What I'm doing is comparing Korea Now with Most of the Rest of the World Now and seeing a Korea that continues to be hostile to most foreigners who try to do business there and make a return on their investment.
Yes the Japanese are also very protectionist but just because they are doesn't mean Koreans are not. Why the continuous diversions?
When I try to compare Korea to Germany or Japan or the rest of the world you accuse me of making "continous diversions." But when you give examples comparing Korea Now with Most of the Rest of the World Now you're just making a fair and balanced point.
Do you know how to debate? Which news channel do you watch religiously? I think I know.
Again, I've debated people who like to say, "you're continually making diversions," or "that's off topic" when the counterargument thrown at them doesn't jibe with their prepared response.
Even GM Korea (itself a third-owned by the Korea Development Bank) has a market share in Korea of less than 10%, despite having the factories right on the ground.
Did it ever occur to you that GM Korea under GM management could have been been badly mismanaged? Do you truly know the whole story behind their poor performance in Korea? You believe GM has able and talented managers who would never need, god forbid, a U.S. government bailout?
I won't go into too much detail because you have a tendency of discrediting any facts I state if they don't have those cute web links right below them. But GM Korea closed down all their dealerships in Korea. That's right. They shredded the dealership contracts with Koreans and said they would start with a fresh clean slate and recruit new dealers. What a great way to run a business. Slash and burn.
Have you ever driven a car in Seoul? Obviously, you haven't. Try driving through a paved side road (golmokgil) in Gangbuk and even Gangnam for that matter. You'll get into some tight places where you can get jammed all by yourself without any incoming traffic. So you won't see a Mercedes S-Class limousine or a Bentley or a Rolls driving through a side road in Korea. Don't even think about making a P-turn in a Chevy Suburban in Gangbuk. You'll be stuck forever.
HAHAHA, it got even better while I was out. Thanks man. So NOW you're saying that the majority of Koreans live on side streets that are inaccessible by pretty much any foreign vehicle, but are magically accessible by any Korean car!? What happened to all those 20 story apartment buildings and how are furniture deliveries, etc. made, by ox-cart?
But that's not all folks, according to eric475, westerners tend to mostly drive Rolls Royces and Bentleys! What exactly is the width difference between all Korean cars and all foreign cars? Feel free to ignore that question too.
You remind me of the doctor I once saw in Seoul who said that Koreans can't contract HIV because they eat kimchee, or Koreans who insist that you can't put the fan on at night in your room because it'll kill you, or Koreans saying their country is unique because "Korea has four distinct seasons", blah blah blah. But I never heard the "Koreans buy mostly Korean cars because our roads are narrower than all other roads in the world" I do love these tales...
Again, I've debated people who like to say, "you're continually making diversions," or "that's off topic" when the counterargument thrown at them doesn't jibe with their prepared response.
Uh-huh, and that's obviously done wonders for your sense of logic. Seems like my remarks about Korean universities hit a raw nerve. Sorry, but there are reasons why they rank so low and why Koreans will save everything to try to get a real education in some other country. I'll leave you to figure out what some of those reasons might be.
Uh-huh, and that's obviously done wonders for your sense of logic. Seems like my remarks about Korean universities hit a raw nerve. Sorry, but there are reasons why they rank so low and why Koreans will save everything to try to get a real education in some other country. I'll leave you to figure out what some of those reasons might be.
I'm glad you mentioned Korean universities because at last, we agree on one thing, which is, the abysmal state of higher education in Korea. How lamentable. Korea could do so much better by hiring Harvard MBA grads and other grads from the top MBA schools in the US. Yes, they might run the economy to the ground with "innovative" financial instruments like derivatives, credit default swaps, and CDOs every now and then but that's alright. They're smart. The government will bail them out anyway. Those 99 percenters occupying Wall Street can go piss in their pants.
And Harvard Law School should be a model for all Korean law schools. Forget tort reform. Yes, America has the best legal system in the world bar none. It should be a model for every Asian country. You sue me, I sue you. That's the way to do it. You betcha!
HAHAHA, it got even better while I was out. Thanks man. So NOW you're saying that the majority of Koreans live on side streets that are inaccessible by pretty much any foreign vehicle, but are magically accessible by any Korean car!? What happened to all those 20 story apartment buildings and how are furniture deliveries, etc. made, by ox-cart?
But that's not all folks, according to eric475, westerners tend to mostly drive Rolls Royces and Bentleys! What exactly is the width difference between all Korean cars and all foreign cars? Feel free to ignore that question too.
You remind me of the doctor I once saw in Seoul who said that Koreans can't contract HIV because they eat kimchee, or Koreans who insist that you can't put the fan on at night in your room because it'll kill you, or Koreans saying their country is unique because "Korea has four distinct seasons", blah blah blah. But I never heard the "Koreans buy mostly Korean cars because our roads are narrower than all other roads in the world" I do love these tales...
KEEP 'EM COMING, THIS IS GREAT STUFF!
You remind me of Sarah Palin whom I watched doing an interview with Katie Couric.
You can't get a car as big as a Mercedes limo or a Chevy Suburban or a Rolls though quite a few side roads in Seoul. I stand by my statement. I wish you'd just look up the street view on map.daum.net and see for yourself. Is your Google search engine working now?
Uh-huh, and that's obviously done wonders for your sense of logic. Seems like my remarks about Korean universities hit a raw nerve. Sorry, but there are reasons why they rank so low and why Koreans will save everything to try to get a real education in some other country. I'll leave you to figure out what some of those reasons might be.
You say things that are pretty dated. You think an MBA degree from a top US school will get you a good-paying job here or even in America these days? Do you realize how times have changed so fast in just a year or two? And Korea is no slouch in keeping pace with the world.
You say things that are pretty dated. You think an MBA degree from a top US school will get you a good-paying job here or even in America these days? Do you realize how times have changed so fast in just a year or two? And Korea is no slouch in keeping pace with the world.
And an MBA from a Korean university will get you....?
Sorry to shatter your illusions but the rest of the world either doesn't agree (or simply doesn't know enough to care). Here's another "cute" link from some "misinformed source" about Korea and how it "keeps pace with the world" http://www.timeshighereducation.co.u...2/top-400.html It's "dated" too, and that date is 2011-2012. Enjoy.
In a similar and somewhat related vein we can predict that whatever comes out of Apple's R&D labs will continue to be copied by Samsung in the foreseeable future.
And an MBA from a Korean university will get you....?
Sorry to shatter your illusions but the rest of the world either doesn't agree (or simply doesn't know enough to care). Here's another "cute" link from some "misinformed source" about Korea and how it "keeps pace with the world" http://www.timeshighereducation.co.u...2/top-400.html It's "dated" too, and that date is 2011-2012. Enjoy.
In a similar and somewhat related vein we can predict that whatever comes out of Apple's R&D labs will continue to be copied by Samsung in the foreseeable future.
This Wikipedia entry sums up your debating style until now.
"Name calling is a cognitive bias and a technique to promote propaganda..."
In the span of one page, you label me as one of the nationalistic and xenophobic people of South Korea.
I try to point to data that can be found in a simple Google search albeit with some Korean language skills required but you "blatantly" ignore counter evidence. You make no admission that you had wrong facts or interpreted the situation incorrectly.
You can go ahead and make fun of a doctor who said kimchi can protect you from HIV. At least he didn't directly kill someone with that belief. The same can't be said for Bush and his cohorts who "believed" there were WMDs in Iraq. 100,000+ Iraqi civilians died because of that nonexistent threat.
And you also like to cherrypick data to answer a question. I asked you if Germans buy American cars and you pull up a link that shows 1.Volkswagen 2. Mercedes-Benz. 3. BMW/Mini 4. Opel. 5. Audi. So the top five automakers in Germany are German-made cars. What was your answer again? I didn't ask you what the share of total foreign car imports in the German market are either. Do 10% of German consumers buy American-made cars? There. I made it into a simple Yes or No question.
I asked you if you have driven a car in South Korea. Again, you don't answer. So if I were to presume that you have never driven a car in Korea then I find it hard to consider your description of Korean roads credible.
You remind me of the doctor I once saw in Seoul who said that Koreans can't contract HIV because they eat kimchee, or Koreans who insist that you can't put the fan on at night in your room because it'll kill you, or Koreans saying their country is unique because "Korea has four distinct seasons", blah blah blah. But I never heard the "Koreans buy mostly Korean cars because our roads are narrower than all other roads in the world" I do love these tales...
KEEP 'EM COMING, THIS IS GREAT STUFF!
Tom Cruise telling Matt Lauer that anti-depressants can't treat depression is probably "great stuff" according to you. According to you Koreans have to be the dumbest people in the world. Oh, ignore those math level comparisons by country because they don't mean anything when America is number 1.
So how is the K-12 public education system doing in your country (America)? You can ignore this question if it doesn't jibe with your prepared response.
Tom Cruise telling Matt Lauer that anti-depressants can't treat depression is probably "great stuff" according to you. According to you Koreans have to be the dumbest people in the world. Oh, ignore those math level comparisons by country because they don't mean anything when America is number 1.
