The vast majority of hip-hop albums are sold to young white males. That is the target audience. That is the market buying them. So blaming black violence on hip-hop makes no sense. If it were to blame, then violence between white males would be much higher than that between blacks.
It really isn't about how large your house is. How many computers are in your lab. It's about parenting. It's about opportunity. I still feel like Blacks in many ways simply don't have as many doors open up compared to Whites. A "Wigger" can easily stop the slang and assimilate back into the Majority status. Latino's and Black cannot.
Hip Hop music is an interesting Microcosm in that it DOES influence the Black Community as a whole. When I grew up Run DMC wasn't rapping about shooting people. Suddenly overnight NWA and every Tom Dick and Harry started rapping about Murder. The damage has been immense. A whole new generation of negativity and anger. This is allowed because the ones making the real money aren't Black. They have nothing to lose.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
However white's aren't the only ones who can stop the slang and assimilate back into the majority. Actually I wouldn't even characterize it that way. I would call it acting in a manner that denotes you are attempting to be responsible and successful versus not.
I have seen this done by people of all cultures.
As for the effects of rap music. I tend to agree with the likes of Spike Lee in declaring it the modern day minstrel shows. Half of it has blacks acting like killers and the other half has them acting like clowns.
It effects both the white and black communities and their impressions of blacks. All of it in negative ways.
<strong>The vast majority of hip-hop albums are sold to young white males. That is the target audience. That is the market buying them. So blaming black violence on hip-hop makes no sense. If it were to blame, then violence between white males would be much higher than that between blacks.</strong><hr></blockquote>
No that target audience for Hip Hop albums are Males of any color who appreciate the genre. White Males happen to purchase a majority of the popular acts.
Black Violence comes from the ideals represented in Hip Hop which expouse pushin' phat whips and mackin' dimepieces. The thing is this "lifestyle" is wholly unobtainable to a vast majority of genre's listeners and even moreso from those who refuse to get a decent base education. A White Male knows he doesn't have to risk his azz to feed his ego. When's the last time you walked into a "sweatshop" and saw Whites? Even the lowliest White knows they don't have to sink that far.
[quote] "Blackness" has unfortunately become tied to stereotypes (self propelled within the community) that liken "keeping it real" to keeping it poor/uneducated and highly unrealistic. Enacting "whiteness" does not come with a host of built in handicaps. So, fair or unfair, what black community leaders need to do is question the legitimacy of certain black myths. <hr></blockquote>
Well "Whiteness" ,if we are to believe Minorities, can't be all that bad as recent History suggests that it takes you alot farther than "Blackness" does. It's hard to see people become manipulated by these myths.
[quote] They can reject the message as easily as accepting it.
<hr></blockquote>
Wish is were that simple. A child with bad parents is distinctly disadvantaged compared to a child with good parents. My Grandfather raised 7 children an not nary have had any problems yet I know families of 3 in which the Males have all done Prison Bids. The fruit doesn't fall too far if you know what I mean. However, I do place blame on record companies that push poison to Minorities over the airwaves. Remember using your logic one could say taking narcotics is a user choice as well. Still doesn't stop it from being illegal.
<strong>The vast majority of hip-hop albums are sold to young white males. That is the target audience. That is the market buying them. So blaming black violence on hip-hop makes no sense. If it were to blame, then violence between white males would be much higher than that between blacks.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Perhaps it doesn't affect the communities the same way. Many of these white buyers have no real way of relating to the music and thus acting out what it portrays. To them it is a portal to another place that they are visiting through that music. They think that place much more exciting then the farms or suburbs and so they enjoy visiting it through the music. Likewise many of the rap artists themselves act buffoonish and cartoonish. They possess considerable talent (some if them in my opinion) but what they are selling is a tragic comedy of whites laughing at black caricatures.(you know what I'm saying)
However to people of color who live in the actual places that the music "reflects." It could indeed have a greater influence in my opinion.
