Come on AppleInsider, please get rid of the hit whoring sensationalist titles, like using "confirmed" for unconfirmed rumors. We'll still click on the links.
You're conveniently leaving out typing the same way everybody has already been doing on 7"ers for quite a while, however their choice has been. Personally I do it one fingered, no thumbs. If it's a mini friggin' keyboard it's a mini friggin' keyboard. The keyboard on the current iPad isn't exactly, um, shall we say, without any downside?
That's like complaining about the iPad3 because you can't watch movies on it from across the room, so it's a stupid device.
Exactly! Besides that, the most things a lot of people will ever type on it is username/password combos and google searches!!! How long can that take with one finger?!
Another advantage to the size besides what has already been mentioned is that the weight will likely be lower making for a better e reader. I have a kindle that is much lighter than any ipad and I would much rather read on it because it is so much lighter!!
Say what you will, a smaller iPad would sell a LOT! Still a bad idea? HARDLY!!! Ask the stockholders next year if it was a bad idea.
I get the feeling Apple will discontinue the iPad 2. Then, they will have the iPad and iPad Mini, both with Retina displays. The Mini will have lots of competition so they will need it to have the best display on the market. The price point would conflict with the iPad 2, especially if the Mini is offered with higher RAM at a price nearing $400.
So would you rather buy a 16GB iPad 2 10" without a Retina display or a 32GB iPad Mini 7.85" with Retina and faster processor? I think that's a tough call for many people. My wife for example doesn't have the best eyesight so she can't appreciate a Retina display and would rather have the 10".
Apple will take away the quandary for people I think and offer only the new iPad in 10". They'll drop the price of the iPad 2 by 50-100 to clear them out. Lots of people will buy them up for Christmas presents and maybe institutional purchases. I might buy 3 or 4 for my work.
Probably, we will see both new iPads introduced in October with the new dock connector. Will the 10" get any other refreshes? I say no on that and we may see a refresh in March for that model back on the regular cycle.
Just speculation of course but that's what makes watching all this fun for us geeks.
Seems Apple will have truly made a 'toy' in that case. How much work can really get done with one finger?
I dunno. They keep talking to their computers on Star Trek: TNG. I use the dictation features in iOS 5 instead of typing into my iPad where possible. A real time saver.
Seems Apple will have truly made a 'toy' in that case. How much work can really get done with one finger?
++ Sales ? good idea.
Apple just spent many millions in facebook integration, instant messaging, facetiming, on and on, and you're using getting work done as something that should be on their foremost radar? Where've you been the past three years?
Apple just spent many millions in facebook integration, instant messaging, facetiming, on and on, and you're using getting work done as something that should be on their foremost radar?
That's not a rebuttal. An opinion of what Apple intends for the devices isn't significant. How the devices are actually being used is. We've seen iPads fall up into every industry under the sun for the purpose of actual work. If Apple isn't working to make future models even more suitable for said industries, they can enjoy their lost revenue, lost marketshare, and lost market when someone else comes in and makes a tablet that does. And since Apple seems to be absolutely spectacular at not losing revenue, marketshare, and the market itself once they're in it, I doubt they'll ignore people who want to do work with their tablets.
None. So stop this crap. I won't be saying one word apologetic or inversely or anything if one is released. I don't have to. There's no social or moral obligation to apologize for thinking a terrible idea is a terrible idea. I'm certainly no longer certain that there won't be one, I'm just certain it's a useless product.
No one ate any hats when the iPhone nano never happened. That's that.
I have a very hard time believing there will be a small iPad also. I'll believe it when it's in the Apple Store.
That's not a rebuttal. An opinion of what Apple intends for the devices isn't significant. How the devices are actually being used is. We've seen iPads fall up into every industry under the sun for the purpose of actual work. If Apple isn't working to make future models even more suitable for said industries, they can enjoy their lost revenue, lost marketshare, and lost market when someone else comes in and makes a tablet that does. And since Apple seems to be absolutely spectacular at not losing revenue, marketshare, and the market itself once they're in it, I doubt they'll ignore people who want to do work with their tablets.
Now if only they'd do the same with Macs.
Did you miss the whole iPod era? iPodTouch era? Apple makes appliances, they don't fulfill the particular market you're talking about.
