Worker abuse petitions to be delivered Thursday at Apple's Grand Central store

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  • Reply 81 of 160
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DeanSolecki View Post


    Yes. Just as protesting slavery while eating/wearing products produced by slaves would be hypocritical. Clearly the answer is that slavery NEVER SHOULD HAVE BEEN PROTESTED, since it would have meant starvation, right genius?



    To give Apple a "pass" on human rights violations because everyone that is offended by it (read: people possessed of the slightest decency) don't immediately cast off all products produced within the paradigm of capitalism and live wild and free like the wolves is ridiculous.



    If you want to bury your head in the sand and argue that children in China don't deserve our concern on the grounds that they are chinese, fine.



    There are A LOT of people who don't view the world through the nationalistic, ethnocentric, and xenophobic filters that color your meagre moral canvas.



    Passing an imaginary national border, to those of us not steeped in the ideologies of a half-witted tribalist dogma, is not at all tantamount to entering into a realm of psuedo-existence where ethical judgments are put on standby until the goods are safely transported back to "reality." As far as I am concerned Alabama and Hong Kong are equally incomprehensible, but the fact that I can't place myself in those contexts doesn't by any means make me eager to apply toto caelo opposed ethical standards to the existence of "Unknown Humans X" and "Unknown Humans Y."



    This thread is, by and large, an exhibition of the perverse and pathetic lowliness of the standard 150-200 lbs sack of American refuse. Still, despite your profound unloveliness, I would still contend that you should be given a chance to express your existence with dignity and freedom; whether you choose to do so is another matter.



    Boy you are really spewing the diatribe you have been indoctrinated with. This line really cracks me up.... "an exhibition of the perverse and pathetic lowliness of the standard 150-200 lbs sack of American refuse". So I guess that means you weigh either less than 150lbs or more than 200lbs.



    If you feel so strongly, you should sell all your Apple products, and all your other worldly goods, and move to China and help all those Chinese workers.
  • Reply 82 of 160
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 8,654member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by joebloggs View Post


    While I also think that these protesters are misguided and ignorant, your post is really scary. You don't seem to be able to make up your mind whether they're liberals or fascists or nazis (concepts that are mutually exclusive). And your propensity to insult and threaten physical force against people who have different viewpoints to your own seems to indicate that maybe you are the Nazi?



    It's not threatening physical force, it's called self defense. Leftist protesters are very violent and there is more than ample evidence of that. I see what the Occupy Wall Street crowd is like since they've infected my city, so I have first hand knowledge of what these people are like and I was merely pointing out that I do not take kindly to any protesters obstructing my freedom of movement or blocking my access to any place.
  • Reply 83 of 160
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 8,654member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by GQB View Post


    So Apple unilaterally pull out, HP et al stay in, and Apple goes out of business.

    No one has been helped, and way more hurt.



    Brilliant.



    Maybe Foxconn should shut down and let a million Chinese people starve. I bet that would make those protesters happy.
  • Reply 84 of 160
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by msimpson View Post


    Boy you are really spewing the diatribe you have been indoctrinated with. This line really cracks me up.... "an exhibition of the perverse and pathetic lowliness of the standard 150-200 lbs sack of American refuse". So I guess that means you weigh either less than 150lbs or more than 200lbs.



    If you feel so strongly, you should sell all your Apple products, and all your other worldly goods, and move to China and help all those Chinese workers.



    Perhaps the failing American economy is a result of a populace that thinks prescriptions such as this count for pragmatism. Presumably you'd suggest to vegans that the best way to prevent animal abuses is to be made into a hamburger? I suppose if I oppose spousal and child abuse I should get punched in the face by a coward?



    Yes, I see how all of those scenarios are infinitely improved by your strategy.



    Where regards my weight, I am hovering right at the border of 200 lbs, hopefully on the lighter side but more often than not on the heavier, so I'd watch what you say, tough guy.
  • Reply 85 of 160
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 8,654member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DeanSolecki View Post


    Presumably you'd suggest to vegans that the best way to prevent animal abuses is to be made into a hamburger?



    I would suggest that vegans do not continue to eat meat while they supposedly protest against hamburgers, which is pretty much what these so-called Apple protesters are doing.
  • Reply 86 of 160
    boredumbboredumb Posts: 1,415member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


    THEN SHUT UP, HYPOCRITES.



    Sorry, they can't be "HYPOCRITES"...



    You have to know what you are talking about in the first place, to be one...
  • Reply 87 of 160
    jragostajragosta Posts: 10,473member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by schmrtzzz View Post


    This discussion is embarrasing. Even if Apple is doing not so bad, it always can do better. And as one of the world's biggest companies (in shareholders value) it should. Especially with all that money in the bank. And everyone loving Apple should be supporting initiatives like this.



    Sure. Apple can do better. That's why they audit their suppliers. That's why they punish suppliers who don't meet their standards. That's why, in general, Apple is the only electronics company that is working to improve conditions in China.