I use to live down the street from V.I.P records which was featured in several Snoop Dog videos. Long Beach Poly is where I did some of my student teacher visitation. In this community, it isn't a portal to a different place. It is the day to day reality. They call women ho's because that is what walks back and forth on PCH in front of V.I.P records all day.(along with their boyfriends, if that is what you would call them, who sell drugs to them and passerbys)
To them it shows someone who they believe has "made it." It shows a solution to the problems they see around them. It shows them a way out.
In this community, it could be viewed as a solution to the problems and could cause someone to take similar actions as are portrayed in the music.
The neighborhood they grow up in. Their parents. The nature of reality. Their poverty. The poor education offered by poor inner city schools. It's a sad story.
I wasn't blaming hip-hop. I could care less. And if we turn our attentions to whites, then I have more than a few things to say about them too. What is interesting is the way in which blackness and whiteness seem set up to facilitate different outcomes. You would think that somewhere along the line, the black community would wise up and notice that some of the things they hold dear virtually guarantee poverty. I don't mind democrats, but they might be largely to blame in this regard. Republicans can be blamed for other things, but not the promotion of a losing attitude.
And yet, when I turn on the news each night, what do I see again and again? Black men alleged to be killing, raping, mugging, stabbing, gangbanging, looting, rioting, selling drugs, pimping, ho-ing, having too many babies, fatherless, motherless, Godless, penniless. "The suspect is described as a black male... the suspect is described as a black male... THE SUSPECT IS DESCRIBED AS A BLACK MALE..." No matter what city I'm in, the news is always the same, the suspect always the same unidentified black male. I'm in Atlanta tonight, and I swear the police sketch of the black male suspect on TV looks just like the black male suspect I saw on the news last night in Denver and the night before in LA. In every sketch he's frowning, he's menacing - and he's wearing the same knit cap! Is it possible that it's the same black guy committing every crime in America?
I believe we've become so used to this image of the black man as predator that we are forever ruined by this brainwashing. In my first film, Roger & Me, a white woman on social security clubs a rabbit to death so that she can sell him as "meat" instead of as a pet. I wish I had a nickel for every time in the past 10 years that someone has come up to me and told me how "horrified" they were when they saw that "poor little cute bunny" bonked on the head. The scene, they say, made them physically sick. The Motion Picture Association of America gave Roger & Me an R [18] rating in response to that rabbit killing. Teachers write to me and say they have to edit that part out of the film, if they want to show it to their students.
But less than two minutes after the bunny lady does her deed, I included footage of a scene in which police in Flint, Michigan, shot a black man who was wearing a Superman cape and holding a plastic toy gun. Not once - not ever - has anyone said to me, "I can't believe you showed a black man being shot in your movie! How horrible! How disgusting! I couldn't sleep for weeks." After all, he was just a black man, not a cute, cuddly bunny. The ratings board saw absolutely nothing wrong with that scene. Why? Because it's normal, natural. We've become so accustomed to seeing black men killed - in the movies and on the evening news - that we now accept it as standard operating procedure. No big deal! That's what blacks do - kill and die. Ho-hum. Pass the butter.
Your point? How many white people die horrific movie deaths? This is why Micheal Moore is an idiot at times. Firstly, Rabbit is meat and vegetarians are idiots. With that out of the way, you can't ploy your politics both ways. In all likelihood a bunny killing is viewed as gratuitous (though it bothers me none) and an unjust police slaying is viewed (in film) as social commentary. We've been well conditioned to accept negative police images aswell, you know? If that isn't the case in the film in question, then fine. But Moore still makes some very weak arguments for his case. I ask again if anyone cares to count the amount of gratuitous white victimization in modern film, violence that (just like his black example) flashes past largely unnoticed.
You can always find what your looking for, even where it doesn't exist.
<strong>Your point? How many white people die horrific movie deaths? This is why Micheal Moore is an idiot at times. Firstly, Rabbit is meat and vegetarians are idiots. With that out of the way, you can't ploy your politics both ways. In all likelihood a bunny killing is viewed as gratuitous (though it bothers me none) and an unjust police slaying is viewed (in film) as social commentary. We've been well conditioned to accept negative police images aswell, you know? If that isn't the case in the film in question, then fine. But Moore still makes some very weak arguments for his case. I ask again if anyone cares to count the amount of gratuitous white victimization in modern film, violence that (just like his black example) flashes past largely unnoticed.
