Here's a point no ones brought up. Wouldn't it just make more sense to admit that there may be biological differences that make Blacks a little less intelligent than Whites or Asians?
I mean there is strength in numbers and the number here don't seem to be lying. There are no Black Nations strong in Engineering or Technical Industry which require the Best and the Brightest. Wouldn't this add credence to the ideology that Blacks may be physically superior but be deficient intellectually? I realize the book The Bell Curve is commonly referred to as Junk Science but that's mainly because they Authors had no real expertise in the area. What say ye?
<strong>Here's a point no ones brought up. Wouldn't it just make more sense to admit that there may be biological differences that make Blacks a little less intelligent than Whites or Asians?
I mean there is strength in numbers and the number here don't seem to be lying. There are no Black Nations strong in Engineering or Technical Industry which require the Best and the Brightest. Wouldn't this add credence to the ideology that Blacks may be physically superior but be deficient intellectually? I realize the book The Bell Curve is commonly referred to as Junk Science but that's mainly because they Authors had no real expertise in the area. What say ye?</strong><hr></blockquote>
There might be cultural differences about education that manifest themselves in test results, but I would hardly say that can be proof of a physical difference.
I would be much more apt to look at differences in cultural beliefs and attitudes. American blacks for all the complaints about injustice are still the richest people of color in the world as a whole. Many here have wealth that they could never acquire in Africa.
There is validity in the idea that certain factors inhibit black performance in schools, but as usual the focus is placed in the wrong place.
now as for the failures in education, one has to look at some facts:
it is a myth that poor black parents generally do not support the education of their children. In fact, studies have shown ( and are available on the net for those who look, Time wise has an excellent article on this) that pooer black parents spend as much as and in some cases more time, on average, than white parents in school work prep and the like. so if t here is failure where is it.
The problems are in schools and those minoriy of people who choose to follow a life of crime. Recall the Crack cocain epidemic of the eighties ( which perhaps most of you are too young to even know about). The rise of gun violence and gangs that accompained this phenomenon had a direct impact on RECENT school failures as students literally had their lives threatened if they did not join up or act in a manner that protected them from gangs. Some of this resulted in low academic performace by students who often tested as extremely bright by IQ tests. It should be noted that the crack epidemic that occured during the Regan years have been documented as being caused by the US govt. So it is quite proper to place some blame on "THE MAN."
It should be noted that whites and Asians afflicted with the same socio economic conditions also fail at comperable rates.
As for cultural issues that make academic "success" seem "white" one would have to note that this is a strictly American phenomenon. NO other black group in the world expresses this same phenom. Therefore it is reasonable to suspect the unique experiences of AA's in the United States. Remember that it was only 50 years ago that Blacks were allowed to attend so called integrated schools. This after centeries of legal denials to writing,reading and even rudamentary education. No other group in the United States has had to deal with that kind of legacy. That it could continue 50 odd years later should not even be surprising. But then again i think that many here lack the age and information to understand that perspective.
to close, I really think some of you ought to stop reading articles and go to a library and do some real research into the social system of Slavery and Jim Crowism before you comment on topics that by your own writing you know little if anything about, other than what you see on tv.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Has anyone mentioned to you that probably the most flawed debating technique is "If you knew what I knew, you would do what I do." That and the fact that many of the things you post sound like they were simply false statesments you believed from op-ed columns really do not make a compelling argument.
Let's start with some of your "facts."
You say that black parents spend as much time or more than other ethnicities on helping their children with homework and thus the system itself must be racist. However that is simply not true. When you look up factors like drop out rate, number of hours of television watched per week, number of times parents have read to their child per week, you find clear differences among ethnicities that lead to clear academic differences as well.
Also did you also factor in differences in the number of parents in the home? If a household is headed up by only one parent who spends one hour a day helping their child, versus a two parent household where each parent helps 45 minutes, then your research would not account for a very significant factor and that is that only having one parent at home makes you 6 times more likely to be impoverished. Regardless of race this factor can make a significant difference in the education of a child.
I find your ideas about integration, education and "acting white" subtly racist. Your contentions about no other group experiencing similar conditions is just patently wrong. The Ethnic Chinese experienced legal discrimination that was at least as crippling as slavery. Imagine laws saying you are barred from basically any profession where you can make a living. Imagine laws saying you cannot bring over and marry someone of your own ethnicity. When you think of stereotypes like "chinese laundry" it is because that was literally one of the few places they were allowed to work because white Americans resented the success they produced in every area the entereed.
Secondly there were profoundly successful black only schools before integration. There were schools where the average black school was higher than the average white score in the same cities. The contention that a black student somehow learns better when sitting next to a white student is silly. There are no magical qualities about who you sit by.
As for crime, that is something that has to be addressed within the community. Black civil rights leaders and community leaders have given a pass to criminal acts for as long as I can remember simply because of statistical disparities in prison populations. There have been no calls for insuring thing like marriage within the community, not even from so called "reverends." There has been no condemnation of criminals and crime.
