<strong>That DDR400 must be overclocked DDR333 memory... Kinda like PC150 is just overclocked PC133 memory. IIRC, Micron & the rest of the DDR developers have stated that DDR333 was going to be the end of the line before moving to DDRII.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well in a way it is overclocked PC2700, that is there is no JEDEC standard for a PC3200 module yet. JEDEC is the standards organization that determines the specifications for industry standard memory. They only recently (last week?) ratified the final design for PC2700 modules. And actually Micron and Samsung are the biggest proponents and as of yet the only companies which have stated they will produce and sell DDR I 400MHz memory. The others are waiting for DDR II.
The complication as others have stated is not in getting the silicon to run at 400MHz+ but to interface that silicon with the system. The reason there is almost no performance advantage for PC2700 and DDR400 over PC2100 is because the latency is being increased in order for the signal tolerance necessary for the modules to be certified. Thus while the memory runs faster, it takes more time for the signals to travel, thus rendering the advantage nearly null.
"Considering that PowerMac sales are half what they were in 1999, it is a valid assertion."
No actually it's not a valid assertion, considering all PC sales have been hit incredibly hard since 1999. Since then there's been an industry-wide slowdown as everyone knows. It isn't limited to PowerMacs, or due to the fact that some think they are underpowered.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes, but Apple's market share has been steadily declining both in the professional and consumer markets.
Since Microsoft's marketshare is 90% of the OS market, Apple is dead anyway. But wait a minute, more supply, less demand! Ha M$ is screwed (Like the logic used in this post).
Seriously though, today on Maccentral an apple representative said this WWDC will be the best ever. For me the best was when the G4 was demoed. Maybe the G5 will be demoed at this one?
<strong>Seriously though, today on Maccentral an apple representative said this WWDC will be the best ever. For me the best was when the G4 was demoed. Maybe the G5 will be demoed at this one?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Just like MWSF 2002 was "Beyond the Rumor Sites. Way Beyond."
Well, with 'Ten' they've got the platform now to do some interesting stuff.
Bug fixes aside, it'll be interesting to see where Apple takes the 'Ten' os in terms of pushing the os envelope. I'm looking forward to seeing how the quartz engine can be further explored in the ten interface...and used in apps in general.
I'd love to see the G5 demoed. But maybe it will behind closed doors?
Perhaps for another few years the focus will continue to be developers and 'x'.
It's nice to hear talk of unix, java developers coming to 'our side' in droves.
With graphical parity with pcs in terms of Nvidia cards and open gl adoption in the os...the Mac just needs a good CPU hike to set the platform on fire alongside a suitable motherboard revamp.
After being stuck with the G4 for years now...I can hardly wait for the G5. still, whether a few months or 8 months. I guess it aint that long to wait for the 'ultimate' mac.
With graphical parity with pcs in terms of Nvidia cards and open gl adoption in the os...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Apple may have reached parity in terms of nVidia & ATI hardware, but there are still some capabilities of that hardware which is not exposed to developers yet. They're working on at least some of it, but I wish they were more open to specific extensions like the hardware guys are free to do on the PC. The OpenGL ARB is just too slow to react, I have a hard time believing that they can keep up with DirectX going forward -- they'll always be a few steps behind.
"The OpenGL ARB is just too slow to react, I have a hard time believing that they can keep up with DirectX going forward -- they'll always be a few steps behind."
An interesting point that has given me cause for concern, Programmer.
However, is it me...or is the graphical fidelity of Open Gl streets ahead of Direct X's 'cardboardy cut out' appearance..?
Particularly noticed in Unreal Tourney.
Direct X is aggressive on it's development curve.
But I don't see any games that are doing something Open Gl can't do? Mind you. I don't play that many of the latest games so...
Do Apple sit on the Open Gl development board like they do Firewire, Hypertransport consortiums etc? Maybe they could influence pace of Open Gl development?
<strong>"The OpenGL ARB is just too slow to react, I have a hard time believing that they can keep up with DirectX going forward -- they'll always be a few steps behind."
An interesting point that has given me cause for concern, Programmer.
However, is it me...or is the graphical fidelity of Open Gl streets ahead of Direct X's 'cardboardy cut out' appearance..?
Particularly noticed in Unreal Tourney.
Direct X is aggressive on it's development curve.
But I don't see any games that are doing something Open Gl can't do? Mind you. I don't play that many of the latest games so...
Do Apple sit on the Open Gl development board like they do Firewire, Hypertransport consortiums etc? Maybe they could influence pace of Open Gl development?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
The visual quality of DirectX and OpenGL is essentially the same because they run on the same hardware. Any perceived differences you see will generally be specific driver, application, or art issues.
Apple is on the OpenGL ARB, and they are currently in the process of pushing a couple of new standard extensions through the approval process... but it is taking a heck of a long time. The graphics business is moving really fast, and the ARB has a history of not keeping up.
