We've got a winner. What a great job Apple!! You now have millions, intended or unintended- more of the of latter actually..., of beta users of your half-baked crappy map application. Only a company with tens of billion of dollars cold hard cash in the bank can do this because it just can afford major screw up like this. And, the funky thing is legions of Apple apologists, lemmings and fanbois seem to be ready to defend Apple's ineptitude at any costs. They are doing this for what again? This one escapes me.
For two products in a row Apple has let its users become beta testers. The only different was Siri for 4S was claimed to be a beta when released while this Apple map application was promised to be the best thing since sliced bread, perhaps if the bread was made with wrong parts of sugar, salt and yeast then it all makes sense. The SIRI's [Somewhat Intelligent Reponse Interpreter] fiasco was clearly an embarrassment and had been beaten up to pulps in term of accuracy by its Android's counterpart. This map application is something else. It is not a beta because Apple never announces it as a beta product. It proclaims it as a part of the new IOS 6. The adage says you are only as strong as your weakest link. Judge by this, IOS 6 becomes a major failure indeed. IOS 6 is already behind the curve compare to Android JB, and the sad thing is the latter was supposedly a copy of IOS. In other words, the copy is now better than the original. Where have we seen this before?
Not too long ago, in the early 1970's, the Japanese had produced a bunch of junky copycat but puny cars modeled after the Detroit's Big Three's "quality" cars, But, moving forward to the early 1990's, all major Japanese car manufacturers, Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Mazda produced not only some of the best selling cars but also many of the most reliable cars in the US [and the world]. The difference between this history of American love story with their [Japanese] cars and the Android OS above is that it only takes Android four short years to leap frog Apple's IOS. Windows Phone will also actually leapfrog IOS 6 as well when WP 8 is officially released late next month. Apple's complacency is perhaps to blame for all these.
As a side note, Windows, for it being a copy of "the look and feel" of Mac OS, needs about twenty years to become on par with Mac OS [now OSX]. It takes roughly the same amount of time for Microsoft to catch up with Apple's OS in comparison with what the Japanese automakers had done to their rivals from Detroit. Yet, Android needs only four years to surpass its rival IOS.
Yup -- the biggest problem is the data.
I'd like somebody to explain how exactly more users will improve the data situation. If apple sees a lot of people going where there is no road, will they infer there's a road there? How will apple learn that there is a whole foods someplace that they didn't know about? Are users supposed to report problems every time they want to add information?
Dont worry, just keep repeating ' It just works, it just works' and make sure you carry a paper based street directory with you.
GREAT NEWS ! But why did they wait for the OS to come out? Didn't they realize it was bad by themselves? Is this a sign that they are too close-minded?
The picture used as an example here shows what is actually the smallest problem with maps, and this kind of artifact actually doesn't bother me at all (I don't care if I don't see under a bridge on a highway). IMO flyover is almost perfect, the next versions will load faster and be more detailed, so I'm not worried by that. The biggest problem are just the basic maps and the search engine.
Yup -- the biggest problem is the data.
I'd like somebody to explain how exactly more users will improve the data situation. If apple sees a lot of people going where there is no road, will they infer there's a road there? How will apple learn that there is a whole foods someplace that they didn't know about? Are users supposed to report problems every time they want to add information?
First, statistically they can concentrate their refinement efforts on the places people search for and go to.
Second, a certain percentage of people will report problems and they can use that input to fix the problem.
Third, assuming enough information is logged, they can re-create a series of searches and map requests and model what the user is doing. For example if a user is located in California and enters a request for "Pasadena" and the app returns the map for Pasadena, TX. Then the user enters a second request for Pasadena, CA... The analysis shows a deficiency in the "context" assumption of the search algorithm.
You can assume that after the app returns information, the user will act on that information in a predetermined way. For example if the navigation feature tells him turn left at the next corner and he doesn't – it should be a flag that something may be wrong with the directions, e.g. a one way street or no left turn allowed.
This is an application where statistical analysis of aggregate data can be used to focus in on activities requiring attention -- the unexpected. Then, using the logged data, model the activity to see if you can recreate/determine the problem without actually visiting the site.
Forstall is doing a great job, he probably didn't have a choice since 'someone' above him decided to stop using google maps, and had little time to develop the maps app. They needed more time. Apple put itself at risk with that decision. By next year the maps will be much better and almost everybody will have forgotten this, hopefully.
