If they start this off at $199...mark my words it will cannibalize the IPad 3 by at least 50-75% this Holiday season. It will be THE GIFT to buy.
Apple will make a decent profit on the iPad Mini... or else they won't offer it at all. So it won't hurt them if the iPad Mini becomes the hot seller at Christmas instead of the iPad 3.
And let's be honest... the iPad 3 at $500 is a very expensive gift.
Edit: And that kind of scares me. Because despite what people say, the 10" iPad will take a huge hit for no other reason than price. When it all comes down to it...the average consumer will 100% of the time choose price and sacrifice usability. All we will hear is, "yeah, I went or the 7" because it was cheaper, I dont need the bigger screen anyway, this is just as good and sooo much cheaper".
If price is the biggest factor... why isn't the cheaper iPad 2 outselling the iPad 3? I haven't heard anything about that if it is. People must be drawn in by the new low price of the iPad 2... and then they end up getting the iPad 3 because of the beautiful Retina screen.
But I still think Apple should have a lower priced offering.... here's an interesting article on the matter: Apple Price Umbrella
So here's how I think it will go:
$300 for the iPad Mini
$400 for the bigger iPad 2
$500 for the Retina iPad
Remember... Apple is the king of the upsell. How many times do people walk into the store with a certain Apple product and price in mind... but walk out with the upgraded model?
I noticed this when I was pricing the Macbook Air:
$1000 gets you in the door for an 11" Macbook Air 64GB
$1100 doubles the SSD to 128GB
$1200 for 128GB and a bigger 13" screen
Dammit... you went in to spend $1000 but ended up spending $1200. Apple makes it nearly impossible to stick with the base model. Hell... look at the iPod Touch. You'd be a fool to buy the 8GB for $200 when you can get 4 TIMES the storage for only $100 more.
So maybe that's how it will go. Apple might gamble on the fact that most people will just go ahead and get the bigger iPad 2 instead of the iPad Mini.
$300 gets you in the door for the iPad Mini.... but Apple dangles the bigger iPad 2 in front of your face for only $100 more. And another $100 for the Retina iPad.
But even if people do buy the iPad Mini... Apple still makes a profit on it. And it gets the customer into the iPad ecosystem (and away from those other tablets).
Who knows... the next time around they might buy another iPad (maybe a more expensive one). Apple loves repeat customers.
And then there's another thing... there might be people who actually want a smaller iPad. We don't know yet.
But we do know that Apple has had multiples models and price points in almost all of their product lines.
You can get iPods from $50 to $400.... laptops from $1000 to $3700... desktops from $1200 to $3300... phones from "free" to $850
A smaller iPad would be worse at everything the iPad can do. Lower resolution, shorter battery life, slower processor, worse graphics, gimped connectivity, and we're hearing it might have a plastic back. The only benefit, if you can call it that, is that it's smaller. Big whoop.
People say, 'portability'. You can't put this thing in a pocket. You have to carry it around in a hand, just like you would a regular iPad, only this one is so small that it barely justifies carrying it around in that manner. "So they put it in their purse," they say. So Apple's supposed to make a product only for women? I mean no disrespect to men who carry purses, but come on. That's not a valid reason to make a product.
People say, 'cost'. That's why the iPad 2 is still for sale. In seven more months, the iPad 2 will be $299. That kills every other tablet on the market right now, even more so than the 70+% shipment and 95% use of the iPad over other tablets already does. Cost is the reason the iPhone 4 and 3GS are still for sale. They fill the low-end gap that the "iPhone nano" was imagined to fill without making compromises in the way of features like a smaller simultaneous iPad would.
People say, 'usability'. I say, "Yes, lessened." Size-wise it comes out to, what, about half the size of the iPad. Cut an iPad in half and that's about what a 7" one would be, right? And let's assume the "thinner side bezel" bit is true. That drops at least one way of holding it in landscape and nearly every comfortable way in portrait. But even if there's a uniform bezel, it's going to be just large enough to not be graspable (not holdable, graspable) with a single hand. The size (specifically width) makes it psychologically close enough to a phone that people'll desire to hold it like one. And when they can't, there'll be trouble. And this whole bit has just been about hardware; imagine the keyboard on this thing. No ten finger typing for anyone, no sir. Not even children.
Lower resolution is offset by smaller size, at least as far as PPI goes. Yes you'll be panning and zooming more, but so what, I don't mind. The graphics could theoretically be superior, as if it has the same A5X as the iPad 3 - and there's no real reason not to, given that the Tegra 3 in the Nexus 7 is as powerful as the A5X - then with 4x fewer pixels to render that would make for much nicer frame rates. Gimped connectivity? No more so than the iPhone 5 with the same new dock, and you can bet the iPad 4 will have the new dock too. Plastic backs weigh less and are more grippy - see the Nexus 7, it has a great back.
Portability is a huge issue. I see lots of people with Kindles on trains, as they're so tiny and weigh virtually nothing. Size does matter. The iPad is just too big and heavy to lug around for some people. If you're fine carrying it around, well bully for you.
