[quote]Originally posted by superkaratemonkeydeathcar:
<strong>please 709 show me some christian mercy.....</strong><hr></blockquote>
How did you know my last name? It's been a bone of contention for me and my family for the last 30 some years. And, yes, since you guessed it, I absolve you and your sins against me .
You'll never hear the president of France say "God Bless France". It would be considered totally inappropriate, in addition to being an endorsement of religion. Instead, he'll say: "Vive la Republique".
Given that France switches from Republique to Democrat to Socialist to Fascist to Whatever by the cycles of the moon, state mottos are just as good as Budweiser commercials IMO.
>> 709: Given that France switches from Republique to Democrat to Socialist to Fascist to Whatever by the cycles of the moon, state mottos are just as good as Budweiser commercials IMO.
Ouch! Take that, France! :eek:
FYI, France has been a republic for a long time. The motto "Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite" dates back to 1789 (the year of the revolution).
I personally like that motto. It's ambitious (if not utopian), but it's still a lot better than God Bless America.
[quote]FYI, France has been a republic for a long time. The motto "Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite" dates back to 1789 (the year of the revolution).<hr></blockquote>
Haven't they gone through like 4 or 5 Republics, plus 2 or 3 Kingdoms/Empires since the revolution? Not to mention whatever they were under the Nazis. The latest Republic, if I remember, only dates to post-WWII.
But to put things in perspective, France murdered tens of thousands of Protestants (Huguenots) in the years before the revolution, and many more during. Like most Europeans, they can't seem to deal with this whole "God" thing without killing each other on a massive scale. Maybe that's why they're all aetheists now. Only prudent thing to do. And they call us uncivilized.
Edit: Oy, why is France-bashing so fun AND so easy?
>> France murdered tens of thousands of Protestants (Huguenots) in the years before the revolution, and many more during.
True. No country is perfect. France has its pluses and minuses, just like the US does. There are a few things about France that I miss (like the government not getting involved with religion in any way, shape or form) but overall I'd rather live in the US (California in particular).
>>Edit: Oy, why is France-bashing so fun AND so easy?
I guess it's easier when you haven't actually lived there...
I wasn't laughing at France per se, just the fact that France has *only* killed ten thousand or so in the name of religion. Heh. Heehee. In the big picture France is next to nothing, no? Hehe. Damn, I'm still laughing.
Haven't they gone through like 4 or 5 Republics, plus 2 or 3 Kingdoms/Empires since the revolution? Not to mention whatever they were under the Nazis. The latest Republic, if I remember, only dates to post-WWII.
Right the four and fith republic where create after WW2. the fifh republic was created by De Gaulle because the fourth republic sucked : a parlementary system with ever-changing coalitions and governements. The fith republic is a presidential system, like in US but with differences.
France was nothing under the nazis : it was called the french state, and has an old senile antisemit puppet (Petain) controlled by the evil Laval (prime minister). Only the south of France was controlled by these people, the north was directly controlled by the nazis.
[quote] But to put things in perspective, France murdered tens of thousands of Protestants (Huguenots) in the years before the revolution, and many more during <hr></blockquote>
The conflict between protestants and catholics has much more to do with politics than anything else (not for the common people, but for the poeple in charge at the time). The catholics killed thousands of protestants, but the the protestants killed also thousands of catholics. They where less dead among catholics than protestants, because they lost this war.
The Terror era under revolution was not scheduled against protestants. It was a terrible dark aera of our history : you where killed simply because your jealous neighboor denonciated you, because you where an aristocrat or an high priest (and i think a catholic one).
[quote]Like most Europeans, they can't seem to deal with this whole "God" thing without killing each other on a massive scale. <hr></blockquote>
As i explained above, it's because it was mixed with politics issues, a struggle of powers between mighty lords of the times : some where catholics the others where protestants. This wasn't the case in the US, where the countrie almost start to scratch with a melting pot of population.
And it was 200 years ago. (on a side note the antisemitism is an another storie with anothers roots.)
[quote] scale. Maybe that's why they're all aetheists now. Only prudent thing to do. And they call us uncivilized. <hr></blockquote>
There is officialy 7 millions of active catholics in France (not counting all poeple who where baptized and married at the church : a lot more), hundreds of thousands of jews (the majority are not religious), and a millions of islam people, plus hundreds of thousands of protestants.
So there is more atheist than religious people, but you canno't speak of "all".
And what is the connection between uncivilized, and atheist ? i know some poeple in those boards who will not appreciate...