This is a racial issue but it is also a cultural issues. Think about the recent terrorist attacks in the U.S. We still have not seen mass codemnation of terrorism by U.S. Islamic groups for example. Instead we get piece after piece about racial profiling and how we could all be terrorists.
The rebuttal is that when whites commit a crime it doesn't happen. I say bull to that. When the Oklahoma City bombing happened, there was repeated codemnation of anyone or thing that would even associate with that viewpoint. Militia groups in general were repeatedly harassed, mocked and their viewpoints scrutinized to insure no further problems would occur.
When Columbine occured, video games, rock groups, whatever might be the cause, right or wrong was gone over until people were satisfied (deluded or not) that it might not happen again.
The criminality and drug trade that occurs within these communities is glorified and not condemned.
It is not scrutinized. It is hidden and ignored. When other communities do try to attack these factors were are told we are racist and to leave it alone.
Now perhaps you can give us a reply that doesn't personally attack us by calling anyone who disagrees with you ignorant, tv watching illiterates.
the simple fact that you even THINK that anything that happened to the Chinese in America is the SAME as or had the same results as Slavery is enough proof that you have NO IDEA what you are talking about.
I'm not engaging in a debate here. What I am pointing out is simply that you and others have no basis in knowledge or experience to comprehend the information you choose to opin on.
It is like a Windows user who has read about a Mac and perhaps seen a few and suddenly thinks themselves qualified to argue about the pros and cons of using a Mac with a person who has used one for 10 years.
But I'll tell you what, since it makes you feel better to assume that a) my post is the sum total of what I know and b) that I'm actually debating this topic
<strong>Stupid also has a sense of basic unintelligence about it, but it involves more foolishness, thickness or obtuseness, carelessness or frivolity.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Those entire two paragraphs to say what exactly? The definitions of the words.
I'm sorry, Matsu, but both of them are incorrect and either one used in that sense is very clear racism.
"I didn't call him a retard, I called him a moron!"
You made the generalization that not only were minorities stupid, but further drew all kinds of idiotic generalizations.
Your credibility is shot, it's best that you just leave this thread alone and hope it is forgotten with time.
I know you think all this stuff you're saying has an intellectual "against-the-grain" slant to it but it's good 'ol boy attitudes repackaged.
[quote]<strong>I can include the missing lines about white youths,</strong><hr></blockquote>
When trying to whitewash your racist statements, but in other justifications you moan about being constrained by the original topic. Pick your poison; it was an idiotic and racist statement.
[quote]<strong>Better to explode everything right away, not for political aspirants perhaps, but a good source of fun here.</strong><hr></blockquote>
"Better to explode everything right away." - The attitude of the sociopath that assumes everyone is also a sociopath.
Some people don't think in racist generalizations, so "They're stupid" might not really be sitting in the shadows of their mind waiting to come out.
Mountains of verbiage to hide obvious logical flaws may "mollify" some, but your point is far too simplistic to actually be a valid point.
[quote]<strong>I may be the only one here with a specifically non-racist outlook; I would be, if I didn't know that some of you are trying too hard.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Once again you make the assumption that everyone thinks like you, that we're hiding and repressing the desire to simply and idiotically state "They're stupid."
<strong>We need move schools like this one....</strong><hr></blockquote>
"What's really sad is that the big high school in the area, Castlemont, is so dreadful that kids might be better off at Social Justice, where at least teachers notice whether they show up or not."
That says a lot unfortunately.
And groverat, thanks for your words. Better said than I could do.
i would just like to start by saying that i think this is a wonderful topic...
after reading all these posts i am interested in seeing how you all define racism. it has been my experience in the past that people can have vastly different definitions.
i would just like to start by saying that i think this is a wonderful topic...
after reading all these posts i am interested in seeing how you all define racism. it has been my experience in the past that people can have vastly different definitions.
<strong>i would just like to start by saying that i think this is a wonderful topic...
after reading all these posts i am interested in seeing how you all define racism. it has been my experience in the past that people can have vastly different definitions.
so, how do you define racism?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I define racism as the "Promotion" of one Race over all others. Therefore Racism is and can be used both in benevolent and malevolent ways. The problems stem from the fact that some view Racism as always negative and that's just not the case. Just because my own perference is for Asian Women(hypothetically speaking) does not mean that I'm not Racist but it also doesn't mean that I do harm to other races by my actions. Governments must balance our natural Xenophobic ways which they've done with EO programs and the like. Here in Washington State I200 has passed disallowing preferential treatment for Gov contracts etc and almost overnight any gains that Minority ran businesses had made where pretty much wiped out.
The Smart Government(oxymoron?) is one that can effectively balance the Tierany of the Majority whilst keeping the peace.
"I didn't call him a retard, I called him a moron!"