    So why is Apple the only one being criticized? By any rational standard, all these people should be signing petitions PRAISING Apple for leading the way to improving conditions.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by iaeen View Post


    I think we are talking about a double standard. I'm not sure what you would name a person who holds a double standard though...



    Fandroid.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by kaeth View Post


    Without getting into a ridiculously long discussion about the state of the chinese workforce and the laws that govern it...I think its generally accepted that the Foxconn factory has some pretty shady a$$ practices, at least by western standards, and western companies should be holding themselves to a higher standard.



    It has one of the best reputations in China - which is the standard they are measured by. You can't measure them by western standards any more than you can reasonably petition Walmart and complain that they have a 40 hour work week and 2 weeks vacation while if the employees were in France, they'd have a 34 hour work week and 6 weeks vacation. Why is it OK to expect China to meet U.S. standards, but not to expect U.S. companies to meet French standards?



    OTOH, Foxconn provides free housing and meals for their employees which U.S. companies usually don't do. So why aren't you picketing U.S. companies for not meeting Foxconn standards?



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post


    Maybe Foxconn should shut down and let a million Chinese people starve. I bet that would make those protesters happy.



    That's the crux of the issue. The people working there are happy to have a job - especially since it's one of the best entry level jobs in China.
  • Reply 88 of 160
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post


    I would suggest that vegans do not continue to eat meat while they supposedly protest against hamburgers, which is pretty much what these so-called Apple protesters are doing.



    Not eating meat is a poor method of ensuring the well-being of animals, although you could perhaps claim moral impunity on the subject (an internal victory, to be sure, and being as I've just stated I'm over 200 lbs, you may hypothesize that it isn't a victory which I can claim.)



    Again, it wasn't a cotton boycott that ended slavery in the US. It is foolish to suggest anything of the sort. You can push the issue aside with any manner of illogical moral masturbation, but why bother? You can even more easily remain content with the thought that the powers that tend the status quo are overwhelmingly indifferent to the plight of the lower class, where ever they are, and whatever language they speak. Victory for the good guys, eh pal?



    The humanist response, seemingly, would be to demand American businesses not engage in activities that would be considered unethical if they were conducted in the United States. A fairly low threshold, actually. Maybe such a thing could be hoped for, but I'm not holding my breath.
  • Reply 89 of 160
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DeanSolecki View Post


    Perhaps the failing American economy is a result of a populace that thinks prescriptions such as this count for pragmatism. Presumably you'd suggest to vegans that the best way to prevent animal abuses is to be made into a hamburger? I suppose if I oppose spousal and child abuse I should get punched in the face by a coward?



    Yes, I see how all of those scenarios are infinitely improved by your strategy.



    Where regards my weight, I am hovering right at the border of 200 lbs, hopefully on the lighter side but more often than not on the heavier, so I'd watch what you say, tough guy.



    Your arguments and analogies are total nonsense. A punch in the face? A hamburger?



    Better analogies might be... if a child abuser protests against child abuse, are they a hypocrite? If a meat eater protests against animal abuse, are they a hypocrite? If a person who uses products made in China protests against the working conditions in China, are they a hypocrite?



    And I am a 90 lb Chinese worker.
  • Reply 90 of 160
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Slurpy View Post


    You think Apple will look at a petition like this and think OH GEE WE NEVER THOUGHT ABOUT THIS CHINA THING MAYBE WE SHOULD LOOK INTO IT..



    Well, actually, I think they will. I signed the petition for 'green apple' a few years ago, and wow, did they listen. I like my Apple products but I'll like them even better if the company takes the lead in fair laborconditions. Question: what does it harm you to sign it?
  • Reply 91 of 160
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


    Yeah, I didn't think so either. So what's the word for this situation? It's really close to hypocrisy...



    Double Standard.
  • Reply 92 of 160
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AppleInsider View Post


    An activist group plans to hold demonstrations at Apple retail stores around the world Thursday, with a main gathering held at Apple's Grand Central Terminal location, to highlight claims of worker abuse by the iPhone maker's overseas component suppliers.



    These people need to be reasoned with, not physically attacked, as some on this thread have encouraged. They've been misguided by a rash of media pieces long on emotions and short on facts. And the last thing Apple needs is a physical confrontation in proximity to its retail stores.



    Educate them that Apple is only playing by the rules, or lack thereof, that we as a country permit, and even then they do more to protect workers rights and environmental stewardship than their competitors. Educate them that, if you don't like the rules, then work to vote people in who will change them across the board. Educate them that, at the very least, they should go picket Apple's competitors until they rise to Apple's level of involvement in these matters.
  • Reply 93 of 160
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by schmrtzzz View Post


    Well, actually, I think they will.



    He's making the point that they've known about the situation for a decade and have been improving it since then. The nonsense that has cropped up since the last quarterly earnings report is just that–nonsense.



    Quote:

    Question: what does it harm you to sign it?



