I can tell you knowing Scott that the leave would be amicable and one where he has planned for some time to allow him the opportunity to run his own start-up. I've known Scott since '96 so it makes sense for him to finally leave the nest from NeXT/Apple and try his own vision out from start to finish.
Best wishes. I know of several of my former colleagues working on start ups.
Finally, a response to the Forstall thing that isn't completely driven by pure ignorance and spewing hate for his supposed character flaws! Nothing like starting up to prove what you got. It's a harsh game.
Entirely speculative, but I wonder if Forstall wanted to do something on his own?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Elaborate? Fix in what way?
"They hate me! They hate me, and I don't know why. They don't appreciate my genius. Just the other day, I walked into an Apple Store and there were employees just standing around, TALKING to customers! What do they think we're paying them for? Man the registers or get out. And then, oh~, and then I said to Tim, I said, 'We could save a bundle if we only had one screen back there in the Genius bar instead of two, or no screens and one of those boards where you put the letters up individually,' and he just GLARED at me! I mean, yeah, he's CEO, but I'm the retail guy. I know these things!"
"Of course, dear."
…Who was in charge of creating iOS, their most popular platform to date.
Doing what needs to be done is all part of maturing. Jobs continued to do much of what he liked. However Ive shouldn't be compared point-by-point to Jobs. At least of his appearance outside the company, Ive has a personality of someone who inspires, who can argue persuasively and convincingly, and that people want to work with and please. That Ive is a designer with those qualities makes him well-suited to the position of Apple CEO.
Quote:
I liked Forstall's presentation skills, and he obviously did a HUGE amount for Apple, but we have all read stories how he had a big head, and was a pain in the ass to work with.
Like others have noted in this thread, Scott sounds more like Jobs (brilliant, presentation skills, big head, pain in the ass) than Sir Jon does, and I wouldn't bet against his return some day to "right the Ship of State"; it may well be that Tim is fulfilling a promise made to the late great CEO to protect his protege if internal strife rises against him in the "corridors of power", as is highly likely given the Mapsgate (and possibly the Skeumorphism) fiascos, hence his moving Scott closer to the aegis of his (Tim's) influence. That said, Apple does not need Forstall as an adversary in a rival company - OR THEN AGAIN, MAYBE THEY DO...
Oh I hope so! That skeuomorphic design approach needs to go... it's bloody awful. (works for Garageband though) The Calendar and Contacts apps need to focus on the user experience first and foremost. Apple has been losing it's way in that regard.
Here's a good (recent) article on iOS skeuomorphism. Here's a snippet:
Quote:
Will Apple’s Tacky Software-Design Philosophy Cause A Revolt?
Inside Apple, tension has brewed for years over the issue. Apple iOS SVP Scott Forstall is said to push for skeuomorphic design, while industrial designer Jony Ive and other Apple higher-ups are said to oppose the direction. "You could tell who did the product based on how much glitz was in the UI," says one source intimately familiar with Apple’s design process.
...
Béhar cites the example of Apple’s wooden digital bookshelves. "The digital bookshelf doesn’t really work like a bookshelf," he says. "You’re throwing all this extraneous visual noise at me and it’s confusing. My brain, which is used to the physical bookshelf, is confused because of the differences in usability. It’s cute, but not particularly useful."
In addition to being unhelpfully ostentatious, the visual metaphors are also outmoded in the eyes of many. Designer Gadi Amit, whose firm, NewDealDesign, designed the Lytro camera and Fitbit, points to the common use of the digital Rolodex to denote where contacts are stored. "I’m old enough, sure, but some of the guys in my office have never seen a Rolodex in real life," Amit says. "So these metaphors that were, in the early days of the computing revolution, relevant to assisting people in bridging the gap between the physical and digital worlds, are no longer necessary. Our culture has changed. We don’t need translation of the digital medium in mechanical real-life terms. It’s an old-fashioned paradigm."
Says the former senior UI designer at Apple, "I feel like [Apple] has concentrated too much on mimicking the visual skeuomorphic approach rather than concentrating on the actual functionality." For example, in iOS 6, the latest version of Apple’s mobile operating system, Forstall recently demoed an animated paper shredder, which will be used to delete e-tickets and coupons. How many iPhone users have ever actually seen a paper shredder in real life? Is it necessary? Or just visual masturbation? "To me, it’s lipstick on a pig," says the source intimately familiar with Apple’s design process. "There’s no need to add glitter if the product can stand on its own."
I know Forestall wasn't popular with the other VP's at Apple and i find him rather odd, but i hope there more to this than Mapgate which i think was over blown by a lazy press eager to drive a negative story on the top selling gadget of the year. the new Maps has worked mostly great for me and as advertised. The new iOS Contacts app on the other hand is completely unusable..
