Yeah, probably by the same idiot Executive we run into that do not understan the concept of a corporate Implementation manuel - and corporate fonts.
half my day is spent now rejecting presentations made on mickey mouse tablet apps with random font selection - we at least get a decent laugh when we open them.
everything of value is still produced on a real OS - either OSX or Windows.
The whole "recreational" tablet, and the "media" tablet appellation before that is Microsoft's way of trying to create a separate product category for their tablets. If they can avoid having their "tablet" offerings compared to Apple's, by attaching a different label to them, they can be the leader in "productivity" tablets, even if that's a pyrrhic victory.
But, I have to agree with an earlier comment that these are designed to be the new netbooks, and, as such, they'll be even worse than a netbook for "productivity". As a tablet, they won't be much for "recreation", either.
When you are designing devices, you always have to choose between compromise and dedication to purpose. A 27" iMac represents dedication to productivity. The iPhone represents a dedication to portability. The design of each, from the hardware to the OS and apps, represents these commitments. MacBooks are a compromise device skewed toward productivity. iPads are compromise devices skewed toward portability, with the Mini even more so. Apple has a clear vision of what each of these devices is and their designs reflect that, each fulfilling its purpose admirably.
Microsoft suffers from two problems. The first is their obsession with the "Windows everywhere" philosophy, which, first, made them design their mobile software as a scaled down version of Windows 95, then, to design their desktop software as a scaled up version of Windows Phone. The latter decision seems as big a mistake as the former. Their second problem, related to the first, is a lack of understanding of the idea of designing to purpose. Thus, they repeat the same mistakes over and over, trying to make all devices be the same, and ignoring the principle that different devices have different purposes. Their mistake with the Surface is not committing to what the device ought to be but attempting to impose a paradigm on it that doesn't fit its nature.
In other words, it's just another compromise device from Microsoft where they've made all the wrong compromises.
Yeah, it's kind of sad, but I do like having two systems on my computer. It was surreal for a while though.
My home computer(s) have been Mac since the original mini. My work desktop was Windows because of a few key programs. There are four Windows programs I still need to use, now that I think of it. I think that number will diminish over time.
I got it to zero in a very short time and very happy to bring the windows boxes to the dump.
Even got Mac minis at work now.
I get the feeling that at one point there was a massive feud between Ballmer and Sinofsky, and the latter just gave in with probably with a wave of the hand and an "I don't give a shit anymore."
I have to give Microsoft some credit for at least coming up with a design that most reviewers are showing has lots of potential and maybe even some features both Apple and Google could learn from. But comments like calling the iPad a "recreational" tablet is rich coming from a company that is nearly six years late on the modern mobile movement. I think it's fair to say that Apple wasn't looking at the enterprise market closely when the iPad was first introduced. But Enterprise users had other plans for it. And even now Apple recognizes it with it's "Ipads in Business" tab on their web site.
My company had its huge computer show a few weeks ago in San Francisco (you can guess which one it was). All of our customers are looking to mobile as the next wave of enterprise computing. Everyone is using and developing for iOS first and Android second. Windows 8 wasn't even being discussed by anyone. We'll see if that changes next year. But right now, I think most corporate IT is happy that they finally transitioned to Windows 7 after far too long on Windows XP. No one is really interested in pushing to the next Windows just yet and if previous patterns persist, I don't think anyone is going to seriously deploy Windows 8 in enterprise for at least a year.
That means that Windows 8 really has to make inroads with the RT version in the tablet space in order to get visibility quickly. One thing for sure...neither Apple or Google are standing still. Should be fun to watch.
The Microsoft executive countered, saying that while the iPad may be well-suited for a short getaway, Microsoft's Surface can "suffice" on longer business trips. He failed to explain how the Surface RT's price tag of $499, which jumps to $599 with an optional touch cover keyboard, is justified in light of his earlier statements about reasonable Windows 8 machines.
What can you do on this $499 Surface RT? Can you do it on the iPad, Mini or otherwise
Check email? Yes
Go on the web? Yes
Type a letter? Yes
Create a spreadsheet? Yes
Prepare and run a 'PowerPoint'? Yes
Use an external keyboard? Yes
Video chat? Yes
VoIP? Yes (I assume there's such software for RT)
Can the RT read books, view videos, connect to cell data.