Cost is the single most important issue. The Nexus 7 is priced right, and has set the standard. That you can get a high end tablet with a high PPI screen for £160 is astounding. Competition works, who'd of thought it!
Usability depends on what you want from a tablet. If you want to read books, then something that is small and light, but still big enough to see a decent amount of text makes a lot of sense. If you want Facebook or twitter the same applies. If you want to read the web, a bigger tablet makes sense. If you want to play games, personally I find the iPad too big to hold for extended play, but that may just be me. For video, bigger = better. And so on. Both have their pros and cons.
Your point is? Since when has Apple cared about market share? Did they make a cheap net book to counter the ones flooding the market? Have they lowered the price of Macs to compete with PCs? No. None of their product lines have ever been a response to what the competition is doing. Why start now? A smaller iPad will cannibalize sales of the current iPad.
Don't fool yourself. Apple cares about market share. Apple has always cared about market share.
It is true, however, that Apple will not sell a POS product simply to gain market share. They remain true to their quality ideals and do their best to never ship crap. But there's no reason why a 7" iPad has to be crap. They manage to make a pretty good 3.5" phone, so why can't they made a decent tablet with 4 times the area?
Cannibalization? I don't think so - at least not much. People who can afford an iPad will buy an iPad. The iPad 2 is only $100 over my guess for the Mini's price.
If they start this off at $199...mark my words it will cannibalize the IPad 3 by at least 50-75% this Holiday season. It will be THE GIFT to buy.
Edit: And that kind of scares me. Because despite what people say, the 10" iPad will take a huge hit for no other reason than price. When it all comes down to it...the average consumer will 100% of the time choose price and sacrifice usability. All we will hear is, "yeah, I went or the 7" because it was cheaper, I dont need the bigger screen anyway, this is just as good and sooo much cheaper".
You might as well get $199 out of your head. I don't see any way it's going to happen. $249 is the lowest it could possibly be, with $299 being much more likely. I'd bet $299 iPad Mini, $399 iPad 2, $499 iPad 3 (with the price points remaining constant and new generations simply moving down the ladder each year). When iPad Mini 2 comes out next year, they might drop iPad Mini 1 to $249.
That said, I don't think it's going to hurt the iPad 3 as much as you apparently do. While the iPad 2 is apparently still selling well, the iPad 3 is setting records. It seems that the majority of people are willing to pay the extra $100 for the iPad 3. It seems to me that the majority of people who would buy an iPad Mini would not have bought the iPad 3, anyway - either for size or cost reasons. Apple would absolutely destroy the Android tablet market (at least, the name brand ones - it probably won't have much effect on the $79 cheap ones) but will continue to sell millions of the iPad 3 models.
You are wrong. It is not a terrible idea - it is a great idea. You are simply feeding your own prejudice by being locked into a position. You need to learn to brainstorm and open up to possibilities. I'd wager you are not employed in any kind of creative work. You speak with certainty but I doubt if anyone here cant see that its just chest beating bull. You are certain it will be a useless product? Really? Like so many here declared the iPhone and the iPad few short years ago.
Yes, it's funny how TS refuses to hear all the people here who disagree with him and insists that he's right in spite of all evidence to the contrary. To make it even more obvious, a large percentage of the people here are geeks who will always want the best, so if this group is asking for a 7" iPad, the demand must really be there.
It's particularly interesting how he can't see the possibility of having two sizes of an iPad when most of Apple's other products come in multiple sizes. He can't see any portability benefits for a device that's half the size (everyone must carry coffee table books - no one would ever consider carrying a paperback book). He can't even see that a 7" device is cheaper to make and could sell for less than a 10" device.
Again, I just can't wait for his kids to start begging for an iPad Mini.
This is the cheap t,et that will get apple the education market finally. Kids will grow up with apple and books will finally become digitize on our schools...
Whatever Apple does in the next while, surely there is going to be some sort of logic applied to the product mix as a whole. If the Nano is effectively transformed into something akin to the current Touch and this rumoured iPad Mini will be priced identically to the current Touch, and there is going to be a new Touch, I have say that this is a ridiculous mess.
I still say the way to go would be to upgrade the Nano to step into some of the void left by making the Touch larger but by larger, I'm not talking 7.85 inches. What Apple needs, instead, is more along the lines of a five-inch Touch, hence eliminating the need for a so-called iPad Mini. I envision a Touch that is priced the same as the current model yet is a little larger than the upcomng iPhone but not so much as to make it impractical to pocket. Those claiming that a 7.85-inch tablet could be regarded as a pocketable device are way off. Having one of those sticking out your back pocket would look rather bizarre.
If instead we get a Touch-like Nano, an iPad Mini priced like a Touch, and to top it off a new Touch, priced like Mini, seriously, doesn't anyone else see the problem with that arrangement?
So what is a realistic cost for this rumoured iPad mini? I've seen many values thrown out that [I]feel[/I] right — and Apple may have used something like that as a target for bringing this device to market — but they also need to use components that allow for cost to work.
