you would think were stupid if you judged them by how they spoke.
So in terms of success, it is not simply education. Like I said, there is not doubt I would be treated very differently if I was Black but I acted the same.
In terms of academic achievement, sure there is an education problem in the Black community, but there is also a discrimination problem in academia that people are working to change. It is high-profile: Cornell West, for example.
Now I am not saying that there is not a massive literacy problem among minority students. I am just pointing out that sweeping generalizations are very faulty.
[quote]
"Oh that sounds like most Southern business owners to me"
<hr></blockquote>
and it does
The simple fact remains that the most limiting factor is a systematic misunderstanding on both sides of the race coin. Blacks and Whites assume things about members of the other race. Psychologically, people end up disregarding the things that defy that stereotype and focus on those traits that reinforce it.
I feel lucky that I am still surrounded by so many folks of different races (as I think about it, it's probably an even split of arab, black, latino, korean, filipino, african, western european), but to be honest I never think about it until I hear someone spew this stereotypical garbage that really has no basis in reality. I could easily provide example after example (and I have so many), but I feel like I'm being told that only ignorant sweeping generalizations are welcome in this thread.
And these sweeping generalizations that are made by individuals in so many inter-racial interactions is exactly what is holding blacks and whites from having an equal standing in every secotr of American society.
PS. I heard a funny story on NPR told by a Black woman who moved to France. She was standing in a long line for a movie and decided to try to cut. In America, she would commonly do this because White folks would be too frightened to say anything. But she was surprised when all the white French told her to go back to the end. She said that really made her feel at home...because she was treated just like anyone else.
[ 12-30-2002: Message edited by: giant ]</p>
[quote]Ogbu classifies minority groups into two categories.
"Voluntary" minorities came to the Unites States expecting to
improve their status through participation in such American
institutions as the education system. "Involuntary" minorities were
incorporated into American society against their will. An example of
this would be the introduction of black slaves into primarily the
southern United States.
Voluntary minorities came to America with expectation of
certain economic, political, and social benefits. While anticipating
that such benefits might come at some cost, the immigrants did not
measure their success or failure primarily by the standards of other
white Americans, but by the standards of their homelands. The
effects of discrimination were not ingrained in their culture. Even
when they were restricted to menial labor, they did not consider
themselves to be occupying the lowest rung of the American status
system. They saw their situation as temporary (Ogbu 150).
Educational and social opportunities were available almost
instantly for immigrants. These made it possible for voluntary
minorities to want to gain an education and to gain skills and
contacts in order to make it into the mainstream of the society
(Herman 19).
Voluntary minorities were more motivated to strive for
education in the United States. Since they weren't subjected to the
will-breaking conditions that involuntary minorities were often
experiencing they were more likely to condition themselves to the
hardships they may have faced in trying to receive literacy
education.
Voluntary minorities interpret the economic, political, and
social barriers set against them as a more or less temporary problem
that the can overcome with time through hard work and education.
They believe that they enjoy greater opportunities in the United
States for themselves or for their children. Even if they are
permitted only marginal jobs, they see themselves as better off than
in their homelands. Among such immigrants, schooling, knowledge,
and individual effort emerge as the primary avenues for getting
ahead. Volunteer minorities develop survival or alternative
strategies to cope with their problems. The survival strategies
include the option of returning to their former homelands or
emigrating to yet another place (Ogbu 150-152).
For involuntary minorities, there were no expectations of
economic, political, and social benefits. They resented their initial
incorporation by force and saw their future as grim in the absence of
collective struggle. Resenting exclusion from a status system
available to whites, they felt the power of white domination in
almost every domain (Ogbu 150).
In the case of the involuntary minorities being black slaves
there was no future. No matter how hard they worked, the
achievement was for the master, not their family or group. They
were in a condition of forced dependency. Food, clothing, shelter,
and all of the basic needs were provided by an outside force, the
master. Such conditions provided little opportunity for educational
improvement (Herman 19-20).
Involuntary minorities do not interpret the economic, social,
and political barriers against them as temporary. They do not find
solace in their menial jobs and low wages because they do not have a
"homeland" to compare with the situation in the United States.
Recognizing that they belong to a subordinate minority, they
compare their situation with that of their white American peers.
