Apple has cared about market share from Day One, and your not kidding your jus . . . . .
I have listened to interviews and presentations of Steve Job's discuss Mac's market share over the years
and Tim Cook discuss the iPhone's share of the world's market share and especially in China.
Apple needs an entry level product in the tablet market, iPad 2's are still too costly for many consumers when they see other $199 tablets on the market.
Apple has addressed the entry level issue in the phone market by continuing to sell the iPhone 3GS, a three year old phone that by today's standards is an inferior product. An inexpensive 7" tablet would be perfect for those consumers who might buy any other $199 tablet.
It's all about bringing in new customers, whom one day might buy a Mac or a larger more expensive iPad and so forth. In other words maintaining or increasing market share.
Worst case scenario is no 3G or no 4G. Most people don't care and don't use it anyway.
That's a bit of a dangerous thing to say. I'm the one who is supposed to be "completely ignoring a subset of the userbase". I'm not, but still.
Do you have some really, really reliable source where you've gotten that information?
Nothing more reliable than all these people saying it's happening at all, of course.
Cost: The new product will be less than the iPad 2 and the iPad 2 will most like stop being produced, or will maintain the $399 mark. I think you are assuming that technology does not change. Apple can produce a product that weighs less, is thinner, offers the same user experience if not better, updates all the ports and sensors and hits the same, if not cheaper price point.
Aside from the user experience, I'll grant you that everything else happens naturally over time. Whether it's actually possible to do (and whether it's a good idea to do) all at once right now is left to be seen.
If you do a lot of typing, get a keyboard…
I'll grant you that this is a partially valid rebuttal. However, then that's just one more thing to be carrying around, larger than the device itself, which means you may as well get the version large enough to type on in the first place.
What you are also discounting is using this device to control a second screen with enhanced AirPlay, etc.
Hmm. … Hmm. Not sure where you're headed with that, but it could be interesting.
Originally Posted by paxman
Like so many here declared the iPhone and the iPad few short years ago.
Would you buy an iPhone without data and apps? Or, rather, one with a 2.5" screen? Remember, this is Apple. You want to compare me to the people that saw problems with the size/operation of the iPhone/iPad, but I was one of the ones fighting to show that the size/operation was right! Remember, this is… ugh, I said that already. That makes me really depressed… They spent years with these things. They chose the sizes, physical and screen, that they did because they felt they were the most right, and the public has responded in a way that shows Apple's accuracy.
I wonder… and if this does not attach properly, or if it does, I'm going to transcribe it below anyway.
Regarding the infamous "sandpaper" comment. I've recently read many posts where people believe Jobs was talking about marketing successfully with this. He was not. He specifically stated that the size of the screen on 7" tablets… the physical size of the screen, not the resolution (though he does mention it), is insufficient to create "great tablet apps". He goes on, then, to reiterate this and expand on it by stating that the 10" screen size is the minimum they believe is require to do that.
I'm not saying Apple can't change their minds, particularly since he's gone. I'm not saying Apple was wrong then, or that they thought they weren't. If post-Jobs Apple has come up with a way to get around that, they're certainly welcome (read: going) to try it, regardless of what that means. But it wasn't just Steve that did the research into the tablet screen sizes. It wasn't just Steve for whom everything went. There would have been a consensus at Apple that smaller screens don't work, otherwise they very well WOULD have released a smaller iPad in 2010!
One of the only things people complained about was the weight of the first-gen iPad; I imagine Apple would have loved to shave that down! And they have, in subsequent models. And they'll keep doing that. While I don't see how people who complain about the weight of an iPad have ever held a book before, I completely understand and agree with them in their drive to make it weigh less. Indeed, it weighing less will be the key to the use of the larger iPads that will dominate the future. But of everything else, that's one of the only good explanations I've seen for a smaller iPad, and it's just something that will naturally improve over time (wow, I get to use that out of the iPhone patent context…) with iPad (and all tech) development as a whole.
Okay, transcript time, and thank heavens it's already written out.
Originally posted by Steve Jobs, Apple Q4 2010 Earnings Conference Call
Second, I'd like to comment on the avalanche of tablets poised to enter the market in the coming months.
First, it appears to be just a handful of credible entrance not exactly in avalanche. Second, almost all of them use 7-inch screen as compared to iPad and your 10-inch screen, let's start there.
One naturally thinks that a 7-inch screen would offer 70% of the benefits by the 10-inch screen. Unfortunately, this is far from the truth. The screen measurements are diagonal, so that a 7-inch screen is only 45% as large as iPad's 10-inch screen. You heard me right, just 45% as large. If you take an iPad and hold it up right in portrait view and draw an imaginary horizontal line halfway down the screen, the screens on 7-inch tablets are a bit smaller than the bottom half of the iPad display.
This size isn't sufficient to create great tablet apps, in our opinion. While one could increase the resolution of the display to make up for some of difference, it is meaningless unless your tablet also includes sandpaper, so that the user can sand down their fingers to around one quarter of their present size. Apple has done extensive user testing on touch interfaces over many years and we really understand this stuff. There are clear limits of how close you can physically place elements on a touchscreen before users cannot reliably tap, flick or pinch them. This is one of the key reasons we think the 10 inch screen size is the minimum size required to create great tablet app.
