It's funny that you take Nokia as an example because you really don't know your facts. Nokia had a factory making cell phones in South Korea back in the 80s but they didn't see much potential in the nascent South Korean mobile phone market. So they just exported the phones and didn't try to sell their phones here. Nokia's CEO admitted that they should have taken South Korean manufacturers seriously but the Finnish execs thought they were better than some scrappy South Korean maker that nobody in the world had ever heard of. When Nokia finally woke up and tried to sell their cheap bar phones in South Korea they sold them at the retail price of $800. You think a South Korean consumer would be willing to pay $800 for a bar phone in the early 90s? Back in the 90s, that's more than half the monthly salary of a typical South Korean worker.
Nokia eventually pulled out of South Korea because their $800 bar phone wasn't selling well. And years later, Nokia's CEO admitted they committed a big blunder by pulling out. If Nokia had stayed and taken the competition seriously, he said Nokia wouldn't be where it was at the time. Don't blame the shop owner, please. Blame the execs in Finland who pulled the plug around the time you were shopping for a Nokia.
(Btw, the Nokia bar phone might have been priced at upwards of $1200 in Korea. I vaguely recall my mom saying she couldn't afford the Nokia phone because it was over $1000. So she ended up buying a phone from Nokia's inferior competitor. And of course, it broke down often. So their CEO had a fit over the phone's poor quality and burned a pile of them to show what a disgraceful product it was to his employees.)
To start, in terms of standard phones Nokia IS better than 'some South Korean startup' (I take it you mean SamDung?) and has the number one all-time sales records to prove it. In terms of smartphones, Samsung can't even design its own software and desperately tries to copy the iPhone. They're well behind Blackberry too.
Actually I DO blame the shop owners, the Korean chaebol, their media (Korea Herald for example which consistently runs 'articles' about how Korean products are superior to western ones) and millions of the people themselves for keeping companies like Noika out of Korea. It's exactly the same type of domestic protectionism and tariffs that's kept foreign cars out the Korean market.
But what goes around comes around and China is now doing to Korean companies what Koreans have done to western companies for decades. Long after SamDung and Lucky Goldstar have been bought up by Chinese companies, Apple will be around and either sourcing components from Japanese companies like Sharp or making the components themselves. Imitators like SamDung don't usually last in the long run, true innovators like Apple often do. I know where my purchase money will be going.
Imitators like SamDung don't usually last in the long run, true innovators like Apple often do. I know where my purchase money will be going.
If you read Steve Job's biography and watch some of his interviews, Jobs makes the admission that he stole the GUI from Xerox. Which is the lesser evil? Stealing or copying? I don't know. You decide.
Actually I DO blame the shop owners, the Korean chaebol, their media (Korea Herald for example which consistently runs 'articles' about how Korean products are superior to western ones) and millions of the people themselves for keeping companies like Noika out of Korea. It's exactly the same type of domestic protectionism and tariffs that's kept foreign cars out the Korean market.
Do you realize how out of touch the Korean media and chaebol are with the general South Korean population? Have you heard of the 1 percenters who rule at the top? Alright, judge South Koreans based on what mouthpieces say on Korean television. Maybe the rest of the world will judge Americans based on what talking heads on Fox News say.
Is Apple having a tough time cracking the South Korean market? Really? After making $2 billion in iPhone, Macbook and iPad sales in South Korea last year? Come on.
So BMW made nearly $1 billion in annual profits in Korea. What kind of protectionism allows that to happen.
Do you realize how out of touch the Korean media and chaebol are with the general South Korean population? Have you heard of the 1 percenters who rule at the top? Alright, judge South Koreans based on what mouthpieces say on Korean television. Maybe the rest of the world will judge Americans based on what talking heads on Fox News say.
Is Apple having a tough time cracking the South Korean market? Really? After making $2 billion in iPhone, Macbook and iPad sales in South Korea last year? Come on.
So BMW made nearly $1 billion in annual profits in Korea. What kind of protectionism allows that to happen.
Oh, the 'logic' of Korean nationalism. Look, man, you can't just cite some exceptions to the rule hoping it will disprove the rule. Are some things changing a bit for some foreign auto companies in Korea? Yes, but hardly at a pace that threatens Korean companies' domestic market share.
Every foreigner I met in Korea and the vast majority of Koreans themselves observed—like the sky is blue—that it is an extremely protectionist culture. The former usually thought it was a bad thing, the latter often thought it necessary for keeping jobs; fair enough. But you seem to be in total denial that it's there at all which is very strange indeed. You're Korean but have you lived or worked there in the past ten years?
You contrast Korea Now with Korea Then and see a little bit of change. What I'm doing is comparing Korea Now with Most of the Rest of the World Now and seeing a Korea that continues to be hostile to most foreigners who try to do business there and make a return on their investment. In that regard Korea probably has more in common with the Bait-Imitate-Devour tactics of China than with any other nation.