So how is the K-12 public education system doing in your country (America)? You can ignore this question if it doesn't jibe with your prepared response.
No I don't believe any people are "the dumbest in the world", but I would say that the Korean education system can be accurately assessed as sub-standard and a huge waste of time. I'd never let one of my kids go through it, and despite all the problems in the American system, I would vastly prefer an American education over a Korean one. Here's why.
In the US, high school is often a pathetic joke and we have all the problems with violence and drugs, which in my view often stem from our 'government' not really giving a damn about its own citizens, especially in poorer districts. They let many of our schools literally fall apart at the seams or classify ketchup as a vegetable (thanks, Bush senior ). It's a disgrace actually. But even so many American students who refuse to study will fail or quit and get a job or whatever.
In my view the Korean education system is better in terms of the Korean government putting money into it, of the students themselves respecting the teachers, and in terms of a general absence of drugs and extreme violence in the schools. But unfortunately in terms of education itself, Korea loses to the west big time, primarily because the system itself is a holdover from Confucian times.
Did you ever notice how Koreans never seem to fail high school and all students 'miraculously' pass with all those stellar grades? Well, in general this is because the schools are obsessed with their domestic rankings and are in competition with each other. In Korean terms, it would be a huge loss of face to the school if any of their students failed, so they don't allow even the class idiot to fail and they boost the grades of mediocre students. In addition, it's up to the schools and the Korean education ministries themselves to submit performance levels to those international bodies that conduct the high school international rankings. (Contrast this with the international university rankings which are independently- and peer-assessed.)
Anyway, back to the school stuff. Korean parents are so obsessed with their kids getting into the most prestigious universities (by prestigious I mean prestigious Korean universities like SNU or Postech) that they routinely give envelopes of cash to the teachers to 'look after' their sons or daughters, hence the incredibly high 'pass rates' with all those A's. Many teachers have doubled or tripled their salaries this way. Some Korean students are as good as western students, but in general the Korean schools fixate on rote memory 'learning' and grade inflation, and so do a massive disservice to their students, and their country.
A great tragedy of Korean 'education' is that many Korean high school students waste countless hours in haqwans learning how to memorize a bunch of useless facts any fool could look up in a book in 20 seconds. Independent thought and critical thinking do not rank highly as priorities, which is exactly what Confucianism has stressed in parts of the Far East for centuries. These students regurgitate those same facts for the exams and hopefully get into the Korean university of their choice. Once they do, it's joy and bliss and days of soju, but also, sadly, the END of their education because Korean universities are notorious for being something you simply sail through, even the best ones. It's a given that once you're in, you pretty much graduate even if you do nothing at all. However in western countries true education is thought to BEGIN upon entering university and if you refuse to work your booty off or can't think independently, you'll soon fail or drop out.
It's as simple as that and the international rankings show the end product of both systems. There's not a single Korean university in the top 50. And the very few Korean universities like Postech or Kaist that do crack the top 200 only recently did this after they woke up and started massive recruitment drives for western professors or western-educated Koreans (this was all within the past ten years). That's a good thing for Korea, but the old guard is still mostly calling the shots (e.g. remember American Nobel Laureate Robert Laughlin, fired as the Dean of Kaist for daring to say that most of its Korean-educated professors weren't up to scratch?). But hopefully we'll see more internationalization of those universities because Korea really needs these foreigners to stay competitive.
As for maths and sciences in the real world, do I really have to compare Korea and America? There's simply no competition.
In MATHS they have this thing called a Fields Medal, kinda like the Nobel Prize of mathematics except it's only awarded every four years. Let's see...the US has 12, England 6, Japan and Germany, Finland, Russia (5), France, Australia, Spain, a few others, but I don't see Korea represented there at all. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fields_Medal
In SCIENCE and MEDICINE, let's see, hundreds have been awarded in physics, chemistry, physiology and medicine over the past century, but not a single Korean among them. Whatever happened to that *cough* 'great' Korean K-12 system? Here's the link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...tes_by_country.
So yeah, I guess you could say that in terms of high school 'performance' Korean numbers 'look' great (though not as great as Finland’s, which does have the best K-12 education system in the world,) but in the real world the western countries (especially the US, UK, Germany, France, Italy), Japan, Russia, India and a whole lot of other places simply trounce Korea in math and science. You brought it up and I hope that answers your question.
In SCIENCE and MEDICINE, let's see, hundreds have been awarded in physics, chemistry, physiology and medicine over the past century, but not a single Korean among them. Whatever happened to that 'great' Korean K-12 system? Here's the link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...tes_by_country.
So yeah, I guess you could say that in terms of high school 'performance' Korean numbers 'look' great (though not as great as Finland’s, which does have the best K-12 education system in the world,) but in the real world the western countries (especially the US, UK, Germany, France, Italy), Japan, Russia, India and a whole lot of other places simply trounce Korea in math and science. You brought it up and I hope that answers your question.
I skimmed through the wikipedia page you cited. I noticed that European scientist dominated the list early on and it was only until the 1930s that the U.S. started winning in the sciences. Before that most U.S. winners were awarded token Peace prizes. And I also looked at Japan's Nobel prizes. It took them until the 1980s to win some Nobels that, again, weren't token Peace prizes or Nobels for literature. So South Korea received one token Peace Prize so they're getting there. Give them some time.
But why do Asians have to validate their scientific achievement through an institution that is grossly biased towards the achievements of the West?
There are a billion people living in India and another billion in China but each country only gets a handful of Nobels? Out of 2 billion people only several were worthy of a Nobel Prize. Uh-huh. Great selection process. Disregard a billion here and a billion there and you've got a great pool of candidates for the Nobel Prize. How enriching to global equality.
I skimmed through the wikipedia page you cited. I noticed that European scientist dominated the rankings early on and it was only until the 1940s that the U.S. started winning in the sciences. Before that most U.S. winners were awarded token Peace prizes. And I also looked at Japan's Nobel prizes. It took them until the year 2000 to win some Nobels that, again, weren't token Peace prizes. So South Korea received one token Peace Prize so they're getting there. Give them some time.
A Peace Prize is NOT a Science Nobel or a Fields Medal. Getting there? What's taking you so long?
Your comments about the US and Nobel Prizes are clearly indicative of sleep deprivation (at best) your part. And I would never argue that Europe does not have world-leading science. But here are the US prizes from that same page. Read 'em and weep.
United States Nobel Laureates
Christopher A. Sims, Economics, 2011
Thomas J. Sargent, Economics, 2011
Saul Perlmutter, Physics, 2011
Brian P. Schmidt, Physics, 2011
Adam G. Riess, Physics, 2011
Ralph M. Steinman, born in Canada, Physiology or Medicine, 2011
Bruce Beutler, Physiology or Medicine, 2011
Peter A. Diamond, Economics, 2010
Dale T. Mortensen, Economics, 2010