And there is an equal number of stupid people in France than in US or than in any other countrie.
[quote] why is it so easy to bash France <hr></blockquote>
Because it's so easy to bash any countrie, or to a larger extense any people. In order to do that, you have just to got a small knowledge of that countrie and a small lack of wisdom.
[quote] France is next to nothing <hr></blockquote>
I think that your problem is it's not the case. It's so irritating that such a small countrie (the fifth countrie in the ecomical power scale) do not obey automatically at what US want and can bring troubles in your foreign policy.
Grow up , we are not alone in the world, we have to deal with many others countries, since the begining of the modern history. I think it's more difficult to France to deal with US than for US to deal with France.
Following on from SJOs post about your founding fathers not being christians but deists and therefore "in God we trust" being wrong I got this from deism.com[
QUOTE]Deist is defined in the same (Websters) dictionary as: "One who believes in the existence of a God or supreme being but denies revealed religion, basing his belief on the light of nature and reason." [/QUOTE]
So while they didn't believe in Christianity they certainly believed in and perhaps trusted ,God. E pluribus unum is still better if you have to have national motto,which you don't.
P.s France isn't far away from me and it isn't that long ago I was careering down some of her slopes, while I disagree with a lot of her (state) actions i love her- give the old girl a break.
[ 02-05-2003: Message edited by: Alex London ]
[ 02-05-2003: Message edited by: Alex London ]</p>
If the framers of the Constitution were not Christians, than why would they agree to Article VII which dates the Constitution in "the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven."?
<strong>If the framers of the Constitution were not Christians, than why would they agree to Article VII which dates the Constitution in "the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven."?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Are you trying to say they were 'Christian,' just because of that line?
<strong>If the framers of the Constitution were not Christians, than why would they agree to Article VII which dates the Constitution in "the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven."?</strong><hr></blockquote>
All the occidental world is referring to this date, however the word of our lord, imply the Christ and thus that those people where christians.
Well if it was so important to them to not have the country appear to have any religous favor, then I would expect them to have simply dated it.
I don't know, maybe some did object to it. But it did stay. In fact most US legal documents were dated in this form, so I suspect that the Courts also saw nothing wrong with perpetuating its use.
Comments
so yeah i've heard of him, but i'll admit to him just being a name before, but now he's my hero since he gets under your skin so much.
[ 02-04-2003: Message edited by: superkaratemonkeydeathcar ]</p>
<strong>please 709 show me some christian mercy.....</strong><hr></blockquote>
How did you know my last name?
For comparison sake:
France: "Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite" (freedom, equality, fraternity).
You'll never hear the president of France say "God Bless France". It would be considered totally inappropriate, in addition to being an endorsement of religion. Instead, he'll say: "Vive la Republique".
<strong>>>Religious State Mottos:
For comparison sake:</strong><hr></blockquote>
Given that France switches from Republique to Democrat to Socialist to Fascist to Whatever by the cycles of the moon, state mottos are just as good as Budweiser commercials IMO.
Ouch! Take that, France! :eek:
FYI, France has been a republic for a long time. The motto "Liberte, Egalite, Fraternite" dates back to 1789 (the year of the revolution).
I personally like that motto. It's ambitious (if not utopian), but it's still a lot better than God Bless America.
[ 02-04-2003: Message edited by: lolo ]</p>
Haven't they gone through like 4 or 5 Republics, plus 2 or 3 Kingdoms/Empires since the revolution? Not to mention whatever they were under the Nazis. The latest Republic, if I remember, only dates to post-WWII.
But to put things in perspective, France murdered tens of thousands of Protestants (Huguenots) in the years before the revolution, and many more during. Like most Europeans, they can't seem to deal with this whole "God" thing without killing each other on a massive scale. Maybe that's why they're all aetheists now. Only prudent thing to do. And they call us uncivilized.
Edit: Oy, why is France-bashing so fun AND so easy?
[ 02-04-2003: Message edited by: Towel ]</p>
<strong>...they can't seem to deal with this whole "God" thing without killing each other on a massive scale...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ha. Haha. Hahahahahahahahaha. You need to put a bunch of smileys after a post like that. Seriously. You're killing me. Hahaha. *sniff* Ha. Haha. Damn.
True. No country is perfect. France has its pluses and minuses, just like the US does. There are a few things about France that I miss (like the government not getting involved with religion in any way, shape or form) but overall I'd rather live in the US (California in particular).
>>Edit: Oy, why is France-bashing so fun AND so easy?
I guess it's easier when you haven't actually lived there...
