I think iOS7 is going to make or break the iPhone for a lot of people. iOS6 to me was the least interesting, least innovative update yet, messing with and kind of clunking up things like app store, podcasts, maps, relatively useless ticket app, ugly icon tiles for facebook twitter print etc, lack of widget and lock screen customization. None of it is terrible, but none of it's A anymore. Feels like nobody is talking over there, nobody managing it all. This is all coming from a huge apple fan, who's used an iPhone since 3G. It seems like they're struggling lately, the new iTunes 11 having issues, maps of couse, whatever is going on with Ive taking over Forstall. They need to seriously come out with a massive iOS7, not just a few tiny tweeks, to convince people they're still number one. The hardware's always been great, but we've hit a point where it's all about the software. They're coasting on 3rd party apps, but they've got more power than anyone, can do whatever they want, can hire whoever they want to help, and they're playing things way too safe.
I think Apple may feel this way too, even if they won't admit it. I'll be very interested to see what changes Ive makes to iOS. However, I have to say, no matter if you're using Android, iOS or Windows, any OS will eventually get boring. One thing I like about Apple is that they look before they leap - usually. Maps broke that trend, it appears. Or maybe Siri did, I don't know.
Bottom line, for me I am more curious about the changes coming up in the mobile payments arena. I expect (hope) that Apple is up to something big in iOS 7
I'm less sanguine about Eddy Cue's ability to fix Maps than I'd like to be. His previous "successes" include iTunes (ubiquitous, but bloated and increasingly unmanageable, it's really Apple's MS Office) and iCloud (better than its predecessor perhaps, but still widely reviled for it's bugs, data corruption issues, downtime, odd limitations and general unreliability). Why would anyone think this is the guy to fix Maps?
To me one of the key things about the Maps issue was almost completely missed by the press and most commentators - the fact that when Apple put out a list of recommended mapping apps in the app store they omitted TomTom from it. Given that TomTom are one of the main suppliers of mapping data for Apple's Maps that seemed like a pretty clear statement by Apple as to where they thought the blame lay for the problems. Apple saw the problem as bad data supplied by TomTom. Now we hear TomTom have been 'prodded' by Eddie to fix the data they're supplying to Apple. I'll bet they have!
This is most likely why Scott Forstall wouldn't sign any public apology, as far as he was concerned the problem wasn't Apple's, it was (mostly anyway) TomTom's fault and he wanted them to fix their end first. Hence their omission from the app store 'recommended apps' list. Unfortunately for him he now had few friends left in the executive suites and they took advantage of this to get rid of him.
If Forstall pressuring TomTom by omitting them from the list of recommended apps and Eddie's additional "prodding" (whatever that involves) doesn't work to Apple's satisfaction I expect this dispute will end up in court. From Apple's perspective they are paying good money for mapping data from one of the leading companies in the field, it should be the same data TomTom use in their own highly regarded mapping apps, but it's apparently not. It's full of errors and embarrassment for Apple. That's got to upset them and have them itching to start throwing lawyers at the problem.
I disagree re TomTom (I think that a lot of the mapping vendors use TomTom data). I certainly agree re iCloud: it is truly awful compared to, e.g., Dropbox.
I am not sure about this. I think Cook may stick around for quite a while because he is the keeper of Steve's vision and I believe he is managing the ship quite well. To hold the fact that he has not clearly signalled where Apple is going against him is unfair. He has signalled that Apple is continuing in the direction that is well laid out for the time being. No change of direction required. And yet I feel that the future will show that by getting rid of Forstall and handing wider responsibilities to Cue and Ive, among others, he has quite clearly showed us that he is indeed steering Apple. As usual, where to we won't know until after the fact. It was the same with Steve, and remember that Steve didn't always do the right thing.
Where you and I differ is that I don't think enough time has passed to show us one way or another if Cook can hold the ship together on his own. Running the show with Steve still in the picture and running the show entirely without Steve may be two different things.
Someone brought up the apology letter which, to me, is ironic. All the apology letter said to me was, "I'm not exactly sure what I'm doing but I'm giving it my best". I said as much when the letter was released. As good as he may be about running supply chains that letter alone has given me pause about Cook.
What does it matter? A decision was taken (presumably by the CEO), and any refusal is insubordination.
I recall an old story from back in the '80s. Steve wanted Sony* drives for the Macintosh, but one of his engineers knew they couldn't do it in time, in volume, and in quality. So without Steve's knowledge he went and got drives made from another company*. Steve found out far too late to do anything about it, and he was amicable with the decision once he saw that Sony* truly couldn't have done it in time.
*May have been the other way around. I use 'recall' in the ironic sense.