What's this 'someone' above him excuse? Forstall presented the new Maps app at the new ipad keynote ( where, if you look at the video, he makes a couple of smart alec remarks about google calling their os by candy and icecream names) and last week at the new iphone keynote. And you're telling me he didn't have time? Someone has to answer these questions at Apple - not for you or me, but for their own sake:
1. Who decided to go with this new Maps app
2. Who tested it BEFORE it was presented to the public at the ipad keynote
3. Who gave final approval for it to be released as part of the new ios
4. Why do Apple now need additional developers to sort out this mess?
5. Who is going to take accountability for this fiasco (Forstall should)
6. What leadership is Timmy Cook going to show, if any, to address this?
7. What does this say abot Apple's internal quality control processes?
8. How much ammunition does this give Google and Samsung to point out that they are better to go with?
If I were at Google now I would blitz the media with advertisements saying ' Dear Apple, we have noticed you are having problems designing and implementing a maps app and need to hire staff. We offer our services to you, to show you how to produce a professional maps app'.
I have a question, just so we know where you're coming from:
How many people do you have (or ever had) working for you?
You can assume that after the app returns information, the user will act on that information in a predetermined way. For example if the navigation feature tells him turn left at the next corner and he doesn't – it should be a flag that something may be wrong with the directions, e.g. a one way street or no left turn allowed.
This is an application where statistical analysis of aggregate data can be used to focus in on activities requiring attention -- the unexpected. Then, using the logged data, model the activity to see if you can recreate/determine the problem without actually visiting the site.
That's good for starters!
That would require tracking and logging of individual users and their specific and very detailed travels, something you earlier said Apple was not doing in your opinion. To work as you say they would obviously have to register where device UDID#whatever asked directions to, what the returned results were and where that specific device traveled, yard by yard and turn by turn. Perhaps after using iOS6 maps for just a bit you've changed your opinion on whether your individual travels are monitored/tracked by Apple?
"I don't think it tracks you as an individual or a device. "
I have a question, just so we know where you're coming from:
How many people do you have (or ever had) working for you?
you have a bizarre logic. so Forstall has many people working for him and this prevented him ever asking - does this app actially work? did he ever think to try it for himself or was that just reserved for the two times he showed it at the recent keynotes?
if anything having many more people working for him is an indictment on a broader group of people. Did they all miss that perhaps the app is worth testing and retesting beforegoing live?
whether forstalll has 1000 or 1 person working for him, he is accountable. He is the senior vice president, reporting to Timmy.
I have a question, just so we know where you're coming from:
How many people do you have (or ever had) working for you?
you have a bizarre logic. so Forstall has many people working for him and this prevented him ever asking - does this app actially work? did he ever think to try it for himself or was that just reserved for the two times he showed it at the recent keynotes?
if anything having many more people working for him is an indictment on a broader group of people. Did they all miss that perhaps the app is worth testing and retesting beforegoing live?
whether forstalll has 1000 or 1 person working for him, he is accountable. He is the senior vice president, reporting to Timmy.
You misunderstand! I was trying to determine if you have any management experience that would qualify you to criticize Scott or any of the Apple management.
First, statistically they can concentrate their refinement efforts on the places people search for and go to.
Second, a certain percentage of people will report problems and they can use that input to fix the problem.
Third, assuming enough information is logged, they can re-create a series of searches and map requests and model what the user is doing. For example if a user is located in California and enters a request for "Pasadena" and the app returns the map for Pasadena, TX. Then the user enters a second request for Pasadena, CA... The analysis shows a deficiency in the "context" assumption of the search algorithm.
You can assume that after the app returns information, the user will act on that information in a predetermined way. For example if the navigation feature tells him turn left at the next corner and he doesn't – it should be a flag that something may be wrong with the directions, e.g. a one way street or no left turn allowed.
This is an application where statistical analysis of aggregate data can be used to focus in on activities requiring attention -- the unexpected. Then, using the logged data, model the activity to see if you can recreate/determine the problem without actually visiting the site.
That's good for starters!
You are describing what Google has been doing for a long time. I really hope that Apple is going to do this if they are not already, in an automated way.
[quote name="Dick Applebaum" url="/t/152772/apple-hiring-developers-to-work-on-widely-criticized-ios-6-maps#post_2195029"] You misunderstand! I was trying to determine if you have any management experience that would qualify you to criticize Scott or any of the
Dont try to twist this around, everyone reading your responses knows exactly where you were going until I called you on it - it's the coward's way to blame someone else or hide behind someone else or say 'i didnt know'. No good for Forstall being a one way leader - taking the credit when things go well but not taking responsibility when he is accountable for something going wrong.
First, statistically they can concentrate their refinement efforts on the places people search for and go to.
Second, a certain percentage of people will report problems and they can use that input to fix the problem.