Can I use it as an on site camera monitor to verify shots when I'm ot in video village. Can I take a photo and annotate it in a 'journal' or such to log what costumes, hairstyles etc we used in the shot. Can my script supervisor use the RT to take notes for the shot log. Csnmy cinematographer. These are part of my business and I can do them on the iPad, have since the iPad 2 and we are getting Minis for those that are literally running around the set because although the full size iPad worked, we want to give folks the option cause the mini should be an easier fit in our tool bags.
That I can then also run Netflix etc is just a bonus. Although its also sometimes work since I'll watch older work to research a directors style if he's someone we haven't worked with before
Yeah, probably by the same idiot Executive we run into that do not understan the concept of a corporate Implementation manuel - and corporate fonts.
half my day is spent now rejecting presentations made on mickey mouse tablet apps with random font selection - we at least get a decent laugh when we open them.
everything of value is still produced on a real OS - either OSX or Windows.
I'll bet that at least 70% of those folks were sending you 'mickey mouse' presentations before the tablet was an issue, because they are just stupid in such regards. In fact they are probably the reason why that manual exists, the manual they still aren't following.
Anyone who says they got an iPad or a Surface, or a Nexus purely for productive purposes is insane... or lying.
Neither. The issue is that you, like Microsoft, are too narrow in your definition of 'productive'. Not all businesses are spending 8 hours a day writing TPS reports and debating which cover to use.
Some of us are doing things like sinking Tony Stark's mansion into the Pacific Ocean. Very productive, very different needs. And yes we have been serving such needs for the last year on iPads and yes they were bought by our company just for said needs. Almost all of us have our own devices for personal use but we don't mix the two due to company rules
And is Microsoft implying that Windows 8 is targeted towards business users? Because the clown like, fisher price tiles looks like it's made for toddlers.
I don't see many businesses upgrading to Windows 8. Businesses that already use Windows will just stick with XP or 7. And Windows users are not exactly on the cutting edge, Touch Screens is a concept that is foreign to most of them.
Microsoft is targeting Windows 8 towards business users. The catch is that this isn't Windows 8, this is more like Windows 8 lite but they aren't mentioning that. They are 'mixing metaphors' shall we say. Much like some folks are claiming about Apple's UK statement where they say that they 'won' in Germany but apparently that is just the prelim and not the final judgment.
Hopefully businesses have done their research and realize they have to watch several more months for the more expensive hardware and software that will really be for them. Otherwise Microsoft will likely be hoist on their petard when folks get the RT, deem it crap and possibly go to the iPad in the meantime since it is out now, and the full Surface is date TBA.
Let's hope it has that ribbon interface. Then Surface RT's failure will be complete.
LOL. That ribbon is the singularly WORST paradigm I've ever dealt with. It makes you want to memorize all the key commands and go back to Word Perfect. I still remember how to print; Shift F7, F7, 1. I can just imagine someone trying to press that "more" triangle on the text settings to get to what they really wanted.
The problem with MS 'we make things for work rhetoric' is most of the market, certainly the consumer market use their computers for recreation.
Step down from the tech Ivory Tower and you have ordinary folks, they probably work with PCs but in a none-tech business and in the past when it came to having a machine at home for emailing and web surfing pretty much the only choice was the same PC they have at work...
...and guess what, they resent it, it breaks down, gets viruses, the cheap components fail and the crap boxes look bad in the home and there's no IT dude to come and fix it or replace it like in the office.
Well now there's choices, Android, Apple and Amazon and guess what they're not focussing on creating machines for work - they're making machines for entertaining, socialising, communicating, and shopping.
Is there anything like Filemaker Pro + Filemaker Go for Windows RT tablets, and will there be anytime soon? Office RT does not include Access, and I suspect it may never will (huge legacy code mess?)
Filemaker Pro 12 may not scale as well as SQL based solutions which don't really exist on RT yet either, it is still very powerful and offers an interface and scripting language that rivals Hypercard in terms of being "easy to use". And with the advent of Filemaker Go on the iPad (and iPhone), powerful custom database/applications can be easily deployed to iPads and iPhone in businesses. Filemaker is easy to use but is not a dumbed down database solution (that title would go to Bento, also from Filemaker Inc.).
