I'll beat Groverat to it in telling you that I think your statement is simply racist. Perhaps you have more to explain, but I just don't think African-Americans are any less smart (genetically) than any other American ethnic group.
<strong>I'll beat Groverat to it in telling you that I think your statement is simply racist. Perhaps you have more to explain, but I just don't think African-Americans are any less smart (genetically) than any other American ethnic group.</strong><hr></blockquote>
by pointing out that when i say there are inferior intelligency among us, yes, i'm a racist.
when you mentioned african american, which i didn't point them out directly, i was thinking of the general "colored" people, as in, all except white (yes, i know white is a color), then you are being racist.
i don't think afro-americans are less intelligent at all. i think there are prolly more, percentage wise, that are less intelligent.
if i get 30 students in my class who are hispanic or black, usually around 25 to 27 of them will not do very well at all. now, i might be a bad teacher, and perhaps i can't relate to them as well as i should be, but usually i can reach around 10-15% of them. so around 3-4.
this year, i have been lucky. and perhaps it's b/c of a new semester just started and i have new students. so far this semester is pretty good, we won't get to see the testing of the teacher (me) until next week or so (all students are usually very well behaved the first week).
everyone can make fun of teachers being over paid and under worked or simply not doing their jobs at all, but if you were in the trenches like us, you know why not much get done. black students (er, if i refer them to as black students, am i a racist?) have terrible behavior problems. However, i will point out that bad behavior occur usually during class, and when i'm talking to a black student one on one, they will not "act up."
i digress....
my land lords are teachers, with 88+ yr experience in teaching, one just retired from 50 yrs of teaching.. and she noticed the same....
with the typical "ethnic" parents who do not value education don't help their kids' cause either.
a lot of my students, especially black students, need extra help. I'm always happy to stay after school or sit down with them one on one during lunch to go over the material with them.
one of the most valuable skills of being a teacher is being able to explain the material in many different ways. Usually, some students get it during the first presentation, some don't, and there's nothing wrong with it. But after trying 8 or 10 different ways of explaining the material to them, and they still don't get it.... and then they switch teacher.... and they still don't get it...
also, i know a lot of new teachers. some new teachers last 2 months, some last 3 years. but more than 50% of them are gone by the end of the third year, usually at the end of their first tenure year. and statistics are even worse at "low achieving" schools.
a dear friend of mine who was so looking forward to teaching spanish, she did her student teaching (teaching one year for FREE), and got her first job at one of those low achieving schools. she quit after 2 months.
i've seen students *memorizing* 1+1=2, 1+2=3 etc... these are not special ed students. these are regular (high school) students. i have, however, not seen any white kids do this tho.
a lot of my white students whose home condition are just as bad as the blacks, it's the area i guess. but they try, they try very hard... of course, there are some that tried their best but still don't get it, that's not what i'm teaching them. If they show that they tried their best, they can get straight D's in their quizzes and tests, and straight D's on all their homework assignment, they can still get a B- in my class.
i'm sorry, i will not say what subject i teach nor where i teach...... it's a high school, and that's the end of that. After Scott Phelps aired the dirty laundry, i'm not gonna test the system.
<strong>And this means what in regards to blacks (and other non-whites) being inherently "unequal"?
I'm seeing lots of anecdotes and bias, not seeing much in the way of hard facts.</strong><hr></blockquote>
go observe a typical high school... you'll see
what? you want me to say that more than half of my black students fail? more than half of the black students in my school fail? More than half of ethnic students fail? while more than half, hell, more than 3/4 of white students graduate and more than 3/4 of asians graduate...... yeah, that's what's going on. and it's not the environment, b/c they ALL have pretty much the same environment (there are some exceptions, but most are low income)
What exactly do you teach your students? Racial bias? It's disturbing that someone of your influence in the community could attribute intelligence to race.
<strong>go observe a typical high school... you'll see</strong><hr></blockquote>
I went to a typical high school. I have 4 years of observation. What this speaks to the inherent "intelligence" of blacks is still unclear.
[quote]<strong>what? you want me to say that more than half of my black students fail? more than half of the black students in my school fail? More than half of ethnic students fail? while more than half, hell, more than 3/4 of white students graduate and more than 3/4 of asians graduate...... yeah, that's what's going on. and it's not the environment, b/c they ALL have pretty much the same environment (there are some exceptions, but most are low income)</strong><hr></blockquote>
And again, you have a certain amount of anecdotal evidence. But as someone as intelligent as yourself must know, anecdotal evidence as proof of genetic predisposition is no proof at all; useful only in pointing a direction in which real study should look. This is, after all, the method of scientific study that we learned whites have devised.