Oh yeah and that empty suit Browett can et the door hit him on the way out.
Forestall has been sacked because of Mapgate. A bridge that appears to be melting (the horror!) and a misspelled city or two (Oh my God!—I can’t remember how to get to work!) have caused an unmitigated consumer confidence catastrophe. No faith nor trust in Apple remain, no one will upgrade to iOS 6, no one will buy the new iPad Mini, top executives are selling stock and jumping ship in droves. This is what every pundit has so long predicted: THE END OF APPLE FOREVER.
I don't think "Mapgate" was all that bad either, but it clearly was bad enough for TC to stand up and apologize. It's possible that TC planned that all along, but I doubt it. I think it was an unpleasant surprise for him.
Forstall has been an increasing problem. He is apparently not a well liked person. Furthermore, his efforts in iOS development have, in my opinion, been underwhelming. Siri does remarkably very little more than it did when introduced as a Beta. (Now that I think of it, that release of it as Beta had to be a black mark against him). Mr. Browett did not seem well suited to his job or the company. To hear that Mr. Ive will pay some attention to the software interface design is wonderful news. Hopefully, these moves will eliminate some internal sources of conflict and make for a better functioning team in the coming couple of years.
I like all the trolls jumping in here proclaiming Forstall was 'holding iOS back'. Unbelievable. Didn't SJ promise him that he'd 'always have a place' at Apple before he left? I guess not.
Forstall was the only guy I could see carrying SJ's torch, and his presence at the company is what made SJ's departure/death easier to swallow. I always saw him as 'getting it' more than anyone else. I really want to know who initiated this departure, and the reasons for it. Everything being spouted here and other places online are pure bullshit speculation. I want to know the real reasons. Apple's speed of innovation post-iOS has been the fastest and most intense in its history, despise what all the short-sighted people here say.
It's also disgusting that he's being lumped in with the John Browett departure, putting them in the same boat, as if theres any comparison between the two. And not a single statement from Cook of thanks, etc, or aknowledgement to Forstall in that release for his massive role at Apple. Just a 'shifting' of management. What a lack of class and respect for what the guy has done. Whats worse are the armchair analysts here proclaiming how Forstall has been an 'increasing problem' at Apple, as if they know the first thing about anything that goes o there, talking completely out of their ass. The attacks on his character and appearance are also classy. Keep it up guys.
Browett was obviously not going to last. He was a mistake and no one could really deny that. I think Forstall must have been a more complicated matter. He was reputed to see himself as Jobs protege but without Jobs charisma. Talented and egotistical and not afraid to step on those below and stab those beside and ahead. But without the ability to inspire that sort of personality without a Jobs to keep him in check is going to bump heads with everyone.
adjectivetreating serious issues with deliberately inappropriate humor; flippant.DERIVATIVESfacetiously adverb,facetiousness nounORIGIN late 16th cent. (in the general sense ‘witty, amusing’): from French facétieux, from facétie, from Latin facetia ‘jest,’from facetus ‘witty.’
I liked Forstall's presentation skills, and he obviously did a HUGE amount for Apple, but we have all read stories how he had a big head, and was a pain in the ass to work with.
Like others have noted in this thread, Scott sounds more like Jobs than Sir Jon does, and I wouldn't bet against his return some day to "right the Ship of State"; it may well be that Tim is fulfilling a promise made to the late great CEO to protect his protege if internal strife rises against him, as is likely given the Mapsgate furore, hence his moving Scott closer to the aegis of his (Tim's) influence; Apple does not need Forstall as an adversary in a rival company - OR THEN AGAIN, MAYBE THEY DO...
If we're talking king-of-france like behavior, Forstall is probably more like Jobs, but that's not what made Apple products cool. Jobs made Apple products cool through presentation and persuasiveness. Ive does the same. (of course, no one will ever beat Jobs' RDF). Forstall is not cool, though, not in any way.
I'm not sure where Scott was on this, but Johnny is definitely on the record for his dislike for the UI elements that look like real elements - game centre, calendar etc.
He is "on the record"? As far as I know it was one journalist, from the Guardian I think, who interpreted a grimace of Ive's when he was asked him a question about s'morphs. Could have been that Ive thought the question was rude or impertinent, not that he had anything particular against the interface design.
The meme took off from there, everyone parroting what they thought Ive thought, based on what this journalist thought.
If I'm wrong, I'd love to see "the record."
Edit: Gruber's post on this has more to say about it. It was Richmond from the Telegraph, and it's his opinion, clearly. There's other hearsay that Gruber notes.