</strong><hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> That's an excellent analogy, actually. Originally, moron describes a developmental stage, though now it has aquired the meaning "idiot" there was a time when moron was just another rung of intelligence on the developmental ladder, a very precise technical term, actually. You, me, your children... were all morons at one point [8-12 iThink] (without negative connotation), though we kept on developing out of it, well some of us, for myself, I enjoy it. Retard, probably pejorative for retarded, describes a backwards or permanently stunted state. Just because you use words to say the same thing doesn't mean that they do.
Further up someone posted that I think anyone who dresses different and has an accent is stupid. Au contrare, some of the smartest people I know speak with accents, Egyptian, North African, South American, European and Chinese. The difference with these people is that they're making an attempt to speak a standard language. It pains me greatly that people view "ebonics" as a language that imparts it's own accent. There's absolutely no excuse for it. Children grown up in a North American city should be able to appreciate the standard terms and at least HS level registers/vocabs. If you come to an interview and say "a-aight" amidst sucking your teeth, you can be pretty sure you're not getting the job. Corn rows? Just an example to propel an easily identifiable stereotype -- in themselves harmless, but if you layer the right costume with the right (or wrong) speech there you have your guarantee of failure and poverty.
I don't even think it's fair, but it remains a question of practicality. Knowing that skin color might easily be stacked against you, do you make an effort to look presentable and to speak intelligibly and attractively? Or do you take this caricature of blackness to Nth degree? You have to have some responsibility for the way you present yourself. If you want to be seen as stupid, then you can be, easily. This is all surface miscellania anyway, meaningless. I'm more concerned with the social and mental restrictions that enacting these models produces in young people and they are deep, beginning with poor language.
As for the Bell Curve, any differences would surely be miniscule relative to the differences between two individuals of the same race. Enviroment is the real determiner and many minority communities maintain environments that encourage and reward stupidity, not unintelligence (dumbness). Give your kids the wrong language tools and then promote a politics that tells them anyone who critiques said tools must be racist and you end up with a group that distrusts/disparages academic achievement. That's just stupid. And it's stupid for whites as well, which I only brought up after others started making that case. The trailer trash idiom is a useful bullit for anyone who wants to see how contemporary white and black myths/culture alternatively punish and reward certain behaviors. Again, I'm using culture in a very small sense, like community, not the epochal or historical -- also why I don't read "stupidity/inferiority" into the accents that emerge from other nations. These people come from rich histories with well developed language that form an accepted currency beyond the ghetto.
Yes, I suppose presentation would count, if this debate meant anything, but it doesn't; it's just a nice way of goading opinion from strangers.
<strong>the simple fact that you even THINK that anything that happened to the Chinese in America is the SAME as or had the same results as Slavery is enough proof that you have NO IDEA what you are talking about.
I'm not engaging in a debate here. What I am pointing out is simply that you and others have no basis in knowledge or experience to comprehend the information you choose to opin on.
It is like a Windows user who has read about a Mac and perhaps seen a few and suddenly thinks themselves qualified to argue about the pros and cons of using a Mac with a person who has used one for 10 years.
But I'll tell you what, since it makes you feel better to assume that a) my post is the sum total of what I know and b) that I'm actually debating this topic
i'll leave this as my last word on this topic.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well thank you for the many claims of ignorance. I stated quite plainly that I have plenty of experience. I have worked in minority schools and lived in minority neighborhoods for 15 and 10 year respectively. I give my opinion from my education (which includes a B.A and 51 unit teaching credential) and experience in these areas.
The fact that you would think that black oppression is alone with no match through the entire world history is absolutely silly. I can tell you that I would much rather break my back picking cotton or cultivating fields than I ever would building a pyramid or a railroad.
California's Chinese immigrants were the objects of discriminatory laws and racial violence. California barred them from appearing as witnesses in court, prohibited them from voting or becoming naturalized citizens, and placed their children in segregated school. The state imposed special taxes on "foreign" miners and Chinese fishermen.
How does this sound so different from black people after the civil war? It sounds pretty "Jim Crow" to me. The same types of civil injustice could occur. If you were chinese, I could point blank rob you and there was no way you could even put your word against mine in court.
It is astonishing and embarassing though how quickly you would dismiss their achievements.
As for debate, I wouldn't call lashing out at everyone, calling them ignorant, and declaring that even if they did have the knowledge, they couldn't relate to it to be debate. However to each their own. Likewise leaving that post as your last word is fine since silence could reflect no worse on you.
The difference with these people is that they're making an attempt to speak a standard language. It pains me greatly that people view "ebonics" as a language that imparts it's own accent. There's absolutely no excuse for it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
To me, this is just crap. The excuse that "they're making an attempt to speak a standard language" is an absolute joke. You're not the gatekeeper of the English language. You're not the gatekeeper of ANY language as far as I know. Would it be acceptable if in your example the person was speaking "Irish" or proper "english" from England? Of course not, even if someone thought those people didn't sound "attractive."