Richard F. Heck, Chemistry, 2010
Ei-ichi Negishi, born in Japan, Chemistry, 2010
Elinor Ostrom, Economics, 2009
Oliver Eaton Williamson, Economics, 2009
Barack H. Obama, Peace, 2009
Thomas A. Steitz, Chemistry, 2009
Venkatraman Ramakrishnan, born in India, Chemistry, 2009
Willard S. Boyle, born in Canada, Physics, 2009
Charles K. Kao, born in China, Physics, 2009
George E. Smith, Physics, 2009
Elizabeth Blackburn, born in Australia, Physiology or Medicine, 2009
Carol W. Greider, Physiology or Medicine, 2009
Jack W. Szostak, born in United Kingdom, Physiology or Medicine, 2009
Paul Krugman, Economics, 2008
Roger Yonchien Tsien, Chemistry, 2008
Martin Chalfie, Chemistry, 2008
Osamu Shimomura, born in Japan, Chemistry, 2008
Yoichiro Nambu, born in Japan, Physics, 2008
Leonid Hurwicz, born in Russia, Economics, 2007
Eric S. Maskin, Economics, 2007
Roger B. Myerson, Economics, 2007
Al Gore, Peace, 2007
Mario R. Capecchi, born in Italy, Physiology or Medicine, 2007
Oliver Smithies, born in United Kingdom, Physiology or Medicine, 2007
Roger D. Kornberg, Chemistry, 2006
John C. Mather, Physics, 2006
Edmund S. Phelps, Economics, 2006
George F. Smoot, Physics, 2006
Andrew Z. Fire, Physiology or Medicine, 2006
Craig C. Mello, Physiology or Medicine, 2006
Robert Aumann, born in Germany, Economics, 2005
Robert H. Grubbs, Chemistry, 2005
Richard R. Schrock, Chemistry, 2005
Thomas Schelling, Economics, 2005
John L. Hall, Physics, 2005
Roy J. Glauber, Physics, 2005
Irwin Rose, Chemistry, 2004
Edward C. Prescott, Economics, 2004
David J. Gross, Physics, 2004
H. David Politzer, Physics, 2004
Frank Wilczek, Physics, 2004
Richard Axel, Physiology or Medicine, 2004
Linda B. Buck, Physiology or Medicine, 2004
Peter Agre, Chemistry, 2003
Roderick MacKinnon, Chemistry, 2003
Robert F. Engle, Economics, 2003
Anthony J. Leggett, born in United Kingdom, Physics, 2003
Paul C. Lauterbur, Physiology or Medicine, 2003
Alexei A. Abrikosov, born in Russia, Physics, 2003
Daniel Kahneman, born in Israel, Economics, 2002
Vernon L. Smith, Economics, 2002
Jimmy Carter, Peace, 2002
Raymond Davis Jr., Physics, 2002
Riccardo Giacconi, born in Italy, Physics, 2002
Sydney Brenner, born in South Africa, Physiology or Medicine, 2002
H. Robert Horvitz, Physiology or Medicine, 2002
William S. Knowles, Chemistry, 2001
K. Barry Sharpless, Chemistry, 2001
Joseph E. Stiglitz, Economics, 2001
George A. Akerlof, Economics, 2001
A. Michael Spence, Economics, 2001
Eric A. Cornell, Physics, 2001
Carl E. Wieman, Physics, 2001
Leland H. Hartwell, Physiology or Medicine, 2001
Alan Heeger, Chemistry, 2000
Alan MacDiarmid, born in New Zealand, Chemistry, 2000
James J. Heckman, Economics, 2000
Daniel L. McFadden, Economics, 2000
Jack Kilby, Physics, 2000
Paul Greengard, Physiology or Medicine, 2000
Eric R. Kandel, born in Austria, Physiology or Medicine, 2000
Ahmed H. Zewail, born in Egypt, Chemistry, 1999
Günter Blobel, born in then Germany, now Poland, Physiology or Medicine, 1999
Walter Kohn, born in Austria, Chemistry, 1998
Robert B. Laughlin, Physics, 1998
Daniel C. Tsui, born in China, Physics, 1998
Robert F. Furchgott, Physiology or Medicine, 1998
Louis J. Ignarro, Physiology or Medicine, 1998
Ferid Murad, of Albanian heritage, Physiology or Medicine, 1998
Paul D. Boyer, Chemistry, 1997
Robert C. Merton, Economics, 1997
Myron Scholes, born in Canada, Economics, 1997
Jody Williams, Peace, 1997
Steven Chu, Physics, 1997
William D. Phillips, Physics, 1997
Stanley B. Prusiner, Physiology or Medicine, 1997
Richard E. Smalley, Chemistry, 1996
Robert F. Curl Jr., Chemistry, 1996
William Vickrey, born in Canada, Economics, 1996
David M. Lee, Physics, 1996
Douglas D. Osheroff, Physics, 1996
Robert C. Richardson, Physics, 1996
Mario J. Molina, born in Mexico, Chemistry, 1995
F. Sherwood Rowland, Chemistry, 1995
Robert Lucas, Jr., Economics, 1995
Martin L. Perl, Physics, 1995
Frederick Reines, Physics, 1995
Edward B. Lewis, Physiology or Medicine, 1995
Eric F. Wieschaus, Physiology or Medicine, 1995
George Andrew Olah, born in Hungary, Chemistry, 1994
John Charles Harsanyi, born in Hungary, Economics, 1994
John Forbes Nash, Economics, 1994
Clifford G. Shull, Physics, 1994
Alfred G. Gilman, Physiology or Medicine, 1994
Martin Rodbell, Physiology or Medicine, 1994
Kary B. Mullis, Chemistry, 1993
Robert W. Fogel, Economics, 1993
Douglass C. North, Economics, 1993
Toni Morrison, Literature, 1993
Russell A. Hulse, Physics, 1993
Joseph H. Taylor Jr., Physics, 1993
Phillip A. Sharp, Physiology or Medicine, 1993
Rudolph A. Marcus, born in Canada, Chemistry, 1992
Gary S. Becker, Economics, 1992
Edmond H. Fischer, born in China, Physiology or Medicine, 1992
Edwin G. Krebs, Physiology or Medicine, 1992
Elias James Corey, Chemistry, 1990
Merton H. Miller, Economics, 1990
William F. Sharpe, Economics, 1990
Harry M. Markowitz, Economics, 1990
Jerome I. Friedman, Physics, 1990
Henry W. Kendall, Physics, 1990
Joseph E. Murray, Physiology or Medicine, 1990
E. Donnall Thomas, Physiology or Medicine, 1990
Sidney Altman, born in Canada, Chemistry, 1989
Thomas R. Cech, Chemistry, 1989
Hans G. Dehmelt, born in Germany, Physics, 1989
Norman F. Ramsey, Physics, 1989
J. Michael Bishop, Physiology or Medicine, 1989
Harold E. Varmus, Physiology or Medicine, 1989
Leon M. Lederman, Physics, 1988
Melvin Schwartz, Physics, 1988
Jack Steinberger, born in Germany, Physics, 1988
Gertrude B. Elion, Physiology or Medicine, 1988
George H. Hitchings, Physiology or Medicine, 1988
Charles J. Pedersen, born in Korea, Chemistry, 1987
Donald J. Cram, Chemistry, 1987
Robert M. Solow, Economics, 1987
Joseph Brodsky, born in Russia, Literature, 1987
Dudley R. Herschbach, Chemistry, 1986
Yuan T. Lee, born in Taiwan, Chemistry, 1986
James M. Buchanan, Economics, 1986
Elie Wiesel, born in Romania, Peace, 1986
Stanley Cohen, Physiology or Medicine, 1986
Rita Levi-Montalcini, born in Italy, Physiology or Medicine, 1986
Jerome Karle, Chemistry, 1985
Herbert A. Hauptman, Chemistry, 1985
Franco Modigliani, born in Italy, Economics, 1985
Michael S. Brown, Physiology or Medicine, 1985
Joseph L. Goldstein, Physiology or Medicine, 1985
Bruce Merrifield, Chemistry, 1984
Henry Taube, born in Canada, Chemistry, 1983
Gerard Debreu, born in France, Economics, 1983
Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar, born in India, Physics, 1983
William A. Fowler, Physics, 1983
Barbara McClintock, Physiology or Medicine, 1983
George J. Stigler, Economics, 1982
Kenneth G. Wilson, Physics, 1982
Roald Hoffmann, born in then Poland, now Ukraine, Chemistry, 1981
James Tobin, Economics, 1981
Nicolaas Bloembergen, born in the Netherlands, Physics, 1981
Arthur L. Schawlow, Physics, 1981
David H. Hubel, born in Canada, Physiology or Medicine, 1981
Roger W. Sperry, Physiology or Medicine, 1981
Walter Gilbert, Chemistry, 1980
Paul Berg, Chemistry, 1980
Lawrence R. Klein, Economics, 1980
Czesław Miłosz, born in then Russian Empire, now Lithuania, Literature, 1980
James Cronin, Physics, 1980
Val Fitch, Physics, 1980
Baruj Benacerraf, born in Venezuela, Physiology or Medicine, 1980
George D. Snell, Physiology or Medicine, 1980
Herbert C. Brown, Chemistry, 1979
Theodore Schultz, Economics, 1979
Steven Weinberg, Physics, 1979
Sheldon Glashow, Physics, 1979
Allan M. Cormack, born in South Africa, Physiology or Medicine, 1979
Herbert A. Simon, Economics, 1978
Isaac Bashevis Singer, born in then Russian Empire, now Poland, Literature, 1978
Robert Woodrow Wilson, Physics, 1978
Arno Penzias, born in Germany, Physics, 1978
Hamilton O. Smith, Physiology or Medicine, 1978
Daniel Nathans, Physiology or Medicine, 1978
Philip Anderson, Physics, 1977
John H. van Vleck, Physics, 1977
Roger Guillemin, born in France, Physiology or Medicine, 1977
Andrzej W. Schally, born in then Poland, now Lithuania, Physiology or Medicine, 1977
Rosalyn Yalow, Physiology or Medicine, 1977
William Lipscomb, Chemistry, 1976
Milton Friedman, Economics, 1976
Saul Bellow, born in Canada, Literature, 1976
Burton Richter, Physics, 1976
Samuel C. C. Ting, Physics, 1976
Baruch S. Blumberg, Physiology or Medicine, 1976
Daniel Carleton Gajdusek, Physiology or Medicine, 1976
Tjalling C. Koopmans, born in the Netherlands, Economics, 1975
Ben R. Mottelson*, Physics, 1975
James Rainwater, Physics, 1975
David Baltimore, Physiology or Medicine, 1975
Renato Dulbecco, born in Italy, Physiology or Medicine, 1975
Howard Martin Temin, Physiology or Medicine, 1975
Paul J. Flory, Chemistry, 1974
George E. Palade, born in Romania, Physiology or Medicine, 1974
Wassily Leontief, born in Germany, Economics, 1973
Henry Kissinger, born in Germany, Peace, 1973
Ivar Giaever, Norway, Physics, 1973
Christian Anfinsen, Chemistry, 1972
Stanford Moore, Chemistry, 1972
William H. Stein, Chemistry, 1972
