That's quite a creative interpretation of the source you cited - let's see what was actually reported there:
One could just as easily surmise that Apple wanted extra stuff and refused to pay for any of it, and wouldn't give anything back in return.
In all fairness, nothing in that story makes it possible for anyone to know who's the "bad guy" here, or if there even is one at all.
As we move forward with what is likely to be even more uninformed finger wagging, consider the opening story here about the time Steve Jobs willfully violated a contract and incurred a lawsuit for Apple to spite a vendor before attempting to prematurely reach any sort of verdict on Apple's relations with Google:
I believe I represented the interpretation from Apple's perspective. I didn't mean to imply it was the ONLY interpretation. But let's face it: Apple does not hand control over to competitors.
My point was that things have changed since the video you posted was released. The article explains how things have changed for both Google and Apple. Any article can be interpreted many ways, and I don't recall wagging a finger, but I don't believe the level of integration and control Google wanted is something Apple would ever agree to.
You also get creative by assuming that this had anything to do with Apple being unwilling to pay. The article doesn't mention money being an issue. It mentions control. For all we know Apple offered mounds of cash to keep control, but Google preferred control and integration over money.
We can debate this all day but the main point is Apple and Google both wanted to changes and they couldn't come to terms.
Google had every right to request more in return for Navigation.
Apple had every right to reject what they asked for.
For Tim Cook the CEO apologizing then the negative feedback must be far greater than the 4-5 negative Fandroids posting here on AI. I'd venture it must be catastrophic.
Funny how that's just not the case at all, you know? And we're supposed to sit idly by and let people actually post this drivel.
I actually disagree with that. Have you used Safari lately? It's unusable, lots of rendering issues when Javascript is involved caused by "tweaks" to increase the number of threads in WebKit, memory leaks all over the place resulting in a Webprocess that sometimes privately allocates as much as 6GB of RAM on my Mac, HTML5 local storage data that doesn't go away while Private Browsing (making Private Browsing actually LESS private than regular browsing), and this is just for Safari. The Darwin kernel has been suffering from Bluetooth induced panics since at least Lion which are yet to be fixed, reminders were completely unusable to me when Mountain Lion launch because my street name has non-ASCII characters that completely crashed the application (same thing causing issues to the search in iOS 6's Maps), Notes and most stand-alone small applications privately allocating 500MB of RAM for God knows what (which is amusing, considering that Mail which has a lot more functionality stays stable at 300MB and iTunes stays stable at 500-600).
Things may look as pretty as ever now, but Apple is becoming pretty sloppy in the quality department.
For Tim Cook the CEO apologizing then the negative feedback must be far greater than the 4-5 negative Fandroids posting here on AI. I'd venture it must be catastrophic.
We aren't used to an Apple CEO behaving like the CEO of some Android OEM or Wintel junk-box maker.
Given Apple's sheer product strength, this is just a blip on their radar screen. It isn't catastrophic. But it is a little disappointing.
lol!
Just let us download the fully working version of Google Maps that we had from iOS 5....
Apple isn't the copyright holder so they can't just release it. google needs to submit an app etc. Google who should have been working on it since the day Apple didn't sign a lifetime contract, or when they started buying map tech companies
What I love is if you read between the lines. The message then it more of a 'this is brand new but if you want to be a hater just go use something else. We aren't stopping you.' which in a way is what I wish Apple would just flat say. Remind folks that new things in tech are never perfect even at Apple and they need to chill with expecting that every time. Remind them how long Google has been perfecting their maps compared to this 'from the ground up' system.
"<span style="background-color:rgb(226,225,225);color:rgb(24,24,24);font-family:'lucida grande', verdana, helvetica, sans-serif;line-height:normal;">The more our customers use our Maps the better it will get"</span>
<span style="background-color:rgb(226,225,225);color:rgb(24,24,24);font-family:'lucida grande', verdana, helvetica, sans-serif;line-height:normal;">I don't understand. If we keep using Maps, the image on the right will gradually become the image on the left? How is that possible?</span>
Feedback. Not everyone who finds something off just runs to the web to gripe. Some actually 'report a problem'. Maps or otherwise.
Classy. They were really caught in a no-win situation - the needed their own maps solution in the market, but to make it world-class, it needed users, which they can't get until they launch it, but launching it means replacing an existing excellent solution. . .around and around.