Furthermore, your figures are extremely misleading. You throw out a distractor like "BMW made nearly $1 billion in annual profits in Korea" (source?) without providing any comparative context, crucial when we're debating something like domestic vs. import auto sales. So let me help you there. BMW sold about 20,000 units in Korea last year. Ok, that's nice for BMW who are seeing similar sales increases globally, and nice for Korean parts suppliers too. But contrast that with TOTAL auto sales in Korea of well over 1 MILLION units this year
In addition, you mention a niche market luxury car company like BMW—which doesn't even make the top ten in overall Korean market share— as proof of the nosediving of the Korean nationalist mindset (?!) Even GM Korea (itself a third-owned by the Korea Development Bank) has a market share in Korea of less than 10%, despite having the factories right on the ground. You also previously cited the percentage increase of foreign car manufacturers' sales in Korea without mentioning that Korean auto manufacturers are showing even greater percentage increases in their foreign market inroads (e.g. to the US).
Moreover, and these are the only big-picture numbers that really matter, let's compare the 2011 percentage of foreign autos sold in the US (approximately 50%) vs. the 2011 percentage of foreign cars sold in Korea (only around 9%). With figures like those I have to ask you exactly how those 'non-nationalistic' Koreans who make up the remaining 89% of car purchasers are so distinct from those 'out-of-touch' chaebol bosses you mention?
And YES I do call that protectionism and so would most other people. But you seem to have your own definition.
Oh, the 'logic' of Korean nationalism. Look, man, you can't just cite some exceptions to the rule hoping it will disprove the rule.
Every foreigner I met in Korea and about every Korean too observed—like the sky is blue—that it is an extremely protectionist culture.
I'm baffled that you're saying I'm giving examples that are exceptions to the rule. So all these foreign companies, and mind you most of them are American corporations, are making no money at all in South Korea? Is that what you're trying to tell me? So those Boeing planes in the Korean Air and Asiana fleet never translated into profits? They were given to Korea as gifts? All those military purchases were not profitable at all to the U.S. defense contractors? Btw, South Korea is the world's third largest arms importer. (I'm not proud of that) Every profit from a cup of Starbuck coffee that is sold in 338 stores around Korea go to the local Korean partner, too? I didn't know that Howard Schultz was that gullible. He seemed to be very smart based on the book he wrote. I said that Lone Star Funds made $4 billion in a year here but that has to be an exception too I guess. And the success of Domino's Pizza in Korea is another exception. And Citibank, and The North Face and Nike... All of these companies are having such a hard time due to Korea's protectionist policies that they wish to go home after staying here for 10-plus years? Do you need an article link to believe this or else it didn't happen? Is your Google search engine not functioning, sir?
And you keep saying that Koreans won't buy American cars. So tell me this. Do Japanese people buy American cars? Do German consumers buy American cars? You blame Korea's protectionist policies as the number one reason why American cars have a miniscule market share here. But Japan and German play by the rules, right? Their people are not nationalistic. They just have a non-nationalistic tendency to buy domestic brands, right? Uh-huh.
And YES I do call that protectionism and so would most other people. But you seem to have your own definition.
Protectionism is a situation where a country makes it impossible for a foreign company to come into the domestic market and do business. Have you heard of India preventing Wal-Mart from entering its market? That's protectionism.
Your definition of protectionism goes like this. If you don't see an American car in country A, then that's blatant protectionism. You betcha. And it proves that the people in country A are nationalistic and xenophobic to the hilt. It doesn't matter that a Chevy Tahoe or F-150 truck is a gas guzzler and too wide for the streets in country A. If the people there are not buying and driving them, then they are anti-American. So as long as you eliminate NTBs, the consumers in country A will flock and buy them. To hell with $8-a-gallon gas, which is the price in most European countries as well as in Korea. To hell with the $23,000 MSRP or $30,000 for that F-150 model. It's America's bestselling truck so it should sell well anywhere. People in the world should be able to afford them like Americans despite the fact that a billion people live below the poverty line and 3 billion live on less than $2.50 a day. Just break down the protectionist barriers and GM and Ford will be able to sell millions of trucks to the world.
Protectionism is a situation where a country makes it impossible for a foreign company to come into the domestic market and do business. Have you heard of India preventing Wal-Mart from entering its market? That's protectionism.
Your definition of protectionism goes like this. If you don't see an American car in country A, then that's blatant protectionism. You betcha. And it proves that the people in country A are nationalistic and xenophobic to the hilt. It doesn't matter that a Chevy Tahoe or F-150 truck is a gas guzzler and too wide for the streets in country A. If the people there are not buying and driving them, then they are anti-American. So as long as you eliminate NTBs, the consumers in country A will flock and buy them. To hell with $8-a-gallon gas, which is the price in most European countries as well as in Korea. To hell with the $23,000 MSRP or $30,000 for that F-150 model. It's America's bestselling truck so it should sell well anywhere. People in the world should be able to afford them like Americans despite the fact that a billion people live below the poverty line and 3 billion live on less than $2.50 a day. Just break down the protectionist barriers and GM and Ford will be able to sell millions of trucks to the world.