Originally Posted by igriv
That would have been a bogus reason: "Google is charging us too much, so we are going to screw you guys [the users] over. Have a nice day!"
N…o.
The right thing would have been to allow the users the choice between the (beta) Apple product and the Google product for another year, until iOS 7.0, and eat the licensing fee for that period (apple can certainly afford it).
Except the Google deal runs out before iOS 7's launch.
In a year, with the benefit of user feedback, Maps would have been (and will be, one hopes) a much better product.
Oh, so you admit that all this is meaningless anyway, and that Maps is going to improve whether Google likes it or not.
Siri is Beta the same way that Gmail is beta: it is in wide public release, and you will only know it's beta if you read the fine print. Plus, remember that the S in the 4S stands for Siri. It is correct that Siri is nowhere near ready for prime time, and it should NOT have been so hyped. I am sure Forstall paid for that too.
When Forstall demoed Siri and Maps they were flawless demos with no caveat that they were essentially beta products. It was a case of over promising and under delivering. Eddy Cue doesn't seem to me to be interested in being a showman ala Steve like Forstall was. So I think we'll get more realism from Cook and Cue.
Eddy isn't going to fool around on this one. He's going to use whatever resources he can grab to fix the Maps & Siri mess. Even if it might mean taking away engineers from iTunes and delaying a new version. Oh, looks like he already did that.
Forstall wasn't fired, but was demoted to make his life miserable so he quits on his own probably to negate him receiving some kind of parting money, though he's probably mule enough to stick it out to his end date while scheming what he's going to do outside Apple.
I think your last paragraph undermines your first paragraph.
By what leap of logic? In my first line I stated that the success of a project cannot be determined by a manager alone (or a CEO). In my last line I stated that there needs to be reliable people giving information to the manager for a project to succeed.
While indeed it's important for the manager to ensure they have the right people under them, the ultimate success/failure depends on both parties IMO. That is, unless the manager is willfully ignoring the information they are being given and making the wrong calls because of it (which I have seen happen).
Tim Cook's apology was lame. Moreover, it was mostly a reaction to the media. The product needs work especially outside of North America, but it was nowhere as bad as the media made it seem. Apple's biggest mistake was not releasing the product as a beta, like Siri.
Moreover, Jobs wouldn't have asked other managers to fall on their swords. Cook is the CEO. That is why he gets the big bucks. When something goes wrong, he should take the blame. He certainly shouldn't have apologized. instead, he should have just issued a statement outlining all the great new features, explaining Apple had to create a new product because of Google's unwillingness to allow Apple to innovate, and let people know Apple is aware there are some issues that need to be worked out and it really appreciates people's input.
Yeah that would've gone over great, blaming Google for a crappy maps app. :rolleyes: And by releasing that letter with his name on it Cook was taking responsibility, something Forstall should have done,
I think iOS7 is going to make or break the iPhone for a lot of people. iOS6 to me was the least interesting, least innovative update yet, messing with and kind of clunking up things like app store, podcasts, maps, relatively useless ticket app, ugly icon tiles for facebook twitter print etc, lack of widget and lock screen customization. None of it is terrible, but none of it's A anymore. Feels like nobody is talking over there, nobody managing it all. This is all coming from a huge apple fan, who's used an iPhone since 3G. It seems like they're struggling lately, the new iTunes 11 having issues, maps of couse, whatever is going on with Ive taking over Forstall. They need to seriously come out with a massive iOS7, not just a few tiny tweeks, to convince people they're still number one. The hardware's always been great, but we've hit a point where it's all about the software. They're coasting on 3rd party apps, but they've got more power than anyone, can do whatever they want, can hire whoever they want to help, and they're playing things way too safe.
Widgets? When did widgets become the holy grail of mobile operating systems? I agree that iOS 6 wasn't the best but I would guess people are using apps way more than their mobile OS so from Apple's perspective it's get the OS out of the way. People who are obsessed with tinkering and customizing go Android
By what leap of logic? In my first line I stated that the success of a project cannot be determined by a manager alone (or a CEO). In my last line I stated that there needs to be reliable people giving information to the manager for a project to succeed.
While indeed it's important for the manager to ensure they have the right people under them, the ultimate success/failure depends on both parties IMO. That is, unless the manager is willfully ignoring the information they are being given and making the wrong calls because of it (which I have seen happen).
So you are saying that the success of a project depends on a manager who is able to hire the right people?
Hmmmmm... sounds to me like you are saying that the manager has the responsibility to hire the right people... or do you think that the worker bees get together and hire the manager.