How much would that display cost if they are using the same 163 PPI panel, but with IPS over TN, that they invested in more than a half decade earlier? They are likely shutting down the 3GS sales for most if not all markets next month so they will have the equipment and may not even have to invest in additional production costs. They've surely worked out all the bugs by now.
Would they uses the latest ARM chips because they are lower power and therefore would cut down on the battery size for a given duration thereby increasing the usability by decreasing the weight, or would they use the older chips because they are cheaper? I'm thinking that 32nm is the most likely way to go here. But not an A6 chip but the A5 that is currently in the iPad 2's that came after the iPad (3) release. I think that is the perfect chip for this inexpensive tablet. Keep it at 1GHz. Keep the GPU the same. Keep most or all of the ASIC the same, just at 32nm. AnandTech has tested this revised iPad 2 and the battery life savings are immense.
What about cellular? While it certainly makes sense to use cellular in a smaller device I'm thinking it's cost, space and battery life prohibitive. There are currently no 7" tablets that are selling with cellular so I'm going to have to guess it won't happen. One cold argue that you could tether to your phone but I'd counter by saying that is a kludge. In fact, I hate the way Apple has set that up. If I tether my Mac to my iPad and close my MBP's lid and reopen it I have to then turn off Personal Hotspot and then turn it back on for my MBP to see it again so I can connect. Why isn't think automatic?!
Personally, I think the weigh is a primary focus for this design. It needs to be so light that it's in the Kindle weight range. But remember this is an 8" device, not 7" which means considerably more display area. It's also Apple so we're talking glass and likely a metal back.
Now, I can see Apple including the in-cell tech and GG2 to reduce the weight and thickness of this device even if it does cost a little more. I think Apple's mindset cares more about these things than a slight increase in profits. Because of this I think we might see a plastic back or a much cheaper metal backing. Something that is very light. I also think the thin bezel on the long sides of the display could be possible only because they could add unnecessary bulk to the device. Again, I think the weight is a primary concern.
Have you ever had childen complaining that the current iPad is unusable.
I keep hearing this argument but it's not children who find the iPad, as is not to their liking. They like it just fine, thank you, based on what I 've witnessed.
Apple has always canabiloze their own products as they did the iPod with iPhones. What a 7" iPad gives them is the dominance of tablets which they lost in the phones arena and also a cheap tab,et for schools. The iPad 3 will sold less I agree but the iPad mini will sell VERY well which will more than make up the loses IMHO...
But with the iPhone they got people to buy a more expensive device, with the iPad mini people will be buying a less expensive device just for market share or to get more people into the ecosystem, sounds very Amazonish.
But with the iPhone they got people to buy a more expensive device, with the iPad mini people will be buying a less expensive device just for market share or to get more people into the ecosystem, sounds very Amazonish.
Right. Apple would never introduce the MacBook Air at a price lower than the MacBook Pro.
Apple would never introduce a lower priced 21" iMac to compete with the 27" iMac.
Apple would never sell a 13" MBP since it is less expensive than the 15".
Apple would never sell a single CPU Mac Pro since the dual CPU Mac Pro is better.
Have you ever had childen complaining that the current iPad is unusable.
I keep hearing this argument but it's not children who find the iPad, as is not to their liking. They like it just fine, thank you, based on what I 've witnessed.
That's a straw man argument. NO ONE said that the current iPad is unusable.
Instead, people are saying that the iPad is a great product and they could also offer a smaller version to appeal to even more people because of its smaller size and lower cost.
I don't understand; Apple doesn't make products for people who want to get things done?
OK, even though this is like having an argument with a cult member, who obviously isn't paying any attention to what you're saying, I'll play along.
Obviously both uses (work and non) happen on Macs by design and otherwise, so please don't take what I'm saying and imply that I'm claiming the other doesn't exist, as you did here. iTunes accounts for a certain chunk of many Apple users' time. Barely any "work gets done" if one is using iTunes. Same as facebook (which is now integrated into the system), same as many, many aspects of what Apple gives us. Therefore, to use the "how are you going to get any thing done on that thing" argument is folly, because it ignores that simply isn't a concern much of the time, especially on the small devices Apple has ALREADY sold, in countless shapes and models, for many years.
Ask any iPod user how much work they get done on it, or even if they bought it hoping to get work done on it. And why is a big iPod any dumber an idea than a small one?
Point is, there are many devices already in existence where the parameters of said device are exactly what you find wrong with the mini, and understand that I'm NOT talking about tablets necessarily. You keep applying your personal opinion and preferences as facts (problem 1) regarding exhibit A onto exhibit B (problem 2).
It's been a really annoying discovery that the faster you "hunt and peck" with one hand/finger on these devices, the more mistakes you'll make, and sometimes (mostly) it's not your fault but the software.
Exactly. I don't get why everyone seems to want a device designed for only hunt and peck. I thought the idea was to improve tech literacy.
Originally Posted by gwmac
For someone that doesn't use an iPhone or iPad on a regular basis like most of us here (myself included) I find it laughable how he can have such strong opinions about what Apple should or should not make.
