>> BR: our motto is now a phrase that says you're only a real american if you believe in some sort of invisible man that lives in the sky
Yep. And there's pretty much nothing you can do about it.
I think that you need to look at the big picture here. The human race is still in its infancy, a little bit like a child who still believes in Santa. It's going to take a lot of time (thousands of years) and growing up before reason and common sense prevail over myths, religions, and superstitions.
If you're an atheist like me living in the present time, well, too bad. You're ahead of your time.
[quote]From Many, One represents us as a WHOLE<hr></blockquote>
nah, then there would be people complaining that they don't want to be part of an opressive govt, that they're an individual, not part of this govt. sanctioned "one"
<strong>If you're an atheist like me living in the present time, well, too bad. You're ahead of your time.</strong><hr></blockquote>
No, I'm not an atheist like you and frankly you are just as infantile as all the rest. It is just as irrational to rule out all possibility of a higher being existing as it is to believe in it. The grown-up way of handling it is to simply treat it as the non-issue that it really is--to not care either way.
nah, then there would be people complaining that they don't want to be part of an opressive govt, that they're an individual, not part of this govt. sanctioned "one"</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well you petitioned the government to change the wording to be non-secular and they agree...
Now how many languages will it be required to be in to be acceptable by the other minorities that are offended by English as the government sanctioned language
>> BR: No, I'm not an atheist like you and frankly you are just as infantile as all the rest. It is just as irrational to rule out all possibility of a higher being existing as it is to believe in it.
Sorry, I didn't mean to offend anyone. I support changing the national motto back to "E Pluribus Unum" because "God Bless America" means to me: "you must be an idiot if you don't believe in God".
<strong>>> BR: No, I'm not an atheist like you and frankly you are just as infantile as all the rest. It is just as irrational to rule out all possibility of a higher being existing as it is to believe in it.
Sorry, I didn't mean to offend anyone. I support changing the national motto back to "E Pluribus Unum" because "God Bless America" means to me: "you must be an idiot if you don't believe in God".</strong><hr></blockquote>
You didn't offend anyone. You simply stated that other people are infantile for believing in something without evidence while you summarily dismiss any possibility. I just felt the need to point that out. No harm no foul.
Hindu and Hermetic dieties aside, the word 'God' with a capital G in 2003 America is thought of as the Christian god. Period. This thread has wobbled far right and left, but the original thought still stands. One Nation UNDER God? Please. In God We TRUST? Whatever. BR might go off on a tangent sometimes, but I agree fundamentally with his/her original post. Many people, one country. Nice thought, isn't it?
[edit: It takes me until June until I get used to the new year, 2002=2003]
I'm surprised no one seems to have mentioned the fact that the motto was changed in response to the 'athiest communists.' Whn I was growing up, America was always praised for its diversity and equality. It's very sad that the phrase that is meant to sum up the values of our country leave out almost one in four Americans. And all because of what is now looked upon as a dark period in American politics.
As was said when it was introducted:
[quote]"Nothing can be more certain than that our country was founded in a
spiritual atmosphere and a firm trust in God. While the sentiment of
trust in God is universal and timeless, these particular four words
"In God We Trust" are indigenous to our country...
At the base of our freedom is our faith in God and the desire of
Americans to live by His will and by His guidance. As long as this
country trusts in God, it will prevail. To serve as a constant
reminder of this truth, it is highly desirable that our currency and
coins should bear these inspiring words, "In God We Trust."
--Congressional Record, June 7, 1955, pp 7795-96<hr></blockquote>
It's very intesting in light of what was posted above by SJO.
Honestly, that quote makes my stomach turn and my blood boil. Thank *God* I vote.
[edit: I don't want to turn this into a 'voting' issue, just reiterating what everyone should know: In this system, every vote counts (unless you live in Florida )]
<strong>Didn't any of you learn anything from the South Park episode <a href="http://www.vdare.com/francis/xmas01.htm"; target="_blank">War Against Christmas</a> </strong><hr></blockquote>
[quote] (unless you live in Florida ) <hr></blockquote>
...In which case your vote counts twice the first time, not at all the second, and half the third. The reverse is also true, depending on which side you're on.
Seriously though, like others, I've been destracted from the point of this thread by the tone of it. I got emotionally caught up in an issue that I didn't even know existed until the thread was started. I was under the false impression that "E Pluribus Unum" was still on our money alongside "In God We Trust."
