Worker abuse petitions to be delivered Thursday at Apple's Grand Central store

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  • Reply 121 of 160
    sennensennen Posts: 1,465member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by astrubhar View Post


    I can't believe people are saying "well everyone does it so lets just ignore the problem".



    No one is saying that.
  • Reply 122 of 160
    hill60hill60 Posts: 6,989member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by astrubhar View Post


    These posts are ridiculous. I can't believe people are saying "well everyone does it so lets just ignore the problem". Apple is sitting on a pile of cash. Stock prices are affected mostly by revenue and growth. There is no reason they can't give all their overseas workers a raise. It would significantly improve their lives and cost Apple almost nothing. This protest is simply saying Apple can do better and it should think different and show other companies how to do things. It's easy to sit in your home, with air conditioning, food in the fridge, TV and internet on demand and ignore the fact that most people don't have these luxuries. You have absolutely no idea what it's like to be these people. Your careless attitudes are embarrassing.



    Apple already does and has been for quite some time, as a matter of fact it was their reports which brought these issues to light in the first place.



    Apple goes even further than the dumbasses with their stupid petition, they go deeper in to their supply chain, they look into the companies that supply Foxconn with the parts used to manufacture Apple products.



    Something these idiots seeking a moment in the spotlight seem to have overlooked in their ludicrous campaign.



    Which, if you want that information is voluntarily and publicly available on Apple's website.
  • Reply 123 of 160
    addaboxaddabox Posts: 12,660member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by astrubhar View Post


    These posts are ridiculous. I can't believe people are saying "well everyone does it so lets just ignore the problem". Apple is sitting on a pile of cash. Stock prices are affected mostly by revenue and growth. There is no reason they can't give all their overseas workers a raise. It would significantly improve their lives and cost Apple almost nothing. This protest is simply saying Apple can do better and it should think different and show other companies how to do things. It's easy to sit in your home, with air conditioning, food in the fridge, TV and internet on demand and ignore the fact that most people don't have these luxuries. You have absolutely no idea what it's like to be these people. Your careless attitudes are embarrassing.



    Making working conditions in China into Apple's problem not only misses the point, it encourages the worst kind of limited thinking around what is in fact an almost intractable problem.



    What if Apple gave "their" (Foxconn's) workers a raise? Since Foxconn assembles products for a slew of other CE manufacturers, would Apple need to foot the bill for those products as well? Should there be some kind of test for who has to pony up for better-than-prevailing wages, depending on how much cash on hand they have?



    And even if they did that, we're talking about the merest sliver the Chinese labor force. Once Apple "did the right thing", do the people taking Apple to task sit back and bask in the knowledge that they changed the world?



    "Everybody else does it", in this case, is extremely significant, since the West is absolutely addicted to cheap Chinese goods, and those goods are cheap because of relatively low wages. If every manufacturer outsourcing manufacturing to China were to do the altruistic thing and arrange to have those worker's pay and benefits increased (and how much is enough? Does their housing need to subsidized by these firms as well, since living conditions are quite poor compared to the West?), prices on a huge swath of consumer goods would rise abruptly. It would have a huge impact on our economy, probably reigniting a drop into recession if not full blown depression.



    Are you prepared to argue for that? Because if you're not, your basically saying "Apple has a lot of money so they should just fix their tiny corner of the problem and that'll satisfy me." That's not being serious about Chinese working conditions, that's just passing the buck. It's like demanding that a wealthy philanthropist fund a soup kitchen without ever having a word to say about the economic conditions that make such institutions necessary, or exploring options to bring that necessity to an end.



    Myself, I'd like to see a systematic, industry wide response to Chinese working conditions, but I'm not optimistic that the tech tail can wag that dog. China is a great big autonomous country with its own history, politics and prevailing notions of what's fair. Acting as if it falls to the West to provide solace and guidance for their poor benighted citizenry smacks of same "White Man's Burden" thinking that has caused so much suffering around the globe.



    OTOH, demand for workers will drive wages up, and if they get high enough to warrant it, manufacturers will shift production to the next corner of the globe with enough hungry people to work for peanuts.



    It's called global capitalism. I'm not a huge fan, but I'm not naive enough to think that Apple somehow calls the shots.
  • Reply 124 of 160
    slurpyslurpy Posts: 5,144member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by astrubhar View Post


    These posts are ridiculous. I can't believe people are saying "well everyone does it so lets just ignore the problem". Apple is sitting on a pile of cash. Stock prices are affected mostly by revenue and growth. There is no reason they can't give all their overseas workers a raise. It would significantly improve their lives and cost Apple almost nothing. This protest is simply saying Apple can do better and it should think different and show other companies how to do things. It's easy to sit in your home, with air conditioning, food in the fridge, TV and internet on demand and ignore the fact that most people don't have these luxuries. You have absolutely no idea what it's like to be these people. Your careless attitudes are embarrassing.