I use them both daily.
He got furious…
Oh, you read far too much into words. I'm never angry.
…use your power as mod to threaten banning them when you so often go over the line yourself.
I have never done that to anyone because of their opinions. I will never do it. I've commented on it to trolls who, we would all agree, have no place here.
Originally Posted by Slurpy
I can't think of anything more pointless.
How about a hilarious vendetta against someone on the Internet because he's holding a parallel position to your own that happens to clash every once in a while?
"We're very much alike, you and I, Mr. Bond." The problem comes from when I disagree that absolutely every single product Apple has ever made or could ever be rumored to make will be a success simply because Apple made it. That's really it. You've much the same outlook on people that don't understand why Apple does what it does as I, and we're pretty close on our views on the future, if only that we have different interests and therefore have different foci.
Originally Posted by Slurpy
He doesn't care enough about any innovation or product Apple has made in the last few years to actually buy something.
Of course I don't. You caught me. This is obviously true.
(about which he always turns out to be wrong)
Aw, now, don't fall down into blatant lies. It'll ruin your credibility.
It's fascinating, in a scary, pathetic sort of way.
See my comment above re: vendettas.
Originally Posted by jragosta
Yes, it's funny how TS refuses to hear all the people here who disagree with him…
If by that you mean, "you refuse to read my posts where I've responded to those with whom I disagree," then yes, you're correct. :broken_confused_emoticon:
To make it even more obvious, a large percentage of the people here are geeks who will always want the best, so if this group is asking for a 7" iPad, the demand must really be there.
To make it even more obvious, this forum represents all manner of fringe groups and the actual market, the 95% of actual tablet users that are buying the current size of iPad over all other sizes of tablet, are the metric against which we should be gauging things. The xMac is a fringe group. Matte display users are a fringe group. iPhone nano is a fringe group. You can't even say that "the market for a 7" tablet is even larger than existing tablets buyers; they're just waiting for an Apple tablet," because that's nonsense. WE'RE the ones that wait for Apple versions. Regular people would just buy what is out now if they saw something that fit with what they thought they wanted. And when/if it didn't, they'd get rid of it, return it, or stop using it. That's reflected in the tablet use marketshare we're seeing.
He can't even see that a 7" device is cheaper to make and could sell for less than a 10" device.
When all you can do is lie, it doesn't really help the argument… I've never denied that it could sell for less.
Again, I just can't wait for his kids to start begging for an iPad Mini.
I'll never have kids. And I've not heard of anyone's actually wanting a smaller iPad. Do you have a link with even a study of 500 kids wanting smaller tablets?
Right. Apple would never introduce the MacBook Air at a price lower than the MacBook Pro.
Apple would never introduce a lower priced 21" iMac to compete with the 27" iMac.
Apple would never sell a 13" MBP since it is less expensive than the 15".
Apple would never sell a single CPU Mac Pro since the dual CPU Mac Pro is better.
Oh, wait......
That's a straw man argument. NO ONE said that the current iPad is unusable.
Instead, people are saying that the iPad is a great product and they could also offer a smaller version to appeal to even more people because of its smaller size and lower cost.
Yes they did but to offer more options but not because of a response to what other companies were doing. SJ was pretty adamant about the current size being ideal. How much cheaper do you really think a smaller iPad is to make? It's gonna have to be made with a older processor and screen. Will it use scaled down iPad apps or scaled up iPhone apps. This would be a big step towards the fragmentation you always laugh at Android having. For the record I'm holding off buying a tablet just in case I am mistaken lol.
But with the iPhone they got people to buy a more expensive device, with the iPad mini people will be buying a less expensive device just for market share or to get more people into the ecosystem, sounds very Amazonish.
The way to see this move is to prevent android to get a pat of the tablet market basically instead of giving the low end to android now apple will have it and they will finally have a device for education at a reasonable price. Next school year will be the beginning of the digital book era at k-12 IMHO...
…giving the low end to android now apple will have it and they will finally have a device for education at a reasonable price.
Why isn't that the iPad 2 and iPad 3 next year? If they keep to their current hardware tiering, the iPad 2 will be the same price as a 7" one would be.
Yes they did but to offer more options but not because of a response to what other companies were doing. SJ was pretty adamant about the current size being ideal. How much cheaper do you really think a smaller iPad is to make? It's gonna have to be made with a older processor and screen. Will it use scaled down iPad apps or scaled up iPhone apps. This would be a big step towards the fragmentation you always laugh at Android having. For the record I'm holding off buying a tablet just in case I am mistaken lol.
Who says it's a response to what others are doing? It was reported here not that long ago that Jobs did NOT have a strong objection to a 7" tablet. His comments were largely marketing oriented.
The most likely scenario to me is that Apple had a smaller tablet in the back of their minds all along but decided to concentrate on one size to get the market moving and will add the smaller one on their own timetable.
To make it even more obvious, this forum represents all manner of fringe groups and the actual market, the 95% of actual tablet users that are buying the current size of iPad over all other sizes of tablet,
Not even close to being true.