You cannot design databases directly on the iPad with FM Go, you have to do that on a Mac or Windows in "Desktop mode" meaning it won't run on RT either. I highly doubt that Filemaker Inc. (owned by Apple) will ever release something for the Metro/RT platform, so the Surface will end up having nothing comparable for the near future.
Anyone who says they got an iPad or a Surface, or a Nexus purely for productive purposes is insane... or lying.
I find it to be highly productive, which is why I bought one. Am I insane? No. There are many apps that are not even available for the Mac that are available for the iPad, that help me excel in my job. The apps that are available for both Mac and iPad, are great so I can work on them in the field on my iPad and then sync them up with the Mac app where I could continue to work on them from there.
Here's what's funny. Ballmer makes a dumb statement for the media to hype. I just saw a video for Windows 8 and in the video they are showing apps that are basically some of the same apps that have already been on the iPad for years. Fruit NInja? That's a game, yet it was on Windows 8 ad. Hmmmmm.....
Now, the iPad mini is probably a great size for restaurants. If I was a water at a restaurant, that's basically the same size as those things they put your bill inside. I would rather carry around an iPad mini to take orders, and bill the customer. I can also see the iPad as a system to put in taxi cabs and and retail stores, since it is small, thin, and lightweight.
I can also see it being used in a lot of business related tasks. It may not have all of the best specs, but I think Apple wanted to keep the thickness and weight down as well as good battery life and processor speed wasn't the biggest problem since it's a fast enough processor for iOS.
I have to give Microsoft some credit for at least coming up with a design that most reviewers are showing has lots of potential and maybe even some features both Apple and Google could learn from. But comments like calling the iPad a "recreational" tablet is rich coming from a company that is nearly six years late on the modern mobile movement. I think it's fair to say that Apple wasn't looking at the enterprise market closely when the iPad was first introduced. But Enterprise users had other plans for it. And even now Apple recognizes it with it's "Ipads in Business" tab on their web site.
My company had its huge computer show a few weeks ago in San Francisco (you can guess which one it was). All of our customers are looking to mobile as the next wave of enterprise computing. Everyone is using and developing for iOS first and Android second. Windows 8 wasn't even being discussed by anyone. We'll see if that changes next year. But right now, I think most corporate IT is happy that they finally transitioned to Windows 7 after far too long on Windows XP. No one is really interested in pushing to the next Windows just yet and if previous patterns persist, I don't think anyone is going to seriously deploy Windows 8 in enterprise for at least a year.
That means that Windows 8 really has to make inroads with the RT version in the tablet space in order to get visibility quickly. One thing for sure...neither Apple or Google are standing still. Should be fun to watch.
What feature do you think the RT tablet has that is worth checking out? a kickstand? a keyboard cover? Trivial. I think the only thing Apple should be doing differently is continually accelerate the processors they put inside these things and use PVD coating instead of anodizing aluminum. Other than that. Not much else they need to do differently.
Does it really matter what the executives say about rival products? Especially if they appear uninformed about what they are talking about. Cook called the surface compromised and confusing. Does it really matter he says? To me, it would matter more how the product helps its users, consumer and enterprise, do the things they want them to do. The iPad has proven itself to be a very helpful device on both fronts and that is the reason why it has been successful. If users find the surface adequate to their needs, it will do well. If it doesn't, then it won't and will be another embarrassment for MSFT.
The reviews of the Surface would seem to indicate it has a way to go, not as much on the hardware end which people seem to like, but on the software end. This might be able to be fixed unless the compromises that MSFT made in coming up with Windows8 make that very difficult. It will be interesting to see how this all goes and what the sales figures are for the Surface and when and what MSFT chooses to disclose. If MSFT talks about product shipped, that is a bad sign. If it talks about product sold, that would be better. What number would MSFT have to have sold in order to be impressive to people over the first weekend/week? If they sold over a half million, I would be impressed with that number. 250K might be an OK number but less than that would probably not be a good sign. Since there are not many MSFT stores out there and the lines would not seem to indicate a sustained demand for the product, it will come down to the product bought online. Anyone know any UPS/FedEx drivers and if they are as busy with Surface tablets as they are when a new iPhone ships?