You can always find what your looking for, even where it doesn't exist.</strong><hr></blockquote>
And what am I supposed to get from that? It barely strengthens the original weaknesses of Moore's arguments while adding new errors along the way.
In any group the general pattern is to fear outsiders while being victimized by insiders. As the author points out, whites fear blacks but suffer mostly at the hands of whites. Blacks alternatively fear/mistrust whites, but suffer mostly at the hands of other blacks. We always victimize ourselves and villanize the other. Blacks are no different. Doubt me. How many blacks are killed by police? How many blacks are killed by other blacks? Which gets more play? Even by an essentially white media?
Rich and poor counts for a whole heck of a lot more than Black and White. Black and White should not even be compared to each other except to gauge their compatibilities with Rich and Poor.
You would think that somewhere along the line, the black community would wise up and notice that some of the things they hold dear virtually guarantee poverty. </strong><hr></blockquote>
What would these things be if you don't mind me asking?
What would these things be if you don't mind me asking?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't think this precludes any other group, minority or otherwise, but how about spending thousands on a car stereo instead of saving up for a future? But it's none of my business what others spend their 'hard-earned' money on.
I don't think this precludes any other group, minority or otherwise, but how about spending thousands on a car stereo instead of saving up for a future? But it's none of my business what others spend their 'hard-earned' money on.</strong><hr></blockquote>
His statement was specifically about the "black community" though, and if anyone is trying to equate your example with the "black community", then they're making a racist claim.
First off, I think most people on this board are just ignorant to the reality of the situation, most likely because they've been sheltered in their white suburban communities.
Inner city skools are sh*t. Going through them for the better part of my 19 years, I can tell you that the test results are piss poor. The curriculum is awful and many of the teachers in the Cleveland area simply don?t want to teach in Cleveland public skools. The same resources don?t exist. I came through it. I'm on the other side of things now.
Despite the fact that inner city skools aren?t exactly prep academies, you CAN achieve. Did I achieve through learning at skool? No, I've never liked skool and if I had a choice today I would not be in college right now. What I don?t like is the fact that many of these kids take the attitude that they shouldn?t have to learn. They just have to use the race card, that's all. A lot of them don?t even take the advantage of a free education, so how do they expect to achieve anything?
It's not just a "black" thing. There is a high school in the Cleveland public schools district that is predominantly WHITE, yet they score terribly on state proficiencies. And the white scores aint a whole hell of a lot better either, I can tell you that.
There is validity in the idea that certain factors inhibit black performance in schools, but as usual the focus is placed in the wrong place.
If one looks at the facts, only 17% of people between age 25 are in school. So in reality as far as all Americans are concerned most of "us" are underachievers.
The second problem with this idea of pervasive black underperformance is that most media outlets only focus on the mega stars of entertainment. while not paying attention to those individuals who are in academia or business. So this warps the perceptions of blacks in general, who by the most general numbers have 2/3 of their population residing in what is refered to as "middle class."
now as for the failures in education, one has to look at some facts:
it is a myth that poor black parents generally do not support the education of their children. In fact, studies have shown ( and are available on the net for those who look, Time wise has an excellent article on this) that pooer black parents spend as much as and in some cases more time, on average, than white parents in school work prep and the like. so if t here is failure where is it.
The problems are in schools and those minoriy of people who choose to follow a life of crime. Recall the Crack cocain epidemic of the eighties ( which perhaps most of you are too young to even know about). The rise of gun violence and gangs that accompained this phenomenon had a direct impact on RECENT school failures as students literally had their lives threatened if they did not join up or act in a manner that protected them from gangs. Some of this resulted in low academic performace by students who often tested as extremely bright by IQ tests. It should be noted that the crack epidemic that occured during the Regan years have been documented as being caused by the US govt. So it is quite proper to place some blame on "THE MAN."
It should be noted that whites and Asians afflicted with the same socio economic conditions also fail at comperable rates.