They tend to realize that it requires more than education and effort
to overcome the barriers set up against them. They develop survival
strategies to eliminate, lower, or circumvent specific barriers in
securing desirable jobs and in advancing in other ways (Ogbu 150-
154).
Generations of black Americans were regularly denied equal
employment opportunity through a job ceiling. Blacks with school
credentials comparable to those of their white peers were not hired
for similar jobs, were not paid equal wages, were not permitted to
advance on the basis of education and ability. By denying minorities
equal opportunity to enter the labor force, American society
discouraged whole generations, especially involuntary minorities,
from investing time and effort in education to maximize their
educational accomplishments. This may have discouraged such
minorities from developing a strong tradition of striving for academic
achievement (Ogbu 155-156).
<hr></blockquote>
<a href="http://eserver.org/courses/spring95/76-100g/DennisFela.html"; target="_blank">from here</a>
[ 12-30-2002: Message edited by: giant ]</p>
I'll just ignore you. You are obviously a troll who gets off on accusing people of things while providing no real insight to a conversation. On top of it you sit there are requote the entire article to which I linked.
Hope you enjoy your jollies,
Nick
thus, you ignore what the full article (not the abridged one that ends up getting responses like "minorities 'Dumb' themselves down") has to say and end up forming a racist and unrealistic image of those around you. amazing. No wonder Blacks have a hard time getting ahead.
I'm getting on your case for you generalizations that have nothing to do with Ogbu's actual research. If you were really interested in understanding the topic, you would have actually dug up the longer article and read that, but it seems you are just looking for a platform to say that Blacks have only themselves to blame for the racial restrictions they experience.
So read the long article and learn a thing or two. Ogbu comes to a very different conclusion than you or matsu, so maybe you should get straight what you are citing before you agree with it.
I bet those changes in public education Ogbu proposes are going to cost some tax dollars. You agree to that, too?
[ 12-30-2002: Message edited by: giant ]</p>
<strong>
but it seems you are just looking for a platform to say that Blacks have only themselves to blame for the racial restrictions they experience.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well I can tell you that in this community, they have a large share of the blame.
The murder rates among blacks in this community are staggering, and guess what? It's black on black crime. It's amazing that they live in squalor and yet manage to have the latest and most expensive jackets, sneakers and cars.
one teenager recently shot another to death because he wanted his jacket.
I live near an Occupational/Technical high school, which has an enrollment of predominantly black students. They are having problems with assaults on teachers, and on any given school day, you can see many of them hanging out in a nearby park, instead of learning in a classroom. this is not racism, it's observation. No it's not all of them, but it's enough to state that it's a major problem.
We also have a huge Hispanic community but they aren't killing each other, and perpetrating crimes against one another.
I'm not saying that there isn't some blame to be shared by the rest of our society, but at some point, you have to move on and do what's necessary to help yourself.
Is taking responsibility for your own actions and assuming the consequences such a foreign concept to people?
[ 12-30-2002: Message edited by: ryukyu ]</p>
<strong>ignoring is what you apparently do best.
thus, you ignore what the full article (not the abridged one that ends up getting responses like "minorities 'Dumb' themselves down") has to say and end up forming a racist and unrealistic image of those around you. amazing. No wonder Blacks have a hard time getting ahead.
I'm getting on your case for you generalizations that have nothing to do with Ogbu's actual research. If you were really interested in understanding the topic, you would have actually dug up the longer article and read that, but it seems you are just looking for a platform to say that Blacks have only themselves to blame for the racial restrictions they experience.
So read the long article and learn a thing or two. Ogbu comes to a very different conclusion than you or matsu, so maybe you should get straight what you are citing before you agree with it.
I bet those changes in public education Ogbu proposes are going to cost some tax dollars. You agree to that, too?
[ 12-30-2002: Message edited by: giant ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
You are perhaps the most ignorant person I have encountered. Your rage and namecalling at those who refuse to bend to your mindless prattle is laughable.
I never stated I agreed with the article. Of course that would require this little thing called reading comprehension. I linked to it, asked some probing questions, and then asked for opinions.
You came into my thread. You generalize about everyone and their background and then call just about everyone a racist.
Enjoy your mental masterbation, because you are the only one getting enjoyment from it.