Comments
Wow, you sound like a first rate a-hole.
J.
The whole "recreational" tablet, and the "media" tablet appellation before that is Microsoft's way of trying to create a separate product category for their tablets. If they can avoid having their "tablet" offerings compared to Apple's, by attaching a different label to them, they can be the leader in "productivity" tablets, even if that's a pyrrhic victory.
But, I have to agree with an earlier comment that these are designed to be the new netbooks, and, as such, they'll be even worse than a netbook for "productivity". As a tablet, they won't be much for "recreation", either.
When you are designing devices, you always have to choose between compromise and dedication to purpose. A 27" iMac represents dedication to productivity. The iPhone represents a dedication to portability. The design of each, from the hardware to the OS and apps, represents these commitments. MacBooks are a compromise device skewed toward productivity. iPads are compromise devices skewed toward portability, with the Mini even more so. Apple has a clear vision of what each of these devices is and their designs reflect that, each fulfilling its purpose admirably.
Microsoft suffers from two problems. The first is their obsession with the "Windows everywhere" philosophy, which, first, made them design their mobile software as a scaled down version of Windows 95, then, to design their desktop software as a scaled up version of Windows Phone. The latter decision seems as big a mistake as the former. Their second problem, related to the first, is a lack of understanding of the idea of designing to purpose. Thus, they repeat the same mistakes over and over, trying to make all devices be the same, and ignoring the principle that different devices have different purposes. Their mistake with the Surface is not committing to what the device ought to be but attempting to impose a paradigm on it that doesn't fit its nature.
In other words, it's just another compromise device from Microsoft where they've made all the wrong compromises.
I got it to zero in a very short time and very happy to bring the windows boxes to the dump.
Even got Mac minis at work now.
J.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick Applebaum
Sinofski will be gone by June 2013!
Bad, bad job!
I get the feeling that at one point there was a massive feud between Ballmer and Sinofsky, and the latter just gave in with probably with a wave of the hand and an "I don't give a shit anymore."
I have to give Microsoft some credit for at least coming up with a design that most reviewers are showing has lots of potential and maybe even some features both Apple and Google could learn from. But comments like calling the iPad a "recreational" tablet is rich coming from a company that is nearly six years late on the modern mobile movement. I think it's fair to say that Apple wasn't looking at the enterprise market closely when the iPad was first introduced. But Enterprise users had other plans for it. And even now Apple recognizes it with it's "Ipads in Business" tab on their web site.
My company had its huge computer show a few weeks ago in San Francisco (you can guess which one it was). All of our customers are looking to mobile as the next wave of enterprise computing. Everyone is using and developing for iOS first and Android second. Windows 8 wasn't even being discussed by anyone. We'll see if that changes next year. But right now, I think most corporate IT is happy that they finally transitioned to Windows 7 after far too long on Windows XP. No one is really interested in pushing to the next Windows just yet and if previous patterns persist, I don't think anyone is going to seriously deploy Windows 8 in enterprise for at least a year.
That means that Windows 8 really has to make inroads with the RT version in the tablet space in order to get visibility quickly. One thing for sure...neither Apple or Google are standing still. Should be fun to watch.
Check email? Yes
Go on the web? Yes
Type a letter? Yes
Create a spreadsheet? Yes
Prepare and run a 'PowerPoint'? Yes
Use an external keyboard? Yes
Video chat? Yes
VoIP? Yes (I assume there's such software for RT)
Can the RT read books, view videos, connect to cell data.
Can I use it as an on site camera monitor to verify shots when I'm ot in video village. Can I take a photo and annotate it in a 'journal' or such to log what costumes, hairstyles etc we used in the shot. Can my script supervisor use the RT to take notes for the shot log. Csnmy cinematographer. These are part of my business and I can do them on the iPad, have since the iPad 2 and we are getting Minis for those that are literally running around the set because although the full size iPad worked, we want to give folks the option cause the mini should be an easier fit in our tool bags.
That I can then also run Netflix etc is just a bonus. Although its also sometimes work since I'll watch older work to research a directors style if he's someone we haven't worked with before
So can I do that on the RT?