Third, every tablet user is also a smartphone user. No tablet can compete with the mobility of a smartphone. It's ease of fitting into your pocket or purse. It's unobtrusiveness when used in a crowd.
Given that all tablet users will already have smartphone in their pockets, giving up precious display area to fit a tablet in their pockets is clearly the wrong tradeoff. The 7-inch tablets, or Tweeners, too big to compete with a smartphone and too small to compete with an iPad.
Emphasis, showing he was not talking about simply marketing, but rather the physical size, usability and experience itself, mine.
Actual audio below (it's a zip because the forum won't let us upload M4A directly), hopefully that works for everyone:
Originally Posted by antkm1
If they start this off at $199...mark my words it will cannibalize the IPad 3 by at least 50-75% this Holiday season. It will be THE GIFT to buy.
Edit: And that kind of scares me. Because despite what people say, the 10" iPad will take a huge hit for no other reason than price. When it all comes down to it...the average consumer will 100% of the time choose price and sacrifice usability. All we will hear is, "yeah, I went or the 7" because it was cheaper, I dont need the bigger screen anyway, this is just as good and sooo much cheaper".
And see, here's the thing about that: they're wrong. They're always wrong. That's exactly what is happening with all manner of Android tablets now! There are literally $70 7" tablets in Big Lots' around the country. SEVENTY dollars. People certainly don't think they need the larger screen. People certainly think it's "just as good". People certainly buy it just because it's cheaper. And you and I and everyone else here would be in complete agreement that they're wrong about that.
With a smaller iPad, it's my belief that we'd see the exact same thing, only now the criticism and poor reviews would be toward an Apple product, not a third-party one.
Also, I saw your report, of course, and I wish to clarify that I mean absolutely no disrespect toward nor wish to diminish the hardships through which people with depression go. I've certainly felt help-/hopeless and have experienced true depression in even the very recent past, but it is my personal belief that a sentient being should never wish itself gone and that doing so is a far greater failure than any operational stumble causing depression.
Well a iPad mini will maintain apple tablet dominance even with win8 talents coming intone market. And If they also get android phones to pay for a license the stock will hit 1000$ in 2013...
Like the 11" mba over the 13" mba, and 13"mbp over the 15"mbp?
I'd have to see the numbers, but I'm pretty certain the 13" MBP is the best selling MB model. It might now be overtaken by the 13" Air...don't know the current facts.
Another good comparison is when the iPod Mini, then Nano, the standard iPod (now the "Classic") became almost obsolete, if it weren't for it's massive storage capabilities.
Edit: let me also add that I think comparing cannibalization of the iPad to the Macbook line is kind of disproportionate because the overall price levels are greater.
I think you see less cannibalization in the Macbook line because when you look at a purchase over a certain amount (let's say $999) value becomes more important than price.
When you're talking about spending $500 compared to $200, then Price becomes a much bigger factor.
Or, it could be 10" iPad and 7" iPad. That would be way better that iPad, and iPad mini, IMO
It's odd to round up for a value that ends in .7 and odd to round down for one that ends in .85. They both should be rounded up for the obvious reason. The only reason we were ever saying a 7" iPad was because there were 7" tablets trying to compete with the iPad, but this would be an 8" iPad at that size.
You know I often disagree with you, and you and I have had our share of heated debates, but I have to show my support of your thoughts about the iPad Mini. Not only because you're getting beat-up a bit, but because i honestly agree with you.
Additionally, It really irks me when people on this forum go overboard with the heated rebuttals. And there are some comments on this thread that really go too far (of one in particular has been reported). Wishing someone ill-will should NEVER come into play on a public forum. You know people, you can have a civil debate without being offensive or tactless. No one should be personally attached for having an opinion.
Now I don't 100% agree with your arguments on the iPad mini (gosh I really hope they don't call it that), but you have my support.
It's odd to round up for a value that ends in .7 and odd to round down for one that ends in .85. They both should be rounded up for the obvious reason. The only reason we were ever saying a 7" iPad was because there were 7" tablets trying to compete with the iPad, but this would be an 8" iPad at that size.
exactly my point. pick a direction to round. I'm sure i'm not the first to notice the inconsistent rounding when referencing the sizes but I'm surprised i haven't seen the argument before. Yeah, and they round-down on the Macbook screen sizes, even though the 11" air is 11.6" they still round down.
You know I often disagree with you, and you and I have had our share of heated debates, but I have to show my support of your thoughts about the iPad Mini. Not only because you're getting beat-up a bit, but because i honestly agree with you.
Additionally, It really irks me when people on this forum go overboard with the heated rebuttals. And there are some comments on this thread that really go too far (of one in particular has been reported). Wishing someone ill-will should NEVER come into play on a public forum. You know people, you can have a civil debate without being offensive or tactless. No one should be personally attached for having an opinion.
Now I don't 100% agree with your arguments on the iPad mini (gosh I really hope they don't call it that), but you have my support.
Thank you very much! And yes, things can get pretty heated around here. I know I've certainly been courser than I would've wished at times. Though not an excuse for one's own actions, I sometimes like to go read a thread or two in PoliticalOutsider to get a sense of scale. Occasionally I think that if all voters were as vocal as on that subforum, we'd have a civil war at every election.