Now that nVidia & ATI are starting to get some serious market penetration with the advanced cards (geForce3, geForce4, Radeon8500, XBox) you will start seeing more games which take advantage of these features. By the end of this year there will be reasonably priced cards out that'll blow your mind. Apple should be front and center, leading the charge... instead they are still rendering Aqua on the CPU. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
"The visual quality of DirectX and OpenGL is essentially the same because they run on the same hardware. Any perceived differences you see will generally be specific driver, application, or art issues.
Hmmmm.
Apple is on the OpenGL ARB, and they are currently in the process of pushing a couple of new standard extensions through the approval process... but it is taking a heck of a long time. The graphics business is moving really fast, and the ARB has a history of not keeping up.
Here's hoping Apple can don the Steel toe cap enroute to ARB BUTT!
Now that nVidia & ATI are starting to get some serious market penetration with the advanced cards (geForce3, geForce4, Radeon8500, XBox) you will start seeing more games which take advantage of these features. By the end of this year there will be reasonably priced cards out that'll blow your mind. Apple should be front and center, leading the charge... instead they are still rendering Aqua on the CPU. "
Yeah. Inevitable. These features will become standard. It's the first clutch of card that can do the 'features' without showing a crawling framerate. The next range of cards will consolidate that and then some.
Yeesh. Geforce 5 anyone? That's what I hope is going to power my G5 purchase come the end of the year/next year.
Lemon Bon Bon
'Leading the charge'. Yes. I hope so. But their cpus and m/board are behind the curve. Not in front of it. It's been that way for a couple of years now. They're about due something to shake the PC market up. I just hope the G5 is everything the rumours say it is. That with a Nvidia '5' should equal a perfect '10'? (Okay, shoot me now...groan...)
<strong>"C'mon Apple! Demo the G5 in May. I'm ready to show you my money."
Amen, brother.
Lemon Bon Bon</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeah, C'mon apple. we want to replace our suite of 15 G4 400 AGPs. Give us the G5 NOW (and make sure its so fast that everyone thinks its a cruel hoax)
Preview it like they previewed the g4. It's a technology demo to show developers what is in the pipeline and comsumers that the mac platform is going to grow with the rest of the industry. Same reason the preview future releases of OS X.
Comments
<strong>I think Apple has done remarkably well, and MUCH better than most PC makers.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes and if you consider the kind of crapy chips they received from Mot, they are true genius
<strong>That DDR400 must be overclocked DDR333 memory... Kinda like PC150 is just overclocked PC133 memory. IIRC, Micron & the rest of the DDR developers have stated that DDR333 was going to be the end of the line before moving to DDRII.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Well in a way it is overclocked PC2700, that is there is no JEDEC standard for a PC3200 module yet. JEDEC is the standards organization that determines the specifications for industry standard memory. They only recently (last week?) ratified the final design for PC2700 modules. And actually Micron and Samsung are the biggest proponents and as of yet the only companies which have stated they will produce and sell DDR I 400MHz memory. The others are waiting for DDR II.
The complication as others have stated is not in getting the silicon to run at 400MHz+ but to interface that silicon with the system. The reason there is almost no performance advantage for PC2700 and DDR400 over PC2100 is because the latency is being increased in order for the signal tolerance necessary for the modules to be certified. Thus while the memory runs faster, it takes more time for the signals to travel, thus rendering the advantage nearly null.
[ 04-08-2002: Message edited by: Eskimo ]</p>
<strong>Nostradamus writes:
"Considering that PowerMac sales are half what they were in 1999, it is a valid assertion."
No actually it's not a valid assertion, considering all PC sales have been hit incredibly hard since 1999. Since then there's been an industry-wide slowdown as everyone knows. It isn't limited to PowerMacs, or due to the fact that some think they are underpowered.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes, but Apple's market share has been steadily declining both in the professional and consumer markets.
Since Microsoft's marketshare is 90% of the OS market, Apple is dead anyway. But wait a minute, more supply, less demand! Ha M$ is screwed (Like the logic used in this post).
<strong>Seriously though, today on Maccentral an apple representative said this WWDC will be the best ever. For me the best was when the G4 was demoed. Maybe the G5 will be demoed at this one?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Just like MWSF 2002 was "Beyond the Rumor Sites. Way Beyond."
Bug fixes aside, it'll be interesting to see where Apple takes the 'Ten' os in terms of pushing the os envelope. I'm looking forward to seeing how the quartz engine can be further explored in the ten interface...and used in apps in general.
I'd love to see the G5 demoed. But maybe it will behind closed doors?
Perhaps for another few years the focus will continue to be developers and 'x'.
It's nice to hear talk of unix, java developers coming to 'our side' in droves.
With graphical parity with pcs in terms of Nvidia cards and open gl adoption in the os...the Mac just needs a good CPU hike to set the platform on fire alongside a suitable motherboard revamp.