Quote:
Originally Posted by agramonte
Yeah, probably by the same idiot Executive we run into that do not understan the concept of a corporate Implementation manuel - and corporate fonts.
half my day is spent now rejecting presentations made on mickey mouse tablet apps with random font selection - we at least get a decent laugh when we open them.
everything of value is still produced on a real OS - either OSX or Windows.
I'll bet that at least 70% of those folks were sending you 'mickey mouse' presentations before the tablet was an issue, because they are just stupid in such regards. In fact they are probably the reason why that manual exists, the manual they still aren't following.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Santoanderson
Anyone who says they got an iPad or a Surface, or a Nexus purely for productive purposes is insane... or lying.
Neither. The issue is that you, like Microsoft, are too narrow in your definition of 'productive'. Not all businesses are spending 8 hours a day writing TPS reports and debating which cover to use.
Some of us are doing things like sinking Tony Stark's mansion into the Pacific Ocean. Very productive, very different needs. And yes we have been serving such needs for the last year on iPads and yes they were bought by our company just for said needs. Almost all of us have our own devices for personal use but we don't mix the two due to company rules
Quote:
Originally Posted by Apple ][
And is Microsoft implying that Windows 8 is targeted towards business users? Because the clown like, fisher price tiles looks like it's made for toddlers.
I don't see many businesses upgrading to Windows 8. Businesses that already use Windows will just stick with XP or 7. And Windows users are not exactly on the cutting edge, Touch Screens is a concept that is foreign to most of them.
Microsoft is targeting Windows 8 towards business users. The catch is that this isn't Windows 8, this is more like Windows 8 lite but they aren't mentioning that. They are 'mixing metaphors' shall we say. Much like some folks are claiming about Apple's UK statement where they say that they 'won' in Germany but apparently that is just the prelim and not the final judgment.
Hopefully businesses have done their research and realize they have to watch several more months for the more expensive hardware and software that will really be for them. Otherwise Microsoft will likely be hoist on their petard when folks get the RT, deem it crap and possibly go to the iPad in the meantime since it is out now, and the full Surface is date TBA.
Originally Posted by charlituna
Some of us are doing things like sinking Tony Stark's mansion into the Pacific Ocean.
Wait, you're working on Iron Man 3?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Suddenly Newton
Let's hope it has that ribbon interface. Then Surface RT's failure will be complete.
LOL. That ribbon is the singularly WORST paradigm I've ever dealt with. It makes you want to memorize all the key commands and go back to Word Perfect. I still remember how to print; Shift F7, F7, 1. I can just imagine someone trying to press that "more" triangle on the text settings to get to what they really wanted.
why is the 9.7 inch iPad called a 10" tablet while the 7.9" iPad is called a 7" tablet?
Step down from the tech Ivory Tower and you have ordinary folks, they probably work with PCs but in a none-tech business and in the past when it came to having a machine at home for emailing and web surfing pretty much the only choice was the same PC they have at work...
...and guess what, they resent it, it breaks down, gets viruses, the cheap components fail and the crap boxes look bad in the home and there's no IT dude to come and fix it or replace it like in the office.
Well now there's choices, Android, Apple and Amazon and guess what they're not focussing on creating machines for work - they're making machines for entertaining, socialising, communicating, and shopping.
Who wants to work at home?
Is there anything like Filemaker Pro + Filemaker Go for Windows RT tablets, and will there be anytime soon? Office RT does not include Access, and I suspect it may never will (huge legacy code mess?)
Filemaker Pro 12 may not scale as well as SQL based solutions which don't really exist on RT yet either, it is still very powerful and offers an interface and scripting language that rivals Hypercard in terms of being "easy to use". And with the advent of Filemaker Go on the iPad (and iPhone), powerful custom database/applications can be easily deployed to iPads and iPhone in businesses. Filemaker is easy to use but is not a dumbed down database solution (that title would go to Bento, also from Filemaker Inc.).
You cannot design databases directly on the iPad with FM Go, you have to do that on a Mac or Windows in "Desktop mode" meaning it won't run on RT either. I highly doubt that Filemaker Inc. (owned by Apple) will ever release something for the Metro/RT platform, so the Surface will end up having nothing comparable for the near future.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Santoanderson
Anyone who says they got an iPad or a Surface, or a Nexus purely for productive purposes is insane... or lying.