Weren't you railing against the "pro" users who felt abandoned by Apple in their worlds, saying they just need to get with the program?
If they are going to price this puppy competitively to compete at around the $199 level they will have to skimp on a few bits and pieces. It will be entry level. Otherwise it might cannibalize the iPad 3 sales if the specs are too good.
That would go against when SJ said "The reason we [won't] make a 7-inch tablet isn't because we don't want to hit that price point, it's because we think the screen is too small to express the software. As a software driven company we think about the software strategies first." He went on to say the 7-inch form factor "isn't sufficient to create great tablet apps."
From a previous thread
Asked by an analyst how he would respond -- and whether Apple would lose share -- if the market suddenly moves to a lower price point with fewer features, Jobs said "You're looking at it wrong, […] looking at it as a hardware manufacturer who doesn't know much about software who assumes the software will take care of itself."
"Hm, how can we make this cheaper? Well let's put a smaller screen, slower processor, less memory, and you just assume the software will somehow come alive on this product but it won't," Jobs quipped. "Developers have taken advantage of faster processors and bigger screens to make better apps for customers."
That's not a rebuttal. An opinion of what Apple intends for the devices isn't significant. How the devices are actually being used is. We've seen iPads fall up into every industry under the sun for the purpose of actual work. If Apple isn't working to make future models even more suitable for said industries, they can enjoy their lost revenue, lost marketshare, and lost market when someone else comes in and makes a tablet that does. And since Apple seems to be absolutely spectacular at not losing revenue, marketshare, and the market itself once they're in it, I doubt they'll ignore people who want to do work with their tablets.
Now if only they'd do the same with Macs.
In the medical industry for example you can use an iPad. As someone earlier said the extent of typing is reduced to username and password. Then you type in the case number with one finger. After that you are presented with icons of x-rays and patient data which is for the most part simply swiping from one screen to the next. Whatever data you need to enter is in form fields which doesn't warrant setting the device down on a flat surface to touch type. Most of the time you need to adjust the angle of the device anyway to avoid reflections on the screen. I'd say 99% of the time it is going to be a one finger data entry task. Most business uses of the iPad are not related to extended typing sessions. Some can be but that is rarely the intended function of most apps.
In the medical industry for example you can use an iPad. As someone earlier said the extent of typing is reduced to username and password. Then you type in the case number with one finger. After that you are presented with icons of x-rays and patient data which is for the most part simply swiping from one screen to the next. Whatever data you need to enter is in form fields which doesn't warrant setting the device down on a flat surface to touch type. Most of the time you need to adjust the angle of the device anyway to avoid reflections on the screen. I'd say 99% of the time it is going to be a one finger data entry task. Most business uses of the iPad are not related to extended typing sessions. Some can be but that is rarely the intended function of most apps.
Medical industry actually has two possible area of use. First - physicians and iPad hands down is the king here. I see no place for mini here. Second and absolutely MASSIVE scenario is phlebotomy and Apple is absolutely out of the picture so far for absence of infrared scanner on device. Some big hospitals have as many as 8K users and they all want to scan labels - specimens, tubes, patient braslets etc. On this field our best seller is pocket PC version even though we offer software for iOS/Android with Bluetooth scanner. Btw they login to the system with badge scanning too.
I used to be of the thought that a 7~8" iPad mini is unnecessary until I started commuting in the subway trains of Seoul, Tokyo and other densely populated cities around the world over the past year or so. I live in Southern California so that's about as opposite as the geography gets for large metropolitan centers. Here in So Cal, I definitely don't see the need for a smaller iPad when I have the iPad 2 that I'm very happy with. Still, whenever I go into a Starbucks or B&N, I always see a decent number of Kindles and Nooks and most of them are browsing the web or typing up emails. Ditto for the airports...
When I go to Asia, I start seeing a lot more 7~8" tablets from the likes of Samsung, Asus and whoever else (it's hard to discern the brands). I'll sometimes be in Seoul for weeks at a time taking the subway trains and walking a whole lot like the majority of the population. Seriously, people there probably walk more in one day than Southern Californians typically walk in one month. Due to the traffic and extreme parking difficulties, it's just not worth driving a car around for most people. I could drive there but definitely prefer to get around Seoul in the subway system.