Written like a complete fool who knows nothing of Scott's background as former AppKit Chief and more. No one person holds back a single piece of product unless we're talking about not passing the Steve Test.
I don't think that assessment warranted that 'fool' comment. Very many execs have made incredible contributions and just, I dunno, kinda lose it a bit. No one here really knows what happened. It's almost as if Scott was out spending his millions and lost focus. Just joking-but something happened. Perhaps it was the loss of Steve, perhaps he didn't want his team merged with the Mac team, perhaps his team couldn't keep up with the needed pace of innovation. I dunno: I simply have been increasingly happy with OS X and decreasingly happy with iOS.
Here's just a minor one:
Reminders had a great feature in iOS 5 where, once in Reminders app, I could swipe right-to-left to switch between different Reminders categories (Personal, Professional, etc.). It was brilliant, so I began using Reminders each day, throughout the day, for the first time. Now, in iOS 6, whenever I change a category, I need to tap a drop-down list icon, tap the category, and edit the reminder. It seems minor, but in many instances, the UI sees to have gotten less simple and more complicated. It appears to be a trend I noticed. Since those decisions go to Scott's hands-on leadership, or dearth thereof, the buck stops with him.
And guess what, if Eddy Cue and his team can't get iTunes into shape with iTunes 11, I'll be left with more of an impression that Apple has been unable to tie-up loose UI and UX ends in their internet software and services.
Some have compared Forstall to Steve Jobs in his attention to detail and ability to piss everyone off. While I'm surprised that he's leaving, I'll look at it as a glass half-full and simply say that Forstall (like Jobs) will be gone, he'll start up some other technology company (like NeXT) which will be eventually bought by Apple and integrated / replaced as their next OS (OSXI??) and (again) a new world-order will blossom.
As far as Browett goes, I hope the door hits his a$$ on the way out. Good riddance. Tim Cook could/should have done better in picking the retail guy.
Ah, I get you. I agree, at least partially. Reminders is fine, in my book. Tone down the texture a little. But it's intended to be like one of those old ring-bound flip up notepads, and it does that pretty well.
I had just begun to use the Reminders app in iOS 5. In iOS6, however, the ability to swipe right-to-left between Reminders lists was lost. Now, I need to tap a drop down list in the upper-left corner and the switch to a new list-ruined it for me. That lost iOS 5 feature borked my workflow.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer
I can tell you knowing Scott that the leave would be amicable and one where he has planned for some time to allow him the opportunity to run his own start-up. I've known Scott since '96 so it makes sense for him to finally leave the nest from NeXT/Apple and try his own vision out from start to finish.
Best wishes. I know of several of my former colleagues working on start ups.
Finally, a response to the Forstall thing that isn't completely driven by pure ignorance and spewing hate for his supposed character flaws! Nothing like starting up to prove what you got. It's a harsh game.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bennytheball
Entirely speculative, but I wonder if Forstall wanted to do something on his own?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Elaborate? Fix in what way?
"They hate me! They hate me, and I don't know why. They don't appreciate my genius. Just the other day, I walked into an Apple Store and there were employees just standing around, TALKING to customers! What do they think we're paying them for? Man the registers or get out. And then, oh~, and then I said to Tim, I said, 'We could save a bundle if we only had one screen back there in the Genius bar instead of two, or no screens and one of those boards where you put the letters up individually,' and he just GLARED at me! I mean, yeah, he's CEO, but I'm the retail guy. I know these things!"
"Of course, dear."
…Who was in charge of creating iOS, their most popular platform to date.
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Scott has certainly, umm, not minimized his influence. We will never know the truth.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by aplnub
I still wonder why I can't scroll up (or down) the page like a PDF when reading a book.
Because you haven't installed iBooks 3.0 yet.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cpsro
Doing what needs to be done is all part of maturing. Jobs continued to do much of what he liked. However Ive shouldn't be compared point-by-point to Jobs. At least of his appearance outside the company, Ive has a personality of someone who inspires, who can argue persuasively and convincingly, and that people want to work with and please. That Ive is a designer with those qualities makes him well-suited to the position of Apple CEO.
Quote:
I liked Forstall's presentation skills, and he obviously did a HUGE amount for Apple, but we have all read stories how he had a big head, and was a pain in the ass to work with.