As for cultural issues that make academic "success" seem "white" one would have to note that this is a strictly American phenomenon. NO other black group in the world expresses this same phenom. Therefore it is reasonable to suspect the unique experiences of AA's in the United States. Remember that it was only 50 years ago that Blacks were allowed to attend so called integrated schools. This after centeries of legal denials to writing,reading and even rudamentary education. No other group in the United States has had to deal with that kind of legacy. That it could continue 50 odd years later should not even be surprising. But then again i think that many here lack the age and information to understand that perspective.
And I'd like to close by addressing the person who claimed that caucasians somehow have made some great contribution to mankind, on their own. As far as the United States is concerned, many of the key industral inventions that have propelled the US ijnto the industrial powerhouse it is/was was the result of inventions by black persons who were later legally prevented from taking advantage of those inventions:
for example, theCotton Gin which revolutionized the processing of cotton was a black invention. The self lubricating machine was a black invention, the Internal combustion engine was also a black invention.
In antiquity it should be noted that the writing system used by "the west" was based on the phoenecians who were self described as "brown people." The numbering system we use is based on Mathematics resurfaced from Egyptians and improved by Arabs. The enture Judeo-Chrfistian system of religion has been lifted from Egypt and Mesopotamia...you know, that place Bush wants to bomb.
And those lovely Atomic bombs that many of you wish to drop on various Arabs was invented by a Black man. The current father of high speed computing is non other than a Nigerian.
to close, I really think some of you ought to stop reading articles and go to a library and do some real research into the social system of Slavery and Jim Crowism before you comment on topics that by your own writing you know little if anything about, other than what you see on tv.
<strong>Did I say that they were dumb?[/b]<hr></blockquote>
They're stupid.
Yes. Yes you did.
[quote][qb]Some of you seem to think stupidity is genetic, or you must think that I think it to make your case for racism.</strong><hr></blockquote>
No, I think making statements like "They're stupid." and then drawig some very simplistic and ignorant generalization is the textbook definition of racism.
[quote]I makes your answer sound racist unless you carefully tailor it against that appearance. I don't do that.<hr></blockquote>
Yes, you say intellectually stimulating things like "They're stupid."
I'm afraid I can't help you if you don't see how that's a blatantly racist statement. I understand your point, but you seem to lose yourself in your own message. You mention how ebonics is a factor in failure yet don't notice how your own "style" kills your own credibility and point.
You talk about carefully crafting statements as if it's a bad thing.
Dumb originally means basically unintelligent and lacking the power of speech, like an animal or simple tool. It has aquired a certain synomity with stupid, but that is not my fault. A dumb beast cannot help what it is, you see this when (up to probably 40 years ago) we spoke of the mentally retarded in lay terms like slow (or dumb) which is closer to it's meaning.
Stupid also has a sense of basic unintelligence about it, but it involves more foolishness, thickness or obtuseness, carelessness or frivolity.
ASIDE: "Stupid is as stupid does" in Forest Gump always kinda bothered me, as Gump is closer to dumb in the sense that his condition cannot be helped, yet we might just chalk this up to sayings being what they are, or Groom might have had a specific purpose, iDunno.
Which one better matches minority youths who fail? Some genetic predisposition -- dumbness -- or stupidity? Which one better matches white kids who fail? I say stupidity, and what goes for one, goes for the other too. But the study/line of thinking in the thread asked about minority children specifically. Some might accept that as a more directed investigation of why kids (in general) fail, but we are not obligated to accept that directive.
For gamesmanship, I accepted it, and that is a danger because I did not modify my answer much beyond confining myself to statements about minority youths who underachieve. I can include the missing lines about white youths, but some (probably themselves offended) have already done that as a response. And, I might add, done so with a depressing absence of flair. Why does it beg for comparison to white children? Is the question of specific differences not as important as those with a vested interest would imply? You can learn by a taxonomy of differences, but you can also learn from similarity. In this case, you can learn more from the similarities between all low achievers, than from excusing one race or another in an effort to tiptoe through a political minefield. Better to explode everything right away, not for political aspirants perhaps, but a good source of fun here. Useful too, not only because you cannot punch me in the face, but also because text might slow us down just enough to make fun little examples out of ourselves.
