In an ideal world the stock price would reflect the fundamentals of a company, and to the extent it does you can pin it on the execs, but you see there are these people called speculators...
Oh jeez, some of the biggest sellers of Apple stock are traditional money managers. Was reported not long ago Fidelity was dumping out of one of its funds to buy more Google. There is barely any short interest. Funds are selling because they see better opportunity elsewhere, period.
$2-3 buck lower from here and IBM will have the crown as the most valuable tech company in the world.
>><span style="line-height:1.231;">You know, basically the continuation of the most successful string of product releases of any company in human history.</span>
See, that's why Apple is successful and no one else is. This. Couldn't. Be. Any. Less. Significant.>>
All done under the watch of Steve Jobs. By themselves, none of these executives have anything to show that they can or will be successful in the future, which partly explains why the stock has dropped like it has. The market has no confidence in any of these overpaid employees and certainly no confidence in Tim Cook. They were handed the most valuable tech company and most valuable company period in the world and have managed to lose more value than anyone could ever dream. Yet despite the value of the company at 2yr lows with the market at multi-year highs, none of these executives want to use their own money to buy Apple stock, which is very telling. Why should investors buy if the company or insiders won't (and don't give me the crap about the 10b buyback to offset options). Company doesn't think the stock is a good value and has to be a reason.
How clueless can one possibly be? Steve Jobs did not do what he did alone. What he did was build an incredible company with 10's of thousands of employees, an incredible culture of excellence driven by surprising us with incredible products, and a great management team. And fortunately for us all, it is a company not focused on quarterly results, but on delivering an unmatched ecosystem of hardware, software and services that is the envy of the tech industry. Ignorance must be bliss in trolldom.
That's not a very persuasive argument. If the stock was selling at $700 (as it was), do you think anyone would seriously begrudge these salaries? Indeed, in that scenario, would you have pinned it on the executives or the stock market?
I don't know to what extent the $700 price reflected fundamentals vs speculation. I don't think you can tell just from looking at a point in time. Perhaps if you look across time, and it is gradually and regularly growing each year, you would say that's fundamentals, but if it is up and down like a yo-yo you would say that's something else.
funny this, my sister (a CFO) was telling me that Investors sometimes ask her why she isn't making a dollar a year like the late Steve Jobs... Which is essentially boils her blood... so the fact that Apple's CFO is One of the highest-paid executives, should 'shut-up' that (those) Investors. (Of course she can't say that because it is not polite to say so) But any smart investor will not be saying that any more...
I don't know to what extent the $700 price reflected fundamentals vs speculation. I don't think you can tell just from looking at a point in time. Perhaps if you look across time, and it is gradually and regularly growing each year, you would say that's fundamentals, but if it is up and down like a yo-yo you would say that's something else.
Gosh, I don't think it was at all out of line with Apple's fundamentals at that price. On a forward basis, the P/E ratio (ex-cash) was still less than that of the market's! (One can get into a lot more detail, but that's as good an indicator as any).
Indeed, the shocking thing is how ridiculously low that number is today -- it is less than that of utilities and beer companies..... for any rational-thinking investor, it is impossible to ignore the fact that it betrays a tremendous lack of confidence in the company's management.
The question is not whether it is right or wrong, but it's just what it is.
If the market's assessment is wrong (as I totally believe it is), then it is incumbent upon the management -- esp. CFO and CEO -- to come out and convince the market why they think the market is wrong, via their product/market strategies and/ or their financial strategies, e.g., share repurchase.
It is inexcusable (to me) that they're coming off as sitting on their hands, or paralyzed, or uncaring -- whether they intend to do so or not.
NOPE. Try it again. But first explain how Steve Jobs did this when he was DEAD.
So maybe shut up and go read about why you're completely wrong when you say that. I mean just come OFF it.
Screw the "market". The actual market, you know, the people out there buying the products, certainly seem to think otherwise.
Good. Don't buy. Let them go private.
>>Good. Don't buy. Let them go private.>>
Keep dreaming. That's just foolish talk.