Yep, rather like Siri-gate last year. They needed literally millions of voice samples and could either release it or not and hope none of the millions of actors etc they hired leaked what they were doing. And that they could find sufficient variety to be useful.
This is not Apple's fault. Google will never make a Map app for iOS. Because it can not make one Map for iOS which is drastically different from the one on Android. It will bring bad publicity to Google too.
Apple's 'route' is correct. Google is determined to make Android succeed over iOS. Some iOS6 Map users will experience short term inconvenience. In the long term Apple will succeed because it has tremendous resources. This is the reason I am sticking with Apple this time. In the Windows era I stick with Apple because MacOS is better. Apple is having a completely different competitor than Microsoft.
a "half a billion" search requests that returned some, valid, invalid or no map data...
<< "half a billion" search requests that have been follow-ons to unsatisfactory searches...
Now, we know Apple is logging all these searches! The search data, return data and search patterns (follow-on searches) can be analyzed by computer to quickly focus on problem areas that need attention, e.g.:
"Where were you when you made the search?"
"Why was no Address found?"
"Why did you make an additional search with slightly modified search terms?"
"Why did you make a right turn followed by a U-tern when I told you to make a left turn?"
"What problems were reported?"
By having access to all of the data, Apple now has the ability and opportunity to refine the maps experience.
Apple never had that the ability and opportunity with Google and iOS5 maps.
Shunting, those 2 billion searches (per month) back to Google would defeat the opportunity for Apple to build a superior maps experience.
So they are not tracking me? Or they are tracking me? Which is it?
Tim, sir, really no need for an apology. I believe the customers who are happy with the new Map(p)s vastly outnumber the people who are discontent. Who, by the way, can get around any shortcomings, like you point out yourself.
But the unhappy ones are the vocal ones. So this letter, which rather half ass apologizes, is an attempt to shut them up.
1. My point is that Google Maps DOES work in iOS 6. Via the browser. It looks identical to the Maps app from before.
2. If you think this is a pissing match only, and it's all about ego - then you're the stupid one. Follow the $$. When in doubt, always follow the $$.
3. Apple hasn't "stolen" engineers. Apple is hiring FORMER Google Map engineers. FORMER. That means they once worked for Google but no longer do, in case you're confused.
4. Larry Page hasn't comment on this, to my knowledge. I think you mean Eric Schmidt, when he commented about Apple parting ways and they "were shocked."
5. Those so-called "terms of use" you're referring to are Google branding, Google controlling the user experience, and Google harvesting the users data. None of which benefits YOU or more importantly, Apple.
Bottom line, Apple learned its lesson from the 90s. Don't let another company control your destiny.
By the way, Allenbf. here is your first sentence: "How can he get the Google app available now?"
Is this grammatically correct English?
Everybody is a "former" employee after they leave firm "A" to go work for firm "B".
Most users want a simple application which takes the to what they want to do.
If using Safari gets you Google Maps, then Apple should create a simple automation app which does that function in one step and call it Google Maps or something.
Does using your browser limit what Google can do with branding or data harvesting?
Does this allow Apple to control its destiny?
No matter what you or anybody tell me, Apple should not have released their mapping program without fixing all these image issues. It was not ready for public use.
In light of that video I saw I don't think Steve Jobs would have released the Apple Maps app in its current poor state.
The situation is also affecting the stock price. I know of several people who have put off upgrading to the new phone in spite of the Safari solution you mentioned.
Notice that while Tim Cook signed his name to his letter, the Retail VP John Browett has yet to put his name on any public statement regarding his decisions affecting Apple Retail Stores.
Safari performs brilliantly, actually. So there's *my* anecdote.
That only tells me you haven't used it, otherwise you would know, because the experiences that I report are common to everyone using it. Do you want me to provide you with a very common use case where Safari fails so you can verify it for yourself and stop calling an anecdote or will you admit you're lying and not reply to my post out of shame?
That's my view. I STILL haven't seen any evidence that it's any worse than the other solutions out there. A few anecdotal reports (including those fabricated by Google) are not valid evidence.
It is worse than some of those 15 year old offerings. But that's the key. Those boys have been working on this longer. As Tim says 'from the ground up'. Like Final Cut X etc, when you go back to ground it is insane to expect perfection the moment something is released. Tim left out the 'insane expections that this would be perfect from the start compared to stuff from companies that had more time to be perfect' part of his letter. Likely because he's not the CEO of Samsung so he doesn't insult users by calling them stupid to expect so much from the start. Wise move on the one hand, mistake on the other. Cause Apple needs the world to reset their expectations about perfection in products overall. Perhaps with a reminder that it was the same when Steve was around. And no one is making them buy Apple, so the haters can shut it.