Kenneth J. Arrow, Economics, 1972
John Bardeen, Physics 1972
Leon N. Cooper, Physics 1972
Robert Schrieffer, Physics 1972
Gerald Edelman, Physiology or Medicine, 1972
Simon Kuznets, born in then Russia, now Belarus, Economics, 1971
Earl W. Sutherland Jr., Physiology or Medicine, 1971
Paul A. Samuelson, Economics, 1970
Norman Borlaug, Peace, 1970
Julius Axelrod, Physiology or Medicine, 1970
Murray Gell-Mann, Physics, 1969
Max Delbrück, born in Germany, Physiology or Medicine, 1969
Alfred Hershey, Physiology or Medicine, 1969
Salvador Luria, born in Italy, Physiology or Medicine, 1969
Lars Onsager, born in Norway, Chemistry, 1968
Luis Alvarez, Physics, 1968
Robert W. Holley, Physiology or Medicine, 1968
Har Gobind Khorana, born in India, Physiology or Medicine, 1968
Marshall Warren Nirenberg, Physiology or Medicine, 1968
Hans Bethe, born in then Germany, now France, Physics, 1967
Haldan Keffer Hartline, Physiology or Medicine, 1967
George Wald, Physiology or Medicine, 1967
Robert S. Mulliken, Chemistry, 1966
Charles B. Huggins, born in Canada, Physiology or Medicine, 1966
Francis Peyton Rous, Physiology or Medicine, 1966
Robert B. Woodward, Chemistry, 1965
Richard P. Feynman, Physics, 1965
Julian Schwinger, Physics, 1965
Martin Luther King, Jr., Peace, 1964
Charles H. Townes, Physics, 1964
Konrad Bloch, born in then Germany, now Poland, Physiology or Medicine, 1964
Maria Goeppert-Mayer, born in then Germany, now Poland, Physics, 1963
Eugene Wigner, born in Hungary, Physics, 1963
John Steinbeck, Literature, 1962
Linus C. Pauling, Peace, 1962
James D. Watson, Physiology or Medicine, 1962
Melvin Calvin, Chemistry, 1961
Robert Hofstadter, Physics, 1961
Georg von Békésy, born in Hungary, Physiology or Medicine, 1961
Willard F. Libby, Chemistry, 1960
Donald A. Glaser, Physics, 1960
Owen Chamberlain, Physics, 1959
Emilio Segrè, born in Italy, Physics, 1959
Arthur Kornberg, Physiology or Medicine, 1959
Severo Ochoa, born in Spain, Physiology or Medicine, 1959
George Beadle, Physiology or Medicine, 1958
Joshua Lederberg, Physiology or Medicine, 1958
Edward Tatum, Physiology or Medicine, 1958
Chen Ning Yang, born in China, Physics, 1957
Tsung-Dao Lee, born in China, Physics, 1957
William B. Shockley, Physics, 1956
John Bardeen, Physics, 1956
Walter H. Brattain, Physics, 1956
Dickinson W. Richards, Physiology or Medicine, 1956
André F. Cournand, France, Physiology or Medicine, 1956
Vincent du Vigneaud, Chemistry, 1955
Willis E. Lamb, Physics, 1955
Polykarp Kusch, born in Germany, Physics, 1955
Linus C. Pauling, Chemistry, 1954
Ernest Hemingway, Literature, 1954
John F. Enders, Physiology or Medicine, 1954
Frederick C. Robbins, Physiology or Medicine, 1954
Thomas H. Weller, Physiology or Medicine, 1954
George C. Marshall, Peace, 1953
Fritz Lipmann, born in then Germany, now Russia, Physiology or Medicine, 1953
E. M. Purcell, Physics, 1952
Felix Bloch, born in Switzerland, Physics, 1952
Selman A. Waksman, born in then Russian Empire, now Ukraine, Physiology or Medicine, 1952
Edwin M. McMillan, Chemistry, 1951
Glenn Theodore Seaborg, Chemistry, 1951
Ralph J. Bunche, Peace, 1950
Philip S. Hench, Physiology or Medicine, 1950
Edward C. Kendall, Physiology or Medicine, 1950
William Giauque, born in Canada, Chemistry, 1949
William Faulkner, Literature, 1949
T. S. Eliot*, Literature, 1948
American Friends Service Committee (The Quakers), Peace, 1947
Carl Cori, born in Austria, Physiology or Medicine, 1947
Gerty Cori, born in Austria, Physiology or Medicine, 1947
Wendell M. Stanley, Chemistry, 1946
James B. Sumner, Chemistry, 1946
John H. Northrop, Chemistry, 1946
Emily G. Balch, Peace, 1946
John R. Mott, Peace, 1946
Percy W. Bridgman, Physics, 1946
Hermann J. Muller, Physiology or Medicine, 1946
Cordell Hull, Peace, 1945
Isidor Isaac Rabi, born in Austria, Physics, 1944
Joseph Erlanger, Physiology or Medicine, 1944
Herbert S. Gasser, Physiology or Medicine, 1944
Otto Stern, born in then Germany, now Poland, Physics, 1943
Edward A. Doisy, Physiology or Medicine, 1943
Ernest Lawrence, Physics, 1939
Pearl S. Buck, Literature, 1938
Clinton Davisson, Physics, 1937
Eugene O'Neill, Literature, 1936
Carl Anderson, Physics, 1936
Harold C. Urey, Chemistry, 1934
George R. Minot, Physiology or Medicine, 1934
William P. Murphy, Physiology or Medicine, 1934
George H. Whipple, Physiology or Medicine, 1934
Thomas H. Morgan, Physiology or Medicine, 1933
Irving Langmuir, Chemistry, 1932
Jane Addams, Peace, 1931
Nicholas M. Butler, Peace, 1931
Sinclair Lewis, Literature, 1930
Frank B. Kellogg, Peace, 1929
Arthur H. Compton, Physics, 1927
Charles G. Dawes, Peace, 1925
Robert A. Millikan, Physics, 1923
Woodrow Wilson, Peace, 1919
Theodore W. Richards, Chemistry, 1914
Elihu Root, Peace, 1912
Albert A. Michelson, born in then Germany, now Poland, Physics, 1907
No I don't believe any people are "the dumbest in the world", but I would say that the Korean education system can be accurately assessed as sub-standard and a huge waste of time. I'd never let one of my kids go through it, and despite all the problems in the American system, I would vastly prefer an American education over a Korean one.
To each his own.
You're a smart guy (this is a compliment) and you sure did a good analysis of public education in South Korea. But you're takeaway from your overseas experience shows me that you can't tolerate what's different in your culture from another culture. And the South Korean moral system seems to irk you a lot. Yes, South Korea should adopt the American moral system. But some critics in your country say that it's bankrupt.
This may sound self-serving but I don't consider myself as being either South Korean or American. And I like an intellectual debate so try to tone down the shrill chest thumping over Nobel Prize achievement. It's err... Embarrassing.
I asked you if you have driven a car in South Korea. Again, you don't answer. So if I were to presume that you have never driven a car in Korea then I find it hard to consider your description of Korean roads credible.
You're straying but correct on one point, I did not answer about driving a car in Korea. Yes, I have done that, many times.
There's not a single Korean university in the top 50.
I do not take issue with the rankings.
But I do take issue with some American morals applied to higher education in America. Have you heard of "legacies?" Do you know the percentage they make up in Harvard, Yale and the top universities in your country? Can you say with a straight face that this is a merit-based system?
What about the affirmative action program? Just tick the box that says you're a minority. But be careful not to say you're Asian. If you tick Asian, you'll need a perfect score on the SAT.
You're straying but correct on one point, I did not answer about driving a car in Korea. Yes, I have done that, many times.
So you've driven on Korean roads but never encountered a side road (golmokgil)? Now i'm even more baffled at your insistence that Korean roads are wide like they are in America. I've driven on state highways and 16-lane superhighways in LA. And the back roads and side roads. But I've never found it as tight as a golmokgil in Korea. I'm bewildered.
But why do Asians have to validate their scientific achievement through an institution that is grossly biased towards the achievements of the West?
There are a billion people living in India and another billion in China but each country only gets a handful of Nobels? Out of 2 billion people only several were worthy of a Nobel Prize. Uh-huh. Great selection process. Disregard a billion here and a billion there and you've got a great pool of candidates for the Nobel Prize. How enriching to global equality.
HUH??? "Asians" (I think you actually mean "Korea", Asia was a pretty big and varied place the last time I checked) don't have to "validate" anything. Who cares?
Soooo, according to your logic Korea has never won a FIFA World Cup, topped the Olympics medal tables, etc. etc. because "western" organizations like FIFA and the International Olympic Committee have a bias against "Asian" athletes??? I seeee....
With the exception of the Peace Prize (I rate the Literature Nobel highly), the Nobels is what the Nobels is, THE recognition of ground-breaking scientific research. The fact that Koreans themselves recognize this is evident in their fixation on winning one and you can bet the Korean media will go absolutely ape when a Korean finally wins one one of these days.
Some Korean students are as good as western students, but in general the Korean schools fixate on rote memory 'learning' and grade inflation, and so do a massive disservice to their students, and their country.
Maybe rote memory learning has some kind of purpose. Hmm...