Tell me, Wagnerite, how strongly do you feel school grades to be a true measure of what you would call "intelligence"?
Surely someone of your intelligence would not make such statements without backing. Surely it's not as simple as "I live in X region. And having studied X region for X years I have determined that all blacks are born less intelligent than whites."
when you're at school, you're a professional. you treat everybody the same like any lawful citizen would. you help the kids with disadvantages more b/c they need it. none of my students think i'm a racist. they think i'm kind of a tough teacher, strict teacher, but not a racist. when they don't pull through, they know it, i don't take bs from students.
i help ALL my students as much as i can. sometimes i'm at school til 8pm.. granted, there are other days when i'm at home by 3 (school out by 2:15) but most of the time i'm not home til 4 or 5. helping students on subjects that i teach, and sometimes help them on subjects that are not my specialty. like math, i can help with geometry and algebra, but not calcu. stuff... i'll try to con a real math teacher to help the student if i have to, but i try.
what's really a bummer tho... usualy it's the students who DON'T need help that come for extra lessons...... and the ones that really need help see the after school sessions as punishment. I don't call them detentions... they're tutoring sessions. I make it clear that im there to help them get the material, not keep them away from band or sports. besides, i have the cooperations of the band/sport/clubs teachers anyway, if i feel that students need help in my class, they can't go to their games/marching bands/sports until they've made their tutoring session.
in my own home, i can say whatever i want. i'm not teaching. and my students are not around
higher percentage of black/hispanic students are less intelligent... that's my claim. i never said they're genetically deficent in the smarts department.
i don't think genes are it... if i was a geneticist, i'd be posting somewhere else.
before i taught at high schools, i, like you, have observed 4 years of high school. and before i went back to high school as an adult, i had NO IDEA what went on. I thought i did. it's not until the first day of student teaching that i BEGAN to see what was happening.
you need to observe as an ADULT, as an educated adult who has done something with your life (which i'm sure you have)
And again, you have a certain amount of anecdotal evidence. But as someone as intelligent as yourself must know, anecdotal evidence as proof of genetic predisposition is no proof at all; useful only in pointing a direction in which real study should look. This is, after all, the method of scientific study that we learned whites have devised.
Tell me, Wagnerite, how strongly do you feel school grades to be a true measure of what you would call "intelligence"?
Surely someone of your intelligence would not make such statements without backing. Surely it's not as simple as "I live in X region. And having studied X region for X years I have determined that all blacks are born less intelligent than whites."</strong><hr></blockquote>
sure it's not scientific. it's just like you didn't get shell shock from watching Vietnam war on your tv set. army dudes who were in the trenches got shell shock, b/c they were there.
if you go observe a typical high school then you'll get your anecdotal evidence. you really need to teach high school for a few months to get the full experience.
<strong>if i get 30 students in my class who are hispanic or black, usually around 25 to 27 of them will not do very well at all. now, i might be a bad teacher, and perhaps i can't relate to them as well as i should be, but usually i can reach around 10-15% of them. so around 3-4.
</strong>
<hr></blockquote>
Are you aware of the research that shows teachers expectations can affect student performance?
Students 'objectively' rated as below average will live up to higher expectations if their teacher is told that they are bright.
Unfortunately above average children (again, 'objectively' rated) will live down to expectations if that is what the teacher believes them capable of.
Now, I'm not saying that you have caused entire swathes of ethnic children to fail, but I believe you have expected less of certain children and their education has suffered because of this.
Since you quote other teachers in support of your notion it is apparent that from day one, certain minorities are judged to a different standard.
And it's been proved, I think beyond doubt, that it is not genetic, especially if it applies to african-americans and hispanics (which is not even a genetic grouping). You claim that the 'environment' is the same. I wonder if you consider as part of the 'environment', your expectations, the expectations of the school as a whole, and most importantly the expectations of a whole generation of parents who were taught to fail in school and now, *shock* *horror* *moral outrage*, don't value the institution run by people like yourself who have already given up on the next generation.