And the claim that minorities need to go into a job interview expecting that racism might play a part in their ability to get said job is pretty much proof that racism is ingrained in either you or our society. If that thought as to cross their mind then our country has failed all of us. Beliefs like the one you expressed perpetuate the racism.
If you come to me from another country and don't speak the language, that's perfectly acceptable. You speak another standard and you're learning to communicate in this one, or perhaps you already do so quite effectively and your "accent" just colors your speech. However, if we grow up in the same country/city, with you just living a block or so away from me, yet you can't manage to speak the language that is tied to academics, business, standard communication, then you have a problem, the community that handicapped you in that way has something serious to be ashamed about, and I refuse to apologize for this opinion. It's a joke to you to learn to communicate in the most advantageous manner? You're proving my case with every word you write. Tell me if you really think a bank or school or office is going to hire someone who says "aa-aight" instead of "yes."
<strong>Tell me if you really think a bank or school or office is going to hire someone who says "aa-aight" instead of "yes."</strong><hr></blockquote>
That doesn't make it OK. If someone speaks in ebonics, it doesn't mean they're "stupid" or unintelligent. If someone from the East Coast tries to get a job on the West Coast but they have a "funny" accent, is it OK not to hire them because of that accent? Of course not.
You're creating imaginary boundries based on your own biased (and possibly racist) standards. You're saying that if someone doesn't fit into your white middle class world*, they're SOL. You've set a "minimum" standard based on criteria you judge to be essential (you don't have to speak english, but you can't speak ebonics and you can't wear corn rows.) I don't think you realize that's what you're saying, but it is. I think you're wrong to make these classifications based on nothing concrete.
* I'm not saying you're a white middle class person, just that's roughly the criteria you've set up for the minimum expectations. You could be an Asian in Mongolia for all I know.
[quote]<strong>Knowing that skin color might easily be stacked against you, do you make an effort to look presentable and to speak intelligibly and attractively? Or do you take this caricature of blackness to Nth degree?</strong><hr></blockquote>
So your contention is that blacks are stupid because a select group of blacks do not conform to white standards of success, progress and educatedness?
I know you like to avoid having your conclusions boiled down to concise statements, semantics can hide a lack of thought very well.
[quote]<strong>You have to have some responsibility for the way you present yourself.</strong><hr></blockquote>
And in their element they present themselves well. However you seem to believe that your element is all elements, so they're stupid because they don't conform to your element?
Dig that hole, man, dig it deeper.
[quote]<strong>If you want to be seen as stupid, then you can be, easily.</strong><hr></blockquote>
"Be seen as stupid"... by whom?
You? Don't assume that the entire world thinks "stupid" if they see corn rows because you have racist views. I don't happen to think that way, I know a couple of corn-row fellas I've shared classes with that are smarter than me, and I'm a nice, clean-cut white boy.
I just love how you speak for all of society, it's refreshing to think of everything in a nice neat category.
[quote]<strong>I'm more concerned with the social and mental restrictions that enacting these models produces in young people and they are deep, beginning with poor language.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You have it backwards, their actions are self-expression, your attitudes are the social and mental restriction.
[quote]<strong>Give your kids the wrong language tools and then promote a politics that tells them anyone who critiques said tools must be racist and you end up with a group that distrusts/disparages academic achievement.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Any social structure that discriminates against a language choice is racist. You sound like the rednecks in East Texas bitching about "them damn Messicans speakin' thar language". Ridiculous.
You can keep your 1950s attitudes, we have no use for them in the 21st century. Go throw this stuff down with your grandparents, they'll think you're real cutting-edge.
You know who sounds stupid to me? Anyone who says words like "thereupon" in conversation.
I really hate to break the news to my fellow white folks, but "the system" IS racist. I can't believe so many of you "well-educated" fellow honkeys actually believe that we're all on a level playing field after hundreds of years of horrible horrible institutional racism. For God's sake it's been less than 40 years since blacks got full civil rights. Read that again.
"No no, Adam, it's all gone now. It's all fine. Blacks need to shut up because racism isn't around anymore. We did away with it."
"Well, there's still racism but Jesse Jackson..." (As if Jesse Jackson = all blacks who think maybe some stuff still isn't equal.)
[quote]<strong>Tell me if you really think a bank or school or office is going to hire someone who says "aa-aight" instead of "yes."</strong><hr></blockquote>
Damn, that's some kick-ass logic.
"Tell me if you really think the racist society is going to hire the black person that is stereotypically 'acting black'."
What a fantastic and intelligent question.
Of course that stereotypically-black person isn't going to get hired, that's the entire goddam point. It's people like YOU that associate "ebonics" or "corn-rows" with "stupid" that hold this stuff back.