Should it exist, iPad mini seems like the most likely name (to me, at least), and Apple has shown no aversion to bringing back the past (iBook and iBooks, though they're different markets now). Maybe iPad nano, and while that certainly seems a little silly, it would cut out all talk of "a smaller iPad mini". Just… not "iPad Air"…
As I noted in my edited previous post, I think they should take a note from the Macbook nomenclature and just put the size as the suffix. iPad 10", iPad 8" or however you'd like to round it. That would be more the Apple thing to do IMO.
Sigh...but "mini" might differentiate it more. So "mini" might just be used (not only since it's already being and has been used) to market the distinct difference in user experience, as to possibly avert the inevitable cannibalization that will occur.
Ok, here's where we differ. to me, Siri has yet to prove itself viable as being a better alternative to anything the user couldn't already do. I'd only argue for dictation, but that's not even Siri really. And I strongly disagree to having an Siri-infused ATV or iPod...rubbish. The tech is just not there yet, and would be really annoying in those cases if it were the only option. And I really don't see a universal advantage for the iPod line. I think it was proof when they released the button-less iPod Shuffle, the one that totally bombed. iPods (meaning dedicated audio/video devices) need tactile feedback, eyes-free.
It should have been called a "hobby", not a "beta". Maybe it's where I live, but literally everyone I know has pretty much stopped using Siri for anything but voice dictation. At least since January of this year. Every time I ask why..."it always tells me it can't understand, or can't connect with the server or try again later or some other excuse".
Would you buy an iPhone without data and apps? Or, rather, one with a 2.5" screen? Remember, this is Apple. You want to compare me to the people that saw problems with the size/operation of the iPhone/iPad, but I was one of the ones fighting to show that the size/operation was right! Remember, this is… ugh, I said that already. That makes me really depressed… They spent years with these things. They chose the sizes, physical and screen, that they did because they felt they were the most right, and the public has responded in a way that shows Apple's accuracy.
I wonder… and if this does not attach properly, or if it does, I'm going to transcribe it below anyway....
.....
I am not quoting the rest because it is so long and trust anyone interested will read your post above
I am not disputing what Steve Jobs said and the work Apple put into the original iPad. And I am not disputing the 10" is the optimal size. ... THEN...
It is only a short time ago but things have really changed. The market has matured, people have spent much time with tablets and become used to them. What was 100% true only a few years ago may not be as true now. There are more shades of gray. Nothing is ever fixed in stone. The 11" Air is really the new 13" MB, and it is great. I use one frequently. I use an iPad also and I find it BIG for a lot of tasks. By the same measure I find my iPhone too small. My kids use iPads for gaming and I know for a fact that the iPad would often be too big for them, yet they would LOVE a larger iPod Touch. I can easily imagine a 7"+ device. I can even see it as a wide screen device. Flip it horizontal and it will be wide enough to read most websites and documents fine, though I doubt people who need to do those two things a lot will opt for the smaller device even if it is half the price.
ANTKM1 worries about cannibalization but I don't think it will be a major factor. I think it will happen but this will easily be balanced out by the increase in devices sold. Mots people over 40/50 will prefer a larger device. People who use it professionally wil prefer the larger screen. For education I really don't know I imagine it will be split. Gamers will definitely go nuts for the smaller size as will parents buying their kids a first device. Readers and people who want a quick 'go to' super portable device will love the smaller size and many many people will have both in their house. Its a win win the way I see it. Its an expansion of the market and there is definitely room for it. There are several laptop sizes and several monitor sizes out there. For Apple to fit in a size between 4" and 10" makes total sense. Not then, but now.
So no matter what Steve Jobs said then, and I am willing to concede that he was absolutely right at the time, I think the world has evolved and there is a massive market share waiting for Apple. One other point - When Steve said what he said, did he really imagine the breadth of the App and accessory market? Am 7"+ iPad will be amazing as a controller, a car device, a travelling guide, a music controller, a camera, etc etc.
I really don't see it as an inferior product by any measure. I see it as hands down awesome.... if Apple chooses to release it.
Oh, and the name will be iPad Mini whether it is infact a larger iPod or smaller iPad. Its just a better name and that's how people will see it - a small iPad.
So all the people, like myself, who use an iPad on their lap propped up at a comfortable angle with one hand while typing hunt and peck style with the other are suddenly not going to be able to use an iPad mini. I am just guessing here, but I bet most people don't touch type with two hands on an iPad and typing with two thumbs is mostly a style suited for iPhone.
I have been quickly figuring out that typing on the iPad or iPhone with two hands/thumbs will not only be faster, but more accurate.
It's been a really annoying discovery that the faster you "hunt and peck" with one hand/finger on these devices, the more mistakes you'll make, and sometimes (mostly) it's not your fault but the software.
I started realizing that the software was intentionally leaving typed characters out of my words when typing quickly with one finger. and it's my tested theory that the software thinks you are accidentally typing too many keys and it defaults to the 2nd or sometimes the 3rd typed character depending on how fast you type.
For example, words like "the" when typed too quickly with on finger will result in "he". BUT this scenario does not occur when using 2 hands/thumbs.
Sort of a tangential comments but adds to the argument that a 7.85" iPad might have a slightly less-usable experience.