When I go into a restaurant/food take-out and the place is dirty, I never blame the workers... it's the manager's job to ensure that the work is being done properly... right down to ensuring the grout is clean in the tile.
... and, by the way, it sounds like you disagree with Tim Cook... after all, isn't this the exact reason why heads are rolling... execs aren't doing their job. Or do you think these guys should have been allowed to stay. You're confusing me with your leaps in logic.
this has to be the most overblown issue I've seen in a long time. Every time I've used it, the new Maps app works great. Far better than the old Google app.
Yep.
Faster, cleaner and I like the audible directions that Google kept off the iPhone.
ETA: As to using Bluetooth for phone calls while driving?
I think Apple's biggest mistake was not developing Siri and iOS Map as search engines. I've said it before, it is more than larger, corrected data sets, but to interpret user's intent and finding the best match.
What does this even mean? Maps is built on an extensible architecture that other developers can tie into. Are you saying there's no search functionality in their implementation? Can you reword your statement? And Siri as a search engine? Huh? lol
The "Beta" designation would have been the right move in hindsight. Given the hyper antagonism of the current environment that sort of "paranoia" is probably prudent.
What does it matter? A decision was taken (presumably by the CEO), and any refusal is insubordination.
I recall an old story from back in the '80s. Steve wanted Sony* drives for the Macintosh, but one of his engineers knew they couldn't do it in time, in volume, and in quality. So without Steve's knowledge he went and got drives made from another company*. Steve found out far too late to do anything about it, and he was amicable with the decision once he saw that Sony* truly couldn't have done it in time.
*May have been the other way around. I use 'recall' in the ironic sense.
That's very inspiring, but I am sure the guy knew he could be fired.
Originally Posted by igriv
That would have been a bogus reason: "Google is charging us too much, so we are going to screw you guys [the users] over. Have a nice day!"
N…o.
No what? What is different about what you are suggesting?
The right thing would have been to allow the users the choice between the (beta) Apple product and the Google product for another year, until iOS 7.0, and eat the licensing fee for that period (apple can certainly afford it).
Except the Google deal runs out before iOS 7's launch.
Deals are made to be extended...
In a year, with the benefit of user feedback, Maps would have been (and will be, one hopes) a much better product.
Oh, so you admit that all this is meaningless anyway, and that Maps is going to improve whether Google likes it or not.
Of course, but it is not at all meaningless. The question is whether iOS users are saddled with beta software (which was deceptively not called "beta")
By the way, sorry about the cut and paste, The software here seems to be a bit, umm, weak.
It is best to say "I'm sorry" even if you feel did not do anything wrong. If Forstall did that, and wasn't so rigid and egotistical, he would still be with Apple. He isn't Steve Jobs.
Ten years at Apple and no second chance? They could have just taken him off the project and assigned him somewhere else. So either they wanted to make a statement or there might be more to it.
You don't know how many "second chances" he might have already had. For all we know, this was the straw that broke the camels back.
Besides, this is the case when you get towards the top of an organization. When something goes well, you get more credit than you deserve (since the actual "work" tends to be done by others) and if something goes wrong, you get more of the blame than you deserve.
The reward is large salaries and stock options. The risk is losing your job. That's the deal.
You don't know how many "second chances" he might have already had. For all we know, this was the straw that broke the camels back.
Besides, this is the case when you get towards the top of an organization. When something goes well, you get more credit than you deserve (since the actual "work" tends to be done by others) and if something goes wrong, you get more of the blame than you deserve.
The reward is large salaries and stock options. The risk is losing your job. That's the deal.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by september11th
I think iOS7 is going to make or break the iPhone for a lot of people. iOS6 to me was the least interesting, least innovative update yet, messing with and kind of clunking up things like app store, podcasts, maps, relatively useless ticket app, ugly icon tiles for facebook twitter print etc, lack of widget and lock screen customization. None of it is terrible, but none of it's A anymore. Feels like nobody is talking over there, nobody managing it all. This is all coming from a huge apple fan, who's used an iPhone since 3G. It seems like they're struggling lately, the new iTunes 11 having issues, maps of couse, whatever is going on with Ive taking over Forstall. They need to seriously come out with a massive iOS7, not just a few tiny tweeks, to convince people they're still number one. The hardware's always been great, but we've hit a point where it's all about the software. They're coasting on 3rd party apps, but they've got more power than anyone, can do whatever they want, can hire whoever they want to help, and they're playing things way too safe.
I think Apple may feel this way too, even if they won't admit it. I'll be very interested to see what changes Ive makes to iOS. However, I have to say, no matter if you're using Android, iOS or Windows, any OS will eventually get boring. One thing I like about Apple is that they look before they leap - usually. Maps broke that trend, it appears. Or maybe Siri did, I don't know.