I really do appreciate your Booker T. Washington approach to race relations, but it turns out W.E.B. DuBois was much closer to the right idea.
My grandfather would think you're the most insightful man alive. Of course, when he was growing up it was all right to beat blacks if they looked at your wife.
Comments
I mean there is strength in numbers and the number here don't seem to be lying. There are no Black Nations strong in Engineering or Technical Industry which require the Best and the Brightest. Wouldn't this add credence to the ideology that Blacks may be physically superior but be deficient intellectually? I realize the book The Bell Curve is commonly referred to as Junk Science but that's mainly because they Authors had no real expertise in the area. What say ye?
<strong>Here's a point no ones brought up. Wouldn't it just make more sense to admit that there may be biological differences that make Blacks a little less intelligent than Whites or Asians?
I mean there is strength in numbers and the number here don't seem to be lying. There are no Black Nations strong in Engineering or Technical Industry which require the Best and the Brightest. Wouldn't this add credence to the ideology that Blacks may be physically superior but be deficient intellectually? I realize the book The Bell Curve is commonly referred to as Junk Science but that's mainly because they Authors had no real expertise in the area. What say ye?</strong><hr></blockquote>
There might be cultural differences about education that manifest themselves in test results, but I would hardly say that can be proof of a physical difference.
I would be much more apt to look at differences in cultural beliefs and attitudes. American blacks for all the complaints about injustice are still the richest people of color in the world as a whole. Many here have wealth that they could never acquire in Africa.
Nick
<strong>oh wow..fireside still lives.
There is validity in the idea that certain factors inhibit black performance in schools, but as usual the focus is placed in the wrong place.
now as for the failures in education, one has to look at some facts:
it is a myth that poor black parents generally do not support the education of their children. In fact, studies have shown ( and are available on the net for those who look, Time wise has an excellent article on this) that pooer black parents spend as much as and in some cases more time, on average, than white parents in school work prep and the like. so if t here is failure where is it.
The problems are in schools and those minoriy of people who choose to follow a life of crime. Recall the Crack cocain epidemic of the eighties ( which perhaps most of you are too young to even know about). The rise of gun violence and gangs that accompained this phenomenon had a direct impact on RECENT school failures as students literally had their lives threatened if they did not join up or act in a manner that protected them from gangs. Some of this resulted in low academic performace by students who often tested as extremely bright by IQ tests. It should be noted that the crack epidemic that occured during the Regan years have been documented as being caused by the US govt. So it is quite proper to place some blame on "THE MAN."
It should be noted that whites and Asians afflicted with the same socio economic conditions also fail at comperable rates.
As for cultural issues that make academic "success" seem "white" one would have to note that this is a strictly American phenomenon. NO other black group in the world expresses this same phenom. Therefore it is reasonable to suspect the unique experiences of AA's in the United States. Remember that it was only 50 years ago that Blacks were allowed to attend so called integrated schools. This after centeries of legal denials to writing,reading and even rudamentary education. No other group in the United States has had to deal with that kind of legacy. That it could continue 50 odd years later should not even be surprising. But then again i think that many here lack the age and information to understand that perspective.
to close, I really think some of you ought to stop reading articles and go to a library and do some real research into the social system of Slavery and Jim Crowism before you comment on topics that by your own writing you know little if anything about, other than what you see on tv.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Has anyone mentioned to you that probably the most flawed debating technique is "If you knew what I knew, you would do what I do." That and the fact that many of the things you post sound like they were simply false statesments you believed from op-ed columns really do not make a compelling argument.
Let's start with some of your "facts."
You say that black parents spend as much time or more than other ethnicities on helping their children with homework and thus the system itself must be racist. However that is simply not true. When you look up factors like drop out rate, number of hours of television watched per week, number of times parents have read to their child per week, you find clear differences among ethnicities that lead to clear academic differences as well.
Also did you also factor in differences in the number of parents in the home? If a household is headed up by only one parent who spends one hour a day helping their child, versus a two parent household where each parent helps 45 minutes, then your research would not account for a very significant factor and that is that only having one parent at home makes you 6 times more likely to be impoverished. Regardless of race this factor can make a significant difference in the education of a child.
I find your ideas about integration, education and "acting white" subtly racist. Your contentions about no other group experiencing similar conditions is just patently wrong. The Ethnic Chinese experienced legal discrimination that was at least as crippling as slavery. Imagine laws saying you are barred from basically any profession where you can make a living. Imagine laws saying you cannot bring over and marry someone of your own ethnicity. When you think of stereotypes like "chinese laundry" it is because that was literally one of the few places they were allowed to work because white Americans resented the success they produced in every area the entereed.
Secondly there were profoundly successful black only schools before integration. There were schools where the average black school was higher than the average white score in the same cities. The contention that a black student somehow learns better when sitting next to a white student is silly. There are no magical qualities about who you sit by.