    A good example of stupidity and ignorance. Not a single person in this thread, or any thread about the topic I've seen, has suggested 'everyone is doing it, so lets ignore the problem'. It's a strawman argument you're erecting. If you don't know what that is, it's a fictional, imaginary argument you've come up with that you can pretend to argue against. They're saying there's a problem, but it's a problem of global economic dynamics, and not one Apple has the power to address in a meaningful way, more than they've done. Apple can go ahead and empty their entirety of cash reserves in an attempt to change it, and even liquify themselves as a company and throw their entire networth of value at the problem. And if you think that amount of money will even change anything, you'd be wrong. Then you go ahead and say this:



    Quote:

    There is no reason they can't give all their overseas workers a raise. It would significantly improve their lives and cost Apple almost nothing.



    See, that statement suggests you're clueless, and grotesquely so. Apple can't give anyone at Foxconn a raise. THEY'RE NOT APPLE'S EMPLOYEES. Is that a concept so difficult to understand? You apparently don't know this. You're the perfect example of a person with such a supercial, false understanding of even of the fundamentals of the situation, yet you're chastising others for 'not caring' and outraged about things you completely misunderstand. As far as sitting at an airconditioned home, etc, you're doing exactly the same thing as everyone else, yet you're taking a shortcut to making yourself feel good by pretending to 'stand up' for something you're so confused about.



    You're right, people in this thread have no idea whats it's like to be these Chinese workers. Neither do you. But Chinese people do. And they're lining up in the thousands to work at Foxconn. Foxconn already has the highest manufacturing wages in the region. Can you please explain to me, specifically, how Apple, as a client, can force Foxconn to do things like significantly increase wages even further- when none of Foxconn's competitors are doing that, and while Foxconn has a SHITLOAD of other clients, including a dozen billion dollar corporations? I'm assuming you're referring to wages, as of course you can't be bothered to be specific in anything. Explain that to me in detail, instead of spouting more feel-good garbage like 'Apple can do better', which is a vague, intellectually lazy statement that shows you don't want to think about the issue for more than a few seconds. Nothing in my post is me defending Apple- but attacking blatant ignorance (like you display) which doesn't bring us closer to solving anything, but drags us backwards and makes everyone muddle the issue. While you're answering my questions, answer those that addabox posed, and try to learn from his (great) post.
  • Reply 125 of 160
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 8,650member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by astrubhar View Post


    These posts are ridiculous. I can't believe people are saying "well everyone does it so lets just ignore the problem". Apple is sitting on a pile of cash. Stock prices are affected mostly by revenue and growth. There is no reason they can't give all their overseas workers a raise. It would significantly improve their lives and cost Apple almost nothing. This protest is simply saying Apple can do better and it should think different and show other companies how to do things. It's easy to sit in your home, with air conditioning, food in the fridge, TV and internet on demand and ignore the fact that most people don't have these luxuries. You have absolutely no idea what it's like to be these people. Your careless attitudes are embarrassing.



    Maybe you can't believe it because nobody is saying any such thing like "well everyone does it so lets just ignore the problem". I am saying that there is no significant problem. This is just a bunch of hyperbolic whiny protesters who are whining about some problem that doesn't exist and they're even lying about it, trying to create a fake outrage in order to fool other gullible people.



    And it's not up to Apple to give those people raises, because in case you didn't realize it, they are not Apple employees and they do not work for Apple. Apple doesn't owe them shit. And their wages are in line or better than average wages for where they are.



    177 African kids probably just died from starvation while I was typing my post. I'm pretty sure that they have it worse than some Chinese workers who actually have jobs and are getting paid a decent wage. Why don't the ridiculous protesters go and show their huge outrage over that instead of making themselves look like hypocritical, ignorant fools?
  • Reply 126 of 160
    gtrgtr Posts: 3,231member
    All these posts and not a single mention that, Samsung's country of origin, has the second highest suicide rate in the world.



    While we're all intent on cleaning up America's largest financier, maybe we should also send the troops into South Korea?



    Anybody know if they've got any oil or WMD's?
  • Reply 127 of 160
    Look Apple, HP, Dell and every other electronics company are the new slave owners in the world and the Chinese are the new slaves. this story is as old as time. The south still has not gotten over the fact they have pay people to pick cotton.