Steve only wrote letters when he wanted to push the human race forward. When something Apple would never do was happening or when something that didn't directly affect users was happening.
Tim doing the same would have resulted in a letter while Google was still the mapping service. In it, he would have made public the reason Apple made their own maps (Google refusing to provide turn by turn, as an example of something we still don't know), as well as their plan for the future thereof.
Doing THAT preemptively would have removed most of the legitimate complaints with the service at launch and all of the illegitimate ones. I wish he would have done that.
I absolutely hate playing the WWSD game. Jobs flip flopped numerous times on his positions at Apple, and for anyone to second guess what he would do in any situation is absolutely impossible.
But I wholeheartedly agree with you that this is a far more likely response from Apple if Steve had been at the helm, based on previous actions, and would have been a far more effective response than this lame milquetoast reaction from Cook. In fact, it's so soft, I wonder what Cook is trying to do, or what ties bind him ... Maybe he thinks nobody could get away with Steve's antics besides Steve. Either way, totally agree this is the tactic Apple should have taken,
Well, I should report that iOS 6's maps can finally return a result when I search for my street, which has been charted on the map since day 1 in the beta, BUT only if I type its name with a cedilla and a circumflex to match the exact spelling (this street is named after a city in Mozambique; my entire neighborhood's streets are named after cities in Africa, meaning lots of non-ASCII characters in street names), and EVEN THEN it still points to a location like 3 kilometers away from where I live (and 3 kilometers away from the place where the street is charted on the map, demonstrating lack of parity between the map and the database). Forget about abbreviations, incorrect spelling, or missing accentuation marks; any of those will still cause the search to fail. The fact that an app is pushed to production in this state is a demonstration of pure incompetence, I wouldn't even accept this from a newbie developer.
EDIT: Added trivia about my 'hood's street names.
Don't you think that would have been useful information to have included in all your posts complaining about iOS 6 maps? You seem to regard yourself as a perfectionist and hold everyone to your standard -- how could you have overlooked this obvious potential problem or failed to mention it?
Would we be correct to assume that you reported the problem and solution to Apple?
It's about time. Apple maps just plain sucks. I've been an apple fan for a long time and enjoy using their desktop os and laptops, but their mobile offerings are just not comparable to android powered devices. Worst part is that they choose to be shitty because they're pissed at Google.
You are welcome to not like the iPhone etc and go buy what you want.
But stop with the armchair CEO games. You have no idea why Apple does what it does. So just don't.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by jnjnjn
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthur123
So Jeff what are you saying. Tim Cook wants the Apple iphone users to be the beta testers for this not ready for prime time mapping program?
If that is the case they should have included it as a bonus program as part of OS6 and still given users full access to Google maps.
As an Apple stock holder his apology means nothing. Its offering me a drink with an empty glass.
If he truly wants people to move forward he needs to bring back the Google App period end of story.
It's a good thing stock holders have no say in Apples plans.
Since you have no trust in Apple you should sell your stock immediately.
J.
I think he did... someone dumped 666,000 shares of AAPL at open... now @Arthur123 will have lots of time to bitch and moan about Apple!
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacRulez
That's quite a creative interpretation of the source you cited - let's see what was actually reported there:
In all fairness, nothing in that story makes it possible for anyone to know who's the "bad guy" here, or if there even is one at all.
As we move forward with what is likely to be even more uninformed finger wagging, consider the opening story here about the time Steve Jobs willfully violated a contract and incurred a lawsuit for Apple to spite a vendor before attempting to prematurely reach any sort of verdict on Apple's relations with Google:
http://www.wired.com/business/2012/07/ff_stevejobs/all/
I believe I represented the interpretation from Apple's perspective. I didn't mean to imply it was the ONLY interpretation. But let's face it: Apple does not hand control over to competitors.
My point was that things have changed since the video you posted was released. The article explains how things have changed for both Google and Apple. Any article can be interpreted many ways, and I don't recall wagging a finger, but I don't believe the level of integration and control Google wanted is something Apple would ever agree to.