You claim that to 'understand' you have to visit school as an adult. I think to understand you need to ask yourself when you last dealt with someone who considered you a failure without even knowing you, who treated you like a fool, not even out of anger or impatience but pure condescension.
Comments
all men are NOT born equal. I'm sorry to say
<strong>all men are NOT born equal. I'm sorry to say</strong><hr></blockquote>
Expound
<strong>I'll beat Groverat to it in telling you that I think your statement is simply racist. Perhaps you have more to explain, but I just don't think African-Americans are any less smart (genetically) than any other American ethnic group.</strong><hr></blockquote>
by pointing out that when i say there are inferior intelligency among us, yes, i'm a racist.
when you mentioned african american, which i didn't point them out directly, i was thinking of the general "colored" people, as in, all except white (yes, i know white is a color), then you are being racist.
i don't think afro-americans are less intelligent at all. i think there are prolly more, percentage wise, that are less intelligent.
this year, i have been lucky. and perhaps it's b/c of a new semester just started and i have new students. so far this semester is pretty good, we won't get to see the testing of the teacher (me) until next week or so (all students are usually very well behaved the first week).
everyone can make fun of teachers being over paid and under worked or simply not doing their jobs at all, but if you were in the trenches like us, you know why not much get done. black students (er, if i refer them to as black students, am i a racist?) have terrible behavior problems. However, i will point out that bad behavior occur usually during class, and when i'm talking to a black student one on one, they will not "act up."
i digress....
my land lords are teachers, with 88+ yr experience in teaching, one just retired from 50 yrs of teaching.. and she noticed the same....
let me finish in the next post.
a lot of my students, especially black students, need extra help. I'm always happy to stay after school or sit down with them one on one during lunch to go over the material with them.
one of the most valuable skills of being a teacher is being able to explain the material in many different ways. Usually, some students get it during the first presentation, some don't, and there's nothing wrong with it. But after trying 8 or 10 different ways of explaining the material to them, and they still don't get it.... and then they switch teacher.... and they still don't get it...
i have to draw my conclusion the way i see it.
[ 01-23-2003: Message edited by: ShawnPatrickJoyce ]</p>
a dear friend of mine who was so looking forward to teaching spanish, she did her student teaching (teaching one year for FREE), and got her first job at one of those low achieving schools. she quit after 2 months.
i've seen students *memorizing* 1+1=2, 1+2=3 etc... these are not special ed students. these are regular (high school) students. i have, however, not seen any white kids do this tho.
a lot of my white students whose home condition are just as bad as the blacks, it's the area i guess. but they try, they try very hard... of course, there are some that tried their best but still don't get it, that's not what i'm teaching them. If they show that they tried their best, they can get straight D's in their quizzes and tests, and straight D's on all their homework assignment, they can still get a B- in my class.
i'm sorry, i will not say what subject i teach nor where i teach...... it's a high school, and that's the end of that. After Scott Phelps aired the dirty laundry, i'm not gonna test the system.
<strong>Your experiences speak nothing of the genetic disadvantage you claim minorites are at regarding intelligence.
[ 01-23-2003: Message edited by: ShawnPatrickJoyce ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
i'm just pointing out that i have observed that certain races are less intelligent based on my experience.
hence not all men are created equal.
on yeah, forgot to say... i'm a color. not very color, but color. (not german.... like my "screen name"
[ 01-23-2003: Message edited by: Wagnerite ]</p>
I'm seeing lots of anecdotes and bias, not seeing much in the way of hard facts.
<strong>And this means what in regards to blacks (and other non-whites) being inherently "unequal"?
I'm seeing lots of anecdotes and bias, not seeing much in the way of hard facts.</strong><hr></blockquote>
go observe a typical high school... you'll see
what? you want me to say that more than half of my black students fail? more than half of the black students in my school fail? More than half of ethnic students fail? while more than half, hell, more than 3/4 of white students graduate and more than 3/4 of asians graduate...... yeah, that's what's going on. and it's not the environment, b/c they ALL have pretty much the same environment (there are some exceptions, but most are low income)
<strong>go observe a typical high school... you'll see</strong><hr></blockquote>
I went to a typical high school. I have 4 years of observation. What this speaks to the inherent "intelligence" of blacks is still unclear.