I'm sorry for taking some of these comments personally. It kept me from seeing that BR's main point isn't that God should be hidden away like a dirty secret, and it isn't that everybody who disagrees is an idiot. It's that our national motto and symbols should be above question, something that all Americans can be proud to utter and pledge allegiance to.
Now, in order to spark another aspect of this topic, it occurs to me that what is written on our money should have some economic significance. Our legal tender is, after all, merely a representation right? It has no inherent value, only the value that we assign to it, hence inflation. So shouldn't it say something like "In the Treasury Dept. we Trust," or perhaps "In Greenspan we trust."
If we do want a "national motto" on our money then it should be an official US symbol, just like the Bald Eagle, or the Seal of the United States. And yes, it should be back along the lines of "E Pluribus Unum," something that sums up the common ideals that make us all Americans.
...In which case your vote counts twice the first time, not at all the second, and half the third. The reverse is also true, depending on which side you're on.
Seriously though, like others, I've been destracted from the point of this thread by the tone of it. I got emotionally caught up in an issue that I didn't even know existed until the thread was started. I was under the false impression that "E Pluribus Unum" was still on our money alongside "In God We Trust."
I'm sorry for taking some of these comments personally. It kept me from seeing that BR's main point isn't that God should be hidden away like a dirty secret, and it isn't that everybody who disagrees is an idiot. It's that our national motto and symbols should be above question, something that all Americans can be proud to utter and pledge allegiance to.
Now, in order to spark another aspect of this topic, it occurs to me that what is written on our money should have some economic significance. Our legal tender is, after all, merely a representation right? It has no inherent value, only the value that we assign to it, hence inflation. So shouldn't it say something like "In the Treasury Dept. we Trust," or perhaps "In Greenspan we trust."
If we do want a "national motto" on our money then it should be an official US symbol, just like the Bald Eagle, or the Seal of the United States. And yes, it should be back along the lines of "E Pluribus Unum," something that sums up the common ideals that make us all Americans.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Comments
<strong>
ahh so all gods and deities must come before the almighty pfflam to be judged and anointed cool or not cool.
you mind your karma and i'll mind mine. i am awaiting the arrival of kalki.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Don't f**k with Duamutef.
the tenth avatar of vishnu.
he has not yet come.
he will come at the time of pralaya, the great deluge.
and i don't f**k with anyone.
<strong>
and i don't f**k with anyone.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Good...because Duamutef will protect the stomach of the deceased all over your ass if you try.
Yep. And there's pretty much nothing you can do about it.
I think that you need to look at the big picture here. The human race is still in its infancy, a little bit like a child who still believes in Santa. It's going to take a lot of time (thousands of years) and growing up before reason and common sense prevail over myths, religions, and superstitions.
If you're an atheist like me living in the present time, well, too bad. You're ahead of your time.
nah, then there would be people complaining that they don't want to be part of an opressive govt, that they're an individual, not part of this govt. sanctioned "one"
<strong>If you're an atheist like me living in the present time, well, too bad. You're ahead of your time.</strong><hr></blockquote>
No, I'm not an atheist like you and frankly you are just as infantile as all the rest. It is just as irrational to rule out all possibility of a higher being existing as it is to believe in it. The grown-up way of handling it is to simply treat it as the non-issue that it really is--to not care either way.
<strong>
nah, then there would be people complaining that they don't want to be part of an opressive govt, that they're an individual, not part of this govt. sanctioned "one"</strong><hr></blockquote>
Feh. You're reaching.
Now how many languages will it be required to be in to be acceptable by the other minorities that are offended by English as the government sanctioned language
Sorry, I didn't mean to offend anyone. I support changing the national motto back to "E Pluribus Unum" because "God Bless America" means to me: "you must be an idiot if you don't believe in God".
<strong>>> BR: No, I'm not an atheist like you and frankly you are just as infantile as all the rest. It is just as irrational to rule out all possibility of a higher being existing as it is to believe in it.
Sorry, I didn't mean to offend anyone. I support changing the national motto back to "E Pluribus Unum" because "God Bless America" means to me: "you must be an idiot if you don't believe in God".</strong><hr></blockquote>
You didn't offend anyone. You simply stated that other people are infantile for believing in something without evidence while you summarily dismiss any possibility. I just felt the need to point that out. No harm no foul.
Founding Fathers being Christian
by Rev. William Edelen"
[quote]February is known as "Presidents
Month," due to birth dates. The
political right-wing, Christian
psycho-ceramics (crack pots) will
be babbling on about our
"Christian" founding presidents.