Like others have noted in this thread, Scott sounds more like Jobs (brilliant, presentation skills, big head, pain in the ass) than Sir Jon does, and I wouldn't bet against his return some day to "right the Ship of State"; it may well be that Tim is fulfilling a promise made to the late great CEO to protect his protege if internal strife rises against him in the "corridors of power", as is highly likely given the Mapsgate (and possibly the Skeumorphism) fiascos, hence his moving Scott closer to the aegis of his (Tim's) influence. That said, Apple does not need Forstall as an adversary in a rival company - OR THEN AGAIN, MAYBE THEY DO...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bilbo63
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Oh I hope so! That skeuomorphic design approach needs to go... it's bloody awful. (works for Garageband though) The Calendar and Contacts apps need to focus on the user experience first and foremost. Apple has been losing it's way in that regard.
#next_pages_container { width: 5px; hight: 5px; position: absolute; top: -100px; left: -100px; z-index: 2147483647 !important; }
Here's a good (recent) article on iOS skeuomorphism. Here's a snippet:
Quote:
Will Apple’s Tacky Software-Design Philosophy Cause A Revolt?
Inside Apple, tension has brewed for years over the issue. Apple iOS SVP Scott Forstall is said to push for skeuomorphic design, while industrial designer Jony Ive and other Apple higher-ups are said to oppose the direction. "You could tell who did the product based on how much glitz was in the UI," says one source intimately familiar with Apple’s design process.
...
Béhar cites the example of Apple’s wooden digital bookshelves. "The digital bookshelf doesn’t really work like a bookshelf," he says. "You’re throwing all this extraneous visual noise at me and it’s confusing. My brain, which is used to the physical bookshelf, is confused because of the differences in usability. It’s cute, but not particularly useful."
In addition to being unhelpfully ostentatious, the visual metaphors are also outmoded in the eyes of many. Designer Gadi Amit, whose firm, NewDealDesign, designed the Lytro camera and Fitbit, points to the common use of the digital Rolodex to denote where contacts are stored. "I’m old enough, sure, but some of the guys in my office have never seen a Rolodex in real life," Amit says. "So these metaphors that were, in the early days of the computing revolution, relevant to assisting people in bridging the gap between the physical and digital worlds, are no longer necessary. Our culture has changed. We don’t need translation of the digital medium in mechanical real-life terms. It’s an old-fashioned paradigm."
Says the former senior UI designer at Apple, "I feel like [Apple] has concentrated too much on mimicking the visual skeuomorphic approach rather than concentrating on the actual functionality." For example, in iOS 6, the latest version of Apple’s mobile operating system, Forstall recently demoed an animated paper shredder, which will be used to delete e-tickets and coupons. How many iPhone users have ever actually seen a paper shredder in real life? Is it necessary? Or just visual masturbation? "To me, it’s lipstick on a pig," says the source intimately familiar with Apple’s design process. "There’s no need to add glitter if the product can stand on its own."
http://www.fastcodesign.com/1670760/will-apples-tacky-software-design-philosophy-cause-a-revolt
Oh yeah and that empty suit Browett can et the door hit him on the way out.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MacManFelix
Forestall has been sacked because of Mapgate. A bridge that appears to be melting (the horror!) and a misspelled city or two (Oh my God!—I can’t remember how to get to work!) have caused an unmitigated consumer confidence catastrophe. No faith nor trust in Apple remain, no one will upgrade to iOS 6, no one will buy the new iPad Mini, top executives are selling stock and jumping ship in droves. This is what every pundit has so long predicted: THE END OF APPLE FOREVER.
I don't think "Mapgate" was all that bad either, but it clearly was bad enough for TC to stand up and apologize. It's possible that TC planned that all along, but I doubt it. I think it was an unpleasant surprise for him.
Mr. Browett did not seem well suited to his job or the company.
To hear that Mr. Ive will pay some attention to the software interface design is wonderful news.
Hopefully, these moves will eliminate some internal sources of conflict and make for a better functioning team in the coming couple of years.
I like all the trolls jumping in here proclaiming Forstall was 'holding iOS back'. Unbelievable. Didn't SJ promise him that he'd 'always have a place' at Apple before he left? I guess not.
Forstall was the only guy I could see carrying SJ's torch, and his presence at the company is what made SJ's departure/death easier to swallow. I always saw him as 'getting it' more than anyone else. I really want to know who initiated this departure, and the reasons for it. Everything being spouted here and other places online are pure bullshit speculation. I want to know the real reasons. Apple's speed of innovation post-iOS has been the fastest and most intense in its history, despise what all the short-sighted people here say.