[quote]<strong>what? you want me to say that more than half of my black students fail? more than half of the black students in my school fail? More than half of ethnic students fail? while more than half, hell, more than 3/4 of white students graduate and more than 3/4 of asians graduate...... yeah, that's what's going on. and it's not the environment, b/c they ALL have pretty much the same environment (there are some exceptions, but most are low income)</strong><hr></blockquote>
And again, you have a certain amount of anecdotal evidence. But as someone as intelligent as yourself must know, anecdotal evidence as proof of genetic predisposition is no proof at all; useful only in pointing a direction in which real study should look. This is, after all, the method of scientific study that we learned whites have devised.
Tell me, Wagnerite, how strongly do you feel school grades to be a true measure of what you would call "intelligence"?
Surely someone of your intelligence would not make such statements without backing. Surely it's not as simple as "I live in X region. And having studied X region for X years I have determined that all blacks are born less intelligent than whites."
i help ALL my students as much as i can. sometimes i'm at school til 8pm.. granted, there are other days when i'm at home by 3 (school out by 2:15) but most of the time i'm not home til 4 or 5. helping students on subjects that i teach, and sometimes help them on subjects that are not my specialty. like math, i can help with geometry and algebra, but not calcu. stuff... i'll try to con a real math teacher to help the student if i have to, but i try.
what's really a bummer tho... usualy it's the students who DON'T need help that come for extra lessons...... and the ones that really need help see the after school sessions as punishment. I don't call them detentions... they're tutoring sessions. I make it clear that im there to help them get the material, not keep them away from band or sports. besides, i have the cooperations of the band/sport/clubs teachers anyway, if i feel that students need help in my class, they can't go to their games/marching bands/sports until they've made their tutoring session.
in my own home, i can say whatever i want. i'm not teaching. and my students are not around
i don't think genes are it... if i was a geneticist, i'd be posting somewhere else.
you need to observe as an ADULT, as an educated adult who has done something with your life (which i'm sure you have)
<strong>
And again, you have a certain amount of anecdotal evidence. But as someone as intelligent as yourself must know, anecdotal evidence as proof of genetic predisposition is no proof at all; useful only in pointing a direction in which real study should look. This is, after all, the method of scientific study that we learned whites have devised.
Tell me, Wagnerite, how strongly do you feel school grades to be a true measure of what you would call "intelligence"?
Surely someone of your intelligence would not make such statements without backing. Surely it's not as simple as "I live in X region. And having studied X region for X years I have determined that all blacks are born less intelligent than whites."</strong><hr></blockquote>
sure it's not scientific. it's just like you didn't get shell shock from watching Vietnam war on your tv set. army dudes who were in the trenches got shell shock, b/c they were there.
if you go observe a typical high school then you'll get your anecdotal evidence. you really need to teach high school for a few months to get the full experience.
am i the only school teacher on this board?
<strong>if i get 30 students in my class who are hispanic or black, usually around 25 to 27 of them will not do very well at all. now, i might be a bad teacher, and perhaps i can't relate to them as well as i should be, but usually i can reach around 10-15% of them. so around 3-4.
</strong>
<hr></blockquote>
Are you aware of the research that shows teachers expectations can affect student performance?
example: <a href="http://eric.uoregon.edu/publications/digests/digest116.html"; target="_blank">http://eric.uoregon.edu/publications/digests/digest116.html</a>;
Students 'objectively' rated as below average will live up to higher expectations if their teacher is told that they are bright.
Unfortunately above average children (again, 'objectively' rated) will live down to expectations if that is what the teacher believes them capable of.
Now, I'm not saying that you have caused entire swathes of ethnic children to fail, but I believe you have expected less of certain children and their education has suffered because of this.
Since you quote other teachers in support of your notion it is apparent that from day one, certain minorities are judged to a different standard.
And it's been proved, I think beyond doubt, that it is not genetic, especially if it applies to african-americans and hispanics (which is not even a genetic grouping). You claim that the 'environment' is the same. I wonder if you consider as part of the 'environment', your expectations, the expectations of the school as a whole, and most importantly the expectations of a whole generation of parents who were taught to fail in school and now, *shock* *horror* *moral outrage*, don't value the institution run by people like yourself who have already given up on the next generation.
You claim that to 'understand' you have to visit school as an adult. I think to understand you need to ask yourself when you last dealt with someone who considered you a failure without even knowing you, who treated you like a fool, not even out of anger or impatience but pure condescension.