First of all, in reference to your previous post, we're talking about the foreign share of the Korean domestic auto market, not the foreign share of the German domestic auto market. But ok, I'll play that game if you insist. Can you provide me with those figures? I'd be very surprised to find that Germans buy a lower percentage of foreign cars than Koreans do and will concede this argument if you can show me that they do. ...Nevermind, I've looked at the numbers and they show that even the protectionist Germans are not nearly so nationalistic as Koreans. Foreign auto sales in Korea have yet to reach 10% of the total market share while in Germany that figure is around 35-40%. ( http://henk-bekker.suite101.com/list...n-2010-a328223 ).
No offense but you keep returning to an avoidance of my basic argument here. Yes the Japanese are also very protectionist but just because they are doesn't mean Koreans are not. Why the continuous diversions? As for protectionism, it's rarely an all-or-nothing entity; rather it's usually a death of a thousand cuts approach rather than outright bans onALL things foreign (even Dear Leader Kim Jung-Il recognizes this definition every time he thwarts his own juche ideology by importing tons of Johnny Walker, Hennessey Cognac and porn. Or did you make up that definition yourself?
By the way many of the examples you listed as being profitable for western companies are legitimate, but these aren't the kinds of businesses we're talking about. Why not? The difference with the examples you just provided is that these are areas in which Korea has no real expertise or experience and currently no hope of matching the west. Viz. Korea simply doesn't know how to make them and would be in violation of more than copying Apple's iPad if they ever tried to do so. For example, Korea can manufacture a lot of shiny things but it simply can't come close to the west in fields like aeronautical engineering, armaments, aerospace, biotech, or many other of the most cutting edge scientific fields in the world today, at least not at this time. In the future, who knows? But anyway, with the political path Korea has chosen/or had forced on it, it has had 'no choice' but to purchase these things from outside Korea, be they fighter planes or financial services. I'll agree with you on this, I also think that the maintenance of US bases in Korea and those massive arms contracts are a huge waste of resources for both countries. Obscene really.
Anyway, I don't know where you went to school but it's frankly quite amazing that now you're saying that Koreans buy 90% Korean cars because *drum roll* "American vehicles are too wide for Korean roads"???? If so, then why haven't Koreans bought smaller German, Russian or French models instead? The last time I checked, Korean highways and city streets were in pretty good shape and plenty wide enough to accommodate all manner of buses and 18-wheel trucks. And you're now trying to tell me that Koreans are too poor to afford an imported car??!? What?!?? Well they sure have money for all kinds of other stuff! But maybe the price of those foreign car imports could change if the Korean government dropped the tariffs. BMW prices there are the highest in the world.
Again I have to ask you if you've even lived in Korea over the past ten years? I have and it's not at all the same Korea you're obviously dreaming of. Maybe you were there in 1954 when the highways were cowpaths and people actually were poor? Trust me, they have much better roads now and no-one is even close to starving (actually obesity is becoming a 'huge' problem there, too).
Korean nationalism... ya just gotta love it folks!!!
By the way many of the examples you listed as being profitable for western companies are legitimate, but these aren't the kinds of businesses we're talking about. Why not? The difference with the examples you just provided is that these are areas in which Korea has no real expertise or experience and currently no hope of matching the west. Viz. Korea simply doesn't know how to make them and would be in violation of more than copying Apple's iPad if they ever tried to do so. For example, Korea can manufacture a lot of shiny things but it simply can't come close to the west in fields like aeronautical engineering, armaments, aerospace, biotech, or many other of the most cutting edge scientific fields in the world today, at least not at this time. In the future, who knows? But anyway, with the political path Korea has chosen/or had forced on it, it has had 'no choice' but to purchase these things from outside Korea, be they fighter planes or financial services.
This is how trade works. Let's say Country A only grows lemons while Country B only grows apples. So Country A trades its lemons for Country B's apples. And vice versa.
This is how trade works. Let's say Country A only grows lemons while Country B only grows apples. So Country A trades its lemons for Country B's apples. And vice versa.
Wow, thank you for that illuminating lesson. Very informative.
I don't know where you went to school but it's frankly quite amazing that now you're saying that Koreans buy 90% Korean cars because *drum roll* "American vehicles are too wide for Korean roads"???? If so, then why haven't Koreans bought smaller German, Russian or French models instead? The last time I checked Korean highways and city streets were in pretty good shape and plenty wide enough to accommodate all manner of buses and 18-wheel trucks.
The roads here are not as wide as American roads. And gas is $8 a gallon so it's obvious why Koreans won't be enticed to buy a Chevy or Ford truck. And those big city buses have their own bus lanes.