Bottom line, for me I am more curious about the changes coming up in the mobile payments arena. I expect (hope) that Apple is up to something big in iOS 7
Quote:
Originally Posted by dshan
I'm less sanguine about Eddy Cue's ability to fix Maps than I'd like to be. His previous "successes" include iTunes (ubiquitous, but bloated and increasingly unmanageable, it's really Apple's MS Office) and iCloud (better than its predecessor perhaps, but still widely reviled for it's bugs, data corruption issues, downtime, odd limitations and general unreliability). Why would anyone think this is the guy to fix Maps?
To me one of the key things about the Maps issue was almost completely missed by the press and most commentators - the fact that when Apple put out a list of recommended mapping apps in the app store they omitted TomTom from it. Given that TomTom are one of the main suppliers of mapping data for Apple's Maps that seemed like a pretty clear statement by Apple as to where they thought the blame lay for the problems. Apple saw the problem as bad data supplied by TomTom. Now we hear TomTom have been 'prodded' by Eddie to fix the data they're supplying to Apple. I'll bet they have!
This is most likely why Scott Forstall wouldn't sign any public apology, as far as he was concerned the problem wasn't Apple's, it was (mostly anyway) TomTom's fault and he wanted them to fix their end first. Hence their omission from the app store 'recommended apps' list. Unfortunately for him he now had few friends left in the executive suites and they took advantage of this to get rid of him.
If Forstall pressuring TomTom by omitting them from the list of recommended apps and Eddie's additional "prodding" (whatever that involves) doesn't work to Apple's satisfaction I expect this dispute will end up in court. From Apple's perspective they are paying good money for mapping data from one of the leading companies in the field, it should be the same data TomTom use in their own highly regarded mapping apps, but it's apparently not. It's full of errors and embarrassment for Apple. That's got to upset them and have them itching to start throwing lawyers at the problem.
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I disagree re TomTom (I think that a lot of the mapping vendors use TomTom data). I certainly agree re iCloud: it is truly awful compared to, e.g., Dropbox.
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Where you and I differ is that I don't think enough time has passed to show us one way or another if Cook can hold the ship together on his own. Running the show with Steve still in the picture and running the show entirely without Steve may be two different things.
Someone brought up the apology letter which, to me, is ironic. All the apology letter said to me was, "I'm not exactly sure what I'm doing but I'm giving it my best". I said as much when the letter was released. As good as he may be about running supply chains that letter alone has given me pause about Cook.
Originally Posted by igriv
What does it matter? A decision was taken (presumably by the CEO), and any refusal is insubordination.
I recall an old story from back in the '80s. Steve wanted Sony* drives for the Macintosh, but one of his engineers knew they couldn't do it in time, in volume, and in quality. So without Steve's knowledge he went and got drives made from another company*. Steve found out far too late to do anything about it, and he was amicable with the decision once he saw that Sony* truly couldn't have done it in time.
*May have been the other way around. I use 'recall' in the ironic sense.
Originally Posted by igriv
That would have been a bogus reason: "Google is charging us too much, so we are going to screw you guys [the users] over. Have a nice day!"
N…o.
The right thing would have been to allow the users the choice between the (beta) Apple product and the Google product for another year, until iOS 7.0, and eat the licensing fee for that period (apple can certainly afford it).
Except the Google deal runs out before iOS 7's launch.
In a year, with the benefit of user feedback, Maps would have been (and will be, one hopes) a much better product.
Oh, so you admit that all this is meaningless anyway, and that Maps is going to improve whether Google likes it or not.
Forstall wasn't fired, but was demoted to make his life miserable so he quits on his own probably to negate him receiving some kind of parting money, though he's probably mule enough to stick it out to his end date while scheming what he's going to do outside Apple.
Quote:
Originally Posted by island hermit
[/B]
I think your last paragraph undermines your first paragraph.
By what leap of logic? In my first line I stated that the success of a project cannot be determined by a manager alone (or a CEO). In my last line I stated that there needs to be reliable people giving information to the manager for a project to succeed.
While indeed it's important for the manager to ensure they have the right people under them, the ultimate success/failure depends on both parties IMO. That is, unless the manager is willfully ignoring the information they are being given and making the wrong calls because of it (which I have seen happen).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shameer Mulji
That would still be a stupid reason for letting go of someone with that level of skill & knowledge. He's an asset & could have been useful elsewhere.
You've never worked in a company bigger than 10-20 people, have you?
Never said it's not stupid. But it is extremely common (to the point where I doubt there are any companies where this does not happen).
So you are saying that the success of a project depends on a manager who is able to hire the right people?