I love my iPad and it is the one best things ever created in my opinion but a 7.8in iPad is more convenient for us to carry around than the 10in one.
I don't know about you many of us have a knapsack to carry our stuffs and can easily slip one in, er, the purse is not necessary.
Whatever is your opinion you are entitled to one.
I may buy one if the price is right but aiming for the iPad 4.
I have to disagree, I think a 7.85" iPad is no more portable than a 9.7" iPad. Cargo Pants/shorts or not, Purse or not, you will need some kind of carrying accessory for this device. And if you will need a carrying accessory, it makes no difference if the device is 7.85" or 9.7". Many purses and "European Carry-Alls" will easily fit the current iPad. Sure maybe not a clutch purse but most standard one's will fit the current iPad. In the case of cargo pants...just try to sit down with that device in a pocket that orients 90 degrees perpendicular to a seat and get back to me.
Here is the thing I don't get about tallest skil. he admitted he doesn't have an iPhone. (Not counting a freebie 1st gen he won) and I believe he said he doesn't have an iPad either. I wonder if he even has a Mac? For someone that doesn't use an iPhone or iPad on a regular basis like most of us here (myself included) I find it laughable how he can have such strong opinions about what Apple should or should not make. He got furious because I used the term iPhone 5 which I found ridiculous since everyone easily understands that term and what it means. Seriously though, for someone that really doesn't even seem to use Apple products he sure has some pretty strong opinions. It is fine to have strong opinions, but don't call people that disagree with you idiots and use your power as mod to threaten banning them when you so often go over the line yourself. How and why did AI choose him as a mod? Was he less trollike in the past?
If they start this off at $199...mark my words it will cannibalize the IPad 3 by at least 50-75% this Holiday season. It will be THE GIFT to buy.
Edit: And that kind of scares me. Because despite what people say, the 10" iPad will take a huge hit for no other reason than price. When it all comes down to it...the average consumer will 100% of the time choose price and sacrifice usability. All we will hear is, "yeah, I went or the 7" because it was cheaper, I dont need the bigger screen anyway, this is just as good and sooo much cheaper".
Apple has always canabiloze their own products as they did the iPod with iPhones. What a 7" iPad gives them is the dominance of tablets which they lost in the phones arena and also a cheap tab,et for schools. The iPad 3 will sold less I agree but the iPad mini will sell VERY well which will more than make up the loses IMHO...
Here is the thing I don't get about tallest skil. he admitted he doesn't have an iPhone. (Not counting a freebie 1st gen he won) and I believe he said he doesn't have an iPad either. I wonder if he even has a Mac? For someone that doesn't use an iPhone or iPad on a regular basis like most of us here (myself included) I find it laughable how he can have such strong opinions about what Apple should or should not make. He got furious because I used the term iPhone 5 which I found ridiculous since everyone easily understands that term and what it means. Seriously though, for someone that really doesn't even seem to use Apple products he sure has some pretty strong opinions. It is fine to have strong opinions, but don't call people that disagree with you idiots and use your power as mod to threaten banning them when you so often go over the line yourself. How and why did AI choose him as a mod? Was he less trollike in the past?
I don't know his history and you're older on the forum with fewer posts, so I commend you for that. All I know is that i never thought moderators had the right to even post personal opinions on forums, they are solely responsible for keeping trolls/spam out, making sure people are abiding by the rules of the forum and generally keeping the conversation in a direction relevant to the initial post. Of which he does really non of that. I might have to read the forum terms finally.
I defended him today because for once in a blue-moon I agreed with him, and also I'm getting a little tired of people turning this forum into a witch-hunt if one person shows the slightest sign of contrary thought. well, that and the threatening and generally tact-less comments directed towards contrary thoughts. Not everyone has to agree, hold-hands and sing kumbaya.
I like how Tallest is composing essay after fucking essay, wasting hours of his time arguing against everyone on this board that Apple will never produce something that is almost certainly going to be unveiled within 2 months. I can't think of anything more pointless.
Here is the thing I don't get about tallest skil. he admitted he doesn't have an iPhone. (Not counting a freebie 1st gen he won) and I believe he said he doesn't have an iPad either. I wonder if he even has a Mac? For someone that doesn't use an iPhone or iPad on a regular basis like most of us here (myself included) I find it laughable how he can have such strong opinions about what Apple should or should not make. He got furious because I used the term iPhone 5 which I found ridiculous since everyone easily understands that term and what it means. Seriously though, for someone that really doesn't even seem to use Apple products he sure has some pretty strong opinions. It is fine to have strong opinions, but don't call people that disagree with you idiots and use your power as mod to threaten banning them when you so often go over the line yourself. How and why did AI choose him as a mod? Was he less trollike in the past?
There's nothing about the guy that makes any sense. He's 'content' with his 1st gen iPhone (threatened to stay with it forever if the next iPhone is called '5') and don't think he owns any semi-recent Apple hardware. He doesn't care enough about any innovation or product Apple has made in the last few years to actually buy something. Yet he posts as if he speaks for the majority of consumers and people who buy Apple products, and knows so confidently whats best for them as well as Apple, mocking others for not sharing his infinitely insight on what Aplple will or will not do (about which he always turns out to be wrong) It's fascinating, in a scary, pathetic sort of way.