They will be putting out phony
fundamentalist quotes that are
laughable to any historically
enlightened person with an IQ
above 3.
I am going to tell you a true story.
Before you read it, you may want
to get another cup of strong coffee
or else take two aspirin.
Several years ago I wrote a
column, during this month, about
the fact that George Washington
was not even remotely a Christian, but was a Deist at best. I had the column
loaded with solid documentation, footnotes, references and even the
Encyclopedia Britannica that could all be checked out. Washington looked
upon Christianity as gross superstition.
The secretary to the principal of a Christian school here in Palm Springs
called me on the phone and said they demanded that I write another column
and apologize. She said they had "proof" that Washington was indeed a
Christian. I said, "Oh really . . . what proof?" She said: "Our calendar."
Staggered, I said, "Your calendar . . . What calendar?" With obvious joy she
said, "The calendar that Pat Robertson sends out to Christian schools . . . it
says right here on his birthday that he was a born-again Christian before he
died."
Almost speechless I said to her, "You do not believe the scholars who write
the Encyclopedia Britannica, but you believe Pat Robertson's calendar?"
Almost with anger, she yelled over the phone, "Of course, we believe Pat
Robertson instead of the encyclopedia written by liberals."
I give you my word before Wakan Tanka and the Tao that is a true story. The
psycho-ceramics are everywhere. Documented facts mean nothing to them.
The "Philadelphia Gazette" on June 17, 1797, printed the entire 12 articles of
the Treaty of Tripoli with the notice that the Senate and President John
Adams had approved the treaty unanimously. Not even one dissenting vote.
Article Eleven of that printed treaty begins with this statement: "The
government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on
the Christian religion."
The treaty was written with full approval by President George Washington.
In the time it took to reach the Senate, John Adams had become president and
it met, as stated above, with his full approval.
Another fact: American history scholars, writing for the "Encyclopedia
Britannica" have stated that our first six presidents were Deists, and not in
any sense Christian.
Quote: "One of the embarrassing problems for the nineteenth century
champions of the Christian faith was the fact that not one of the first six
presidents of the United States was a Christian. They were Deists."
(Chicago: Encyclopedia Britannica, 1968) Volume 2 page 420 Mortimer J.
Adler, editor in chief, "The Annals of America: Great Issues in American
Life: A Conspectus."
What do Deists believe?
God: There is no personal God "out there" who is aware of, or involved in,
any of the activities of the Earth. The word "God" is only a linguistic symbol
for an impersonal energy, force, "providence," "nature's God," the natural
world.
Jesus: Only a teacher and nothing more. As John Adams put it: "The doctrine
of the divinity of Jesus has made a convenient cover for absurdity."
Thomas Jefferson used these words: "The day will come when the mystical
generation of Jesus, by a supreme being as his father in the womb of a
virgin, will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain
of Jupiter."
(Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823.)
Bible: Nothing but literature and bad literature at that, filled with thousands of
contradictions, falsehoods and superstitions. Jefferson made his own
"bible."
It is in the Smithsonian. He threw out all of the Old Testament and all of
Paul's writings, calling them "rubbish" and "degrading."
He then took scissors and cut out all of the mythology and folklore and fables
of the Gospels and left only a few of the parables that he thought had some
significance. He pasted them in little book. It is known as the "Jefferson
Bible."
He said he had "removed a few jewels from the dunghill."
If you can read the English language you can go to your public library and
read the Jefferson-Adams letters and listen to all of the jokes they made about
Jesus, the Trinity and Christian doctrine. But those living in the world of
fantasy and make-believe will never take the time to do serious study with
world-class scholars on the subject matter.
Thomas Jefferson: "Notes on Religion," passed in the Assembly of Virginia
in the year 1786 quote: "Christian creeds and doctrines, the clergy's own
fatal inventions, through all of the ages, has made of Christendom a slaughter
house. What has been the effect of the coercion of Christianity? To make one
half the world fools and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and
error all over the earth."
John Adams: Letter F, Van per Kemp quote: "Christian fables, myths,
legends and tales, blended with Jewish myths, have made them the most
bloody religion that has ever existed, filled with sordid fraud and
superstition."
James Madison, father of the Constitution and Bill of Rights, in a speech to
the General Assembly of Virginia, 1785: "During 15 centuries, the legal
establishment of Christianity has been on trial. What have been the fruits of
that trial? Pride and Indolence in the clergy. Ignorance and servility in the
laity; and in both clergy and laity, superstition, bigotry and persecution."