Virtually everyone in a subway train has his or head buried in a smartphone or a small tablet. You'd really be surprised how many people have the 5.3" Galaxy Note there, even women with small hands. It's become such a common sight that I don't smirk anymore like I first did when I saw someone talking on the thing. It's not often that one can get to sit down on a subway train. Normally, you're standing in the train - more than half the time and the train is very cramped. Your personal space gets very limited and taking out an iPad to kill 30~60 minutes while standing is not very practical nor pleasant after about 10 minutes. I was thinking, "Man, an iPad mini right now would feel like a godsend."
But I wouldn't really need one at home in Southern Cal although my kids would certainly enjoy it. The iPad 2 is great for what I need to do here and most of the time in Asia as well, but when commuting (which makes up a significant amount of time for the populace there), the iPad mini would indeed be a better form factor. Seoul has 4G and super fast Wi-Fi virtually in every corner. Technologically, it's definitely the most advanced city I've ever seen. I can find free and very fast Wi-Fi connection virtually anywhere I walk into - a restaurant, a coffee shop, a department store, a hospital, wherever... But it's almost always crowded and the space is tight wherever you go as well. A smaller tablet would just be more convenient to break out in such environments there.
We have to understand that the world is actually quite big. We can't see the rest of the world from the perspective of our own neighborhoods and our small insulated worlds of our work, family, leisure, etc. Many billions of people around the world don't live like we do and have different needs. The iPad mini will be a huge hit in countries like Korea, China, and Japan as well as in Europe where most people also commute on foot and by mass transit. If I lived there, the mini would probably become my primary device whenever I'm on the move, which would be a lot. I'm looking forward to it. I won't be getting the new iPhone since I still have another year left for the 4S but a mini would definitely be something I'd pick up for myself as well as the kids for this Xmas.
That's not a rebuttal. An opinion of what Apple intends for the devices isn't significant. How the devices are actually being used is. We've seen iPads fall up into every industry under the sun for the purpose of actual work. If Apple isn't working to make future models even more suitable for said industries, they can enjoy their lost revenue, lost marketshare, and lost market when someone else comes in and makes a tablet that does. And since Apple seems to be absolutely spectacular at not losing revenue, marketshare, and the market itself once they're in it, I doubt they'll ignore people who want to do work with their tablets.
Now you've just completely lost me, sorry. I expressed no opinion on either Apple's intent for a device nor how the device actually gets used. What I did express is that since a huge market of Apple's is one which isn't thinking about getting work done at the moment they're engaged with the widget, it makes no sense to dismiss an upcoming model because of any shortcomings as far as being able to get work done. If it makes you crazy that it's almost like a big iPod instead of a bigger, better iPad, well, I don't know what to tell you. Except that you're pointing out a major shortcoming of a banana's value is that it's not crunchy.
A smaller iPad would be worse at everything the iPad can do. Lower resolution, shorter battery life, slower processor, worse graphics, gimped connectivity, and we're hearing it might have a plastic back. The only benefit, if you can call it that, is that it's smaller. Big whoop.
There's no reason it has to be worse at anything. If the tech can be put into an iPhone, it can certainly go into a slightly smaller iPad.
People say, 'portability'. You can't put this thing in a pocket. You have to carry it around in a hand, just like you would a regular iPad, only this one is so small that it barely justifies carrying it around in that manner. "So they put it in their purse," they say. So Apple's supposed to make a product only for women? I mean no disrespect to men who carry purses, but come on. That's not a valid reason to make a product.
A 7-8" tablet can fit into a lot of places that a full size iPad can't. A glove box, a map pocket, a jacket pocket, and yes, even the back pocket of a pair of jeans.
People say, 'cost'. That's why the iPad 2 is still for sale. In seven more months, the iPad 2 will be $299. That kills every other tablet on the market right now, even more so than the 70+% shipment and 95% use of the iPad over other tablets already does. Cost is the reason the iPhone 4 and 3GS are still for sale. They fill the low-end gap that the "iPhone nano" was imagined to fill without making compromises in the way of features like a smaller simultaneous iPad would.
Lower cost seems to be the direction it's heading, but there's no reason it has to. Apple will sell millions of them, even if it's exactly the same price as the 10" version. I know I want a smaller one bad enough that would gladly pay exactly the same price. It wasn't that long ago that if something was smaller, that meant it cost more.