Peace. :cool:
<strong>
Haven't they gone through like 4 or 5 Republics, plus 2 or 3 Kingdoms/Empires since the revolution? Not to mention whatever they were under the Nazis. The latest Republic, if I remember, only dates to post-WWII.
[ 02-04-2003: Message edited by: Towel ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Right the four and fith republic where create after WW2. the fifh republic was created by De Gaulle because the fourth republic sucked : a parlementary system with ever-changing coalitions and governements. The fith republic is a presidential system, like in US but with differences.
France was nothing under the nazis : it was called the french state, and has an old senile antisemit puppet (Petain) controlled by the evil Laval (prime minister). Only the south of France was controlled by these people, the north was directly controlled by the nazis.
[quote] But to put things in perspective, France murdered tens of thousands of Protestants (Huguenots) in the years before the revolution, and many more during <hr></blockquote>
The conflict between protestants and catholics has much more to do with politics than anything else (not for the common people, but for the poeple in charge at the time). The catholics killed thousands of protestants, but the the protestants killed also thousands of catholics. They where less dead among catholics than protestants, because they lost this war.
The Terror era under revolution was not scheduled against protestants. It was a terrible dark aera of our history : you where killed simply because your jealous neighboor denonciated you, because you where an aristocrat or an high priest (and i think a catholic one).
[quote]Like most Europeans, they can't seem to deal with this whole "God" thing without killing each other on a massive scale. <hr></blockquote>
As i explained above, it's because it was mixed with politics issues, a struggle of powers between mighty lords of the times : some where catholics the others where protestants. This wasn't the case in the US, where the countrie almost start to scratch with a melting pot of population.
And it was 200 years ago. (on a side note the antisemitism is an another storie with anothers roots.)
[quote] scale. Maybe that's why they're all aetheists now. Only prudent thing to do. And they call us uncivilized. <hr></blockquote>
There is officialy 7 millions of active catholics in France (not counting all poeple who where baptized and married at the church : a lot more), hundreds of thousands of jews (the majority are not religious), and a millions of islam people, plus hundreds of thousands of protestants.
So there is more atheist than religious people, but you canno't speak of "all".
And what is the connection between uncivilized, and atheist ? i know some poeple in those boards who will not appreciate...
And there is an equal number of stupid people in France than in US or than in any other countrie.
[quote] why is it so easy to bash France <hr></blockquote>
Because it's so easy to bash any countrie, or to a larger extense any people. In order to do that, you have just to got a small knowledge of that countrie and a small lack of wisdom.
[quote] France is next to nothing <hr></blockquote>
I think that your problem is it's not the case. It's so irritating that such a small countrie (the fifth countrie in the ecomical power scale) do not obey automatically at what US want and can bring troubles in your foreign policy.
Grow up , we are not alone in the world, we have to deal with many others countries, since the begining of the modern history. I think it's more difficult to France to deal with US than for US to deal with France.
[ 02-05-2003: Message edited by: Powerdoc ]</p>
QUOTE]Deist is defined in the same (Websters) dictionary as: "One who believes in the existence of a God or supreme being but denies revealed religion, basing his belief on the light of nature and reason." [/QUOTE]
So while they didn't believe in Christianity they certainly believed in and perhaps trusted ,God. E pluribus unum is still better if you have to have national motto,which you don't.
P.s France isn't far away from me and it isn't that long ago I was careering down some of her slopes, while I disagree with a lot of her (state) actions i love her- give the old girl a break.
[ 02-05-2003: Message edited by: Alex London ]
[ 02-05-2003: Message edited by: Alex London ]</p>
<strong>If the framers of the Constitution were not Christians, than why would they agree to Article VII which dates the Constitution in "the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven."?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Are you trying to say they were 'Christian,' just because of that line?
[ 02-05-2003: Message edited by: giant ]</p>
<strong>If the framers of the Constitution were not Christians, than why would they agree to Article VII which dates the Constitution in "the Year of our Lord one thousand seven hundred and Eighty seven."?</strong><hr></blockquote>
All the occidental world is referring to this date, however the word of our lord, imply the Christ and thus that those people where christians.
<strong>
Are you trying to say they were 'Christian,' just because of that line?
[ 02-05-2003: Message edited by: giant ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well if it was so important to them to not have the country appear to have any religous favor, then I would expect them to have simply dated it.
I don't know, maybe some did object to it. But it did stay. In fact most US legal documents were dated in this form, so I suspect that the Courts also saw nothing wrong with perpetuating its use.