Comments
What I'm doing is comparing Korea Now with Most of the Rest of the World Now and seeing a Korea that continues to be hostile to most foreigners who try to do business there and make a return on their investment.
Yes the Japanese are also very protectionist but just because they are doesn't mean Koreans are not. Why the continuous diversions?
When I try to compare Korea to Germany or Japan or the rest of the world you accuse me of making "continous diversions." But when you give examples comparing Korea Now with Most of the Rest of the World Now you're just making a fair and balanced point.
Do you know how to debate? Which news channel do you watch religiously? I think I know.
Again, I've debated people who like to say, "you're continually making diversions," or "that's off topic" when the counterargument thrown at them doesn't jibe with their prepared response.
Even GM Korea (itself a third-owned by the Korea Development Bank) has a market share in Korea of less than 10%, despite having the factories right on the ground.
Did it ever occur to you that GM Korea under GM management could have been been badly mismanaged? Do you truly know the whole story behind their poor performance in Korea? You believe GM has able and talented managers who would never need, god forbid, a U.S. government bailout?
I won't go into too much detail because you have a tendency of discrediting any facts I state if they don't have those cute web links right below them. But GM Korea closed down all their dealerships in Korea. That's right. They shredded the dealership contracts with Koreans and said they would start with a fresh clean slate and recruit new dealers. What a great way to run a business. Slash and burn.
Have you ever driven a car in Seoul? Obviously, you haven't. Try driving through a paved side road (golmokgil) in Gangbuk and even Gangnam for that matter. You'll get into some tight places where you can get jammed all by yourself without any incoming traffic. So you won't see a Mercedes S-Class limousine or a Bentley or a Rolls driving through a side road in Korea. Don't even think about making a P-turn in a Chevy Suburban in Gangbuk. You'll be stuck forever.
HAHAHA, it got even better while I was out. Thanks man. So NOW you're saying that the majority of Koreans live on side streets that are inaccessible by pretty much any foreign vehicle, but are magically accessible by any Korean car!? What happened to all those 20 story apartment buildings and how are furniture deliveries, etc. made, by ox-cart?
But that's not all folks, according to eric475, westerners tend to mostly drive Rolls Royces and Bentleys! What exactly is the width difference between all Korean cars and all foreign cars? Feel free to ignore that question too.
You remind me of the doctor I once saw in Seoul who said that Koreans can't contract HIV because they eat kimchee, or Koreans who insist that you can't put the fan on at night in your room because it'll kill you, or Koreans saying their country is unique because "Korea has four distinct seasons", blah blah blah. But I never heard the "Koreans buy mostly Korean cars because our roads are narrower than all other roads in the world" I do love these tales...
KEEP 'EM COMING, THIS IS GREAT STUFF!
Again, I've debated people who like to say, "you're continually making diversions," or "that's off topic" when the counterargument thrown at them doesn't jibe with their prepared response.
Uh-huh, and that's obviously done wonders for your sense of logic. Seems like my remarks about Korean universities hit a raw nerve. Sorry, but there are reasons why they rank so low and why Koreans will save everything to try to get a real education in some other country. I'll leave you to figure out what some of those reasons might be.
Uh-huh, and that's obviously done wonders for your sense of logic. Seems like my remarks about Korean universities hit a raw nerve. Sorry, but there are reasons why they rank so low and why Koreans will save everything to try to get a real education in some other country. I'll leave you to figure out what some of those reasons might be.
I'm glad you mentioned Korean universities because at last, we agree on one thing, which is, the abysmal state of higher education in Korea. How lamentable. Korea could do so much better by hiring Harvard MBA grads and other grads from the top MBA schools in the US. Yes, they might run the economy to the ground with "innovative" financial instruments like derivatives, credit default swaps, and CDOs every now and then but that's alright. They're smart. The government will bail them out anyway. Those 99 percenters occupying Wall Street can go piss in their pants.
And Harvard Law School should be a model for all Korean law schools. Forget tort reform. Yes, America has the best legal system in the world bar none. It should be a model for every Asian country. You sue me, I sue you. That's the way to do it. You betcha!
HAHAHA, it got even better while I was out. Thanks man. So NOW you're saying that the majority of Koreans live on side streets that are inaccessible by pretty much any foreign vehicle, but are magically accessible by any Korean car!? What happened to all those 20 story apartment buildings and how are furniture deliveries, etc. made, by ox-cart?
But that's not all folks, according to eric475, westerners tend to mostly drive Rolls Royces and Bentleys! What exactly is the width difference between all Korean cars and all foreign cars? Feel free to ignore that question too.
You remind me of the doctor I once saw in Seoul who said that Koreans can't contract HIV because they eat kimchee, or Koreans who insist that you can't put the fan on at night in your room because it'll kill you, or Koreans saying their country is unique because "Korea has four distinct seasons", blah blah blah. But I never heard the "Koreans buy mostly Korean cars because our roads are narrower than all other roads in the world" I do love these tales...
KEEP 'EM COMING, THIS IS GREAT STUFF!
You remind me of Sarah Palin whom I watched doing an interview with Katie Couric.
You can't get a car as big as a Mercedes limo or a Chevy Suburban or a Rolls though quite a few side roads in Seoul. I stand by my statement. I wish you'd just look up the street view on map.daum.net and see for yourself. Is your Google search engine working now?
Uh-huh, and that's obviously done wonders for your sense of logic. Seems like my remarks about Korean universities hit a raw nerve. Sorry, but there are reasons why they rank so low and why Koreans will save everything to try to get a real education in some other country. I'll leave you to figure out what some of those reasons might be.
You say things that are pretty dated. You think an MBA degree from a top US school will get you a good-paying job here or even in America these days? Do you realize how times have changed so fast in just a year or two? And Korea is no slouch in keeping pace with the world.
You say things that are pretty dated. You think an MBA degree from a top US school will get you a good-paying job here or even in America these days? Do you realize how times have changed so fast in just a year or two? And Korea is no slouch in keeping pace with the world.
And an MBA from a Korean university will get you....?
Sorry to shatter your illusions but the rest of the world either doesn't agree (or simply doesn't know enough to care). Here's another "cute" link from some "misinformed source" about Korea and how it "keeps pace with the world" http://www.timeshighereducation.co.u...2/top-400.html It's "dated" too, and that date is 2011-2012. Enjoy.
In a similar and somewhat related vein we can predict that whatever comes out of Apple's R&D labs will continue to be copied by Samsung in the foreseeable future.
And an MBA from a Korean university will get you....?
Sorry to shatter your illusions but the rest of the world either doesn't agree (or simply doesn't know enough to care). Here's another "cute" link from some "misinformed source" about Korea and how it "keeps pace with the world" http://www.timeshighereducation.co.u...2/top-400.html It's "dated" too, and that date is 2011-2012. Enjoy.
In a similar and somewhat related vein we can predict that whatever comes out of Apple's R&D labs will continue to be copied by Samsung in the foreseeable future.
This Wikipedia entry sums up your debating style until now.
"Name calling is a cognitive bias and a technique to promote propaganda..."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Name_calling
In the span of one page, you label me as one of the nationalistic and xenophobic people of South Korea.
I try to point to data that can be found in a simple Google search albeit with some Korean language skills required but you "blatantly" ignore counter evidence. You make no admission that you had wrong facts or interpreted the situation incorrectly.
You can go ahead and make fun of a doctor who said kimchi can protect you from HIV. At least he didn't directly kill someone with that belief. The same can't be said for Bush and his cohorts who "believed" there were WMDs in Iraq. 100,000+ Iraqi civilians died because of that nonexistent threat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_Iraq_War
And you also like to cherrypick data to answer a question. I asked you if Germans buy American cars and you pull up a link that shows 1.Volkswagen 2. Mercedes-Benz. 3. BMW/Mini 4. Opel. 5. Audi. So the top five automakers in Germany are German-made cars. What was your answer again? I didn't ask you what the share of total foreign car imports in the German market are either. Do 10% of German consumers buy American-made cars? There. I made it into a simple Yes or No question.
I asked you if you have driven a car in South Korea. Again, you don't answer. So if I were to presume that you have never driven a car in Korea then I find it hard to consider your description of Korean roads credible.
You remind me of the doctor I once saw in Seoul who said that Koreans can't contract HIV because they eat kimchee, or Koreans who insist that you can't put the fan on at night in your room because it'll kill you, or Koreans saying their country is unique because "Korea has four distinct seasons", blah blah blah. But I never heard the "Koreans buy mostly Korean cars because our roads are narrower than all other roads in the world" I do love these tales...
KEEP 'EM COMING, THIS IS GREAT STUFF!
Tom Cruise telling Matt Lauer that anti-depressants can't treat depression is probably "great stuff" according to you. According to you Koreans have to be the dumbest people in the world. Oh, ignore those math level comparisons by country because they don't mean anything when America is number 1.
I took the liberty of cherrypicking this data.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datab...cience-reading
So how is the K-12 public education system doing in your country (America)? You can ignore this question if it doesn't jibe with your prepared response.
Tom Cruise telling Matt Lauer that anti-depressants can't treat depression is probably "great stuff" according to you. According to you Koreans have to be the dumbest people in the world. Oh, ignore those math level comparisons by country because they don't mean anything when America is number 1.