After being stuck with the G4 for years now...I can hardly wait for the G5. still, whether a few months or 8 months. I guess it aint that long to wait for the 'ultimate' mac.
:cool:
Lemon Bon Bon
<strong>
With graphical parity with pcs in terms of Nvidia cards and open gl adoption in the os...</strong><hr></blockquote>
Apple may have reached parity in terms of nVidia & ATI hardware, but there are still some capabilities of that hardware which is not exposed to developers yet. They're working on at least some of it, but I wish they were more open to specific extensions like the hardware guys are free to do on the PC. The OpenGL ARB is just too slow to react, I have a hard time believing that they can keep up with DirectX going forward -- they'll always be a few steps behind.
An interesting point that has given me cause for concern, Programmer.
However, is it me...or is the graphical fidelity of Open Gl streets ahead of Direct X's 'cardboardy cut out' appearance..?
Particularly noticed in Unreal Tourney.
Direct X is aggressive on it's development curve.
But I don't see any games that are doing something Open Gl can't do? Mind you. I don't play that many of the latest games so...
Do Apple sit on the Open Gl development board like they do Firewire, Hypertransport consortiums etc? Maybe they could influence pace of Open Gl development?
Lemon Bon Bon :cool:
<strong>"The OpenGL ARB is just too slow to react, I have a hard time believing that they can keep up with DirectX going forward -- they'll always be a few steps behind."
An interesting point that has given me cause for concern, Programmer.
However, is it me...or is the graphical fidelity of Open Gl streets ahead of Direct X's 'cardboardy cut out' appearance..?
Particularly noticed in Unreal Tourney.
Direct X is aggressive on it's development curve.
But I don't see any games that are doing something Open Gl can't do? Mind you. I don't play that many of the latest games so...
Do Apple sit on the Open Gl development board like they do Firewire, Hypertransport consortiums etc? Maybe they could influence pace of Open Gl development?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
The visual quality of DirectX and OpenGL is essentially the same because they run on the same hardware. Any perceived differences you see will generally be specific driver, application, or art issues.
Apple is on the OpenGL ARB, and they are currently in the process of pushing a couple of new standard extensions through the approval process... but it is taking a heck of a long time. The graphics business is moving really fast, and the ARB has a history of not keeping up.
Now that nVidia & ATI are starting to get some serious market penetration with the advanced cards (geForce3, geForce4, Radeon8500, XBox) you will start seeing more games which take advantage of these features. By the end of this year there will be reasonably priced cards out that'll blow your mind. Apple should be front and center, leading the charge... instead they are still rendering Aqua on the CPU. <img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[No]" />
Hmmmm.
Apple is on the OpenGL ARB, and they are currently in the process of pushing a couple of new standard extensions through the approval process... but it is taking a heck of a long time. The graphics business is moving really fast, and the ARB has a history of not keeping up.
Here's hoping Apple can don the Steel toe cap enroute to ARB BUTT!
Now that nVidia & ATI are starting to get some serious market penetration with the advanced cards (geForce3, geForce4, Radeon8500, XBox) you will start seeing more games which take advantage of these features. By the end of this year there will be reasonably priced cards out that'll blow your mind. Apple should be front and center, leading the charge... instead they are still rendering Aqua on the CPU. "
Yeah. Inevitable. These features will become standard. It's the first clutch of card that can do the 'features' without showing a crawling framerate. The next range of cards will consolidate that and then some.
Yeesh. Geforce 5 anyone? That's what I hope is going to power my G5 purchase come the end of the year/next year.
Lemon Bon Bon
'Leading the charge'. Yes. I hope so. But their cpus and m/board are behind the curve. Not in front of it. It's been that way for a couple of years now. They're about due something to shake the PC market up. I just hope the G5 is everything the rumours say it is. That with a Nvidia '5' should equal a perfect '10'? (Okay, shoot me now...groan...)
Common Dorsal. Spill the beans on performance.
And these cases. Well fancy or not?
Show us the money.
Lemon Bon Bon
And these cases. Well fancy or not?
Show us the money. <hr></blockquote>
C'mon Apple! Demo the G5 in May. I'm ready to show you my money.
<img src="graemlins/hmmm.gif" border="0" alt="[Hmmm]" />
Amen, brother.
Lemon Bon Bon
<strong>"C'mon Apple! Demo the G5 in May. I'm ready to show you my money."
Amen, brother.
Lemon Bon Bon</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeah, C'mon apple. we want to replace our suite of 15 G4 400 AGPs. Give us the G5 NOW (and make sure its so fast that everyone thinks its a cruel hoax)
should just about kill 'em, don't cha think? further away from actual release, more damage done.
<strong>if they demo the g5, what will that do to p/m sales?
should just about kill 'em, don't cha think? further away from actual release, more damage done.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Absolutely. Why would they bother to preview it weren't for sale immediately?