Apple has something like 60-65% of the tablet market. The remaining 35-40% is almost all either 7" or 10". I don't have a breakdown, but everything I've seen myself is that a large fraction of the non-Apple tablets are 7" - like the Amazon Fire, for example. So something like 20+% of the tablet market is 7" - and that's even when there are no good 7" tablets. If Apple introduces one, they could capture a large chunk of that, plus the people who want 7" but don't have a good option.
Furthermore, your story keeps changing. Before, you were saying that they would sell OK, but that they're crap. Now you're saying that they're not going to sell.
The fact is that there's no doubt that Apple could produce a good 7-8" tablet. They make a 3.5" iPhone/iPod Touch and a 10" tablet and both are recognized as the best in the market. You haven't given a single reason why they can't make a good 8" tablet. All of your arguments (like "it's too small to type") are thoroughly debunked by the success of the iPhone/iPod Touch.
are the metric against which we should be gauging things. The xMac is a fringe group. Matte display users are a fringe group. iPhone nano is a fringe group. You can't even say that "the market for a 7" tablet is even larger than existing tablets buyers; they're just waiting for an Apple tablet," because that's nonsense. WE'RE the ones that wait for Apple versions. Regular people would just buy what is out now if they saw something that fit with what they thought they wanted. And when/if it didn't, they'd get rid of it, return it, or stop using it. That's reflected in the tablet use marketshare we're seeing.
When all you can do is lie, it doesn't really help the argument… I've never denied that it could sell for less.
I'll never have kids. And I've not heard of anyone's actually wanting a smaller iPad. Do you have a link with even a study of 500 kids wanting smaller tablets?
As usual, you're simply ignoring that a reasonable number of people here say that they'd buy a 7" iPad Mini. There's also the fact that a reasonable percentage of others already buy 7" tablets - even though the ones that are available today are crap.
Comments
This comment is totally out of line and disrespectful.
Apple will make a decent profit on the iPad Mini... or else they won't offer it at all. So it won't hurt them if the iPad Mini becomes the hot seller at Christmas instead of the iPad 3.
And let's be honest... the iPad 3 at $500 is a very expensive gift.
If price is the biggest factor... why isn't the cheaper iPad 2 outselling the iPad 3? I haven't heard anything about that if it is. People must be drawn in by the new low price of the iPad 2... and then they end up getting the iPad 3 because of the beautiful Retina screen.
But I still think Apple should have a lower priced offering.... here's an interesting article on the matter: Apple Price Umbrella
So here's how I think it will go:
$300 for the iPad Mini
$400 for the bigger iPad 2
$500 for the Retina iPad
Remember... Apple is the king of the upsell. How many times do people walk into the store with a certain Apple product and price in mind... but walk out with the upgraded model?
I noticed this when I was pricing the Macbook Air:
$1000 gets you in the door for an 11" Macbook Air 64GB
$1100 doubles the SSD to 128GB
$1200 for 128GB and a bigger 13" screen
Dammit... you went in to spend $1000 but ended up spending $1200. Apple makes it nearly impossible to stick with the base model. Hell... look at the iPod Touch. You'd be a fool to buy the 8GB for $200 when you can get 4 TIMES the storage for only $100 more.
So maybe that's how it will go. Apple might gamble on the fact that most people will just go ahead and get the bigger iPad 2 instead of the iPad Mini.
$300 gets you in the door for the iPad Mini.... but Apple dangles the bigger iPad 2 in front of your face for only $100 more. And another $100 for the Retina iPad.
But even if people do buy the iPad Mini... Apple still makes a profit on it. And it gets the customer into the iPad ecosystem (and away from those other tablets).
Who knows... the next time around they might buy another iPad (maybe a more expensive one). Apple loves repeat customers.
And then there's another thing... there might be people who actually want a smaller iPad. We don't know yet.
But we do know that Apple has had multiples models and price points in almost all of their product lines.
You can get iPods from $50 to $400.... laptops from $1000 to $3700... desktops from $1200 to $3300... phones from "free" to $850
I see no reason why the iPad must start at $400.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
A smaller iPad would be worse at everything the iPad can do. Lower resolution, shorter battery life, slower processor, worse graphics, gimped connectivity, and we're hearing it might have a plastic back. The only benefit, if you can call it that, is that it's smaller. Big whoop.
People say, 'portability'. You can't put this thing in a pocket. You have to carry it around in a hand, just like you would a regular iPad, only this one is so small that it barely justifies carrying it around in that manner. "So they put it in their purse," they say. So Apple's supposed to make a product only for women? I mean no disrespect to men who carry purses, but come on. That's not a valid reason to make a product.
People say, 'cost'. That's why the iPad 2 is still for sale. In seven more months, the iPad 2 will be $299. That kills every other tablet on the market right now, even more so than the 70+% shipment and 95% use of the iPad over other tablets already does. Cost is the reason the iPhone 4 and 3GS are still for sale. They fill the low-end gap that the "iPhone nano" was imagined to fill without making compromises in the way of features like a smaller simultaneous iPad would.