>>So maybe shut up and go read about why you're completely wrong when you say that. I mean just come OFF it.>>
Listen, I've invested billions of dollars for a living on behalf of institutional clients. I have had years of interactions with CEOs, CFOs, etc from companies across many industries. I can't recall a situation where a management team for a well-respected company looks so incapable, out of touch and aloof and yet make no effort to show that they have things under control. 'Trust us, don't worry about it' doesn't work when your company loses half its value with virtually every other company near all-time highs in value. Tim will look like a complete buffoon if they talk about slowing iPhone sales after he went out of his way last quarter to say analysts couldn't tell what was really happening via supply chain data points.
Another week, another multi-year low for Apple's valuation. About to take out 52 week low.
Anyway, what do they have to show for the humongous compensation they got? Stock tanked nearly 40% and none of them blinked an eye.
One of largest companies in the world making some of the best technology in the world with some of the highest profits in the world. I know, you want more reasons, right?
>>You know, basically the continuation of the most successful string of product releases of any company in human history.
See, that's why Apple is successful and no one else is. This. Couldn't. Be. Any. Less. Significant.>>
All done under the watch of Steve Jobs. By themselves, none of these executives have anything to show that they can or will be successful in the future, which partly explains why the stock has dropped like it has. The market has no confidence in any of these overpaid employees and certainly no confidence in Tim Cook. They were handed the most valuable tech company and most valuable company period in the world and have managed to lose more value than anyone could ever dream. Yet despite the value of the company at 2yr lows with the market at multi-year highs, none of these executives want to use their own money to buy Apple stock, which is very telling. Why should investors buy if the company or insiders won't (and don't give me the crap about the 10b buyback to offset options). Company doesn't think the stock is a good value and has to be a reason.
Right, because Steve ran every department, every meeting, every everything himself and these guys just stood there saying Yes Steve!
:SIGH: I really wish Apple could go privet so we could stop listening to things that don't matter. If you think every company stock is valued based on the company itself, you have little understanding about the stock market.
Right, because Steve ran every department, every meeting, every everything himself and these guys just stood there saying Yes Steve!
:SIGH: I really wish Apple could go privet so we could stop listening to things that don't matter. If you think every company stock is valued based on the company itself, you have little understanding about the stock market.
And right, I'm sure Apple and the current management team are incapable of making mistakes, incapable of resting on their laurels after becoming billionaires, infallible as it relates to predicting consumer demand?
I'm not saying Jobs did it all in the past. He led and people followed. He was passionate, people believed in him. From the outside, it appears Tim Cook has the personality and communication skills of a rock.
Since the stock started dropping, he's had numerous opportunities to articulate a go-forward strategy, articulate why he believed you "shouldn't bet against Apple" (said about 30% ago), but the reality is every time he's opened his mouth the last 6 months the stock drop accelerates because he can't communicate, he can't articulate why Apple is moving so slow on many fronts, why they don't want to use the cash for additional acquisitions to stimulate growth, why he doesn't believe the stock is a good investment for the company's cash. All he has to do is show he has an opinion. He doesn't seem capable so the market is implying that he is lost and the company is without direction or leadership.
One of largest companies in the world making some of the best technology in the world with some of the highest profits in the world. I know, you want more reasons, right?
You forgot, with a stock with one of the lowest valuations in the world, below that of HPQ, DELL, AMD, INTC and more than half the valuation metrics of GOOG. You are talking about the past. The market is forward looking and it doesn't like what is sees going forward.
What's the best college to major in CEO? Why was that degree not offered when I spoke to my high school counselor?
The closest related degree might be MBA, but the choice of school matters less, because most CEOs are either young and self-taught or work up the corporate ladder at an existing firm. They are almost never chosen based on their choice of school, but on their demonstrated abilities (and/or the confidence given to them by the board of directors).
One of the finest CEOs of the past two decades attended some calligraphy classes and dropped acid at Reed College before dropping out. I suggest starting there.
Listen, I've invested billions of dollars for a living on behalf of institutional clients. I have had years of interactions with CEOs, CFOs, etc from companies across many industries.
Funny, then, that you'd ignore everything they've done both before and after Steve's death.
…incapable, out of touch and aloof…
I'm looking at one right now.
Originally Posted by jdnc123
…he can't articulate why Apple is moving so slow on many fronts…
That's only because they aren't.