Third, assuming enough information is logged, they can re-create a series of searches and map requests and model what the user is doing. For example if a user is located in California and enters a request for "Pasadena" and the app returns the map for Pasadena, TX. Then the user enters a second request for Pasadena, CA... The analysis shows a deficiency in the "context" assumption of the search algorithm.
You can assume that after the app returns information, the user will act on that information in a predetermined way. For example if the navigation feature tells him turn left at the next corner and he doesn't – it should be a flag that something may be wrong with the directions, e.g. a one way street or no left turn allowed.
This is an application where statistical analysis of aggregate data can be used to focus in on activities requiring attention -- the unexpected. Then, using the logged data, model the activity to see if you can recreate/determine the problem without actually visiting the site.
That's good for starters!
You are describing what Google has been doing for a long time. I really hope that Apple is going to do this if they are not already, in an automated way.
I think they will. Whenever you're providing a service you must continuously monitor the quality of that service and whether it is meeting its objectives.
If Apple's improvements with Siri are any indication they should be able to get maps up to speed in a short time.
I suspect, that right now, Apple has a backlog of surface map data source material that isn't iin the proper format be used by the app. I suspect that this is a semi – automated conversion process that can be done incrementally.
2-D overhead data can be acquired from third-party sources.
3-D overhead data must be contracted out and will take time.
I trust that Apple will improve their product. The only thing I care about at the moment is that turn by turn directions are accurate. I don't understand the logic that the simple act of more people using maps will magically improve it.
I was referring to an earlier poster who said something like "second launch screw-up", and I was pointing out it was the third time in a row that Apple screws up an iPhone launch.
In any case, replacing google maps with its own inferior app for economic reasons is not really the image that a company bent on delivering a superior user experience wants to project. I personally don't care about flyovers, but I do need an accurate maps app tightly integrated with the best search engine, and I find street view very useful.
I'll wait to upgrade to iOS6 and get an iPhone 5 until a) iOS6 can be jailbroken, AND b) a standalone Maps app is made available by Google.
You misunderstand! I was trying to determine if you have any management experience that would qualify you to criticize Scott or any of the
Dont try to twist this around, everyone reading your responses knows exactly where you were going until I called you on it - it's the coward's way to blame someone else or hide behind someone else or say 'i didnt know'. No good for Forstall being a one way leader - taking the credit when things go well but not taking responsibility when he is accountable for something going wrong.
You have no management experience, correct?
You have no specific knowledge of the decision-making process that led to the maps situation, correct?
You are making recommendations for changes in Apple management based, on assumptions, no experience, and no specific knowledge, correct?
Who signed off this crappy piece of software in the first place ? From the universal bashing (even Mossberg !) this app was not RTM or even near RTM. Beta for the US maybe but 1st iteration of the rest of the world...
I am so glad I did not update my iPad2 yet, which I will only do once Google Maps is out as a stand-alone app.
But some senior VP heads should roll at Apple for this
This is ridiculous - as is the "widely criticized" headline.
SOME people have problems, but some people have no problems. And some people have problems with Google Maps.
So where's the evidence that Apple's maps is significantly worse than Google's? Picking and choosing problems isn't a useful comparison - especially when you're picking problems with Apple's system and ignoring problems with Google's system. So far, it's the usual click-bait crap. Someone finds a problem and blows it up into 1,000 times worse than it is. Then, after the dust settles, it turns out that it wasn't that bad, after all.
This is ridiculous - as is the "widely criticized" headline.
SOME people have problems, but some people have no problems. And some people have problems with Google Maps.
So where's the evidence that Apple's maps is significantly worse than Google's? Picking and choosing problems isn't a useful comparison - especially when you're picking problems with Apple's system and ignoring problems with Google's system. So far, it's the usual click-bait crap. Someone finds a problem and blows it up into 1,000 times worse than it is. Then, after the dust settles, it turns out that it wasn't that bad, after all.
I was referring to an earlier poster who said something like "second launch screw-up", and I was pointing out it was the third time in a row that Apple screws up an iPhone launch.
The launch of the iPhone is separate from the launch of iOS6, since one does not depend on the other.
As far as I can tell, the iPhone launch was even more successful than the last one.
If I were at Google now I would blitz the media with advertisements saying ' Dear Apple, we have noticed you are having problems designing and implementing a maps app and need to hire staff. We offer our services to you, to show you how to produce a professional maps app'.
Instead, Google blitzed forums across the internet with astroturfers.