People say, 'usability'. I say, "Yes, lessened." Size-wise it comes out to, what, about half the size of the iPad. Cut an iPad in half and that's about what a 7" one would be, right? And let's assume the "thinner side bezel" bit is true. That drops at least one way of holding it in landscape and nearly every comfortable way in portrait. But even if there's a uniform bezel, it's going to be just large enough to not be graspable (not holdable, graspable) with a single hand. The size (specifically width) makes it psychologically close enough to a phone that people'll desire to hold it like one. And when they can't, there'll be trouble. And this whole bit has just been about hardware; imagine the keyboard on this thing. No ten finger typing for anyone, no sir. Not even children.
No one has any problem holding or typing any of the current crop of 7" tablets. many of them are very useful and capable devices that really only have one major flaw: they run on Android. My 7" tablet is very functional, very capable, a lot easier to carry around than my iPad, much easier to use as an eReader, etc, etc. It's only issue is that Android sucks donkey balls.
Comments
There's no "in fact" here.
Come on AppleInsider, please get rid of the hit whoring sensationalist titles, like using "confirmed" for unconfirmed rumors. We'll still click on the links.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlandd
You're conveniently leaving out typing the same way everybody has already been doing on 7"ers for quite a while, however their choice has been. Personally I do it one fingered, no thumbs. If it's a mini friggin' keyboard it's a mini friggin' keyboard. The keyboard on the current iPad isn't exactly, um, shall we say, without any downside?
That's like complaining about the iPad3 because you can't watch movies on it from across the room, so it's a stupid device.
Exactly! Besides that, the most things a lot of people will ever type on it is username/password combos and google searches!!! How long can that take with one finger?!
Another advantage to the size besides what has already been mentioned is that the weight will likely be lower making for a better e reader. I have a kindle that is much lighter than any ipad and I would much rather read on it because it is so much lighter!!
Say what you will, a smaller iPad would sell a LOT! Still a bad idea? HARDLY!!! Ask the stockholders next year if it was a bad idea.
How can this site declare this to be "in fact" when it is just another rumor?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton
How can this site declare this to be "in fact" when it is just another rumor?
Because they have massive issues.
I get the feeling Apple will discontinue the iPad 2. Then, they will have the iPad and iPad Mini, both with Retina displays. The Mini will have lots of competition so they will need it to have the best display on the market. The price point would conflict with the iPad 2, especially if the Mini is offered with higher RAM at a price nearing $400.
So would you rather buy a 16GB iPad 2 10" without a Retina display or a 32GB iPad Mini 7.85" with Retina and faster processor? I think that's a tough call for many people. My wife for example doesn't have the best eyesight so she can't appreciate a Retina display and would rather have the 10".
Apple will take away the quandary for people I think and offer only the new iPad in 10". They'll drop the price of the iPad 2 by 50-100 to clear them out. Lots of people will buy them up for Christmas presents and maybe institutional purchases. I might buy 3 or 4 for my work.
Probably, we will see both new iPads introduced in October with the new dock connector. Will the 10" get any other refreshes? I say no on that and we may see a refresh in March for that model back on the regular cycle.
Just speculation of course but that's what makes watching all this fun for us geeks.
Originally Posted by faster
…the most things a lot of people will ever type on it is username/password combos and google searches!!!
Seems Apple will have truly made a 'toy' in that case. How much work can really get done with one finger?
Say what you will, a smaller iPad would sell a LOT! Still a bad idea? HARDLY!!!
++ Sales ? good idea.
Quote:
Originally Posted by logandigges
Dude, it was a fucking 5 minute photoshop job.
A 'shop chop!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Seems Apple will have truly made a 'toy' in that case. How much work can really get done with one finger?
I dunno. They keep talking to their computers on Star Trek: TNG. I use the dictation features in iOS 5 instead of typing into my iPad where possible. A real time saver.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Seems Apple will have truly made a 'toy' in that case. How much work can really get done with one finger?
++ Sales ? good idea.
Apple just spent many millions in facebook integration, instant messaging, facetiming, on and on, and you're using getting work done as something that should be on their foremost radar? Where've you been the past three years?