Presidents month, a celebration of Deism. The next time you hear some
psycho-ceramic perverting and prostituting the religious beliefs of our
Founding Presidents, you might remember the perfect definition of evil --
"militant ignorance."
Or maybe Goethe, said it better: "Nothing is more terrifying than . . .
ignorance in action."<hr></blockquote>
William Edelen is a former minister at the First Congregational Church in
Tacoma, Wash., and lecturer for the Department of Religion at the University of Puget Sound.
Good to hear this stuff from a Christian minister.
<strong>...enlightened person with an IQ above 3. </strong><hr></blockquote>
I think we've found the source of our problem.
[edit: It takes me until June until I get used to the new year, 2002=2003]
[ 02-04-2003: Message edited by: 709 ]</p>
As was said when it was introducted:
[quote]"Nothing can be more certain than that our country was founded in a
spiritual atmosphere and a firm trust in God. While the sentiment of
trust in God is universal and timeless, these particular four words
"In God We Trust" are indigenous to our country...
At the base of our freedom is our faith in God and the desire of
Americans to live by His will and by His guidance. As long as this
country trusts in God, it will prevail. To serve as a constant
reminder of this truth, it is highly desirable that our currency and
coins should bear these inspiring words, "In God We Trust."
--Congressional Record, June 7, 1955, pp 7795-96<hr></blockquote>
It's very intesting in light of what was posted above by SJO.
[ 02-04-2003: Message edited by: giant ]</p>
<strong>As was said when it was introducted:
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Honestly, that quote makes my stomach turn and my blood boil. Thank *God* I vote.
[edit: I don't want to turn this into a 'voting' issue, just reiterating what everyone should know: In this system, every vote counts (unless you live in Florida
[ 02-04-2003: Message edited by: 709 ]</p>
<strong>Didn't any of you learn anything from the South Park episode <a href="http://www.vdare.com/francis/xmas01.htm"; target="_blank">War Against Christmas</a>
This is nothing like that and you know it.
...In which case your vote counts twice the first time, not at all the second, and half the third. The reverse is also true, depending on which side you're on.
Seriously though, like others, I've been destracted from the point of this thread by the tone of it. I got emotionally caught up in an issue that I didn't even know existed until the thread was started. I was under the false impression that "E Pluribus Unum" was still on our money alongside "In God We Trust."
I'm sorry for taking some of these comments personally. It kept me from seeing that BR's main point isn't that God should be hidden away like a dirty secret, and it isn't that everybody who disagrees is an idiot. It's that our national motto and symbols should be above question, something that all Americans can be proud to utter and pledge allegiance to.
Now, in order to spark another aspect of this topic, it occurs to me that what is written on our money should have some economic significance. Our legal tender is, after all, merely a representation right? It has no inherent value, only the value that we assign to it, hence inflation. So shouldn't it say something like "In the Treasury Dept. we Trust," or perhaps "In Greenspan we trust."
If we do want a "national motto" on our money then it should be an official US symbol, just like the Bald Eagle, or the Seal of the United States. And yes, it should be back along the lines of "E Pluribus Unum," something that sums up the common ideals that make us all Americans.
<strong>
...In which case your vote counts twice the first time, not at all the second, and half the third. The reverse is also true, depending on which side you're on.
Seriously though, like others, I've been destracted from the point of this thread by the tone of it. I got emotionally caught up in an issue that I didn't even know existed until the thread was started. I was under the false impression that "E Pluribus Unum" was still on our money alongside "In God We Trust."
I'm sorry for taking some of these comments personally. It kept me from seeing that BR's main point isn't that God should be hidden away like a dirty secret, and it isn't that everybody who disagrees is an idiot. It's that our national motto and symbols should be above question, something that all Americans can be proud to utter and pledge allegiance to.
Now, in order to spark another aspect of this topic, it occurs to me that what is written on our money should have some economic significance. Our legal tender is, after all, merely a representation right? It has no inherent value, only the value that we assign to it, hence inflation. So shouldn't it say something like "In the Treasury Dept. we Trust," or perhaps "In Greenspan we trust."
If we do want a "national motto" on our money then it should be an official US symbol, just like the Bald Eagle, or the Seal of the United States. And yes, it should be back along the lines of "E Pluribus Unum," something that sums up the common ideals that make us all Americans.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Exactly.
[QB]So shouldn't it say something like "In the Treasury Dept. we Trust," or perhaps "In Greenspan we trust."/QB]<hr></blockquote>
How about "Buy Canadian"? That's what we do in the Upper-MidWest anyways