You also get creative by assuming that this had anything to do with Apple being unwilling to pay. The article doesn't mention money being an issue. It mentions control. For all we know Apple offered mounds of cash to keep control, but Google preferred control and integration over money.
We can debate this all day but the main point is Apple and Google both wanted to changes and they couldn't come to terms.
Google had every right to request more in return for Navigation.
Apple had every right to reject what they asked for.
Who is to blame? Honestly probably both of them.
I actually disagree with that. Have you used Safari lately? It's unusable, lots of rendering issues when Javascript is involved caused by "tweaks" to increase the number of threads in WebKit, memory leaks all over the place resulting in a Webprocess that sometimes privately allocates as much as 6GB of RAM on my Mac, HTML5 local storage data that doesn't go away while Private Browsing (making Private Browsing actually LESS private than regular browsing), and this is just for Safari. The Darwin kernel has been suffering from Bluetooth induced panics since at least Lion which are yet to be fixed, reminders were completely unusable to me when Mountain Lion launch because my street name has non-ASCII characters that completely crashed the application (same thing causing issues to the search in iOS 6's Maps), Notes and most stand-alone small applications privately allocating 500MB of RAM for God knows what (which is amusing, considering that Mail which has a lot more functionality stays stable at 300MB and iTunes stays stable at 500-600).
Things may look as pretty as ever now, but Apple is becoming pretty sloppy in the quality department.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iSheldon
For Tim Cook the CEO apologizing then the negative feedback must be far greater than the 4-5 negative Fandroids posting here on AI. I'd venture it must be catastrophic.
We aren't used to an Apple CEO behaving like the CEO of some Android OEM or Wintel junk-box maker.
Given Apple's sheer product strength, this is just a blip on their radar screen. It isn't catastrophic. But it is a little disappointing.
Apple isn't the copyright holder so they can't just release it. google needs to submit an app etc. Google who should have been working on it since the day Apple didn't sign a lifetime contract, or when they started buying map tech companies
What I love is if you read between the lines. The message then it more of a 'this is brand new but if you want to be a hater just go use something else. We aren't stopping you.' which in a way is what I wish Apple would just flat say. Remind folks that new things in tech are never perfect even at Apple and they need to chill with expecting that every time. Remind them how long Google has been perfecting their maps compared to this 'from the ground up' system.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelian
I actually disagree with that. Have you used Safari lately? It's unusable,
LOL thanks for the anecdote.
Safari performs brilliantly, actually. So there's *my* anecdote.
Feedback. Not everyone who finds something off just runs to the web to gripe. Some actually 'report a problem'. Maps or otherwise.
Yep, rather like Siri-gate last year. They needed literally millions of voice samples and could either release it or not and hope none of the millions of actors etc they hired leaked what they were doing. And that they could find sufficient variety to be useful.
This is not Apple's fault. Google will never make a Map app for iOS. Because it can not make one Map for iOS which is drastically different from the one on Android. It will bring bad publicity to Google too.
Apple's 'route' is correct. Google is determined to make Android succeed over iOS. Some iOS6 Map users will experience short term inconvenience. In the long term Apple will succeed because it has tremendous resources. This is the reason I am sticking with Apple this time. In the Windows era I stick with Apple because MacOS is better. Apple is having a completely different competitor than Microsoft.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
These are pretty big numbers
a "half a billion" search requests in 1+ weeks...
a "half a billion" search requests that returned some, valid, invalid or no map data...
<< "half a billion" search requests that have been follow-ons to unsatisfactory searches...
Now, we know Apple is logging all these searches! The search data, return data and search patterns (follow-on searches) can be analyzed by computer to quickly focus on problem areas that need attention, e.g.:
"Where were you when you made the search?"
"Why was no Address found?"
"Why did you make an additional search with slightly modified search terms?"
"Why did you make a right turn followed by a U-tern when I told you to make a left turn?"
"What problems were reported?"
By having access to all of the data, Apple now has the ability and opportunity to refine the maps experience.
Apple never had that the ability and opportunity with Google and iOS5 maps.
Shunting, those 2 billion searches (per month) back to Google would defeat the opportunity for Apple to build a superior maps experience.
So they are not tracking me? Or they are tracking me? Which is it?
But the unhappy ones are the vocal ones. So this letter, which rather half ass apologizes, is an attempt to shut them up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by allenbf
I'm stupid? Your grammar is ridiculous.