When you ask for black or white exclusively, you should not be too offended to hear the answer you called on rather than mollifying comparisons to others. If one asks about minority youths who succeed they will not be so offended to hear a specific reply about their children only.
I may be the only one here with a specifically non-racist outlook; I would be, if I didn't know that some of you are trying too hard. Perhaps my statements are carefully crafted to feign racism instead? Nah, I'm just here to empty the spit valve of my mental trumpet. This is, afterall, the internet -- I would feel bad, I think, if I contributed to much to it's legitimacy.
Stupid also has a sense of basic unintelligence about it, but it involves more foolishness, thickness or obtuseness, carelessness or frivolity. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Basically what you've said is that a person in the minority who wears corn rows and speaks with an "accent" is stupid.
Comments
<strong>Nick,
It really isn't about how large your house is. How many computers are in your lab. It's about parenting. It's about opportunity. I still feel like Blacks in many ways simply don't have as many doors open up compared to Whites. A "Wigger" can easily stop the slang and assimilate back into the Majority status. Latino's and Black cannot.
Hip Hop music is an interesting Microcosm in that it DOES influence the Black Community as a whole. When I grew up Run DMC wasn't rapping about shooting people. Suddenly overnight NWA and every Tom Dick and Harry started rapping about Murder. The damage has been immense. A whole new generation of negativity and anger. This is allowed because the ones making the real money aren't Black. They have nothing to lose.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
However white's aren't the only ones who can stop the slang and assimilate back into the majority. Actually I wouldn't even characterize it that way. I would call it acting in a manner that denotes you are attempting to be responsible and successful versus not.
I have seen this done by people of all cultures.
As for the effects of rap music. I tend to agree with the likes of Spike Lee in declaring it the modern day minstrel shows. Half of it has blacks acting like killers and the other half has them acting like clowns.
It effects both the white and black communities and their impressions of blacks. All of it in negative ways.
Nick
<strong>The vast majority of hip-hop albums are sold to young white males. That is the target audience. That is the market buying them. So blaming black violence on hip-hop makes no sense. If it were to blame, then violence between white males would be much higher than that between blacks.</strong><hr></blockquote>
No that target audience for Hip Hop albums are Males of any color who appreciate the genre. White Males happen to purchase a majority of the popular acts.
Black Violence comes from the ideals represented in Hip Hop which expouse pushin' phat whips and mackin' dimepieces. The thing is this "lifestyle" is wholly unobtainable to a vast majority of genre's listeners and even moreso from those who refuse to get a decent base education. A White Male knows he doesn't have to risk his azz to feed his ego. When's the last time you walked into a "sweatshop" and saw Whites? Even the lowliest White knows they don't have to sink that far.
[quote] "Blackness" has unfortunately become tied to stereotypes (self propelled within the community) that liken "keeping it real" to keeping it poor/uneducated and highly unrealistic. Enacting "whiteness" does not come with a host of built in handicaps. So, fair or unfair, what black community leaders need to do is question the legitimacy of certain black myths. <hr></blockquote>
Well "Whiteness" ,if we are to believe Minorities, can't be all that bad as recent History suggests that it takes you alot farther than "Blackness" does. It's hard to see people become manipulated by these myths.
[quote] They can reject the message as easily as accepting it.
<hr></blockquote>
Wish is were that simple. A child with bad parents is distinctly disadvantaged compared to a child with good parents. My Grandfather raised 7 children an not nary have had any problems yet I know families of 3 in which the Males have all done Prison Bids. The fruit doesn't fall too far if you know what I mean. However, I do place blame on record companies that push poison to Minorities over the airwaves. Remember using your logic one could say taking narcotics is a user choice as well. Still doesn't stop it from being illegal.
<strong>The vast majority of hip-hop albums are sold to young white males. That is the target audience. That is the market buying them. So blaming black violence on hip-hop makes no sense. If it were to blame, then violence between white males would be much higher than that between blacks.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Perhaps it doesn't affect the communities the same way. Many of these white buyers have no real way of relating to the music and thus acting out what it portrays. To them it is a portal to another place that they are visiting through that music. They think that place much more exciting then the farms or suburbs and so they enjoy visiting it through the music. Likewise many of the rap artists themselves act buffoonish and cartoonish. They possess considerable talent (some if them in my opinion) but what they are selling is a tragic comedy of whites laughing at black caricatures.(you know what I'm saying)
However to people of color who live in the actual places that the music "reflects." It could indeed have a greater influence in my opinion.