The roads here are not as wide as American roads. And gas is $8 a gallon so it's obvious why Koreans won't be enticed to buy a Chevy or Ford truck. And those big city buses have their own bus lanes.
Again you simply refused to answer the question and provide any logical refutation. Reminder: Why then don't Koreans buy smaller French or Italian cars, etc. if "the roads are too narrow" Why don't you name some of those "too narrow" roads, or have you even been there?
I've dealt with many a Korean nationalist before and predictably, like you, they just keep running around in the same old circles.
Tell you what, I'm going for a beer but while I'm away you try again and maybe I'll get to you later.
You keep stacking' 'em, I'll keep knocking' 'em down. Do me a favor and try to get some more juicy ones like "Korean roads are too narrow" will you? I really loved that one!
The roads here are not as wide as American roads. And gas is $8 a gallon so it's obvious why Koreans won't be enticed to buy a Chevy or Ford truck. And those big city buses have their own bus lanes.
That's only on the inter-city highways, not IN the cities themselves. If so what you'd be implying is that the bus lanes on those highways are wider than the car lanes? Which is both absurd engineering and a false statement. You've obviously never even been there during your adult life. Your arguments are quickly atomizing my man, just as they always do with Korean nationalists. (Tip: get some new material but fast!)
We're all having a great laugh at this thread in my office. Please keep the good stuff coming. It's comedy gold.
Again you simply refused to answer the question and provide any logical refutation. Reminder: Why then don't Koreans buy smaller French or Italian cars, etc. if "the roads are too narrow" Why don't you name some of those "too narrow" roads, or have you even been there?
I've dealt with many a Korean nationalist before and predictably, like you, they just keep running around in the same old circles.
You keep stacking' 'em, I'll keep knocking' 'em down. Do me a favor and try to get some more juicy ones like "Korean roads are too narrow" will you? I really loved that one!
I've dealt with people who don't accept the facts especially when the facts contradict what they believe. I never once said that Koreans are not nationalistic. What I've been saying again and again like a broken record is that multinationals are doing very well in South Korea. So your constant spiel that these are flukes and exceptions to the rule are well, flat wrong. I concede that there is protectionism in Korea but the U.S. has no protectionism, right? Uh-huh. Don't mind the U.S. farm subsidies. That's sacred. You can't go there, right? And those no-bid contracts awarded to Boeing. That's not a subsidy (a form of NTBs). Even if the EU courts say it is, to hell with them.
That's only on the inter-city highways, not IN the cities themselves. If so what you'd be implying is that the bus lanes on those highways are wider than the car lanes? Which is both absurd engineering and a false statement. You've obviously never even been there during your adult life. Your arguments are quickly atomizing my man, just as they always do with Korean nationalists. (Tip: get some new material but fast!)
We're all having a great laugh at this thread in my office. Please keep the good stuff coming. It's comedy gold.
There are bus lanes in the city. President Lee Myung-bak got elected on the platform of beautifying Seoul with the Cheonggyecheon stream and creating separate city bus lanes to alleviate traffic congestion. I got ticketed for driving in the city bus lane once. So tell me, how much do you know about Korea again?
Again you simply refused to answer the question and provide any logical refutation. Reminder: Why then don't Koreans buy smaller French or Italian cars, etc. if "the roads are too narrow" Why don't you name some of those "too narrow" roads, or have you even been there?
Peugeot sells subcompact cars in Korea for over $30,000. Enough said.
Have you ever driven a car in Seoul? Obviously, you haven't. Try driving through a paved side road (golmokgil) in Gangbuk and even Gangnam for that matter. You'll get into some tight places where you can get jammed all by yourself without any incoming traffic. So you won't see a Mercedes S-Class limousine or a Bentley or a Rolls driving through a side road in Korea. Don't even think about making a P-turn in a Chevy Suburban in Gangbuk. You'll be stuck forever.
Again, I keep wondering if your Google search engine isn't working right. You could save yourself from passing along misinformation disgused as facts. Let me help you. Type "city bus lanes seoul" in your preferred search engine. You're welcome.
Your arguments are quickly atomizing my man, just as they always do with Korean nationalists. (Tip: get some new material but fast!)
We're all having a great laugh at this thread in my office. Please keep the good stuff coming. It's comedy gold.
I presume everyone in your office gets informative news from Fox News. They're fair and balanced.
I give you some facts that can easily be Googled (thought you might need to be able to read Korean to check some facts) and you call me a Korean nationalist. So now we're playing the name game. Sorry but I don't want my IQ to drop that low.
Comments
It's funny that you take Nokia as an example because you really don't know your facts. Nokia had a factory making cell phones in South Korea back in the 80s but they didn't see much potential in the nascent South Korean mobile phone market. So they just exported the phones and didn't try to sell their phones here. Nokia's CEO admitted that they should have taken South Korean manufacturers seriously but the Finnish execs thought they were better than some scrappy South Korean maker that nobody in the world had ever heard of. When Nokia finally woke up and tried to sell their cheap bar phones in South Korea they sold them at the retail price of $800. You think a South Korean consumer would be willing to pay $800 for a bar phone in the early 90s? Back in the 90s, that's more than half the monthly salary of a typical South Korean worker.