Originally Posted by jlandd
Apple just spent many millions in facebook integration, instant messaging, facetiming, on and on, and you're using getting work done as something that should be on their foremost radar?
That's not a rebuttal. An opinion of what Apple intends for the devices isn't significant. How the devices are actually being used is. We've seen iPads fall up into every industry under the sun for the purpose of actual work. If Apple isn't working to make future models even more suitable for said industries, they can enjoy their lost revenue, lost marketshare, and lost market when someone else comes in and makes a tablet that does. And since Apple seems to be absolutely spectacular at not losing revenue, marketshare, and the market itself once they're in it, I doubt they'll ignore people who want to do work with their tablets.
Now if only they'd do the same with Macs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
None. So stop this crap. I won't be saying one word apologetic or inversely or anything if one is released. I don't have to. There's no social or moral obligation to apologize for thinking a terrible idea is a terrible idea. I'm certainly no longer certain that there won't be one, I'm just certain it's a useless product.
No one ate any hats when the iPhone nano never happened. That's that.
I have a very hard time believing there will be a small iPad also. I'll believe it when it's in the Apple Store.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
That's not a rebuttal. An opinion of what Apple intends for the devices isn't significant. How the devices are actually being used is. We've seen iPads fall up into every industry under the sun for the purpose of actual work. If Apple isn't working to make future models even more suitable for said industries, they can enjoy their lost revenue, lost marketshare, and lost market when someone else comes in and makes a tablet that does. And since Apple seems to be absolutely spectacular at not losing revenue, marketshare, and the market itself once they're in it, I doubt they'll ignore people who want to do work with their tablets.
Now if only they'd do the same with Macs.
Did you miss the whole iPod era? iPodTouch era? Apple makes appliances, they don't fulfill the particular market you're talking about.
Weren't you railing against the "pro" users who felt abandoned by Apple in their worlds, saying they just need to get with the program?
Dude, get with the program.
That would go against when SJ said "The reason we [won't] make a 7-inch tablet isn't because we don't want to hit that price point, it's because we think the screen is too small to express the software. As a software driven company we think about the software strategies first." He went on to say the 7-inch form factor "isn't sufficient to create great tablet apps."
From a previous thread
I just dont see it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
That's not a rebuttal. An opinion of what Apple intends for the devices isn't significant. How the devices are actually being used is. We've seen iPads fall up into every industry under the sun for the purpose of actual work. If Apple isn't working to make future models even more suitable for said industries, they can enjoy their lost revenue, lost marketshare, and lost market when someone else comes in and makes a tablet that does. And since Apple seems to be absolutely spectacular at not losing revenue, marketshare, and the market itself once they're in it, I doubt they'll ignore people who want to do work with their tablets.
Now if only they'd do the same with Macs.
In the medical industry for example you can use an iPad. As someone earlier said the extent of typing is reduced to username and password. Then you type in the case number with one finger. After that you are presented with icons of x-rays and patient data which is for the most part simply swiping from one screen to the next. Whatever data you need to enter is in form fields which doesn't warrant setting the device down on a flat surface to touch type. Most of the time you need to adjust the angle of the device anyway to avoid reflections on the screen. I'd say 99% of the time it is going to be a one finger data entry task. Most business uses of the iPad are not related to extended typing sessions. Some can be but that is rarely the intended function of most apps.
21 message a day for two straight years. Impressive dedication.
Medical industry actually has two possible area of use. First - physicians and iPad hands down is the king here. I see no place for mini here. Second and absolutely MASSIVE scenario is phlebotomy and Apple is absolutely out of the picture so far for absence of infrared scanner on device. Some big hospitals have as many as 8K users and they all want to scan labels - specimens, tubes, patient braslets etc. On this field our best seller is pocket PC version even though we offer software for iOS/Android with Bluetooth scanner. Btw they login to the system with badge scanning too.
I used to be of the thought that a 7~8" iPad mini is unnecessary until I started commuting in the subway trains of Seoul, Tokyo and other densely populated cities around the world over the past year or so. I live in Southern California so that's about as opposite as the geography gets for large metropolitan centers. Here in So Cal, I definitely don't see the need for a smaller iPad when I have the iPad 2 that I'm very happy with. Still, whenever I go into a Starbucks or B&N, I always see a decent number of Kindles and Nooks and most of them are browsing the web or typing up emails. Ditto for the airports...