I took the liberty of cherrypicking this data.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datab...cience-reading
So how is the K-12 public education system doing in your country (America)? You can ignore this question if it doesn't jibe with your prepared response.
No I don't believe any people are "the dumbest in the world", but I would say that the Korean education system can be accurately assessed as sub-standard and a huge waste of time. I'd never
In the US, high school is often a pathetic joke and we have all the problems with violence and drugs, which in my view often stem from our 'government' not really giving a damn about its own citizens, especially in poorer districts. They let many of our schools literally fall apart at the seams or classify ketchup as a vegetable (thanks, Bush senior
In my view the Korean education system is better in terms of the Korean government putting money into it, of the students themselves respecting the teachers, and in terms of a general absence of drugs and extreme violence in the schools. But unfortunately in terms of education itself, Korea loses to the west big time, primarily because the system itself is a holdover from Confucian times.
Did you ever notice how Koreans never seem to fail high school and all students 'miraculously' pass with all those stellar grades? Well, in general this is because the schools are obsessed with their domestic rankings and are in competition with each other. In Korean terms, it would be a huge loss of face to the school if any of their students failed, so they don't allow even the class idiot to fail and they boost the grades of mediocre students. In addition, it's up to the schools and the Korean education ministries themselves to submit performance levels to those international bodies that conduct the high school international rankings. (Contrast this with the international university rankings which are independently- and peer-assessed.)
Anyway, back to the school stuff. Korean parents are so obsessed with their kids getting into the most prestigious universities (by prestigious I mean prestigious Korean universities like SNU or Postech) that they routinely give envelopes of cash to the teachers to 'look after' their sons or daughters, hence the incredibly high 'pass rates' with all those A's. Many teachers have doubled or tripled their salaries this way. Some Korean students are as good as western students, but in general the Korean schools fixate on rote memory 'learning' and grade inflation, and so do a massive disservice to their students, and their country.
A great tragedy of Korean 'education' is that many Korean high school students waste countless hours in haqwans learning how to memorize a bunch of useless facts any fool could look up in a book in 20 seconds. Independent thought and critical thinking do not rank highly as priorities, which is exactly what Confucianism has stressed in parts of the Far East for centuries. These students regurgitate those same facts for the exams and hopefully get into the Korean university of their choice. Once they do, it's joy and bliss and days of soju, but also, sadly, the END of their education because Korean universities are notorious for being something you simply sail through, even the best ones. It's a given that once you're in, you pretty much graduate even if you do nothing at all. However in western countries true education is thought to BEGIN upon entering university and if you refuse to work your booty off or can't think independently, you'll soon fail or drop out.
It's as simple as that and the international rankings show the end product of both systems. There's not a single Korean university in the top 50. And the very few Korean universities like Postech or Kaist that do crack the top 200 only recently did this after they woke up and started massive recruitment drives for western professors or western-educated Koreans (this was all within the past ten years). That's a good thing for Korea, but the old guard is still mostly calling the shots (e.g. remember American Nobel Laureate Robert Laughlin, fired as the Dean of Kaist for daring to say that most of its Korean-educated professors weren't up to scratch?). But hopefully we'll see more internationalization of those universities because Korea really needs these foreigners to stay competitive.
As for maths and sciences in the real world, do I really have to compare Korea and America? There's simply no competition.
In MATHS they have this thing called a Fields Medal, kinda like the Nobel Prize of mathematics except it's only awarded every four years. Let's see...the US has 12, England 6, Japan and Germany, Finland, Russia (5), France, Australia, Spain, a few others, but I don't see Korea represented there at all. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fields_Medal
In SCIENCE and MEDICINE, let's see, hundreds have been awarded in physics, chemistry, physiology and medicine over the past century, but not a single Korean among them. Whatever happened to that *cough* 'great' Korean K-12 system? Here's the link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...tes_by_country.
So yeah, I guess you could say that in terms of high school 'performance' Korean numbers 'look' great (though not as great as Finland’s, which does have the best K-12 education system in the world,) but in the real world the western countries (especially the US, UK, Germany, France, Italy), Japan, Russia, India and a whole lot of other places simply trounce Korea in math and science. You brought it up and I hope that answers your question.
In SCIENCE and MEDICINE, let's see, hundreds have been awarded in physics, chemistry, physiology and medicine over the past century, but not a single Korean among them. Whatever happened to that 'great' Korean K-12 system? Here's the link http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...tes_by_country.
So yeah, I guess you could say that in terms of high school 'performance' Korean numbers 'look' great (though not as great as Finland’s, which does have the best K-12 education system in the world,) but in the real world the western countries (especially the US, UK, Germany, France, Italy), Japan, Russia, India and a whole lot of other places simply trounce Korea in math and science. You brought it up and I hope that answers your question.
I skimmed through the wikipedia page you cited. I noticed that European scientist dominated the list early on and it was only until the 1930s that the U.S. started winning in the sciences. Before that most U.S. winners were awarded token Peace prizes. And I also looked at Japan's Nobel prizes. It took them until the 1980s to win some Nobels that, again, weren't token Peace prizes or Nobels for literature. So South Korea received one token Peace Prize so they're getting there. Give them some time.
But why do Asians have to validate their scientific achievement through an institution that is grossly biased towards the achievements of the West?
There are a billion people living in India and another billion in China but each country only gets a handful of Nobels? Out of 2 billion people only several were worthy of a Nobel Prize. Uh-huh. Great selection process. Disregard a billion here and a billion there and you've got a great pool of candidates for the Nobel Prize. How enriching to global equality.
I skimmed through the wikipedia page you cited. I noticed that European scientist dominated the rankings early on and it was only until the 1940s that the U.S. started winning in the sciences. Before that most U.S. winners were awarded token Peace prizes. And I also looked at Japan's Nobel prizes. It took them until the year 2000 to win some Nobels that, again, weren't token Peace prizes. So South Korea received one token Peace Prize so they're getting there. Give them some time.
A Peace Prize is NOT a Science Nobel or a Fields Medal. Getting there? What's taking you so long?
Your comments about the US and Nobel Prizes are clearly indicative of sleep deprivation (at best) your part. And I would never argue that Europe does not have world-leading science. But here are the US prizes from that same page. Read 'em and weep.
United States Nobel Laureates
Christopher A. Sims, Economics, 2011
Thomas J. Sargent, Economics, 2011
Saul Perlmutter, Physics, 2011
Brian P. Schmidt, Physics, 2011
Adam G. Riess, Physics, 2011
Ralph M. Steinman, born in Canada, Physiology or Medicine, 2011
Bruce Beutler, Physiology or Medicine, 2011
Peter A. Diamond, Economics, 2010
Dale T. Mortensen, Economics, 2010
Richard F. Heck, Chemistry, 2010
Ei-ichi Negishi, born in Japan, Chemistry, 2010
Elinor Ostrom, Economics, 2009