Comments
Dear Dasanman69,
Apple has cared about market share from Day One, and your not kidding your jus . . . . .
I have listened to interviews and presentations of Steve Job's discuss Mac's market share over the years
and Tim Cook discuss the iPhone's share of the world's market share and especially in China.
Apple needs an entry level product in the tablet market, iPad 2's are still too costly for many consumers when they see other $199 tablets on the market.
Apple has addressed the entry level issue in the phone market by continuing to sell the iPhone 3GS, a three year old phone that by today's standards is an inferior product. An inexpensive 7" tablet would be perfect for those consumers who might buy any other $199 tablet.
It's all about bringing in new customers, whom one day might buy a Mac or a larger more expensive iPad and so forth. In other words maintaining or increasing market share.
Originally Posted by jkichline
Worst case scenario is no 3G or no 4G. Most people don't care and don't use it anyway.
That's a bit of a dangerous thing to say. I'm the one who is supposed to be "completely ignoring a subset of the userbase".
Do you have some really, really reliable source where you've gotten that information?
Nothing more reliable than all these people saying it's happening at all, of course.
Cost: The new product will be less than the iPad 2 and the iPad 2 will most like stop being produced, or will maintain the $399 mark. I think you are assuming that technology does not change. Apple can produce a product that weighs less, is thinner, offers the same user experience if not better, updates all the ports and sensors and hits the same, if not cheaper price point.
Aside from the user experience, I'll grant you that everything else happens naturally over time. Whether it's actually possible to do (and whether it's a good idea to do) all at once right now is left to be seen.
If you do a lot of typing, get a keyboard…
I'll grant you that this is a partially valid rebuttal. However, then that's just one more thing to be carrying around, larger than the device itself, which means you may as well get the version large enough to type on in the first place.
What you are also discounting is using this device to control a second screen with enhanced AirPlay, etc.
Hmm. … Hmm. Not sure where you're headed with that, but it could be interesting.
Originally Posted by paxman
Like so many here declared the iPhone and the iPad few short years ago.
Would you buy an iPhone without data and apps? Or, rather, one with a 2.5" screen? Remember, this is Apple. You want to compare me to the people that saw problems with the size/operation of the iPhone/iPad, but I was one of the ones fighting to show that the size/operation was right! Remember, this is… ugh, I said that already. That makes me really depressed… They spent years with these things. They chose the sizes, physical and screen, that they did because they felt they were the most right, and the public has responded in a way that shows Apple's accuracy.
I wonder… and if this does not attach properly, or if it does, I'm going to transcribe it below anyway.
Regarding the infamous "sandpaper" comment. I've recently read many posts where people believe Jobs was talking about marketing successfully with this. He was not. He specifically stated that the size of the screen on 7" tablets… the physical size of the screen, not the resolution (though he does mention it), is insufficient to create "great tablet apps". He goes on, then, to reiterate this and expand on it by stating that the 10" screen size is the minimum they believe is require to do that.
I'm not saying Apple can't change their minds, particularly since he's gone. I'm not saying Apple was wrong then, or that they thought they weren't. If post-Jobs Apple has come up with a way to get around that, they're certainly welcome (read: going) to try it, regardless of what that means. But it wasn't just Steve that did the research into the tablet screen sizes. It wasn't just Steve for whom everything went. There would have been a consensus at Apple that smaller screens don't work, otherwise they very well WOULD have released a smaller iPad in 2010!
One of the only things people complained about was the weight of the first-gen iPad; I imagine Apple would have loved to shave that down! And they have, in subsequent models. And they'll keep doing that. While I don't see how people who complain about the weight of an iPad have ever held a book before, I completely understand and agree with them in their drive to make it weigh less. Indeed, it weighing less will be the key to the use of the larger iPads that will dominate the future. But of everything else, that's one of the only good explanations I've seen for a smaller iPad, and it's just something that will naturally improve over time (wow, I get to use that out of the iPhone patent context…) with iPad (and all tech) development as a whole.
Okay, transcript time, and thank heavens it's already written out.
Originally posted by Steve Jobs, Apple Q4 2010 Earnings Conference Call
Second, I'd like to comment on the avalanche of tablets poised to enter the market in the coming months.
First, it appears to be just a handful of credible entrance not exactly in avalanche. Second, almost all of them use 7-inch screen as compared to iPad and your 10-inch screen, let's start there.
One naturally thinks that a 7-inch screen would offer 70% of the benefits by the 10-inch screen. Unfortunately, this is far from the truth. The screen measurements are diagonal, so that a 7-inch screen is only 45% as large as iPad's 10-inch screen. You heard me right, just 45% as large. If you take an iPad and hold it up right in portrait view and draw an imaginary horizontal line halfway down the screen, the screens on 7-inch tablets are a bit smaller than the bottom half of the iPad display.
This size isn't sufficient to create great tablet apps, in our opinion. While one could increase the resolution of the display to make up for some of difference, it is meaningless unless your tablet also includes sandpaper, so that the user can sand down their fingers to around one quarter of their present size. Apple has done extensive user testing on touch interfaces over many years and we really understand this stuff. There are clear limits of how close you can physically place elements on a touchscreen before users cannot reliably tap, flick or pinch them. This is one of the key reasons we think the 10 inch screen size is the minimum size required to create great tablet app.