It's also disgusting that he's being lumped in with the John Browett departure, putting them in the same boat, as if theres any comparison between the two. And not a single statement from Cook of thanks, etc, or aknowledgement to Forstall in that release for his massive role at Apple. Just a 'shifting' of management. What a lack of class and respect for what the guy has done. Whats worse are the armchair analysts here proclaiming how Forstall has been an 'increasing problem' at Apple, as if they know the first thing about anything that goes o there, talking completely out of their ass. The attacks on his character and appearance are also classy. Keep it up guys.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer
I nominate you for Darwin 2012.
facetious |f??s?SH?s|
adjectivetreating serious issues with deliberately inappropriate humor; flippant.DERIVATIVESfacetiously adverb,facetiousness nounORIGIN late 16th cent. (in the general sense ‘witty, amusing’): from French facétieux, from facétie, from Latin facetia ‘jest,’from facetus ‘witty.’
A blessing that Browett is leaving. I agree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by airmanchairman
Quote:
I liked Forstall's presentation skills, and he obviously did a HUGE amount for Apple, but we have all read stories how he had a big head, and was a pain in the ass to work with.
Like others have noted in this thread, Scott sounds more like Jobs than Sir Jon does, and I wouldn't bet against his return some day to "right the Ship of State"; it may well be that Tim is fulfilling a promise made to the late great CEO to protect his protege if internal strife rises against him, as is likely given the Mapsgate furore, hence his moving Scott closer to the aegis of his (Tim's) influence; Apple does not need Forstall as an adversary in a rival company - OR THEN AGAIN, MAYBE THEY DO...
If we're talking king-of-france like behavior, Forstall is probably more like Jobs, but that's not what made Apple products cool. Jobs made Apple products cool through presentation and persuasiveness. Ive does the same. (of course, no one will ever beat Jobs' RDF). Forstall is not cool, though, not in any way.
He is "on the record"? As far as I know it was one journalist, from the Guardian I think, who interpreted a grimace of Ive's when he was asked him a question about s'morphs. Could have been that Ive thought the question was rude or impertinent, not that he had anything particular against the interface design.
The meme took off from there, everyone parroting what they thought Ive thought, based on what this journalist thought.
If I'm wrong, I'd love to see "the record."
Edit: Gruber's post on this has more to say about it. It was Richmond from the Telegraph, and it's his opinion, clearly. There's other hearsay that Gruber notes.
http://daringforeball.net
I'm shocked Forstall is leaving
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer
Written like a complete fool who knows nothing of Scott's background as former AppKit Chief and more. No one person holds back a single piece of product unless we're talking about not passing the Steve Test.
I don't think that assessment warranted that 'fool' comment. Very many execs have made incredible contributions and just, I dunno, kinda lose it a bit. No one here really knows what happened. It's almost as if Scott was out spending his millions and lost focus. Just joking-but something happened. Perhaps it was the loss of Steve, perhaps he didn't want his team merged with the Mac team, perhaps his team couldn't keep up with the needed pace of innovation. I dunno: I simply have been increasingly happy with OS X and decreasingly happy with iOS.
Here's just a minor one:
Reminders had a great feature in iOS 5 where, once in Reminders app, I could swipe right-to-left to switch between different Reminders categories (Personal, Professional, etc.). It was brilliant, so I began using Reminders each day, throughout the day, for the first time. Now, in iOS 6, whenever I change a category, I need to tap a drop-down list icon, tap the category, and edit the reminder. It seems minor, but in many instances, the UI sees to have gotten less simple and more complicated. It appears to be a trend I noticed. Since those decisions go to Scott's hands-on leadership, or dearth thereof, the buck stops with him.
And guess what, if Eddy Cue and his team can't get iTunes into shape with iTunes 11, I'll be left with more of an impression that Apple has been unable to tie-up loose UI and UX ends in their internet software and services.
Some have compared Forstall to Steve Jobs in his attention to detail and ability to piss everyone off. While I'm surprised that he's leaving, I'll look at it as a glass half-full and simply say that Forstall (like Jobs) will be gone, he'll start up some other technology company (like NeXT) which will be eventually bought by Apple and integrated / replaced as their next OS (OSXI??) and (again) a new world-order will blossom.
As far as Browett goes, I hope the door hits his a$$ on the way out. Good riddance. Tim Cook could/should have done better in picking the retail guy.
Perhaps MSNBC will hire Forstall as a body double for Rachel Maddow
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
Ah, I get you. I agree, at least partially. Reminders is fine, in my book. Tone down the texture a little. But it's intended to be like one of those old ring-bound flip up notepads, and it does that pretty well.
I had just begun to use the Reminders app in iOS 5. In iOS6, however, the ability to swipe right-to-left between Reminders lists was lost. Now, I need to tap a drop down list in the upper-left corner and the switch to a new list-ruined it for me. That lost iOS 5 feature borked my workflow.