    What no one cares to talk about is how did China lure away all the manufacturing from the US. Remember when all apple computers were made in the US until 2001. When Dell and HP moved their manufacturing to China and started this race to the bottom of finding cheap labor. The chinese government gives so much to companies like FoxCon that why are practically government owned. US companies can't compete with that. If the US would start investing in infrastructure in the country we could see a return to manufacturing here and even Apple says its not the cheap labor that they want its the resources. In China if you need a special gasket its right around the corner from another factory that can ramp up to meet your demands in a few days. We do not provide that kind of food chain anymore. Giving companies tax breaks is not the answer, government involvement will fix it but we are paralyzed here with fear from listening too so much BS about how bad government is. sigh
  • Reply 128 of 160
    sennensennen Posts: 1,465member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sternapples53 View Post


    Look Apple, HP, Dell and every other electronics company are the new slave owners in the world and the Chinese are the new slaves.



    The Chinese won't let themselves be slaves to anyone but themselves.



    Quote:

    The chinese government gives so much to companies like FoxCon that why are practically government owned.



    FoxConn is a Taiwanese company. It is more likely that FoxConn is paying money to the Chinese Government, or at least certain members of it.
  • Reply 129 of 160
    FFS what about the other companies?



    Hey protestors ~ in Malaysia if you work retail you do 14-hour shifts for up to five or even six days in a row. No overtime is mandatory to be paid for anyone earning above a paltry ~$750 USD a month or something like that. Even office workers (read: "white-collar" jobs) do up to 10 hour days six days in a row, sometimes more. No overtime payable for public holidays, Sundays, any day for "white-collar" workers earning above ~$750 USD a month. No minimum wage in Malaysia. Bosses calling workers all time of the day and night for all kinds of things. Late commissions and incentives not paid. Outright fraud of superannuation/401(K) in many instances. Rampant government corruption. Extremely low wages compared to rising costs of living.



    And the coup de grace: Instutionalised racism against non-ethnic-Malay-Muslims.



    Please come to Malaysia and protest. Seriously, we also need you in Malaysia. Stop wasting time in the US.



    Thank you.



    PS. There is child labour like the kid working at their parents' food stall but that kid's family probably earns more than regular "white-collar" workers.
  • Reply 130 of 160
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by GTR View Post


    While we're all intent on cleaning up America's largest financier, maybe we should also send the troops into South Korea?



    Anybody know if they've got any oil or WMD's?



    Well, they tried in the 50's. Didn't work out so well.



    North Korea has WMD's or so I'm sure we'll be led to believe when the US nukes them. Then South Korea will spearhead the "rebuilding" in conjunction with Halliburton et al.
  • Reply 131 of 160
    This is the best thread ever.
  • Reply 132 of 160
    gtrgtr Posts: 3,231member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by nvidia2008 View Post


    Well, they tried in the 50's. Didn't work out so well.



    North Korea has WMD's or so I'm sure we'll be led to believe when the US nukes them. Then South Korea will spearhead the "rebuilding" in conjunction with Halliburton et al.



    That's near enough for me!



    Send in the boys!
  • Reply 133 of 160
    I am glad that Apple is at least responding to it and trying to correct what they can, but they are working not only with a place they don't own, but a government that is not like ours. Although I'm sure there would be some to disagree. People also need to remember that it is not just Apple they do buisness through. If you want to protest, protest the injustices we have here and internationally. Hunger, famine, homelessness, people who need medical help and the list goes on. So for those who think that it's just up to Apple only to change the injustices of the world. Go home and be glad you have a life and for those who understand the circumstances and why it's not just Apple, but others out there who are also at fault. I applaud them for trying to bring some reason and logic to the conversation.
  • Reply 134 of 160
    nvidia2008nvidia2008 Posts: 9,262member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Daramouthe View Post


    I applaud you for trying to bring some reason and logic to the conversation.



    Err... Who are you referring to? Curious.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Daramouthe View Post


    I am glad that Apple is at least responding to it and trying to correct what they can, but they are working not only with a place they don't own, but a government that is not like ours. Although I'm sure there would be some to disagree. People also need to remember that it is not just Apple they do buisness through. If you want to protest, protest the injustices we have here and internationally. Hunger, famine, homelessness, people who need medical help and the list goes on. So for those who think that it's just up to Apple only to change the injustices of the world. Go home and be glad you have a life and for those who understand the circumstances and why it's not just Apple, but others out there who are also at fault.