Hmmmmm... sounds to me like you are saying that the manager has the responsibility to hire the right people... or do you think that the worker bees get together and hire the manager.
When I go into a restaurant/food take-out and the place is dirty, I never blame the workers... it's the manager's job to ensure that the work is being done properly... right down to ensuring the grout is clean in the tile.
... and, by the way, it sounds like you disagree with Tim Cook... after all, isn't this the exact reason why heads are rolling... execs aren't doing their job. Or do you think these guys should have been allowed to stay. You're confusing me with your leaps in logic.
Quote:
Originally Posted by alandail
this has to be the most overblown issue I've seen in a long time. Every time I've used it, the new Maps app works great. Far better than the old Google app.
Yep.
Faster, cleaner and I like the audible directions that Google kept off the iPhone.
ETA: As to using Bluetooth for phone calls while driving?
Driven to Distraction
http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/technology/series/driven_to_distraction/index.html
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mazda 3s
All I want to know is, where's iTunes 11?
The same place as Logic Pro X and any update to the iLife software? Apple has a lot of stuff to get out the door.
Quote:
Originally Posted by winstein2010
I think Apple's biggest mistake was not developing Siri and iOS Map as search engines. I've said it before, it is more than larger, corrected data sets, but to interpret user's intent and finding the best match.
What does this even mean? Maps is built on an extensible architecture that other developers can tie into. Are you saying there's no search functionality in their implementation? Can you reword your statement? And Siri as a search engine? Huh? lol
The "Beta" designation would have been the right move in hindsight. Given the hyper antagonism of the current environment that sort of "paranoia" is probably prudent.
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Originally Posted by igriv
What does it matter? A decision was taken (presumably by the CEO), and any refusal is insubordination.
I recall an old story from back in the '80s. Steve wanted Sony* drives for the Macintosh, but one of his engineers knew they couldn't do it in time, in volume, and in quality. So without Steve's knowledge he went and got drives made from another company*. Steve found out far too late to do anything about it, and he was amicable with the decision once he saw that Sony* truly couldn't have done it in time.
*May have been the other way around. I use 'recall' in the ironic sense.
That's very inspiring, but I am sure the guy knew he could be fired.
Originally Posted by igriv
That would have been a bogus reason: "Google is charging us too much, so we are going to screw you guys [the users] over. Have a nice day!"
N…o.
No what? What is different about what you are suggesting?
The right thing would have been to allow the users the choice between the (beta) Apple product and the Google product for another year, until iOS 7.0, and eat the licensing fee for that period (apple can certainly afford it).
Except the Google deal runs out before iOS 7's launch.
Deals are made to be extended...
In a year, with the benefit of user feedback, Maps would have been (and will be, one hopes) a much better product.
Oh, so you admit that all this is meaningless anyway, and that Maps is going to improve whether Google likes it or not.
Of course, but it is not at all meaningless. The question is whether iOS users are saddled with beta software (which was deceptively not called "beta")
By the way, sorry about the cut and paste, The software here seems to be a bit, umm, weak.
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If Forstall did that, and wasn't so rigid and egotistical, he would still be with Apple.
He isn't Steve Jobs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jfc1138
Yep.
Faster, cleaner and I like the audible directions that Google kept off the iPhone.
ETA: As to using Bluetooth for phone calls while driving?
Driven to Distraction
http://topics.nytimes.com/top/news/technology/series/driven_to_distraction/index.html
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Has it occurerd to you that you are not the only iOS user? And that being the case, Apple Maps might not be as satisfying to others?
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WonkoTheSane
Ten years at Apple and no second chance? They could have just taken him off the project and assigned him somewhere else. So either they wanted to make a statement or there might be more to it.
You don't know how many "second chances" he might have already had. For all we know, this was the straw that broke the camels back.
Besides, this is the case when you get towards the top of an organization. When something goes well, you get more credit than you deserve (since the actual "work" tends to be done by others) and if something goes wrong, you get more of the blame than you deserve.
The reward is large salaries and stock options. The risk is losing your job. That's the deal.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaulMJohnson
You don't know how many "second chances" he might have already had. For all we know, this was the straw that broke the camels back.
Besides, this is the case when you get towards the top of an organization. When something goes well, you get more credit than you deserve (since the actual "work" tends to be done by others) and if something goes wrong, you get more of the blame than you deserve.
The reward is large salaries and stock options. The risk is losing your job. That's the deal.
#next_pages_container { width: 5px; hight: 5px; position: absolute; top: -100px; left: -100px; z-index: 2147483647 !important; }Absolutely, plus, I am sure at this point he does not need to ever work again.
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