Comments
We've got a winner. What a great job Apple!! You now have millions, intended or unintended- more of the of latter actually..., of beta users of your half-baked crappy map application. Only a company with tens of billion of dollars cold hard cash in the bank can do this because it just can afford major screw up like this. And, the funky thing is legions of Apple apologists, lemmings and fanbois seem to be ready to defend Apple's ineptitude at any costs. They are doing this for what again? This one escapes me.
For two products in a row Apple has let its users become beta testers. The only different was Siri for 4S was claimed to be a beta when released while this Apple map application was promised to be the best thing since sliced bread, perhaps if the bread was made with wrong parts of sugar, salt and yeast then it all makes sense. The SIRI's [Somewhat Intelligent Reponse Interpreter] fiasco was clearly an embarrassment and had been beaten up to pulps in term of accuracy by its Android's counterpart. This map application is something else. It is not a beta because Apple never announces it as a beta product. It proclaims it as a part of the new IOS 6. The adage says you are only as strong as your weakest link. Judge by this, IOS 6 becomes a major failure indeed. IOS 6 is already behind the curve compare to Android JB, and the sad thing is the latter was supposedly a copy of IOS. In other words, the copy is now better than the original. Where have we seen this before?
Not too long ago, in the early 1970's, the Japanese had produced a bunch of junky copycat but puny cars modeled after the Detroit's Big Three's "quality" cars, But, moving forward to the early 1990's, all major Japanese car manufacturers, Toyota, Honda, Nissan and Mazda produced not only some of the best selling cars but also many of the most reliable cars in the US [and the world]. The difference between this history of American love story with their [Japanese] cars and the Android OS above is that it only takes Android four short years to leap frog Apple's IOS. Windows Phone will also actually leapfrog IOS 6 as well when WP 8 is officially released late next month. Apple's complacency is perhaps to blame for all these.
As a side note, Windows, for it being a copy of "the look and feel" of Mac OS, needs about twenty years to become on par with Mac OS [now OSX]. It takes roughly the same amount of time for Microsoft to catch up with Apple's OS in comparison with what the Japanese automakers had done to their rivals from Detroit. Yet, Android needs only four years to surpass its rival IOS.
Dont worry, just keep repeating ' It just works, it just works' and make sure you carry a paper based street directory with you.
First, statistically they can concentrate their refinement efforts on the places people search for and go to.
Second, a certain percentage of people will report problems and they can use that input to fix the problem.
Third, assuming enough information is logged, they can re-create a series of searches and map requests and model what the user is doing. For example if a user is located in California and enters a request for "Pasadena" and the app returns the map for Pasadena, TX. Then the user enters a second request for Pasadena, CA... The analysis shows a deficiency in the "context" assumption of the search algorithm.
You can assume that after the app returns information, the user will act on that information in a predetermined way. For example if the navigation feature tells him turn left at the next corner and he doesn't – it should be a flag that something may be wrong with the directions, e.g. a one way street or no left turn allowed.
This is an application where statistical analysis of aggregate data can be used to focus in on activities requiring attention -- the unexpected. Then, using the logged data, model the activity to see if you can recreate/determine the problem without actually visiting the site.
That's good for starters!
I have a question, just so we know where you're coming from:
How many people do you have (or ever had) working for you?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
You can assume that after the app returns information, the user will act on that information in a predetermined way. For example if the navigation feature tells him turn left at the next corner and he doesn't – it should be a flag that something may be wrong with the directions, e.g. a one way street or no left turn allowed.
This is an application where statistical analysis of aggregate data can be used to focus in on activities requiring attention -- the unexpected. Then, using the logged data, model the activity to see if you can recreate/determine the problem without actually visiting the site.
That's good for starters!
That would require tracking and logging of individual users and their specific and very detailed travels, something you earlier said Apple was not doing in your opinion. To work as you say they would obviously have to register where device UDID#whatever asked directions to, what the returned results were and where that specific device traveled, yard by yard and turn by turn. Perhaps after using iOS6 maps for just a bit you've changed your opinion on whether your individual travels are monitored/tracked by Apple?
"I don't think it tracks you as an individual or a device. "
http://forums.appleinsider.com/t/152763/apple-working-hard-to-rectify-maps-issues-appreciates-customer-feedback/80#post_2194696
you have a bizarre logic. so Forstall has many people working for him and this prevented him ever asking - does this app actially work? did he ever think to try it for himself or was that just reserved for the two times he showed it at the recent keynotes?
if anything having many more people working for him is an indictment on a broader group of people. Did they all miss that perhaps the app is worth testing and retesting beforegoing live?
whether forstalll has 1000 or 1 person working for him, he is accountable. He is the senior vice president, reporting to Timmy.