Nokia eventually pulled out of South Korea because their $800 bar phone wasn't selling well. And years later, Nokia's CEO admitted they committed a big blunder by pulling out. If Nokia had stayed and taken the competition seriously, he said Nokia wouldn't be where it was at the time. Don't blame the shop owner, please. Blame the execs in Finland who pulled the plug around the time you were shopping for a Nokia.
(Btw, the Nokia bar phone might have been priced at upwards of $1200 in Korea. I vaguely recall my mom saying she couldn't afford the Nokia phone because it was over $1000. So she ended up buying a phone from Nokia's inferior competitor. And of course, it broke down often. So their CEO had a fit over the phone's poor quality and burned a pile of them to show what a disgraceful product it was to his employees.)
To start, in terms of standard phones Nokia IS better than 'some South Korean startup' (I take it you mean SamDung?) and has the number one all-time sales records to prove it. In terms of smartphones, Samsung can't even design its own software and desperately tries to copy the iPhone. They're well behind Blackberry too.
Actually I DO blame the shop owners, the Korean chaebol, their media (Korea Herald for example which consistently runs 'articles' about how Korean products are superior to western ones) and millions of the people themselves for keeping companies like Noika out of Korea. It's exactly the same type of domestic protectionism and tariffs that's kept foreign cars out the Korean market.
But what goes around comes around and China is now doing to Korean companies what Koreans have done to western companies for decades. Long after SamDung and Lucky Goldstar have been bought up by Chinese companies, Apple will be around and either sourcing components from Japanese companies like Sharp or making the components themselves. Imitators like SamDung don't usually last in the long run, true innovators like Apple often do. I know where my purchase money will be going.
Imitators like SamDung don't usually last in the long run, true innovators like Apple often do. I know where my purchase money will be going.
If you read Steve Job's biography and watch some of his interviews, Jobs makes the admission that he stole the GUI from Xerox. Which is the lesser evil? Stealing or copying? I don't know. You decide.
Actually I DO blame the shop owners, the Korean chaebol, their media (Korea Herald for example which consistently runs 'articles' about how Korean products are superior to western ones) and millions of the people themselves for keeping companies like Noika out of Korea. It's exactly the same type of domestic protectionism and tariffs that's kept foreign cars out the Korean market.
Do you realize how out of touch the Korean media and chaebol are with the general South Korean population? Have you heard of the 1 percenters who rule at the top? Alright, judge South Koreans based on what mouthpieces say on Korean television. Maybe the rest of the world will judge Americans based on what talking heads on Fox News say.
Is Apple having a tough time cracking the South Korean market? Really? After making $2 billion in iPhone, Macbook and iPad sales in South Korea last year? Come on.
So BMW made nearly $1 billion in annual profits in Korea. What kind of protectionism allows that to happen.
Do you realize how out of touch the Korean media and chaebol are with the general South Korean population? Have you heard of the 1 percenters who rule at the top? Alright, judge South Koreans based on what mouthpieces say on Korean television. Maybe the rest of the world will judge Americans based on what talking heads on Fox News say.
Is Apple having a tough time cracking the South Korean market? Really? After making $2 billion in iPhone, Macbook and iPad sales in South Korea last year? Come on.
So BMW made nearly $1 billion in annual profits in Korea. What kind of protectionism allows that to happen.
Oh, the 'logic' of Korean nationalism. Look, man, you can't just cite some exceptions to the rule hoping it will disprove the rule. Are some things changing a bit for some foreign auto companies in Korea? Yes, but hardly at a pace that threatens Korean companies' domestic market share.
Every foreigner I met in Korea and the vast majority of Koreans themselves observed—like the sky is blue—that it is an extremely protectionist culture. The former usually thought it was a bad thing, the latter often thought it necessary for keeping jobs; fair enough. But you seem to be in total denial that it's there at all which is very strange indeed. You're Korean but have you lived or worked there in the past ten years?
You contrast Korea Now with Korea Then and see a little bit of change. What I'm doing is comparing Korea Now with Most of the Rest of the World Now and seeing a Korea that continues to be hostile to most foreigners who try to do business there and make a return on their investment. In that regard Korea probably has more in common with the Bait-Imitate-Devour tactics of China than with any other nation.
Furthermore, your figures are extremely misleading. You throw out a distractor like "BMW made nearly $1 billion in annual profits in Korea" (source?) without providing any comparative context, crucial when we're debating something like domestic vs. import auto sales. So let me help you there. BMW sold about 20,000 units in Korea last year. Ok, that's nice for BMW who are seeing similar sales increases globally, and nice for Korean parts suppliers too. But contrast that with TOTAL auto sales in Korea of well over 1 MILLION units this year
( http://mobile.bloomberg.com/news/201...e-sales-table- ). ...You can do the math.