1. My point is that Google Maps DOES work in iOS 6. Via the browser. It looks identical to the Maps app from before.
2. If you think this is a pissing match only, and it's all about ego - then you're the stupid one. Follow the $$. When in doubt, always follow the $$.
3. Apple hasn't "stolen" engineers. Apple is hiring FORMER Google Map engineers. FORMER. That means they once worked for Google but no longer do, in case you're confused.
4. Larry Page hasn't comment on this, to my knowledge. I think you mean Eric Schmidt, when he commented about Apple parting ways and they "were shocked."
5. Those so-called "terms of use" you're referring to are Google branding, Google controlling the user experience, and Google harvesting the users data. None of which benefits YOU or more importantly, Apple.
Bottom line, Apple learned its lesson from the 90s. Don't let another company control your destiny.
By the way, Allenbf. here is your first sentence: "How can he get the Google app available now?"
Is this grammatically correct English?
Everybody is a "former" employee after they leave firm "A" to go work for firm "B".
Most users want a simple application which takes the to what they want to do.
If using Safari gets you Google Maps, then Apple should create a simple automation app which does that function in one step and call it Google Maps or something.
Does using your browser limit what Google can do with branding or data harvesting?
Does this allow Apple to control its destiny?
No matter what you or anybody tell me, Apple should not have released their mapping program without fixing all these image issues. It was not ready for public use.
In light of that video I saw I don't think Steve Jobs would have released the Apple Maps app in its current poor state.
The situation is also affecting the stock price. I know of several people who have put off upgrading to the new phone in spite of the Safari solution you mentioned.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Haggar
Notice that while Tim Cook signed his name to his letter, the Retail VP John Browett has yet to put his name on any public statement regarding his decisions affecting Apple Retail Stores.
Which decisions concern you?
deleted
That only tells me you haven't used it, otherwise you would know, because the experiences that I report are common to everyone using it. Do you want me to provide you with a very common use case where Safari fails so you can verify it for yourself and stop calling an anecdote or will you admit you're lying and not reply to my post out of shame?
It is worse than some of those 15 year old offerings. But that's the key. Those boys have been working on this longer. As Tim says 'from the ground up'. Like Final Cut X etc, when you go back to ground it is insane to expect perfection the moment something is released. Tim left out the 'insane expections that this would be perfect from the start compared to stuff from companies that had more time to be perfect' part of his letter. Likely because he's not the CEO of Samsung so he doesn't insult users by calling them stupid to expect so much from the start. Wise move on the one hand, mistake on the other. Cause Apple needs the world to reset their expectations about perfection in products overall. Perhaps with a reminder that it was the same when Steve was around. And no one is making them buy Apple, so the haters can shut it.
I absolutely hate playing the WWSD game. Jobs flip flopped numerous times on his positions at Apple, and for anyone to second guess what he would do in any situation is absolutely impossible.
But I wholeheartedly agree with you that this is a far more likely response from Apple if Steve had been at the helm, based on previous actions, and would have been a far more effective response than this lame milquetoast reaction from Cook. In fact, it's so soft, I wonder what Cook is trying to do, or what ties bind him ... Maybe he thinks nobody could get away with Steve's antics besides Steve. Either way, totally agree this is the tactic Apple should have taken,
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vaelian
Well, I should report that iOS 6's maps can finally return a result when I search for my street, which has been charted on the map since day 1 in the beta, BUT only if I type its name with a cedilla and a circumflex to match the exact spelling (this street is named after a city in Mozambique; my entire neighborhood's streets are named after cities in Africa, meaning lots of non-ASCII characters in street names), and EVEN THEN it still points to a location like 3 kilometers away from where I live (and 3 kilometers away from the place where the street is charted on the map, demonstrating lack of parity between the map and the database). Forget about abbreviations, incorrect spelling, or missing accentuation marks; any of those will still cause the search to fail. The fact that an app is pushed to production in this state is a demonstration of pure incompetence, I wouldn't even accept this from a newbie developer.
EDIT: Added trivia about my 'hood's street names.
Don't you think that would have been useful information to have included in all your posts complaining about iOS 6 maps? You seem to regard yourself as a perfectionist and hold everyone to your standard -- how could you have overlooked this obvious potential problem or failed to mention it?
Would we be correct to assume that you reported the problem and solution to Apple?
You are welcome to not like the iPhone etc and go buy what you want.
But stop with the armchair CEO games. You have no idea why Apple does what it does. So just don't.