People say, 'usability'. I say, "Yes, lessened." Size-wise it comes out to, what, about half the size of the iPad. Cut an iPad in half and that's about what a 7" one would be, right? And let's assume the "thinner side bezel" bit is true. That drops at least one way of holding it in landscape and nearly every comfortable way in portrait. But even if there's a uniform bezel, it's going to be just large enough to not be graspable (not holdable, graspable) with a single hand. The size (specifically width) makes it psychologically close enough to a phone that people'll desire to hold it like one. And when they can't, there'll be trouble. And this whole bit has just been about hardware; imagine the keyboard on this thing. No ten finger typing for anyone, no sir. Not even children.
Lower resolution is offset by smaller size, at least as far as PPI goes. Yes you'll be panning and zooming more, but so what, I don't mind. The graphics could theoretically be superior, as if it has the same A5X as the iPad 3 - and there's no real reason not to, given that the Tegra 3 in the Nexus 7 is as powerful as the A5X - then with 4x fewer pixels to render that would make for much nicer frame rates. Gimped connectivity? No more so than the iPhone 5 with the same new dock, and you can bet the iPad 4 will have the new dock too. Plastic backs weigh less and are more grippy - see the Nexus 7, it has a great back.
Portability is a huge issue. I see lots of people with Kindles on trains, as they're so tiny and weigh virtually nothing. Size does matter. The iPad is just too big and heavy to lug around for some people. If you're fine carrying it around, well bully for you.
Cost is the single most important issue. The Nexus 7 is priced right, and has set the standard. That you can get a high end tablet with a high PPI screen for £160 is astounding. Competition works, who'd of thought it!
Usability depends on what you want from a tablet. If you want to read books, then something that is small and light, but still big enough to see a decent amount of text makes a lot of sense. If you want Facebook or twitter the same applies. If you want to read the web, a bigger tablet makes sense. If you want to play games, personally I find the iPad too big to hold for extended play, but that may just be me. For video, bigger = better. And so on. Both have their pros and cons.
Most of all I'll say this - CHOICE IS WONDERFUL.
Don't fool yourself. Apple cares about market share. Apple has always cared about market share.
It is true, however, that Apple will not sell a POS product simply to gain market share. They remain true to their quality ideals and do their best to never ship crap. But there's no reason why a 7" iPad has to be crap. They manage to make a pretty good 3.5" phone, so why can't they made a decent tablet with 4 times the area?
Cannibalization? I don't think so - at least not much. People who can afford an iPad will buy an iPad. The iPad 2 is only $100 over my guess for the Mini's price.
You might as well get $199 out of your head. I don't see any way it's going to happen. $249 is the lowest it could possibly be, with $299 being much more likely. I'd bet $299 iPad Mini, $399 iPad 2, $499 iPad 3 (with the price points remaining constant and new generations simply moving down the ladder each year). When iPad Mini 2 comes out next year, they might drop iPad Mini 1 to $249.
That said, I don't think it's going to hurt the iPad 3 as much as you apparently do. While the iPad 2 is apparently still selling well, the iPad 3 is setting records. It seems that the majority of people are willing to pay the extra $100 for the iPad 3. It seems to me that the majority of people who would buy an iPad Mini would not have bought the iPad 3, anyway - either for size or cost reasons. Apple would absolutely destroy the Android tablet market (at least, the name brand ones - it probably won't have much effect on the $79 cheap ones) but will continue to sell millions of the iPad 3 models.
Yes, it's funny how TS refuses to hear all the people here who disagree with him and insists that he's right in spite of all evidence to the contrary. To make it even more obvious, a large percentage of the people here are geeks who will always want the best, so if this group is asking for a 7" iPad, the demand must really be there.
It's particularly interesting how he can't see the possibility of having two sizes of an iPad when most of Apple's other products come in multiple sizes. He can't see any portability benefits for a device that's half the size (everyone must carry coffee table books - no one would ever consider carrying a paperback book). He can't even see that a 7" device is cheaper to make and could sell for less than a 10" device.
Again, I just can't wait for his kids to start begging for an iPad Mini.
I still say the way to go would be to upgrade the Nano to step into some of the void left by making the Touch larger but by larger, I'm not talking 7.85 inches. What Apple needs, instead, is more along the lines of a five-inch Touch, hence eliminating the need for a so-called iPad Mini. I envision a Touch that is priced the same as the current model yet is a little larger than the upcomng iPhone but not so much as to make it impractical to pocket. Those claiming that a 7.85-inch tablet could be regarded as a pocketable device are way off. Having one of those sticking out your back pocket would look rather bizarre.
If instead we get a Touch-like Nano, an iPad Mini priced like a Touch, and to top it off a new Touch, priced like Mini, seriously, doesn't anyone else see the problem with that arrangement?
How much would that display cost if they are using the same 163 PPI panel, but with IPS over TN, that they invested in more than a half decade earlier? They are likely shutting down the 3GS sales for most if not all markets next month so they will have the equipment and may not even have to invest in additional production costs. They've surely worked out all the bugs by now.