In addition, you mention a niche market luxury car company like BMW—which doesn't even make the top ten in overall Korean market share— as proof of the nosediving of the Korean nationalist mindset (?!) Even GM Korea (itself a third-owned by the Korea Development Bank) has a market share in Korea of less than 10%, despite having the factories right on the ground. You also previously cited the percentage increase of foreign car manufacturers' sales in Korea without mentioning that Korean auto manufacturers are showing even greater percentage increases in their foreign market inroads (e.g. to the US).
Moreover, and these are the only big-picture numbers that really matter, let's compare the 2011 percentage of foreign autos sold in the US (approximately 50%) vs. the 2011 percentage of foreign cars sold in Korea (only around 9%). With figures like those I have to ask you exactly how those 'non-nationalistic' Koreans who make up the remaining 89% of car purchasers are so distinct from those 'out-of-touch' chaebol bosses you mention?
And YES I do call that protectionism and so would most other people. But you seem to have your own definition.
Oh, the 'logic' of Korean nationalism. Look, man, you can't just cite some exceptions to the rule hoping it will disprove the rule.
Every foreigner I met in Korea and about every Korean too observed—like the sky is blue—that it is an extremely protectionist culture.
I'm baffled that you're saying I'm giving examples that are exceptions to the rule. So all these foreign companies, and mind you most of them are American corporations, are making no money at all in South Korea? Is that what you're trying to tell me? So those Boeing planes in the Korean Air and Asiana fleet never translated into profits? They were given to Korea as gifts? All those military purchases were not profitable at all to the U.S. defense contractors? Btw, South Korea is the world's third largest arms importer. (I'm not proud of that) Every profit from a cup of Starbuck coffee that is sold in 338 stores around Korea go to the local Korean partner, too? I didn't know that Howard Schultz was that gullible. He seemed to be very smart based on the book he wrote. I said that Lone Star Funds made $4 billion in a year here but that has to be an exception too I guess. And the success of Domino's Pizza in Korea is another exception. And Citibank, and The North Face and Nike... All of these companies are having such a hard time due to Korea's protectionist policies that they wish to go home after staying here for 10-plus years? Do you need an article link to believe this or else it didn't happen? Is your Google search engine not functioning, sir?
And you keep saying that Koreans won't buy American cars. So tell me this. Do Japanese people buy American cars? Do German consumers buy American cars? You blame Korea's protectionist policies as the number one reason why American cars have a miniscule market share here. But Japan and German play by the rules, right? Their people are not nationalistic. They just have a non-nationalistic tendency to buy domestic brands, right? Uh-huh.
And YES I do call that protectionism and so would most other people. But you seem to have your own definition.
Protectionism is a situation where a country makes it impossible for a foreign company to come into the domestic market and do business. Have you heard of India preventing Wal-Mart from entering its market? That's protectionism.
Your definition of protectionism goes like this. If you don't see an American car in country A, then that's blatant protectionism. You betcha. And it proves that the people in country A are nationalistic and xenophobic to the hilt. It doesn't matter that a Chevy Tahoe or F-150 truck is a gas guzzler and too wide for the streets in country A. If the people there are not buying and driving them, then they are anti-American. So as long as you eliminate NTBs, the consumers in country A will flock and buy them. To hell with $8-a-gallon gas, which is the price in most European countries as well as in Korea. To hell with the $23,000 MSRP or $30,000 for that F-150 model. It's America's bestselling truck so it should sell well anywhere. People in the world should be able to afford them like Americans despite the fact that a billion people live below the poverty line and 3 billion live on less than $2.50 a day. Just break down the protectionist barriers and GM and Ford will be able to sell millions of trucks to the world.
Protectionism is a situation where a country makes it impossible for a foreign company to come into the domestic market and do business. Have you heard of India preventing Wal-Mart from entering its market? That's protectionism.
Your definition of protectionism goes like this. If you don't see an American car in country A, then that's blatant protectionism. You betcha. And it proves that the people in country A are nationalistic and xenophobic to the hilt. It doesn't matter that a Chevy Tahoe or F-150 truck is a gas guzzler and too wide for the streets in country A. If the people there are not buying and driving them, then they are anti-American. So as long as you eliminate NTBs, the consumers in country A will flock and buy them. To hell with $8-a-gallon gas, which is the price in most European countries as well as in Korea. To hell with the $23,000 MSRP or $30,000 for that F-150 model. It's America's bestselling truck so it should sell well anywhere. People in the world should be able to afford them like Americans despite the fact that a billion people live below the poverty line and 3 billion live on less than $2.50 a day. Just break down the protectionist barriers and GM and Ford will be able to sell millions of trucks to the world.