    Makes me look like an idiot. Apple has been doing more work over there than virtually any other company already and still they whine at Apple and ONLY Apple about making things better.
  • Reply 94 of 160
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by msimpson View Post


    Your arguments and analogies are total nonsense. A punch in the face? A hamburger?



    Better analogies might be... if a child abuser protests against child abuse, are they a hypocrite? If a meat eater protests against animal abuse, are they a hypocrite? If a person who uses products made in China protests against the working conditions in China, are they a hypocrite?



    And I am a 90 lb Chinese worker.



    You seem to be confused.



    If the people protesting Apple owned technology companies that exploited cheap chinese labor to keep their profit margins high then they would be hypocrites.



    Again, protesting slavery, while wearing a shirt that was made with cotton that was picked by a slave, was an effective means for ending slavery, and I doubt anyone would call it "hypocritical" in retrospect. Or maybe you would? Having the expectation of any person with the slightest moral inclination that they abstain from all things that were composed through unethical practices would be to ask for the end of human progress, or again, living wild and free with the wolves... and by wolves I don't mean Americans, as easy as they are to confuse... I mean real wolves. Undoubtedly, those who reap the most reward for the exploitation of millions might want to keep things as they are, but many others think human dignity should be preserved and encouraged.



    Different strokes, I guess.
  • Reply 95 of 160
    solipsismxsolipsismx Posts: 19,566member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by schmrtzzz View Post


    Well, actually, I think they will. I signed the petition for 'green apple' a few years ago, and wow, did they listen. I like my Apple products but I'll like them even better if the company takes the lead in fair laborconditions. Question: what does it harm you to sign it?



    1) The harm for me is personal. It violates my principles to sign this petition.



    2) Post hoc, ergo propter hoc on thinking you signing a petition a few years ago led Apple's continued (not start of) green initiative.
  • Reply 96 of 160
    nhtnht Posts: 4,460member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by kaeth View Post


    maybe i misunderstood you, you responded to me and i thought you were saying that if you used ANY product from china you were supporting companies like foxconn.



    What? You mean by having above average worker conditions? Mainland chinese workers don't like foxconn because the chinese from Taiwan are bossy and arrogant. Not because Foxconn is paying below average rates or have horrid working conditions compared the national average.



    If they were there wouldn't be lines of folks trying to apply for jobs in their new plants. Some from other Foxconn factories to be a little closer to their home province.
  • Reply 97 of 160
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Apple ][ View Post


    It's not threatening physical force, it's called self defense. Leftist protesters are very violent and there is more than ample evidence of that. I see what the Occupy Wall Street crowd is like since they've infected my city, so I have first hand knowledge of what these people are like and I was merely pointing out that I do not take kindly to any protesters obstructing my freedom of movement or blocking my access to any place.



    Sorry - I obviously misinterpreted your statement that "If I happen to be near any Apple store (I'm not that far away from Grand Central) and there are some douchebags trying to disrupt access or trying to interfere with my business and restrict my freedom of movement, then I will not hesitate to use physical force to put these protest nazis in their place." I suspect the law does not treat someone blocking your access to a shop the same as someone attacking you - when you would be justified in using self defense. It seems Americans pride themselves on, and defend, their right to protest, except when they don't agree with the protesters. Then they want to use violence against them.
  • Reply 98 of 160
    nhtnht Posts: 4,460member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Realistic View Post


    What a bunch of idiots. Demonstrating at locations of the one company that has, is trying and has committed to making things better for the workers who assemble Apple' products.



    Worked for Greenpeace.
  • Reply 99 of 160
    freerangefreerange Posts: 1,587member
    Mark Shields is an ignorant twit who has no clue what he is doing! His claim: "At Foxconn, one of Apple?s biggest manufacturers, there is a history of suicides, abusive working conditions, and almost no pay. These working conditions are appalling, especially for Apple."



    This is a production facility, not a resort! The reality is, when you actually look at the facts, that the suicide rate for high school students in the US is higher than at this facility which employees over 400,00 workers. Where is the petition to improve our education system Mark? And as to "almost no pay" - that is total BS! Foxconn pays better than prevailing wages for factory workers in China. This guy is a misguided moron! This whole misguided and misleading effort is fueled by profiteers and opportunists like Mike Daisey - the tickets to his show based on Apple are $75 - $85! Mike, why don't you send that money to China to help the poor innocent workers instead of just exploiting them? Oh, that's right. Because they are already saving money on their own PLUS sending money home to their poor rural families to help lift them out of poverty.
  • Reply 100 of 160
    freerangefreerange Posts: 1,587member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by tbsteph View Post


    Welcome to the "agenda" of the liberal/progressive/OWS crowd. If these groups ever takeover - I can hardly wait for the anarchy or Big Brother) society they will produce.



    Put a sock in it! I'm a liberal progressive that argues everyday against the suppressives of the repuglican and tea parties but still knows that the arguments and supposed "facts" that these moron protesters use are BS...
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