I use to live down the street from V.I.P records which was featured in several Snoop Dog videos. Long Beach Poly is where I did some of my student teacher visitation. In this community, it isn't a portal to a different place. It is the day to day reality. They call women ho's because that is what walks back and forth on PCH in front of V.I.P records all day.(along with their boyfriends, if that is what you would call them, who sell drugs to them and passerbys)
To them it shows someone who they believe has "made it." It shows a solution to the problems they see around them. It shows them a way out.
In this community, it could be viewed as a solution to the problems and could cause someone to take similar actions as are portrayed in the music.
Nick
<strong>
Remember using your logic one could say taking narcotics is a user choice as well.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Are you saying people who use narcotics didn't make a choice?
<a href="http://books.guardian.co.uk/extracts/story/0,6761,676072,00.html"; target="_blank">http://books.guardian.co.uk/extracts/story/0,6761,676072,00.html</a>;
And yet, when I turn on the news each night, what do I see again and again? Black men alleged to be killing, raping, mugging, stabbing, gangbanging, looting, rioting, selling drugs, pimping, ho-ing, having too many babies, fatherless, motherless, Godless, penniless. "The suspect is described as a black male... the suspect is described as a black male... THE SUSPECT IS DESCRIBED AS A BLACK MALE..." No matter what city I'm in, the news is always the same, the suspect always the same unidentified black male. I'm in Atlanta tonight, and I swear the police sketch of the black male suspect on TV looks just like the black male suspect I saw on the news last night in Denver and the night before in LA. In every sketch he's frowning, he's menacing - and he's wearing the same knit cap! Is it possible that it's the same black guy committing every crime in America?
I believe we've become so used to this image of the black man as predator that we are forever ruined by this brainwashing. In my first film, Roger & Me, a white woman on social security clubs a rabbit to death so that she can sell him as "meat" instead of as a pet. I wish I had a nickel for every time in the past 10 years that someone has come up to me and told me how "horrified" they were when they saw that "poor little cute bunny" bonked on the head. The scene, they say, made them physically sick. The Motion Picture Association of America gave Roger & Me an R [18] rating in response to that rabbit killing. Teachers write to me and say they have to edit that part out of the film, if they want to show it to their students.
But less than two minutes after the bunny lady does her deed, I included footage of a scene in which police in Flint, Michigan, shot a black man who was wearing a Superman cape and holding a plastic toy gun. Not once - not ever - has anyone said to me, "I can't believe you showed a black man being shot in your movie! How horrible! How disgusting! I couldn't sleep for weeks." After all, he was just a black man, not a cute, cuddly bunny. The ratings board saw absolutely nothing wrong with that scene. Why? Because it's normal, natural. We've become so accustomed to seeing black men killed - in the movies and on the evening news - that we now accept it as standard operating procedure. No big deal! That's what blacks do - kill and die. Ho-hum. Pass the butter.
[ 01-01-2003: Message edited by: ewwhite ]</p>
You can always find what your looking for, even where it doesn't exist.
<strong>Your point? How many white people die horrific movie deaths? This is why Micheal Moore is an idiot at times. Firstly, Rabbit is meat and vegetarians are idiots. With that out of the way, you can't ploy your politics both ways. In all likelihood a bunny killing is viewed as gratuitous (though it bothers me none) and an unjust police slaying is viewed (in film) as social commentary. We've been well conditioned to accept negative police images aswell, you know? If that isn't the case in the film in question, then fine. But Moore still makes some very weak arguments for his case. I ask again if anyone cares to count the amount of gratuitous white victimization in modern film, violence that (just like his black example) flashes past largely unnoticed.
You can always find what your looking for, even where it doesn't exist.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Read the weblink.