First of all, in reference to your previous post, we're talking about the foreign share of the Korean domestic auto market, not the foreign share of the German domestic auto market. But ok, I'll play that game if you insist. Can you provide me with those figures? I'd be very surprised to find that Germans buy a lower percentage of foreign cars than Koreans do and will concede this argument if you can show me that they do. ...Nevermind, I've looked at the numbers and they show that even the protectionist Germans are not nearly so nationalistic as Koreans. Foreign auto sales in Korea have yet to reach 10% of the total market share while in Germany that figure is around 35-40%. ( http://henk-bekker.suite101.com/list...n-2010-a328223 ).
No offense but you keep returning to an avoidance of my basic argument here. Yes the Japanese are also very protectionist but just because they are doesn't mean Koreans are not. Why the continuous diversions? As for protectionism, it's rarely an all-or-nothing entity; rather it's usually a death of a thousand cuts approach rather than outright bans onALL things foreign (even Dear Leader Kim Jung-Il recognizes this definition every time he thwarts his own juche ideology by importing tons of Johnny Walker, Hennessey Cognac and porn. Or did you make up that definition yourself?
By the way many of the examples you listed as being profitable for western companies are legitimate, but these aren't the kinds of businesses we're talking about. Why not? The difference with the examples you just provided is that these are areas in which Korea has no real expertise or experience and currently no hope of matching the west. Viz. Korea simply doesn't know how to make them and would be in violation of more than copying Apple's iPad if they ever tried to do so. For example, Korea can manufacture a lot of shiny things but it simply can't come close to the west in fields like aeronautical engineering, armaments, aerospace, biotech, or many other of the most cutting edge scientific fields in the world today, at least not at this time. In the future, who knows? But anyway, with the political path Korea has chosen/or had forced on it, it has had 'no choice' but to purchase these things from outside Korea, be they fighter planes or financial services. I'll agree with you on this, I also think that the maintenance of US bases in Korea and those massive arms contracts are a huge waste of resources for both countries. Obscene really.
Anyway, I don't know where you went to school but it's frankly quite amazing that now you're saying that Koreans buy 90% Korean cars because *drum roll* "American vehicles are too wide for Korean roads"???? If so, then why haven't Koreans bought smaller German, Russian or French models instead? The last time I checked, Korean highways and city streets were in pretty good shape and plenty wide enough to accommodate all manner of buses and 18-wheel trucks. And you're now trying to tell me that Koreans are too poor to afford an imported car??!? What?!?? Well they sure have money for all kinds of other stuff! But maybe the price of those foreign car imports could change if the Korean government dropped the tariffs. BMW prices there are the highest in the world.
Again I have to ask you if you've even lived in Korea over the past ten years? I have and it's not at all the same Korea you're obviously dreaming of. Maybe you were there in 1954 when the highways were cowpaths and people actually were poor? Trust me, they have much better roads now and no-one is even close to starving (actually obesity is becoming a 'huge' problem there, too).
Korean nationalism... ya just gotta love it folks!!!
By the way many of the examples you listed as being profitable for western companies are legitimate, but these aren't the kinds of businesses we're talking about. Why not? The difference with the examples you just provided is that these are areas in which Korea has no real expertise or experience and currently no hope of matching the west. Viz. Korea simply doesn't know how to make them and would be in violation of more than copying Apple's iPad if they ever tried to do so. For example, Korea can manufacture a lot of shiny things but it simply can't come close to the west in fields like aeronautical engineering, armaments, aerospace, biotech, or many other of the most cutting edge scientific fields in the world today, at least not at this time. In the future, who knows? But anyway, with the political path Korea has chosen/or had forced on it, it has had 'no choice' but to purchase these things from outside Korea, be they fighter planes or financial services.
This is how trade works. Let's say Country A only grows lemons while Country B only grows apples. So Country A trades its lemons for Country B's apples. And vice versa.
Maybe the price of imports could change if the Korean government dropped the tariffs on imports. BMW prices there are the highest in the world.
BMWs cost more in Germany than they do in South Korea. That's misinformation. I know that for a fact because I drive one.
This is how trade works. Let's say Country A only grows lemons while Country B only grows apples. So Country A trades its lemons for Country B's apples. And vice versa.
Wow, thank you for that illuminating lesson. Very informative.
I don't know where you went to school but it's frankly quite amazing that now you're saying that Koreans buy 90% Korean cars because *drum roll* "American vehicles are too wide for Korean roads"???? If so, then why haven't Koreans bought smaller German, Russian or French models instead? The last time I checked Korean highways and city streets were in pretty good shape and plenty wide enough to accommodate all manner of buses and 18-wheel trucks.
The roads here are not as wide as American roads. And gas is $8 a gallon so it's obvious why Koreans won't be enticed to buy a Chevy or Ford truck. And those big city buses have their own bus lanes.
Wow, thank you for that illuminating lesson. Very informative.
Yes, yes, yes. You're welcome.
BMWs cost more in Germany than they do in South Korea. That's misinformation. I know that for a fact because I drive one.