    I agree to a large degree. What pisses me off is that Apple is the whipping boy for every bl**dy single thing in the world. The goshdarned low hanging fruit (pun unintended) in the activism world.



    Of course I support the "left-wing" but I question the specific targeting of Apple, because:



    1. Apple is shown to be mostly progressive compared to other companies. If other companies see that, wow, even Apple gets hammered, they might prefer to not do anything because they might feel it's not worth it in the long run, they would prefer to "lay low".



    2. Yes, Apple is huge, but there are other very large, significant countries and companies around the world which are causing massive harm. Again, I talk about Malaysia just to throw something in the mix and raise awareness that the developing world is overall really quite messed up, not just China or India. Yes China is big and a lot of Western companies are investing and soon will be very reliant on them. But like you say stuff happens everywhere. Another thing in Malaysia is toxic waste due to a proposed rare-earth processing plant right next door to a residential area (in Malaysia the idea of urban planning and zoning pretty much went out the window a long time ago and it's up to large land developers to provide that sanity of planning to make the new developments attractive). It will be the first rare-earth processing plant to be built outside of China because of how toxic it is.



    3. Which raises my final point... As more pressure heaps onto China, just like the Malaysia toxic waste case above ( http://stoplynas.org/ ) ... You will also start to see China "export" the "dirty stuff" out of the country. Either implicitly by Chinese corporations (Foxconn in Brazil) or by other companies (Lynas in Australia building rare-earth processing plants outside of China). So a more holistic view is important for the "left". Sure, Apple is an easy punching bag and now a big target of anti-capitalism ( Yes, the idea that if you buy Apple you are a big capitalist... Puh-leaseee) and garners easy media attention, but don't just go for the low-hanging fruit. Real "hardcore" activism to me is stuff like chaining yourself to a BP offshore rig or something like that... I mean, how many of the protestors will have iPhones, iPads or Macs? That point alone reduces the effectiveness of the protests.
  • Reply 135 of 160
    [QUOTE=nvidia2008;2041066]Err... Who are you referring to? Curious.



    Sorry I meant them. I corrected it though.
  • Reply 136 of 160
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by kaeth View Post


    What exactly do you call the giant mass suicide threat a few months ago? Can you imagine a bunch of office workers negotiating with suicide?



    I call it just that - negotiations. Until they start offing themselves then it's an empty threat. People get disgruntled and do crazy things all the time.



    To be honest people need to look at the whole picture. Frankly, this argument is so freakin' tired. Foxconn employes almost a MILLION people at their complexes. ONE MILLION! Think about the suicide rate in the average city of ONE MILLION people. People get disgruntled and kill themselves, it's a part of life. I'm in the military and we lose people to suicides more than I care to admit.
  • Reply 137 of 160
    Oh... never mind.
  • Reply 138 of 160
    lilgto64lilgto64 Posts: 1,147member
    Some time ago I saw a program on TV - don't recall all the details - but the short version is that workers in Mexico were offered DOUBLE the standard pay and all they had to do was show up on time and work a ill shift every day for a week - and NOT ONE did so.



    i don't recall what the job was - garment factory or something - not some like underground coal mining or something that would be considered hazardous or grueling work. Tedious and repetitive perhaps and with little or no perks etc and work they were already doing anyway.



    just an example of how one's personal perspective can be quite different from another's depending on many factors that I suspect most of us rarely even stop to consider.



    I think it is a very common human thing to think that other folks are just like themselves - or that they are utterly different.



    Even something as simple as watching a news broadcast in another state for the first time in your life can make you aware that you never stopped to consider the fact that not everyone watches the same news casters or TV broadcast that you do. Local news anyway - I suppose that is less true today with CNN etc being available to a very broad audience. The point is that we spend most of our lives never questioning or examining the things that we take for granted. It is also next to impossible to stop and think of all the things that you are unaware of - since by definition you are not aware of them.
  • Reply 139 of 160
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by DeanSolecki View Post


    To give Apple a "pass" on human rights violations ...



    You do realize that Apple IS leading they way in making improvements, don't you?! Or do you?



    I do not understand why the focus among the protesters is not against the other companies that are not working as hard as Apple is for improvements. The protesters should be taking hard looks at Samsung, HTC, Motorola and the like and asking yourselves, exactly why aren't these companies working as hard as Apple is?? Why are these companies getting the "free pass"? It takes a coordinated effort of all companies conducting business with Chinese manufactures, NOT JUST ONE.



    Apple is already leading the way.
  • Reply 140 of 160
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by AmazingApple View Post


    Apple is already leading the way.



    Uhhh.... Flashbacks... FLASHBACKS...
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