Third, every tablet user is also a smartphone user. No tablet can compete with the mobility of a smartphone. It's ease of fitting into your pocket or purse. It's unobtrusiveness when used in a crowd.
Given that all tablet users will already have smartphone in their pockets, giving up precious display area to fit a tablet in their pockets is clearly the wrong tradeoff. The 7-inch tablets, or Tweeners, too big to compete with a smartphone and too small to compete with an iPad.
Emphasis, showing he was not talking about simply marketing, but rather the physical size, usability and experience itself, mine.
Actual audio below (it's a zip because the forum won't let us upload M4A directly), hopefully that works for everyone:
Originally Posted by antkm1
If they start this off at $199...mark my words it will cannibalize the IPad 3 by at least 50-75% this Holiday season. It will be THE GIFT to buy.
Edit: And that kind of scares me. Because despite what people say, the 10" iPad will take a huge hit for no other reason than price. When it all comes down to it...the average consumer will 100% of the time choose price and sacrifice usability. All we will hear is, "yeah, I went or the 7" because it was cheaper, I dont need the bigger screen anyway, this is just as good and sooo much cheaper".
And see, here's the thing about that: they're wrong. They're always wrong. That's exactly what is happening with all manner of Android tablets now! There are literally $70 7" tablets in Big Lots' around the country. SEVENTY dollars. People certainly don't think they need the larger screen. People certainly think it's "just as good". People certainly buy it just because it's cheaper. And you and I and everyone else here would be in complete agreement that they're wrong about that.
With a smaller iPad, it's my belief that we'd see the exact same thing, only now the criticism and poor reviews would be toward an Apple product, not a third-party one.
Also, I saw your report, of course, and I wish to clarify that I mean absolutely no disrespect toward nor wish to diminish the hardships through which people with depression go. I've certainly felt help-/hopeless and have experienced true depression in even the very recent past, but it is my personal belief that a sentient being should never wish itself gone and that doing so is a far greater failure than any operational stumble causing depression.
Quote:
Originally Posted by paxman
Like the 11" mba over the 13" mba, and 13"mbp over the 15"mbp?
I'd have to see the numbers, but I'm pretty certain the 13" MBP is the best selling MB model. It might now be overtaken by the 13" Air...don't know the current facts.
Another good comparison is when the iPod Mini, then Nano, the standard iPod (now the "Classic") became almost obsolete, if it weren't for it's massive storage capabilities.
Edit: let me also add that I think comparing cannibalization of the iPad to the Macbook line is kind of disproportionate because the overall price levels are greater.
I think you see less cannibalization in the Macbook line because when you look at a purchase over a certain amount (let's say $999) value becomes more important than price.
When you're talking about spending $500 compared to $200, then Price becomes a much bigger factor.
It's odd to round up for a value that ends in .7 and odd to round down for one that ends in .85. They both should be rounded up for the obvious reason. The only reason we were ever saying a 7" iPad was because there were 7" tablets trying to compete with the iPad, but this would be an 8" iPad at that size.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
You know I often disagree with you, and you and I have had our share of heated debates, but I have to show my support of your thoughts about the iPad Mini. Not only because you're getting beat-up a bit, but because i honestly agree with you.
Additionally, It really irks me when people on this forum go overboard with the heated rebuttals. And there are some comments on this thread that really go too far (of one in particular has been reported). Wishing someone ill-will should NEVER come into play on a public forum. You know people, you can have a civil debate without being offensive or tactless. No one should be personally attached for having an opinion.
Now I don't 100% agree with your arguments on the iPad mini (gosh I really hope they don't call it that), but you have my support.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
It's odd to round up for a value that ends in .7 and odd to round down for one that ends in .85. They both should be rounded up for the obvious reason. The only reason we were ever saying a 7" iPad was because there were 7" tablets trying to compete with the iPad, but this would be an 8" iPad at that size.
exactly my point. pick a direction to round. I'm sure i'm not the first to notice the inconsistent rounding when referencing the sizes but I'm surprised i haven't seen the argument before. Yeah, and they round-down on the Macbook screen sizes, even though the 11" air is 11.6" they still round down.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
I don't understand; Apple doesn't make products for people who want to get things done?
Yes, you don't understand.
Originally Posted by antkm1
You know I often disagree with you, and you and I have had our share of heated debates, but I have to show my support of your thoughts about the iPad Mini. Not only because you're getting beat-up a bit, but because i honestly agree with you.
Additionally, It really irks me when people on this forum go overboard with the heated rebuttals. And there are some comments on this thread that really go too far (of one in particular has been reported). Wishing someone ill-will should NEVER come into play on a public forum. You know people, you can have a civil debate without being offensive or tactless. No one should be personally attached for having an opinion.
Now I don't 100% agree with your arguments on the iPad mini (gosh I really hope they don't call it that), but you have my support.
Thank you very much! And yes, things can get pretty heated around here. I know I've certainly been courser than I would've wished at times. Though not an excuse for one's own actions, I sometimes like to go read a thread or two in PoliticalOutsider to get a sense of scale. Occasionally I think that if all voters were as vocal as on that subforum, we'd have a civil war at every election.