When I go to Asia, I start seeing a lot more 7~8" tablets from the likes of Samsung, Asus and whoever else (it's hard to discern the brands). I'll sometimes be in Seoul for weeks at a time taking the subway trains and walking a whole lot like the majority of the population. Seriously, people there probably walk more in one day than Southern Californians typically walk in one month. Due to the traffic and extreme parking difficulties, it's just not worth driving a car around for most people. I could drive there but definitely prefer to get around Seoul in the subway system.
Virtually everyone in a subway train has his or head buried in a smartphone or a small tablet. You'd really be surprised how many people have the 5.3" Galaxy Note there, even women with small hands. It's become such a common sight that I don't smirk anymore like I first did when I saw someone talking on the thing. It's not often that one can get to sit down on a subway train. Normally, you're standing in the train - more than half the time and the train is very cramped. Your personal space gets very limited and taking out an iPad to kill 30~60 minutes while standing is not very practical nor pleasant after about 10 minutes. I was thinking, "Man, an iPad mini right now would feel like a godsend."
But I wouldn't really need one at home in Southern Cal although my kids would certainly enjoy it. The iPad 2 is great for what I need to do here and most of the time in Asia as well, but when commuting (which makes up a significant amount of time for the populace there), the iPad mini would indeed be a better form factor. Seoul has 4G and super fast Wi-Fi virtually in every corner. Technologically, it's definitely the most advanced city I've ever seen. I can find free and very fast Wi-Fi connection virtually anywhere I walk into - a restaurant, a coffee shop, a department store, a hospital, wherever... But it's almost always crowded and the space is tight wherever you go as well. A smaller tablet would just be more convenient to break out in such environments there.
We have to understand that the world is actually quite big. We can't see the rest of the world from the perspective of our own neighborhoods and our small insulated worlds of our work, family, leisure, etc. Many billions of people around the world don't live like we do and have different needs. The iPad mini will be a huge hit in countries like Korea, China, and Japan as well as in Europe where most people also commute on foot and by mass transit. If I lived there, the mini would probably become my primary device whenever I'm on the move, which would be a lot. I'm looking forward to it. I won't be getting the new iPhone since I still have another year left for the 4S but a mini would definitely be something I'd pick up for myself as well as the kids for this Xmas.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
That's not a rebuttal. An opinion of what Apple intends for the devices isn't significant. How the devices are actually being used is. We've seen iPads fall up into every industry under the sun for the purpose of actual work. If Apple isn't working to make future models even more suitable for said industries, they can enjoy their lost revenue, lost marketshare, and lost market when someone else comes in and makes a tablet that does. And since Apple seems to be absolutely spectacular at not losing revenue, marketshare, and the market itself once they're in it, I doubt they'll ignore people who want to do work with their tablets.
Now you've just completely lost me, sorry. I expressed no opinion on either Apple's intent for a device nor how the device actually gets used. What I did express is that since a huge market of Apple's is one which isn't thinking about getting work done at the moment they're engaged with the widget, it makes no sense to dismiss an upcoming model because of any shortcomings as far as being able to get work done. If it makes you crazy that it's almost like a big iPod instead of a bigger, better iPad, well, I don't know what to tell you. Except that you're pointing out a major shortcoming of a banana's value is that it's not crunchy.
There's no reason it has to be worse at anything. If the tech can be put into an iPhone, it can certainly go into a slightly smaller iPad.
A 7-8" tablet can fit into a lot of places that a full size iPad can't. A glove box, a map pocket, a jacket pocket, and yes, even the back pocket of a pair of jeans.
Lower cost seems to be the direction it's heading, but there's no reason it has to. Apple will sell millions of them, even if it's exactly the same price as the 10" version. I know I want a smaller one bad enough that would gladly pay exactly the same price. It wasn't that long ago that if something was smaller, that meant it cost more.
No one has any problem holding or typing any of the current crop of 7" tablets. many of them are very useful and capable devices that really only have one major flaw: they run on Android. My 7" tablet is very functional, very capable, a lot easier to carry around than my iPad, much easier to use as an eReader, etc, etc. It's only issue is that Android sucks donkey balls.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton
A 'shop chop!
definitely.