Would they uses the latest ARM chips because they are lower power and therefore would cut down on the battery size for a given duration thereby increasing the usability by decreasing the weight, or would they use the older chips because they are cheaper? I'm thinking that 32nm is the most likely way to go here. But not an A6 chip but the A5 that is currently in the iPad 2's that came after the iPad (3) release. I think that is the perfect chip for this inexpensive tablet. Keep it at 1GHz. Keep the GPU the same. Keep most or all of the ASIC the same, just at 32nm. AnandTech has tested this revised iPad 2 and the battery life savings are immense.
What about cellular? While it certainly makes sense to use cellular in a smaller device I'm thinking it's cost, space and battery life prohibitive. There are currently no 7" tablets that are selling with cellular so I'm going to have to guess it won't happen. One cold argue that you could tether to your phone but I'd counter by saying that is a kludge. In fact, I hate the way Apple has set that up. If I tether my Mac to my iPad and close my MBP's lid and reopen it I have to then turn off Personal Hotspot and then turn it back on for my MBP to see it again so I can connect. Why isn't think automatic?!
Personally, I think the weigh is a primary focus for this design. It needs to be so light that it's in the Kindle weight range. But remember this is an 8" device, not 7" which means considerably more display area. It's also Apple so we're talking glass and likely a metal back.
Now, I can see Apple including the in-cell tech and GG2 to reduce the weight and thickness of this device even if it does cost a little more. I think Apple's mindset cares more about these things than a slight increase in profits. Because of this I think we might see a plastic back or a much cheaper metal backing. Something that is very light. I also think the thin bezel on the long sides of the display could be possible only because they could add unnecessary bulk to the device. Again, I think the weight is a primary concern.
Have you ever had childen complaining that the current iPad is unusable.
I keep hearing this argument but it's not children who find the iPad, as is not to their liking. They like it just fine, thank you, based on what I 've witnessed.
But with the iPhone they got people to buy a more expensive device, with the iPad mini people will be buying a less expensive device just for market share or to get more people into the ecosystem, sounds very Amazonish.
Right. Apple would never introduce the MacBook Air at a price lower than the MacBook Pro.
Apple would never introduce a lower priced 21" iMac to compete with the 27" iMac.
Apple would never sell a 13" MBP since it is less expensive than the 15".
Apple would never sell a single CPU Mac Pro since the dual CPU Mac Pro is better.
Oh, wait......
That's a straw man argument. NO ONE said that the current iPad is unusable.
Instead, people are saying that the iPad is a great product and they could also offer a smaller version to appeal to even more people because of its smaller size and lower cost.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
I don't understand; Apple doesn't make products for people who want to get things done?
OK, even though this is like having an argument with a cult member, who obviously isn't paying any attention to what you're saying, I'll play along.
Obviously both uses (work and non) happen on Macs by design and otherwise, so please don't take what I'm saying and imply that I'm claiming the other doesn't exist, as you did here. iTunes accounts for a certain chunk of many Apple users' time. Barely any "work gets done" if one is using iTunes. Same as facebook (which is now integrated into the system), same as many, many aspects of what Apple gives us. Therefore, to use the "how are you going to get any thing done on that thing" argument is folly, because it ignores that simply isn't a concern much of the time, especially on the small devices Apple has ALREADY sold, in countless shapes and models, for many years.
Ask any iPod user how much work they get done on it, or even if they bought it hoping to get work done on it. And why is a big iPod any dumber an idea than a small one?
Point is, there are many devices already in existence where the parameters of said device are exactly what you find wrong with the mini, and understand that I'm NOT talking about tablets necessarily. You keep applying your personal opinion and preferences as facts (problem 1) regarding exhibit A onto exhibit B (problem 2).
Originally Posted by antkm1
It's been a really annoying discovery that the faster you "hunt and peck" with one hand/finger on these devices, the more mistakes you'll make, and sometimes (mostly) it's not your fault but the software.
Exactly. I don't get why everyone seems to want a device designed for only hunt and peck. I thought the idea was to improve tech literacy.
Originally Posted by gwmac
For someone that doesn't use an iPhone or iPad on a regular basis like most of us here (myself included) I find it laughable how he can have such strong opinions about what Apple should or should not make.
I use them both daily.
He got furious…
Oh, you read far too much into words. I'm never angry.
…use your power as mod to threaten banning them when you so often go over the line yourself.
I have never done that to anyone because of their opinions. I will never do it. I've commented on it to trolls who, we would all agree, have no place here.
Originally Posted by Slurpy
I can't think of anything more pointless.
How about a hilarious vendetta against someone on the Internet because he's holding a parallel position to your own that happens to clash every once in a while?
"We're very much alike, you and I, Mr. Bond." The problem comes from when I disagree that absolutely every single product Apple has ever made or could ever be rumored to make will be a success simply because Apple made it. That's really it. You've much the same outlook on people that don't understand why Apple does what it does as I, and we're pretty close on our views on the future, if only that we have different interests and therefore have different foci.