Should it exist, iPad mini seems like the most likely name (to me, at least), and Apple has shown no aversion to bringing back the past (iBook and iBooks, though they're different markets now). Maybe iPad nano, and while that certainly seems a little silly, it would cut out all talk of "a smaller iPad mini". Just… not "iPad Air"…
As I noted in my edited previous post, I think they should take a note from the Macbook nomenclature and just put the size as the suffix. iPad 10", iPad 8" or however you'd like to round it. That would be more the Apple thing to do IMO.
Sigh...but "mini" might differentiate it more. So "mini" might just be used (not only since it's already being and has been used) to market the distinct difference in user experience, as to possibly avert the inevitable cannibalization that will occur.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Siri.
Ok, here's where we differ. to me, Siri has yet to prove itself viable as being a better alternative to anything the user couldn't already do. I'd only argue for dictation, but that's not even Siri really. And I strongly disagree to having an Siri-infused ATV or iPod...rubbish. The tech is just not there yet, and would be really annoying in those cases if it were the only option. And I really don't see a universal advantage for the iPod line. I think it was proof when they released the button-less iPod Shuffle, the one that totally bombed. iPods (meaning dedicated audio/video devices) need tactile feedback, eyes-free.
It should have been called a "hobby", not a "beta". Maybe it's where I live, but literally everyone I know has pretty much stopped using Siri for anything but voice dictation. At least since January of this year. Every time I ask why..."it always tells me it can't understand, or can't connect with the server or try again later or some other excuse".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Would you buy an iPhone without data and apps? Or, rather, one with a 2.5" screen? Remember, this is Apple. You want to compare me to the people that saw problems with the size/operation of the iPhone/iPad, but I was one of the ones fighting to show that the size/operation was right! Remember, this is… ugh, I said that already. That makes me really depressed… They spent years with these things. They chose the sizes, physical and screen, that they did because they felt they were the most right, and the public has responded in a way that shows Apple's accuracy.
I wonder… and if this does not attach properly, or if it does, I'm going to transcribe it below anyway....
.....
I am not quoting the rest because it is so long and trust anyone interested will read your post above
I am not disputing what Steve Jobs said and the work Apple put into the original iPad. And I am not disputing the 10" is the optimal size. ... THEN...
It is only a short time ago but things have really changed. The market has matured, people have spent much time with tablets and become used to them. What was 100% true only a few years ago may not be as true now. There are more shades of gray. Nothing is ever fixed in stone. The 11" Air is really the new 13" MB, and it is great. I use one frequently. I use an iPad also and I find it BIG for a lot of tasks. By the same measure I find my iPhone too small. My kids use iPads for gaming and I know for a fact that the iPad would often be too big for them, yet they would LOVE a larger iPod Touch. I can easily imagine a 7"+ device. I can even see it as a wide screen device. Flip it horizontal and it will be wide enough to read most websites and documents fine, though I doubt people who need to do those two things a lot will opt for the smaller device even if it is half the price.
ANTKM1 worries about cannibalization but I don't think it will be a major factor. I think it will happen but this will easily be balanced out by the increase in devices sold. Mots people over 40/50 will prefer a larger device. People who use it professionally wil prefer the larger screen. For education I really don't know I imagine it will be split. Gamers will definitely go nuts for the smaller size as will parents buying their kids a first device. Readers and people who want a quick 'go to' super portable device will love the smaller size and many many people will have both in their house. Its a win win the way I see it. Its an expansion of the market and there is definitely room for it. There are several laptop sizes and several monitor sizes out there. For Apple to fit in a size between 4" and 10" makes total sense. Not then, but now.
So no matter what Steve Jobs said then, and I am willing to concede that he was absolutely right at the time, I think the world has evolved and there is a massive market share waiting for Apple. One other point - When Steve said what he said, did he really imagine the breadth of the App and accessory market? Am 7"+ iPad will be amazing as a controller, a car device, a travelling guide, a music controller, a camera, etc etc.
I really don't see it as an inferior product by any measure. I see it as hands down awesome.... if Apple chooses to release it.
Oh, and the name will be iPad Mini whether it is infact a larger iPod or smaller iPad. Its just a better name and that's how people will see it - a small iPad.
I love my iPad and it is the one best things ever created in my opinion but a 7.8in iPad is more convenient for us to carry around than the 10in one.
I don't know about you many of us have a knapsack to carry our stuffs and can easily slip one in, er, the purse is not necessary.
Whatever is your opinion you are entitled to one.
I may buy one if the price is right but aiming for the iPad 4.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mstone
So all the people, like myself, who use an iPad on their lap propped up at a comfortable angle with one hand while typing hunt and peck style with the other are suddenly not going to be able to use an iPad mini. I am just guessing here, but I bet most people don't touch type with two hands on an iPad and typing with two thumbs is mostly a style suited for iPhone.
I have been quickly figuring out that typing on the iPad or iPhone with two hands/thumbs will not only be faster, but more accurate.
It's been a really annoying discovery that the faster you "hunt and peck" with one hand/finger on these devices, the more mistakes you'll make, and sometimes (mostly) it's not your fault but the software.