Quote:
Originally Posted by London Dude
THIRD screw-up in a row. Let's not forget the iPhone 4 antenna debacle. Unlike that time, it will take Apple a long time to fix Maps.
Saying THIRD screw-up in a row sort of implies that they didn't do anything right in between.
You misunderstand! I was trying to determine if you have any management experience that would qualify you to criticize Scott or any of the Apple management.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
First, statistically they can concentrate their refinement efforts on the places people search for and go to.
Second, a certain percentage of people will report problems and they can use that input to fix the problem.
Third, assuming enough information is logged, they can re-create a series of searches and map requests and model what the user is doing. For example if a user is located in California and enters a request for "Pasadena" and the app returns the map for Pasadena, TX. Then the user enters a second request for Pasadena, CA... The analysis shows a deficiency in the "context" assumption of the search algorithm.
You can assume that after the app returns information, the user will act on that information in a predetermined way. For example if the navigation feature tells him turn left at the next corner and he doesn't – it should be a flag that something may be wrong with the directions, e.g. a one way street or no left turn allowed.
This is an application where statistical analysis of aggregate data can be used to focus in on activities requiring attention -- the unexpected. Then, using the logged data, model the activity to see if you can recreate/determine the problem without actually visiting the site.
That's good for starters!
You are describing what Google has been doing for a long time. I really hope that Apple is going to do this if they are not already, in an automated way.
You misunderstand! I was trying to determine if you have any management experience that would qualify you to criticize Scott or any of the
Dont try to twist this around, everyone reading your responses knows exactly where you were going until I called you on it - it's the coward's way to blame someone else or hide behind someone else or say 'i didnt know'. No good for Forstall being a one way leader - taking the credit when things go well but not taking responsibility when he is accountable for something going wrong.
I think they will. Whenever you're providing a service you must continuously monitor the quality of that service and whether it is meeting its objectives.
If Apple's improvements with Siri are any indication they should be able to get maps up to speed in a short time.
I suspect, that right now, Apple has a backlog of surface map data source material that isn't iin the proper format be used by the app. I suspect that this is a semi – automated conversion process that can be done incrementally.
2-D overhead data can be acquired from third-party sources.
3-D overhead data must be contracted out and will take time.
I was referring to an earlier poster who said something like "second launch screw-up", and I was pointing out it was the third time in a row that Apple screws up an iPhone launch.
In any case, replacing google maps with its own inferior app for economic reasons is not really the image that a company bent on delivering a superior user experience wants to project. I personally don't care about flyovers, but I do need an accurate maps app tightly integrated with the best search engine, and I find street view very useful.
I'll wait to upgrade to iOS6 and get an iPhone 5 until a) iOS6 can be jailbroken, AND b) a standalone Maps app is made available by Google.
This is ridiculous - as is the "widely criticized" headline.
SOME people have problems, but some people have no problems. And some people have problems with Google Maps.
So where's the evidence that Apple's maps is significantly worse than Google's? Picking and choosing problems isn't a useful comparison - especially when you're picking problems with Apple's system and ignoring problems with Google's system. So far, it's the usual click-bait crap. Someone finds a problem and blows it up into 1,000 times worse than it is. Then, after the dust settles, it turns out that it wasn't that bad, after all.
Map-gate, indeed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jragosta
This is ridiculous - as is the "widely criticized" headline.
SOME people have problems, but some people have no problems. And some people have problems with Google Maps.
So where's the evidence that Apple's maps is significantly worse than Google's? Picking and choosing problems isn't a useful comparison - especially when you're picking problems with Apple's system and ignoring problems with Google's system. So far, it's the usual click-bait crap. Someone finds a problem and blows it up into 1,000 times worse than it is. Then, after the dust settles, it turns out that it wasn't that bad, after all.
Map-gate, indeed.
Welcome to the echo chamber ... :-)
Quote:
Originally Posted by London Dude
I was referring to an earlier poster who said something like "second launch screw-up", and I was pointing out it was the third time in a row that Apple screws up an iPhone launch.
The launch of the iPhone is separate from the launch of iOS6, since one does not depend on the other.
As far as I can tell, the iPhone launch was even more successful than the last one.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ray Bart
If I were at Google now I would blitz the media with advertisements saying ' Dear Apple, we have noticed you are having problems designing and implementing a maps app and need to hire staff. We offer our services to you, to show you how to produce a professional maps app'.
Instead, Google blitzed forums across the internet with astroturfers.
They are not countless, you just didn't bother to count them. - Lt. Kiff Kroker