I find it to be highly productive, which is why I bought one. Am I insane? No. There are many apps that are not even available for the Mac that are available for the iPad, that help me excel in my job. The apps that are available for both Mac and iPad, are great so I can work on them in the field on my iPad and then sync them up with the Mac app where I could continue to work on them from there.
Here's what's funny. Ballmer makes a dumb statement for the media to hype. I just saw a video for Windows 8 and in the video they are showing apps that are basically some of the same apps that have already been on the iPad for years. Fruit NInja? That's a game, yet it was on Windows 8 ad. Hmmmmm.....
Now, the iPad mini is probably a great size for restaurants. If I was a water at a restaurant, that's basically the same size as those things they put your bill inside. I would rather carry around an iPad mini to take orders, and bill the customer. I can also see the iPad as a system to put in taxi cabs and and retail stores, since it is small, thin, and lightweight.
I can also see it being used in a lot of business related tasks. It may not have all of the best specs, but I think Apple wanted to keep the thickness and weight down as well as good battery life and processor speed wasn't the biggest problem since it's a fast enough processor for iOS.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sevenfeet
I have to give Microsoft some credit for at least coming up with a design that most reviewers are showing has lots of potential and maybe even some features both Apple and Google could learn from. But comments like calling the iPad a "recreational" tablet is rich coming from a company that is nearly six years late on the modern mobile movement. I think it's fair to say that Apple wasn't looking at the enterprise market closely when the iPad was first introduced. But Enterprise users had other plans for it. And even now Apple recognizes it with it's "Ipads in Business" tab on their web site.
My company had its huge computer show a few weeks ago in San Francisco (you can guess which one it was). All of our customers are looking to mobile as the next wave of enterprise computing. Everyone is using and developing for iOS first and Android second. Windows 8 wasn't even being discussed by anyone. We'll see if that changes next year. But right now, I think most corporate IT is happy that they finally transitioned to Windows 7 after far too long on Windows XP. No one is really interested in pushing to the next Windows just yet and if previous patterns persist, I don't think anyone is going to seriously deploy Windows 8 in enterprise for at least a year.
That means that Windows 8 really has to make inroads with the RT version in the tablet space in order to get visibility quickly. One thing for sure...neither Apple or Google are standing still. Should be fun to watch.
What feature do you think the RT tablet has that is worth checking out? a kickstand? a keyboard cover? Trivial. I think the only thing Apple should be doing differently is continually accelerate the processors they put inside these things and use PVD coating instead of anodizing aluminum. Other than that. Not much else they need to do differently.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alandail
why is the 9.7 inch iPad called a 10" tablet while the 7.9" iPad is called a 7" tablet?
The 9.7" iPad is called an iPad and the 7.9" iPad is called iPad mini. Neither are called "tablets" or "slates" or any of those names.
I find it amusing that the company that made a tablet to match wide-screen TV ratio, thinks the iPad is an "recreational device."
Does it really matter what the executives say about rival products? Especially if they appear uninformed about what they are talking about. Cook called the surface compromised and confusing. Does it really matter he says? To me, it would matter more how the product helps its users, consumer and enterprise, do the things they want them to do. The iPad has proven itself to be a very helpful device on both fronts and that is the reason why it has been successful. If users find the surface adequate to their needs, it will do well. If it doesn't, then it won't and will be another embarrassment for MSFT.
The reviews of the Surface would seem to indicate it has a way to go, not as much on the hardware end which people seem to like, but on the software end. This might be able to be fixed unless the compromises that MSFT made in coming up with Windows8 make that very difficult. It will be interesting to see how this all goes and what the sales figures are for the Surface and when and what MSFT chooses to disclose. If MSFT talks about product shipped, that is a bad sign. If it talks about product sold, that would be better. What number would MSFT have to have sold in order to be impressive to people over the first weekend/week? If they sold over a half million, I would be impressed with that number. 250K might be an OK number but less than that would probably not be a good sign. Since there are not many MSFT stores out there and the lines would not seem to indicate a sustained demand for the product, it will come down to the product bought online. Anyone know any UPS/FedEx drivers and if they are as busy with Surface tablets as they are when a new iPhone ships?