I started realizing that the software was intentionally leaving typed characters out of my words when typing quickly with one finger. and it's my tested theory that the software thinks you are accidentally typing too many keys and it defaults to the 2nd or sometimes the 3rd typed character depending on how fast you type.
For example, words like "the" when typed too quickly with on finger will result in "he". BUT this scenario does not occur when using 2 hands/thumbs.
Sort of a tangential comments but adds to the argument that a 7.85" iPad might have a slightly less-usable experience.
Quote:
Originally Posted by AdamC
I love my iPad and it is the one best things ever created in my opinion but a 7.8in iPad is more convenient for us to carry around than the 10in one.
I don't know about you many of us have a knapsack to carry our stuffs and can easily slip one in, er, the purse is not necessary.
Whatever is your opinion you are entitled to one.
I may buy one if the price is right but aiming for the iPad 4.
I have to disagree, I think a 7.85" iPad is no more portable than a 9.7" iPad. Cargo Pants/shorts or not, Purse or not, you will need some kind of carrying accessory for this device. And if you will need a carrying accessory, it makes no difference if the device is 7.85" or 9.7". Many purses and "European Carry-Alls" will easily fit the current iPad. Sure maybe not a clutch purse but most standard one's will fit the current iPad. In the case of cargo pants...just try to sit down with that device in a pocket that orients 90 degrees perpendicular to a seat and get back to me.
Here is the thing I don't get about tallest skil. he admitted he doesn't have an iPhone. (Not counting a freebie 1st gen he won) and I believe he said he doesn't have an iPad either. I wonder if he even has a Mac? For someone that doesn't use an iPhone or iPad on a regular basis like most of us here (myself included) I find it laughable how he can have such strong opinions about what Apple should or should not make. He got furious because I used the term iPhone 5 which I found ridiculous since everyone easily understands that term and what it means. Seriously though, for someone that really doesn't even seem to use Apple products he sure has some pretty strong opinions. It is fine to have strong opinions, but don't call people that disagree with you idiots and use your power as mod to threaten banning them when you so often go over the line yourself. How and why did AI choose him as a mod? Was he less trollike in the past?
Apple has always canabiloze their own products as they did the iPod with iPhones. What a 7" iPad gives them is the dominance of tablets which they lost in the phones arena and also a cheap tab,et for schools. The iPad 3 will sold less I agree but the iPad mini will sell VERY well which will more than make up the loses IMHO...
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwmac
Here is the thing I don't get about tallest skil. he admitted he doesn't have an iPhone. (Not counting a freebie 1st gen he won) and I believe he said he doesn't have an iPad either. I wonder if he even has a Mac? For someone that doesn't use an iPhone or iPad on a regular basis like most of us here (myself included) I find it laughable how he can have such strong opinions about what Apple should or should not make. He got furious because I used the term iPhone 5 which I found ridiculous since everyone easily understands that term and what it means. Seriously though, for someone that really doesn't even seem to use Apple products he sure has some pretty strong opinions. It is fine to have strong opinions, but don't call people that disagree with you idiots and use your power as mod to threaten banning them when you so often go over the line yourself. How and why did AI choose him as a mod? Was he less trollike in the past?
I don't know his history and you're older on the forum with fewer posts, so I commend you for that. All I know is that i never thought moderators had the right to even post personal opinions on forums, they are solely responsible for keeping trolls/spam out, making sure people are abiding by the rules of the forum and generally keeping the conversation in a direction relevant to the initial post. Of which he does really non of that. I might have to read the forum terms finally.
I defended him today because for once in a blue-moon I agreed with him, and also I'm getting a little tired of people turning this forum into a witch-hunt if one person shows the slightest sign of contrary thought. well, that and the threatening and generally tact-less comments directed towards contrary thoughts. Not everyone has to agree, hold-hands and sing kumbaya.
I like how Tallest is composing essay after fucking essay, wasting hours of his time arguing against everyone on this board that Apple will never produce something that is almost certainly going to be unveiled within 2 months. I can't think of anything more pointless.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwmac
Here is the thing I don't get about tallest skil. he admitted he doesn't have an iPhone. (Not counting a freebie 1st gen he won) and I believe he said he doesn't have an iPad either. I wonder if he even has a Mac? For someone that doesn't use an iPhone or iPad on a regular basis like most of us here (myself included) I find it laughable how he can have such strong opinions about what Apple should or should not make. He got furious because I used the term iPhone 5 which I found ridiculous since everyone easily understands that term and what it means. Seriously though, for someone that really doesn't even seem to use Apple products he sure has some pretty strong opinions. It is fine to have strong opinions, but don't call people that disagree with you idiots and use your power as mod to threaten banning them when you so often go over the line yourself. How and why did AI choose him as a mod? Was he less trollike in the past?
There's nothing about the guy that makes any sense. He's 'content' with his 1st gen iPhone (threatened to stay with it forever if the next iPhone is called '5') and don't think he owns any semi-recent Apple hardware. He doesn't care enough about any innovation or product Apple has made in the last few years to actually buy something. Yet he posts as if he speaks for the majority of consumers and people who buy Apple products, and knows so confidently whats best for them as well as Apple, mocking others for not sharing his infinitely insight on what Aplple will or will not do (about which he always turns out to be wrong) It's fascinating, in a scary, pathetic sort of way.