As for crime, that is something that has to be addressed within the community. Black civil rights leaders and community leaders have given a pass to criminal acts for as long as I can remember simply because of statistical disparities in prison populations. There have been no calls for insuring thing like marriage within the community, not even from so called "reverends." There has been no condemnation of criminals and crime.
This is a racial issue but it is also a cultural issues. Think about the recent terrorist attacks in the U.S. We still have not seen mass codemnation of terrorism by U.S. Islamic groups for example. Instead we get piece after piece about racial profiling and how we could all be terrorists.
The rebuttal is that when whites commit a crime it doesn't happen. I say bull to that. When the Oklahoma City bombing happened, there was repeated codemnation of anyone or thing that would even associate with that viewpoint. Militia groups in general were repeatedly harassed, mocked and their viewpoints scrutinized to insure no further problems would occur.
When Columbine occured, video games, rock groups, whatever might be the cause, right or wrong was gone over until people were satisfied (deluded or not) that it might not happen again.
The criminality and drug trade that occurs within these communities is glorified and not condemned.
It is not scrutinized. It is hidden and ignored. When other communities do try to attack these factors were are told we are racist and to leave it alone.
Now perhaps you can give us a reply that doesn't personally attack us by calling anyone who disagrees with you ignorant, tv watching illiterates.
Nick
[ 01-04-2003: Message edited by: trumptman ]</p>
I'm not engaging in a debate here. What I am pointing out is simply that you and others have no basis in knowledge or experience to comprehend the information you choose to opin on.
It is like a Windows user who has read about a Mac and perhaps seen a few and suddenly thinks themselves qualified to argue about the pros and cons of using a Mac with a person who has used one for 10 years.
But I'll tell you what, since it makes you feel better to assume that a) my post is the sum total of what I know and b) that I'm actually debating this topic
i'll leave this as my last word on this topic.
<a href="http://www.joannejacobs.com/archives/2002_12_29_archive.htm#90126006"; target="_blank">Gangsta School</a>
Their keeping it real.
<strong>Stupid also has a sense of basic unintelligence about it, but it involves more foolishness, thickness or obtuseness, carelessness or frivolity.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Those entire two paragraphs to say what exactly? The definitions of the words.
I'm sorry, Matsu, but both of them are incorrect and either one used in that sense is very clear racism.
"I didn't call him a retard, I called him a moron!"
You made the generalization that not only were minorities stupid, but further drew all kinds of idiotic generalizations.
Your credibility is shot, it's best that you just leave this thread alone and hope it is forgotten with time.
I know you think all this stuff you're saying has an intellectual "against-the-grain" slant to it but it's good 'ol boy attitudes repackaged.
[quote]<strong>I can include the missing lines about white youths,</strong><hr></blockquote>
When trying to whitewash your racist statements, but in other justifications you moan about being constrained by the original topic. Pick your poison; it was an idiotic and racist statement.
[quote]<strong>Better to explode everything right away, not for political aspirants perhaps, but a good source of fun here.</strong><hr></blockquote>
"Better to explode everything right away." - The attitude of the sociopath that assumes everyone is also a sociopath.
Some people don't think in racist generalizations, so "They're stupid" might not really be sitting in the shadows of their mind waiting to come out.
Mountains of verbiage to hide obvious logical flaws may "mollify" some, but your point is far too simplistic to actually be a valid point.
[quote]<strong>I may be the only one here with a specifically non-racist outlook; I would be, if I didn't know that some of you are trying too hard.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Once again you make the assumption that everyone thinks like you, that we're hiding and repressing the desire to simply and idiotically state "They're stupid."
"The world revolves around ME!"
Again; you must be a real hit at parties.
<strong>We need move schools like this one....</strong><hr></blockquote>
"What's really sad is that the big high school in the area, Castlemont, is so dreadful that kids might be better off at Social Justice, where at least teachers notice whether they show up or not."
That says a lot unfortunately.
And groverat, thanks for your words. Better said than I could do.
after reading all these posts i am interested in seeing how you all define racism. it has been my experience in the past that people can have vastly different definitions.
so, how do you define racism?
after reading all these posts i am interested in seeing how you all define racism. it has been my experience in the past that people can have vastly different definitions.
so, how do you define racism?
<strong>i would just like to start by saying that i think this is a wonderful topic...
after reading all these posts i am interested in seeing how you all define racism. it has been my experience in the past that people can have vastly different definitions.
so, how do you define racism?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I define racism as the "Promotion" of one Race over all others. Therefore Racism is and can be used both in benevolent and malevolent ways. The problems stem from the fact that some view Racism as always negative and that's just not the case. Just because my own perference is for Asian Women(hypothetically speaking) does not mean that I'm not Racist but it also doesn't mean that I do harm to other races by my actions. Governments must balance our natural Xenophobic ways which they've done with EO programs and the like. Here in Washington State I200 has passed disallowing preferential treatment for Gov contracts etc and almost overnight any gains that Minority ran businesses had made where pretty much wiped out.