Oliver Eaton Williamson, Economics, 2009
Barack H. Obama, Peace, 2009
Thomas A. Steitz, Chemistry, 2009
Venkatraman Ramakrishnan, born in India, Chemistry, 2009
Willard S. Boyle, born in Canada, Physics, 2009
Charles K. Kao, born in China, Physics, 2009
George E. Smith, Physics, 2009
Elizabeth Blackburn, born in Australia, Physiology or Medicine, 2009
Carol W. Greider, Physiology or Medicine, 2009
Jack W. Szostak, born in United Kingdom, Physiology or Medicine, 2009
Paul Krugman, Economics, 2008
Roger Yonchien Tsien, Chemistry, 2008
Martin Chalfie, Chemistry, 2008
Osamu Shimomura, born in Japan, Chemistry, 2008
Yoichiro Nambu, born in Japan, Physics, 2008
Leonid Hurwicz, born in Russia, Economics, 2007
Eric S. Maskin, Economics, 2007
Roger B. Myerson, Economics, 2007
Al Gore, Peace, 2007
Mario R. Capecchi, born in Italy, Physiology or Medicine, 2007
Oliver Smithies, born in United Kingdom, Physiology or Medicine, 2007
Roger D. Kornberg, Chemistry, 2006
John C. Mather, Physics, 2006
Edmund S. Phelps, Economics, 2006
George F. Smoot, Physics, 2006
Andrew Z. Fire, Physiology or Medicine, 2006
Craig C. Mello, Physiology or Medicine, 2006
Robert Aumann, born in Germany, Economics, 2005
Robert H. Grubbs, Chemistry, 2005
Richard R. Schrock, Chemistry, 2005
Thomas Schelling, Economics, 2005
John L. Hall, Physics, 2005
Roy J. Glauber, Physics, 2005
Irwin Rose, Chemistry, 2004
Edward C. Prescott, Economics, 2004
David J. Gross, Physics, 2004
H. David Politzer, Physics, 2004
Frank Wilczek, Physics, 2004
Richard Axel, Physiology or Medicine, 2004
Linda B. Buck, Physiology or Medicine, 2004
Peter Agre, Chemistry, 2003
Roderick MacKinnon, Chemistry, 2003
Robert F. Engle, Economics, 2003
Anthony J. Leggett, born in United Kingdom, Physics, 2003
Paul C. Lauterbur, Physiology or Medicine, 2003
Alexei A. Abrikosov, born in Russia, Physics, 2003
Daniel Kahneman, born in Israel, Economics, 2002
Vernon L. Smith, Economics, 2002
Jimmy Carter, Peace, 2002
Raymond Davis Jr., Physics, 2002
Riccardo Giacconi, born in Italy, Physics, 2002
Sydney Brenner, born in South Africa, Physiology or Medicine, 2002
H. Robert Horvitz, Physiology or Medicine, 2002
William S. Knowles, Chemistry, 2001
K. Barry Sharpless, Chemistry, 2001
Joseph E. Stiglitz, Economics, 2001
George A. Akerlof, Economics, 2001
A. Michael Spence, Economics, 2001
Eric A. Cornell, Physics, 2001
Carl E. Wieman, Physics, 2001
Leland H. Hartwell, Physiology or Medicine, 2001
Alan Heeger, Chemistry, 2000
Alan MacDiarmid, born in New Zealand, Chemistry, 2000
James J. Heckman, Economics, 2000
Daniel L. McFadden, Economics, 2000
Jack Kilby, Physics, 2000
Paul Greengard, Physiology or Medicine, 2000
Eric R. Kandel, born in Austria, Physiology or Medicine, 2000
Ahmed H. Zewail, born in Egypt, Chemistry, 1999
Günter Blobel, born in then Germany, now Poland, Physiology or Medicine, 1999
Walter Kohn, born in Austria, Chemistry, 1998
Robert B. Laughlin, Physics, 1998
Daniel C. Tsui, born in China, Physics, 1998
Robert F. Furchgott, Physiology or Medicine, 1998
Louis J. Ignarro, Physiology or Medicine, 1998
Ferid Murad, of Albanian heritage, Physiology or Medicine, 1998
Paul D. Boyer, Chemistry, 1997
Robert C. Merton, Economics, 1997
Myron Scholes, born in Canada, Economics, 1997
Jody Williams, Peace, 1997
Steven Chu, Physics, 1997
William D. Phillips, Physics, 1997
Stanley B. Prusiner, Physiology or Medicine, 1997
Richard E. Smalley, Chemistry, 1996
Robert F. Curl Jr., Chemistry, 1996
William Vickrey, born in Canada, Economics, 1996
David M. Lee, Physics, 1996
Douglas D. Osheroff, Physics, 1996
Robert C. Richardson, Physics, 1996
Mario J. Molina, born in Mexico, Chemistry, 1995
F. Sherwood Rowland, Chemistry, 1995
Robert Lucas, Jr., Economics, 1995
Martin L. Perl, Physics, 1995
Frederick Reines, Physics, 1995
Edward B. Lewis, Physiology or Medicine, 1995
Eric F. Wieschaus, Physiology or Medicine, 1995
George Andrew Olah, born in Hungary, Chemistry, 1994
John Charles Harsanyi, born in Hungary, Economics, 1994
John Forbes Nash, Economics, 1994
Clifford G. Shull, Physics, 1994
Alfred G. Gilman, Physiology or Medicine, 1994
Martin Rodbell, Physiology or Medicine, 1994
Kary B. Mullis, Chemistry, 1993
Robert W. Fogel, Economics, 1993
Douglass C. North, Economics, 1993
Toni Morrison, Literature, 1993
Russell A. Hulse, Physics, 1993
Joseph H. Taylor Jr., Physics, 1993
Phillip A. Sharp, Physiology or Medicine, 1993
Rudolph A. Marcus, born in Canada, Chemistry, 1992
Gary S. Becker, Economics, 1992
Edmond H. Fischer, born in China, Physiology or Medicine, 1992
Edwin G. Krebs, Physiology or Medicine, 1992
Elias James Corey, Chemistry, 1990
Merton H. Miller, Economics, 1990
William F. Sharpe, Economics, 1990
Harry M. Markowitz, Economics, 1990
Jerome I. Friedman, Physics, 1990
Henry W. Kendall, Physics, 1990
Joseph E. Murray, Physiology or Medicine, 1990
E. Donnall Thomas, Physiology or Medicine, 1990
Sidney Altman, born in Canada, Chemistry, 1989
Thomas R. Cech, Chemistry, 1989
Hans G. Dehmelt, born in Germany, Physics, 1989
Norman F. Ramsey, Physics, 1989
J. Michael Bishop, Physiology or Medicine, 1989
Harold E. Varmus, Physiology or Medicine, 1989
Leon M. Lederman, Physics, 1988
Melvin Schwartz, Physics, 1988
Jack Steinberger, born in Germany, Physics, 1988
Gertrude B. Elion, Physiology or Medicine, 1988
George H. Hitchings, Physiology or Medicine, 1988
Charles J. Pedersen, born in Korea, Chemistry, 1987
Donald J. Cram, Chemistry, 1987
Robert M. Solow, Economics, 1987
Joseph Brodsky, born in Russia, Literature, 1987
Dudley R. Herschbach, Chemistry, 1986
Yuan T. Lee, born in Taiwan, Chemistry, 1986
James M. Buchanan, Economics, 1986
Elie Wiesel, born in Romania, Peace, 1986
Stanley Cohen, Physiology or Medicine, 1986
Rita Levi-Montalcini, born in Italy, Physiology or Medicine, 1986
Jerome Karle, Chemistry, 1985
Herbert A. Hauptman, Chemistry, 1985
Franco Modigliani, born in Italy, Economics, 1985
Michael S. Brown, Physiology or Medicine, 1985
Joseph L. Goldstein, Physiology or Medicine, 1985
Bruce Merrifield, Chemistry, 1984
Henry Taube, born in Canada, Chemistry, 1983
Gerard Debreu, born in France, Economics, 1983
Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar, born in India, Physics, 1983
William A. Fowler, Physics, 1983
Barbara McClintock, Physiology or Medicine, 1983
George J. Stigler, Economics, 1982
Kenneth G. Wilson, Physics, 1982
Roald Hoffmann, born in then Poland, now Ukraine, Chemistry, 1981
James Tobin, Economics, 1981
Nicolaas Bloembergen, born in the Netherlands, Physics, 1981
Arthur L. Schawlow, Physics, 1981
David H. Hubel, born in Canada, Physiology or Medicine, 1981
Roger W. Sperry, Physiology or Medicine, 1981
Walter Gilbert, Chemistry, 1980
Paul Berg, Chemistry, 1980
Lawrence R. Klein, Economics, 1980
Czesław Miłosz, born in then Russian Empire, now Lithuania, Literature, 1980
James Cronin, Physics, 1980
Val Fitch, Physics, 1980
Baruj Benacerraf, born in Venezuela, Physiology or Medicine, 1980
George D. Snell, Physiology or Medicine, 1980
Herbert C. Brown, Chemistry, 1979
Theodore Schultz, Economics, 1979
Steven Weinberg, Physics, 1979
Sheldon Glashow, Physics, 1979
Allan M. Cormack, born in South Africa, Physiology or Medicine, 1979
Herbert A. Simon, Economics, 1978
Isaac Bashevis Singer, born in then Russian Empire, now Poland, Literature, 1978
Robert Woodrow Wilson, Physics, 1978
Arno Penzias, born in Germany, Physics, 1978
Hamilton O. Smith, Physiology or Medicine, 1978
Daniel Nathans, Physiology or Medicine, 1978
Philip Anderson, Physics, 1977
John H. van Vleck, Physics, 1977
Roger Guillemin, born in France, Physiology or Medicine, 1977
Andrzej W. Schally, born in then Poland, now Lithuania, Physiology or Medicine, 1977
Rosalyn Yalow, Physiology or Medicine, 1977
William Lipscomb, Chemistry, 1976
Milton Friedman, Economics, 1976
Saul Bellow, born in Canada, Literature, 1976
Burton Richter, Physics, 1976
Samuel C. C. Ting, Physics, 1976
Baruch S. Blumberg, Physiology or Medicine, 1976
Daniel Carleton Gajdusek, Physiology or Medicine, 1976
Tjalling C. Koopmans, born in the Netherlands, Economics, 1975
Ben R. Mottelson*, Physics, 1975
James Rainwater, Physics, 1975
David Baltimore, Physiology or Medicine, 1975
Renato Dulbecco, born in Italy, Physiology or Medicine, 1975
Howard Martin Temin, Physiology or Medicine, 1975
Paul J. Flory, Chemistry, 1974
George E. Palade, born in Romania, Physiology or Medicine, 1974
Wassily Leontief, born in Germany, Economics, 1973
Henry Kissinger, born in Germany, Peace, 1973
Ivar Giaever, Norway, Physics, 1973
Christian Anfinsen, Chemistry, 1972
Stanford Moore, Chemistry, 1972
William H. Stein, Chemistry, 1972
Kenneth J. Arrow, Economics, 1972
John Bardeen, Physics 1972
Leon N. Cooper, Physics 1972