In any group the general pattern is to fear outsiders while being victimized by insiders. As the author points out, whites fear blacks but suffer mostly at the hands of whites. Blacks alternatively fear/mistrust whites, but suffer mostly at the hands of other blacks. We always victimize ourselves and villanize the other. Blacks are no different. Doubt me. How many blacks are killed by police? How many blacks are killed by other blacks? Which gets more play? Even by an essentially white media?
Rich and poor counts for a whole heck of a lot more than Black and White. Black and White should not even be compared to each other except to gauge their compatibilities with Rich and Poor.
Here's a funny radio story. It long but well worth it: <a href="http://66.159.64.67:8080/ramgen/documentaries/y/ypahmts.rm"; target="_blank">Young People Against Heavy Metal T-Shirts</a>
[ 01-02-2003: Message edited by: giant ]</p>
<strong>
You would think that somewhere along the line, the black community would wise up and notice that some of the things they hold dear virtually guarantee poverty. </strong><hr></blockquote>
What would these things be if you don't mind me asking?
<strong>
What would these things be if you don't mind me asking?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I don't think this precludes any other group, minority or otherwise, but how about spending thousands on a car stereo instead of saving up for a future? But it's none of my business what others spend their 'hard-earned' money on.
<strong>
I don't think this precludes any other group, minority or otherwise, but how about spending thousands on a car stereo instead of saving up for a future? But it's none of my business what others spend their 'hard-earned' money on.</strong><hr></blockquote>
His statement was specifically about the "black community" though, and if anyone is trying to equate your example with the "black community", then they're making a racist claim.
First off, I think most people on this board are just ignorant to the reality of the situation, most likely because they've been sheltered in their white suburban communities.
Inner city skools are sh*t. Going through them for the better part of my 19 years, I can tell you that the test results are piss poor. The curriculum is awful and many of the teachers in the Cleveland area simply don?t want to teach in Cleveland public skools. The same resources don?t exist. I came through it. I'm on the other side of things now.
Despite the fact that inner city skools aren?t exactly prep academies, you CAN achieve. Did I achieve through learning at skool? No, I've never liked skool and if I had a choice today I would not be in college right now. What I don?t like is the fact that many of these kids take the attitude that they shouldn?t have to learn. They just have to use the race card, that's all. A lot of them don?t even take the advantage of a free education, so how do they expect to achieve anything?
It's not just a "black" thing. There is a high school in the Cleveland public schools district that is predominantly WHITE, yet they score terribly on state proficiencies. And the white scores aint a whole hell of a lot better either, I can tell you that.
There is validity in the idea that certain factors inhibit black performance in schools, but as usual the focus is placed in the wrong place.
If one looks at the facts, only 17% of people between age 25 are in school. So in reality as far as all Americans are concerned most of "us" are underachievers.
The second problem with this idea of pervasive black underperformance is that most media outlets only focus on the mega stars of entertainment. while not paying attention to those individuals who are in academia or business. So this warps the perceptions of blacks in general, who by the most general numbers have 2/3 of their population residing in what is refered to as "middle class."
now as for the failures in education, one has to look at some facts:
it is a myth that poor black parents generally do not support the education of their children. In fact, studies have shown ( and are available on the net for those who look, Time wise has an excellent article on this) that pooer black parents spend as much as and in some cases more time, on average, than white parents in school work prep and the like. so if t here is failure where is it.
The problems are in schools and those minoriy of people who choose to follow a life of crime. Recall the Crack cocain epidemic of the eighties ( which perhaps most of you are too young to even know about). The rise of gun violence and gangs that accompained this phenomenon had a direct impact on RECENT school failures as students literally had their lives threatened if they did not join up or act in a manner that protected them from gangs. Some of this resulted in low academic performace by students who often tested as extremely bright by IQ tests. It should be noted that the crack epidemic that occured during the Regan years have been documented as being caused by the US govt. So it is quite proper to place some blame on "THE MAN."
It should be noted that whites and Asians afflicted with the same socio economic conditions also fail at comperable rates.