Mod's please feel free to lock this thread, or move it and Giant to fireside where they belong now that he has turned it into a name-calling flamefest.
Nick
Stop the personal attacks NOW. We moderators and administrators are seriously fed up with the mugslinging like this. If things start getting out of hand from now on, we won't just be locking threads. We'll be suspending your accounts here as well.
This warning applies to everyone.
It really isn't about how large your house is. How many computers are in your lab. It's about parenting. It's about opportunity. I still feel like Blacks in many ways simply don't have as many doors open up compared to Whites. A "Wigger" can easily stop the slang and assimilate back into the Majority status. Latino's and Black cannot.
Hip Hop music is an interesting Microcosm in that it DOES influence the Black Community as a whole. When I grew up Run DMC wasn't rapping about shooting people. Suddenly overnight NWA and every Tom Dick and Harry started rapping about Murder. The damage has been immense. A whole new generation of negativity and anger. This is allowed because the ones making the real money aren't Black. They have nothing to lose.
[quote]Then again what about Asians? Many children from asian countries have a spoken and written language that isn't even remotely close to English yet they will pick it up and even head off to college within a few years. <hr></blockquote>
English isn't hard. Slang is nothing more than carving out a bit of uniqueness. I cannot compare Immigrants to Minorities. They have certain advantages that come into play. Many Asian Immigrants are not poor. Many also realize how hard life can be in other countries and bust their azzes. I respect that. But it's a far cry from growing up in a disheveled home with no Father.
[quote] Well I can tell you that in this community, they have a large share of the blame.
The murder rates among blacks in this community are staggering, and guess what? It's black on black crime. <hr></blockquote>
Yes and White crime is predominantly against other whites. Same with Asians same with Latinos. There's an unwritten rule out here. Kill your own kind. Tensions flare when the victim is that of a different color than the purpetrator. That's the way it goes.
[quote] I live near an Occupational/Technical high school, which has an enrollment of predominantly black students. They are having problems with assaults on teachers, and on any given school day, you can see many of them hanging out in a nearby park, instead of learning in a classroom. this is not racism, it's observation <hr></blockquote>
Just how would you be able to adequately "observe" this if you attend class religoiusly yourself? Would you be ignorant to what goes out "outside" the classroom, unless you were "hanging out" also? Your story sounds fishy.
The US has a value system that is readily apparent. Some things are simply acceptable.
1. Middle Eastern men are all potential Hijackers.
2. Black Men are useless Fathers/Husbands and lazy.
3. Latinos will have 10 kids stuffed into a 2 bedroom apt..but work hard.
4. Asian are intellectually superior. The Women are adored but the Men are physically inferior.
The beat goes on. Things are drastically improving but I think you will see the future offers the most improvement for Latinos. The fastest growing Race and one which will hold immense power in 40 years.
It's really a numbers game.
[ 12-30-2002: Message edited by: pscates ]</p>
<strong>
Just how would you be able to adequately "observe" this if you attend class religoiusly yourself? Would you be ignorant to what goes out "outside" the classroom, unless you were "hanging out" also? Your story sounds fishy.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Of course it sounds fishy. Why would you expect anyone on this board to actually tell the truth?
It's simple really.
I am not a student. I am a freelancer.
I have a window , where from my work area, there is a clear view of the park.
You say that the negativity in today's rap music is a terible influence, and I wholeheartedly agree. However, to blame it's proliferation on non-whites is absurd. The people who buy it and listen to it have a choice. They can reject the message as easily as accepting it.
[ 12-30-2002: Message edited by: ryukyu ]</p>
(Sleepy. Very sleepy...)
[ 12-30-2002: Message edited by: zMench ]</p>
But why do students, young people, have poor achievement? Stupidity. Kids don't need much of an excuse to act stupid, black communities have very poor mechanisms for discouraging juvenile stupidity. "Blackness" has unfortunately become tied to stereotypes (self propelled within the community) that liken "keeping it real" to keeping it poor/uneducated and highly unrealistic. Enacting "whiteness" does not come with a host of built in handicaps. So, fair or unfair, what black community leaders need to do is question the legitimacy of certain black myths.
<strong>
American cullture victemizes poor people, and all poor people suffer, not just blacks.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You might misspell a few words, but you'd get my vote in 2004.