Originally Posted by Slurpy
He doesn't care enough about any innovation or product Apple has made in the last few years to actually buy something.
Of course I don't. You caught me. This is obviously true.
(about which he always turns out to be wrong)
Aw, now, don't fall down into blatant lies. It'll ruin your credibility.
It's fascinating, in a scary, pathetic sort of way.
See my comment above re: vendettas.
Originally Posted by jragosta
Yes, it's funny how TS refuses to hear all the people here who disagree with him…
If by that you mean, "you refuse to read my posts where I've responded to those with whom I disagree," then yes, you're correct. :broken_confused_emoticon:
To make it even more obvious, a large percentage of the people here are geeks who will always want the best, so if this group is asking for a 7" iPad, the demand must really be there.
To make it even more obvious, this forum represents all manner of fringe groups and the actual market, the 95% of actual tablet users that are buying the current size of iPad over all other sizes of tablet, are the metric against which we should be gauging things. The xMac is a fringe group. Matte display users are a fringe group. iPhone nano is a fringe group. You can't even say that "the market for a 7" tablet is even larger than existing tablets buyers; they're just waiting for an Apple tablet," because that's nonsense. WE'RE the ones that wait for Apple versions. Regular people would just buy what is out now if they saw something that fit with what they thought they wanted. And when/if it didn't, they'd get rid of it, return it, or stop using it. That's reflected in the tablet use marketshare we're seeing.
He can't even see that a 7" device is cheaper to make and could sell for less than a 10" device.
When all you can do is lie, it doesn't really help the argument… I've never denied that it could sell for less.
Again, I just can't wait for his kids to start begging for an iPad Mini.
I'll never have kids. And I've not heard of anyone's actually wanting a smaller iPad. Do you have a link with even a study of 500 kids wanting smaller tablets?
Yes they did but to offer more options but not because of a response to what other companies were doing. SJ was pretty adamant about the current size being ideal. How much cheaper do you really think a smaller iPad is to make? It's gonna have to be made with a older processor and screen. Will it use scaled down iPad apps or scaled up iPhone apps. This would be a big step towards the fragmentation you always laugh at Android having. For the record I'm holding off buying a tablet just in case I am mistaken lol.
As I read elsewhere, "Appleinsider is where the moderators troll and the trolls moderate".
Originally Posted by jlandd
As I read elsewhere, "Appleinsider is where the moderators troll and the trolls moderate".
What an asinine statement.
The way to see this move is to prevent android to get a pat of the tablet market basically instead of giving the low end to android now apple will have it and they will finally have a device for education at a reasonable price. Next school year will be the beginning of the digital book era at k-12 IMHO...
Get them young apple lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by jlandd
As I read elsewhere, "Appleinsider is where the moderators troll and the trolls moderate".
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
What an asinine statement.
You're shooting the messenger.
Originally Posted by ShAdOwXPR
…giving the low end to android now apple will have it and they will finally have a device for education at a reasonable price.
Why isn't that the iPad 2 and iPad 3 next year? If they keep to their current hardware tiering, the iPad 2 will be the same price as a 7" one would be.
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Forbes
A shame they're not going with iPad Air, as John Gruber theorized. It's a nice extension of the brand.
Not a LOT of options in either case… I've tried like crazy to think up alternative variants, and didn't come up with any that would be better.
I also prefer "Air" to "Mini"...
What differentiates the MB Air from the MB Pro? Size and weight mostly, right? Well, that and no optical drive…
In this case, the "lighter, smaller" iPad would fit as an "air" in my view...
Who says it's a response to what others are doing? It was reported here not that long ago that Jobs did NOT have a strong objection to a 7" tablet. His comments were largely marketing oriented.
The most likely scenario to me is that Apple had a smaller tablet in the back of their minds all along but decided to concentrate on one size to get the market moving and will add the smaller one on their own timetable.
Not even close to being true.
Apple has something like 60-65% of the tablet market. The remaining 35-40% is almost all either 7" or 10". I don't have a breakdown, but everything I've seen myself is that a large fraction of the non-Apple tablets are 7" - like the Amazon Fire, for example. So something like 20+% of the tablet market is 7" - and that's even when there are no good 7" tablets. If Apple introduces one, they could capture a large chunk of that, plus the people who want 7" but don't have a good option.
Furthermore, your story keeps changing. Before, you were saying that they would sell OK, but that they're crap. Now you're saying that they're not going to sell.
The fact is that there's no doubt that Apple could produce a good 7-8" tablet. They make a 3.5" iPhone/iPod Touch and a 10" tablet and both are recognized as the best in the market. You haven't given a single reason why they can't make a good 8" tablet. All of your arguments (like "it's too small to type") are thoroughly debunked by the success of the iPhone/iPod Touch.
As usual, you're simply ignoring that a reasonable number of people here say that they'd buy a 7" iPad Mini. There's also the fact that a reasonable percentage of others already buy 7" tablets - even though the ones that are available today are crap.