Got a source for that fact mister? Or did you buy a BMW in Korea and then buy another in Germany recently?
You know, that's great for you. Since I lost my job at the Ford plant all I can afford is a Hyundai Pony.
...
Yes, yes, yes. You're welcome.
Cool. Now that I know that stuff I'm sure I'll be able to get into a top Korean university.
The roads here are not as wide as American roads. And gas is $8 a gallon so it's obvious why Koreans won't be enticed to buy a Chevy or Ford truck. And those big city buses have their own bus lanes.
Again you simply refused to answer the question and provide any logical refutation. Reminder: Why then don't Koreans buy smaller French or Italian cars, etc. if "the roads are too narrow" Why don't you name some of those "too narrow" roads, or have you even been there?
I've dealt with many a Korean nationalist before and predictably, like you, they just keep running around in the same old circles.
Tell you what, I'm going for a beer but while I'm away you try again and maybe I'll get to you later.
You keep stacking' 'em, I'll keep knocking' 'em down. Do me a favor and try to get some more juicy ones like "Korean roads are too narrow" will you? I really loved that one!
Gotta run now, later dude.
The roads here are not as wide as American roads. And gas is $8 a gallon so it's obvious why Koreans won't be enticed to buy a Chevy or Ford truck. And those big city buses have their own bus lanes.
That's only on the inter-city highways, not IN the cities themselves. If so what you'd be implying is that the bus lanes on those highways are wider than the car lanes? Which is both absurd engineering and a false statement. You've obviously never even been there during your adult life. Your arguments are quickly atomizing my man, just as they always do with Korean nationalists. (Tip: get some new material but fast!)
We're all having a great laugh at this thread in my office. Please keep the good stuff coming. It's comedy gold.
Again you simply refused to answer the question and provide any logical refutation. Reminder: Why then don't Koreans buy smaller French or Italian cars, etc. if "the roads are too narrow" Why don't you name some of those "too narrow" roads, or have you even been there?
I've dealt with many a Korean nationalist before and predictably, like you, they just keep running around in the same old circles.
You keep stacking' 'em, I'll keep knocking' 'em down. Do me a favor and try to get some more juicy ones like "Korean roads are too narrow" will you? I really loved that one!
I've dealt with people who don't accept the facts especially when the facts contradict what they believe. I never once said that Koreans are not nationalistic. What I've been saying again and again like a broken record is that multinationals are doing very well in South Korea. So your constant spiel that these are flukes and exceptions to the rule are well, flat wrong. I concede that there is protectionism in Korea but the U.S. has no protectionism, right? Uh-huh. Don't mind the U.S. farm subsidies. That's sacred. You can't go there, right? And those no-bid contracts awarded to Boeing. That's not a subsidy (a form of NTBs). Even if the EU courts say it is, to hell with them.
That's only on the inter-city highways, not IN the cities themselves. If so what you'd be implying is that the bus lanes on those highways are wider than the car lanes? Which is both absurd engineering and a false statement. You've obviously never even been there during your adult life. Your arguments are quickly atomizing my man, just as they always do with Korean nationalists. (Tip: get some new material but fast!)
We're all having a great laugh at this thread in my office. Please keep the good stuff coming. It's comedy gold.
There are bus lanes in the city. President Lee Myung-bak got elected on the platform of beautifying Seoul with the Cheonggyecheon stream and creating separate city bus lanes to alleviate traffic congestion. I got ticketed for driving in the city bus lane once. So tell me, how much do you know about Korea again?
Again you simply refused to answer the question and provide any logical refutation. Reminder: Why then don't Koreans buy smaller French or Italian cars, etc. if "the roads are too narrow" Why don't you name some of those "too narrow" roads, or have you even been there?
Peugeot sells subcompact cars in Korea for over $30,000. Enough said.
Have you ever driven a car in Seoul? Obviously, you haven't. Try driving through a paved side road (golmokgil) in Gangbuk and even Gangnam for that matter. You'll get into some tight places where you can get jammed all by yourself without any incoming traffic. So you won't see a Mercedes S-Class limousine or a Bentley or a Rolls driving through a side road in Korea. Don't even think about making a P-turn in a Chevy Suburban in Gangbuk. You'll be stuck forever.
Again, I keep wondering if your Google search engine isn't working right. You could save yourself from passing along misinformation disgused as facts. Let me help you. Type "city bus lanes seoul" in your preferred search engine. You're welcome.
Your arguments are quickly atomizing my man, just as they always do with Korean nationalists. (Tip: get some new material but fast!)
We're all having a great laugh at this thread in my office. Please keep the good stuff coming. It's comedy gold.
I presume everyone in your office gets informative news from Fox News. They're fair and balanced.
I give you some facts that can easily be Googled (thought you might need to be able to read Korean to check some facts) and you call me a Korean nationalist. So now we're playing the name game. Sorry but I don't want my IQ to drop that low.