As for cultural issues that make academic "success" seem "white" one would have to note that this is a strictly American phenomenon. NO other black group in the world expresses this same phenom. Therefore it is reasonable to suspect the unique experiences of AA's in the United States. Remember that it was only 50 years ago that Blacks were allowed to attend so called integrated schools. This after centeries of legal denials to writing,reading and even rudamentary education. No other group in the United States has had to deal with that kind of legacy. That it could continue 50 odd years later should not even be surprising. But then again i think that many here lack the age and information to understand that perspective.
And I'd like to close by addressing the person who claimed that caucasians somehow have made some great contribution to mankind, on their own. As far as the United States is concerned, many of the key industral inventions that have propelled the US ijnto the industrial powerhouse it is/was was the result of inventions by black persons who were later legally prevented from taking advantage of those inventions:
for example, theCotton Gin which revolutionized the processing of cotton was a black invention. The self lubricating machine was a black invention, the Internal combustion engine was also a black invention.
In antiquity it should be noted that the writing system used by "the west" was based on the phoenecians who were self described as "brown people." The numbering system we use is based on Mathematics resurfaced from Egyptians and improved by Arabs. The enture Judeo-Chrfistian system of religion has been lifted from Egypt and Mesopotamia...you know, that place Bush wants to bomb.
And those lovely Atomic bombs that many of you wish to drop on various Arabs was invented by a Black man. The current father of high speed computing is non other than a Nigerian.
to close, I really think some of you ought to stop reading articles and go to a library and do some real research into the social system of Slavery and Jim Crowism before you comment on topics that by your own writing you know little if anything about, other than what you see on tv.
<strong>Did I say that they were dumb?[/b]<hr></blockquote>
They're stupid.
Yes. Yes you did.
[quote][qb]Some of you seem to think stupidity is genetic, or you must think that I think it to make your case for racism.</strong><hr></blockquote>
No, I think making statements like "They're stupid." and then drawig some very simplistic and ignorant generalization is the textbook definition of racism.
[quote]I makes your answer sound racist unless you carefully tailor it against that appearance. I don't do that.<hr></blockquote>
Yes, you say intellectually stimulating things like "They're stupid."
I'm afraid I can't help you if you don't see how that's a blatantly racist statement. I understand your point, but you seem to lose yourself in your own message. You mention how ebonics is a factor in failure yet don't notice how your own "style" kills your own credibility and point.
You talk about carefully crafting statements as if it's a bad thing.
Stupid also has a sense of basic unintelligence about it, but it involves more foolishness, thickness or obtuseness, carelessness or frivolity.
ASIDE: "Stupid is as stupid does" in Forest Gump always kinda bothered me, as Gump is closer to dumb in the sense that his condition cannot be helped, yet we might just chalk this up to sayings being what they are, or Groom might have had a specific purpose, iDunno.
Which one better matches minority youths who fail? Some genetic predisposition -- dumbness -- or stupidity? Which one better matches white kids who fail? I say stupidity, and what goes for one, goes for the other too. But the study/line of thinking in the thread asked about minority children specifically. Some might accept that as a more directed investigation of why kids (in general) fail, but we are not obligated to accept that directive.
For gamesmanship, I accepted it, and that is a danger because I did not modify my answer much beyond confining myself to statements about minority youths who underachieve. I can include the missing lines about white youths, but some (probably themselves offended) have already done that as a response. And, I might add, done so with a depressing absence of flair.
When you ask for black or white exclusively, you should not be too offended to hear the answer you called on rather than mollifying comparisons to others. If one asks about minority youths who succeed they will not be so offended to hear a specific reply about their children only.
I may be the only one here with a specifically non-racist outlook; I would be, if I didn't know that some of you are trying too hard. Perhaps my statements are carefully crafted to feign racism instead? Nah, I'm just here to empty the spit valve of my mental trumpet. This is, afterall, the internet -- I would feel bad, I think, if I contributed to much to it's legitimacy.
[ 01-03-2003: Message edited by: Matsu ]</p>
<strong>
Stupid also has a sense of basic unintelligence about it, but it involves more foolishness, thickness or obtuseness, carelessness or frivolity. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Basically what you've said is that a person in the minority who wears corn rows and speaks with an "accent" is stupid.