The Smart Government(oxymoron?) is one that can effectively balance the Tierany of the Majority whilst keeping the peace.
<strong>
"I didn't call him a retard, I called him a moron!"
</strong><hr></blockquote>
<img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> That's an excellent analogy, actually. Originally, moron describes a developmental stage, though now it has aquired the meaning "idiot" there was a time when moron was just another rung of intelligence on the developmental ladder, a very precise technical term, actually. You, me, your children... were all morons at one point [8-12 iThink] (without negative connotation), though we kept on developing out of it, well some of us, for myself, I enjoy it. Retard, probably pejorative for retarded, describes a backwards or permanently stunted state. Just because you use words to say the same thing doesn't mean that they do.
Further up someone posted that I think anyone who dresses different and has an accent is stupid. Au contrare, some of the smartest people I know speak with accents, Egyptian, North African, South American, European and Chinese. The difference with these people is that they're making an attempt to speak a standard language. It pains me greatly that people view "ebonics" as a language that imparts it's own accent. There's absolutely no excuse for it. Children grown up in a North American city should be able to appreciate the standard terms and at least HS level registers/vocabs. If you come to an interview and say "a-aight" amidst sucking your teeth, you can be pretty sure you're not getting the job. Corn rows? Just an example to propel an easily identifiable stereotype -- in themselves harmless, but if you layer the right costume with the right (or wrong) speech there you have your guarantee of failure and poverty.
I don't even think it's fair, but it remains a question of practicality. Knowing that skin color might easily be stacked against you, do you make an effort to look presentable and to speak intelligibly and attractively? Or do you take this caricature of blackness to Nth degree? You have to have some responsibility for the way you present yourself. If you want to be seen as stupid, then you can be, easily. This is all surface miscellania anyway, meaningless. I'm more concerned with the social and mental restrictions that enacting these models produces in young people and they are deep, beginning with poor language.
As for the Bell Curve, any differences would surely be miniscule relative to the differences between two individuals of the same race. Enviroment is the real determiner and many minority communities maintain environments that encourage and reward stupidity, not unintelligence (dumbness). Give your kids the wrong language tools and then promote a politics that tells them anyone who critiques said tools must be racist and you end up with a group that distrusts/disparages academic achievement. That's just stupid. And it's stupid for whites as well, which I only brought up after others started making that case. The trailer trash idiom is a useful bullit for anyone who wants to see how contemporary white and black myths/culture alternatively punish and reward certain behaviors. Again, I'm using culture in a very small sense, like community, not the epochal or historical -- also why I don't read "stupidity/inferiority" into the accents that emerge from other nations. These people come from rich histories with well developed language that form an accepted currency beyond the ghetto.
Yes, I suppose presentation would count, if this debate meant anything, but it doesn't; it's just a nice way of goading opinion from strangers.
<strong>the simple fact that you even THINK that anything that happened to the Chinese in America is the SAME as or had the same results as Slavery is enough proof that you have NO IDEA what you are talking about.
I'm not engaging in a debate here. What I am pointing out is simply that you and others have no basis in knowledge or experience to comprehend the information you choose to opin on.
It is like a Windows user who has read about a Mac and perhaps seen a few and suddenly thinks themselves qualified to argue about the pros and cons of using a Mac with a person who has used one for 10 years.
But I'll tell you what, since it makes you feel better to assume that a) my post is the sum total of what I know and b) that I'm actually debating this topic
i'll leave this as my last word on this topic.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well thank you for the many claims of ignorance. I stated quite plainly that I have plenty of experience. I have worked in minority schools and lived in minority neighborhoods for 15 and 10 year respectively. I give my opinion from my education (which includes a B.A and 51 unit teaching credential) and experience in these areas.
The fact that you would think that black oppression is alone with no match through the entire world history is absolutely silly. I can tell you that I would much rather break my back picking cotton or cultivating fields than I ever would building a pyramid or a railroad.
California's Chinese immigrants were the objects of discriminatory laws and racial violence. California barred them from appearing as witnesses in court, prohibited them from voting or becoming naturalized citizens, and placed their children in segregated school. The state imposed special taxes on "foreign" miners and Chinese fishermen.
How does this sound so different from black people after the civil war? It sounds pretty "Jim Crow" to me. The same types of civil injustice could occur. If you were chinese, I could point blank rob you and there was no way you could even put your word against mine in court.
It is astonishing and embarassing though how quickly you would dismiss their achievements.
As for debate, I wouldn't call lashing out at everyone, calling them ignorant, and declaring that even if they did have the knowledge, they couldn't relate to it to be debate. However to each their own. Likewise leaving that post as your last word is fine since silence could reflect no worse on you.
Nick
[ 01-04-2003: Message edited by: trumptman ]</p>
<strong>...
so, how do you define racism?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Anything white people do or say is racist. Anything black people do or say is circumstance.