Robert Schrieffer, Physics 1972
Gerald Edelman, Physiology or Medicine, 1972
Simon Kuznets, born in then Russia, now Belarus, Economics, 1971
Earl W. Sutherland Jr., Physiology or Medicine, 1971
Paul A. Samuelson, Economics, 1970
Norman Borlaug, Peace, 1970
Julius Axelrod, Physiology or Medicine, 1970
Murray Gell-Mann, Physics, 1969
Max Delbrück, born in Germany, Physiology or Medicine, 1969
Alfred Hershey, Physiology or Medicine, 1969
Salvador Luria, born in Italy, Physiology or Medicine, 1969
Lars Onsager, born in Norway, Chemistry, 1968
Luis Alvarez, Physics, 1968
Robert W. Holley, Physiology or Medicine, 1968
Har Gobind Khorana, born in India, Physiology or Medicine, 1968
Marshall Warren Nirenberg, Physiology or Medicine, 1968
Hans Bethe, born in then Germany, now France, Physics, 1967
Haldan Keffer Hartline, Physiology or Medicine, 1967
George Wald, Physiology or Medicine, 1967
Robert S. Mulliken, Chemistry, 1966
Charles B. Huggins, born in Canada, Physiology or Medicine, 1966
Francis Peyton Rous, Physiology or Medicine, 1966
Robert B. Woodward, Chemistry, 1965
Richard P. Feynman, Physics, 1965
Julian Schwinger, Physics, 1965
Martin Luther King, Jr., Peace, 1964
Charles H. Townes, Physics, 1964
Konrad Bloch, born in then Germany, now Poland, Physiology or Medicine, 1964
Maria Goeppert-Mayer, born in then Germany, now Poland, Physics, 1963
Eugene Wigner, born in Hungary, Physics, 1963
John Steinbeck, Literature, 1962
Linus C. Pauling, Peace, 1962
James D. Watson, Physiology or Medicine, 1962
Melvin Calvin, Chemistry, 1961
Robert Hofstadter, Physics, 1961
Georg von Békésy, born in Hungary, Physiology or Medicine, 1961
Willard F. Libby, Chemistry, 1960
Donald A. Glaser, Physics, 1960
Owen Chamberlain, Physics, 1959
Emilio Segrè, born in Italy, Physics, 1959
Arthur Kornberg, Physiology or Medicine, 1959
Severo Ochoa, born in Spain, Physiology or Medicine, 1959
George Beadle, Physiology or Medicine, 1958
Joshua Lederberg, Physiology or Medicine, 1958
Edward Tatum, Physiology or Medicine, 1958
Chen Ning Yang, born in China, Physics, 1957
Tsung-Dao Lee, born in China, Physics, 1957
William B. Shockley, Physics, 1956
John Bardeen, Physics, 1956
Walter H. Brattain, Physics, 1956
Dickinson W. Richards, Physiology or Medicine, 1956
André F. Cournand, France, Physiology or Medicine, 1956
Vincent du Vigneaud, Chemistry, 1955
Willis E. Lamb, Physics, 1955
Polykarp Kusch, born in Germany, Physics, 1955
Linus C. Pauling, Chemistry, 1954
Ernest Hemingway, Literature, 1954
John F. Enders, Physiology or Medicine, 1954
Frederick C. Robbins, Physiology or Medicine, 1954
Thomas H. Weller, Physiology or Medicine, 1954
George C. Marshall, Peace, 1953
Fritz Lipmann, born in then Germany, now Russia, Physiology or Medicine, 1953
E. M. Purcell, Physics, 1952
Felix Bloch, born in Switzerland, Physics, 1952
Selman A. Waksman, born in then Russian Empire, now Ukraine, Physiology or Medicine, 1952
Edwin M. McMillan, Chemistry, 1951
Glenn Theodore Seaborg, Chemistry, 1951
Ralph J. Bunche, Peace, 1950
Philip S. Hench, Physiology or Medicine, 1950
Edward C. Kendall, Physiology or Medicine, 1950
William Giauque, born in Canada, Chemistry, 1949
William Faulkner, Literature, 1949
T. S. Eliot*, Literature, 1948
American Friends Service Committee (The Quakers), Peace, 1947
Carl Cori, born in Austria, Physiology or Medicine, 1947
Gerty Cori, born in Austria, Physiology or Medicine, 1947
Wendell M. Stanley, Chemistry, 1946
James B. Sumner, Chemistry, 1946
John H. Northrop, Chemistry, 1946
Emily G. Balch, Peace, 1946
John R. Mott, Peace, 1946
Percy W. Bridgman, Physics, 1946
Hermann J. Muller, Physiology or Medicine, 1946
Cordell Hull, Peace, 1945
Isidor Isaac Rabi, born in Austria, Physics, 1944
Joseph Erlanger, Physiology or Medicine, 1944
Herbert S. Gasser, Physiology or Medicine, 1944
Otto Stern, born in then Germany, now Poland, Physics, 1943
Edward A. Doisy, Physiology or Medicine, 1943
Ernest Lawrence, Physics, 1939
Pearl S. Buck, Literature, 1938
Clinton Davisson, Physics, 1937
Eugene O'Neill, Literature, 1936
Carl Anderson, Physics, 1936
Harold C. Urey, Chemistry, 1934
George R. Minot, Physiology or Medicine, 1934
William P. Murphy, Physiology or Medicine, 1934
George H. Whipple, Physiology or Medicine, 1934
Thomas H. Morgan, Physiology or Medicine, 1933
Irving Langmuir, Chemistry, 1932
Jane Addams, Peace, 1931
Nicholas M. Butler, Peace, 1931
Sinclair Lewis, Literature, 1930
Frank B. Kellogg, Peace, 1929
Arthur H. Compton, Physics, 1927
Charles G. Dawes, Peace, 1925
Robert A. Millikan, Physics, 1923
Woodrow Wilson, Peace, 1919
Theodore W. Richards, Chemistry, 1914
Elihu Root, Peace, 1912
Albert A. Michelson, born in then Germany, now Poland, Physics, 1907
Theodore Roosevelt, Peace, 1906
[edit]
No I don't believe any people are "the dumbest in the world", but I would say that the Korean education system can be accurately assessed as sub-standard and a huge waste of time. I'd never
To each his own.
You're a smart guy (this is a compliment) and you sure did a good analysis of public education in South Korea. But you're takeaway from your overseas experience shows me that you can't tolerate what's different in your culture from another culture. And the South Korean moral system seems to irk you a lot. Yes, South Korea should adopt the American moral system. But some critics in your country say that it's bankrupt.
This may sound self-serving but I don't consider myself as being either South Korean or American. And I like an intellectual debate so try to tone down the shrill chest thumping over Nobel Prize achievement. It's err... Embarrassing.
I asked you if you have driven a car in South Korea. Again, you don't answer. So if I were to presume that you have never driven a car in Korea then I find it hard to consider your description of Korean roads credible.
You're straying but correct on one point, I did not answer about driving a car in Korea. Yes, I have done that, many times.
There's not a single Korean university in the top 50.
I do not take issue with the rankings.
But I do take issue with some American morals applied to higher education in America. Have you heard of "legacies?" Do you know the percentage they make up in Harvard, Yale and the top universities in your country? Can you say with a straight face that this is a merit-based system?
http://www.thecrimson.com/article/20...gacy-legacies/
What about the affirmative action program? Just tick the box that says you're a minority. But be careful not to say you're Asian. If you tick Asian, you'll need a perfect score on the SAT.
http://www.usatoday.com/news/educati...ons/51620236/1
One of Yale's legacies made his father proud by becoming a U.S. president. He must have done a real good job.
You're straying but correct on one point, I did not answer about driving a car in Korea. Yes, I have done that, many times.
So you've driven on Korean roads but never encountered a side road (golmokgil)? Now i'm even more baffled at your insistence that Korean roads are wide like they are in America. I've driven on state highways and 16-lane superhighways in LA. And the back roads and side roads. But I've never found it as tight as a golmokgil in Korea. I'm bewildered.
But why do Asians have to validate their scientific achievement through an institution that is grossly biased towards the achievements of the West?
There are a billion people living in India and another billion in China but each country only gets a handful of Nobels? Out of 2 billion people only several were worthy of a Nobel Prize. Uh-huh. Great selection process. Disregard a billion here and a billion there and you've got a great pool of candidates for the Nobel Prize. How enriching to global equality.
HUH???
Soooo, according to your logic Korea has never won a FIFA World Cup, topped the Olympics medal tables, etc. etc. because "western" organizations like FIFA and the International Olympic Committee have a bias against "Asian" athletes??? I seeee....
With the exception of the Peace Prize (I rate the Literature Nobel highly), the Nobels is what the Nobels is, THE recognition of ground-breaking scientific research. The fact that Koreans themselves recognize this is evident in their fixation on winning one and you can bet the Korean media will go absolutely ape when a Korean finally wins one one of these days.
I'm bewildered.
Yes, you are.
Some Korean students are as good as western students, but in general the Korean schools fixate on rote memory 'learning' and grade inflation, and so do a massive disservice to their students, and their country.
Maybe rote memory learning has some kind of purpose. Hmm...
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/20/op...t-matters.html