<strong>
The difference with these people is that they're making an attempt to speak a standard language. It pains me greatly that people view "ebonics" as a language that imparts it's own accent. There's absolutely no excuse for it.</strong><hr></blockquote>
To me, this is just crap. The excuse that "they're making an attempt to speak a standard language" is an absolute joke. You're not the gatekeeper of the English language. You're not the gatekeeper of ANY language as far as I know. Would it be acceptable if in your example the person was speaking "Irish" or proper "english" from England? Of course not, even if someone thought those people didn't sound "attractive."
And the claim that minorities need to go into a job interview expecting that racism might play a part in their ability to get said job is pretty much proof that racism is ingrained in either you or our society. If that thought as to cross their mind then our country has failed all of us. Beliefs like the one you expressed perpetuate the racism.
<strong>
Anything white people do or say is racist. Anything black people do or say is circumstance.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Do us all a favor and shut up.
<strong>Tell me if you really think a bank or school or office is going to hire someone who says "aa-aight" instead of "yes."</strong><hr></blockquote>
That doesn't make it OK. If someone speaks in ebonics, it doesn't mean they're "stupid" or unintelligent. If someone from the East Coast tries to get a job on the West Coast but they have a "funny" accent, is it OK not to hire them because of that accent? Of course not.
You're creating imaginary boundries based on your own biased (and possibly racist) standards. You're saying that if someone doesn't fit into your white middle class world*, they're SOL. You've set a "minimum" standard based on criteria you judge to be essential (you don't have to speak english, but you can't speak ebonics and you can't wear corn rows.) I don't think you realize that's what you're saying, but it is. I think you're wrong to make these classifications based on nothing concrete.
* I'm not saying you're a white middle class person, just that's roughly the criteria you've set up for the minimum expectations. You could be an Asian in Mongolia for all I know.
So your contention is that blacks are stupid because a select group of blacks do not conform to white standards of success, progress and educatedness?
I know you like to avoid having your conclusions boiled down to concise statements, semantics can hide a lack of thought very well.
[quote]<strong>You have to have some responsibility for the way you present yourself.</strong><hr></blockquote>
And in their element they present themselves well. However you seem to believe that your element is all elements, so they're stupid because they don't conform to your element?
Dig that hole, man, dig it deeper.
[quote]<strong>If you want to be seen as stupid, then you can be, easily.</strong><hr></blockquote>
"Be seen as stupid"... by whom?
You? Don't assume that the entire world thinks "stupid" if they see corn rows because you have racist views. I don't happen to think that way, I know a couple of corn-row fellas I've shared classes with that are smarter than me, and I'm a nice, clean-cut white boy.
I just love how you speak for all of society, it's refreshing to think of everything in a nice neat category.
[quote]<strong>I'm more concerned with the social and mental restrictions that enacting these models produces in young people and they are deep, beginning with poor language.</strong><hr></blockquote>
You have it backwards, their actions are self-expression, your attitudes are the social and mental restriction.
[quote]<strong>Give your kids the wrong language tools and then promote a politics that tells them anyone who critiques said tools must be racist and you end up with a group that distrusts/disparages academic achievement.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Any social structure that discriminates against a language choice is racist. You sound like the rednecks in East Texas bitching about "them damn Messicans speakin' thar language". Ridiculous.
You can keep your 1950s attitudes, we have no use for them in the 21st century. Go throw this stuff down with your grandparents, they'll think you're real cutting-edge.
You know who sounds stupid to me? Anyone who says words like "thereupon" in conversation.
I really hate to break the news to my fellow white folks, but "the system" IS racist. I can't believe so many of you "well-educated" fellow honkeys actually believe that we're all on a level playing field after hundreds of years of horrible horrible institutional racism. For God's sake it's been less than 40 years since blacks got full civil rights. Read that again.
"No no, Adam, it's all gone now. It's all fine. Blacks need to shut up because racism isn't around anymore. We did away with it."
"Well, there's still racism but Jesse Jackson..." (As if Jesse Jackson = all blacks who think maybe some stuff still isn't equal.)
[quote]<strong>Tell me if you really think a bank or school or office is going to hire someone who says "aa-aight" instead of "yes."</strong><hr></blockquote>
Damn, that's some kick-ass logic.
"Tell me if you really think the racist society is going to hire the black person that is stereotypically 'acting black'."
What a fantastic and intelligent question.
Of course that stereotypically-black person isn't going to get hired, that's the entire goddam point. It's people like YOU that associate "ebonics" or "corn-rows" with "stupid" that hold this stuff back.
I really do appreciate your Booker T. Washington approach to race relations, but it turns out W.E.B. DuBois was much closer to the right idea.
My grandfather would think you're the most insightful man alive. Of course, when he was growing up it was all right to beat blacks if they looked at your wife.