…why they don't want to use the cash for additional acquisitions to stimulate growth…
Because acquisitions don't stimulate growth.
All he has to do is show he has an opinion.
And all you have to show is why you think you deserve to know it.
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii
In an ideal world the stock price would reflect the fundamentals of a company, and to the extent it does you can pin it on the execs, but you see there are these people called speculators...
Oh jeez, some of the biggest sellers of Apple stock are traditional money managers. Was reported not long ago Fidelity was dumping out of one of its funds to buy more Google. There is barely any short interest. Funds are selling because they see better opportunity elsewhere, period.
$2-3 buck lower from here and IBM will have the crown as the most valuable tech company in the world.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram
That's not a very persuasive argument. If the stock was selling at $700 (as it was), do you think anyone would seriously begrudge these salaries? Indeed, in that scenario, would you have pinned it on the executives or the stock market?
I don't know to what extent the $700 price reflected fundamentals vs speculation. I don't think you can tell just from looking at a point in time. Perhaps if you look across time, and it is gradually and regularly growing each year, you would say that's fundamentals, but if it is up and down like a yo-yo you would say that's something else.
so the fact that Apple's CFO is One of the highest-paid executives, should 'shut-up' that (those) Investors. (Of course she can't say that because it is not polite to say so) But any smart investor will not be saying that any more...
Originally Posted by jdnc123
All done under the watch of Steve Jobs.
NOPE. Try it again. But first explain how Steve Jobs did this when he was DEAD.
By themselves, none of these executives have anything to show that they can or will be successful in the future…
So maybe shut up and go read about why you're completely wrong when you say that. I mean just come OFF it.
The market has no confidence in any of these overpaid employees and certainly no confidence in Tim Cook.
Screw the "market". The actual market, you know, the people out there buying the products, certainly seem to think otherwise.
Why should investors buy if the company or insiders won't…
Good. Don't buy. Let them go private.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ascii
I don't know to what extent the $700 price reflected fundamentals vs speculation. I don't think you can tell just from looking at a point in time. Perhaps if you look across time, and it is gradually and regularly growing each year, you would say that's fundamentals, but if it is up and down like a yo-yo you would say that's something else.
Gosh, I don't think it was at all out of line with Apple's fundamentals at that price. On a forward basis, the P/E ratio (ex-cash) was still less than that of the market's! (One can get into a lot more detail, but that's as good an indicator as any).
Indeed, the shocking thing is how ridiculously low that number is today -- it is less than that of utilities and beer companies..... for any rational-thinking investor, it is impossible to ignore the fact that it betrays a tremendous lack of confidence in the company's management.
The question is not whether it is right or wrong, but it's just what it is.
If the market's assessment is wrong (as I totally believe it is), then it is incumbent upon the management -- esp. CFO and CEO -- to come out and convince the market why they think the market is wrong, via their product/market strategies and/ or their financial strategies, e.g., share repurchase.
It is inexcusable (to me) that they're coming off as sitting on their hands, or paralyzed, or uncaring -- whether they intend to do so or not.
I like what the guy way above said: how come they don't have a major in CEO at school?
Because it's a nonsense job. At least, the value is utter nonsense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Tallest Skil
NOPE. Try it again. But first explain how Steve Jobs did this when he was DEAD.
So maybe shut up and go read about why you're completely wrong when you say that. I mean just come OFF it.
Screw the "market". The actual market, you know, the people out there buying the products, certainly seem to think otherwise.
Good. Don't buy. Let them go private.
>>Good. Don't buy. Let them go private.>>
Keep dreaming. That's just foolish talk.
>>So maybe shut up and go read about why you're completely wrong when you say that. I mean just come OFF it.>>
Listen, I've invested billions of dollars for a living on behalf of institutional clients. I have had years of interactions with CEOs, CFOs, etc from companies across many industries. I can't recall a situation where a management team for a well-respected company looks so incapable, out of touch and aloof and yet make no effort to show that they have things under control. 'Trust us, don't worry about it' doesn't work when your company loses half its value with virtually every other company near all-time highs in value. Tim will look like a complete buffoon if they talk about slowing iPhone sales after he went out of his way last quarter to say analysts couldn't tell what was really happening via supply chain data points.
Another week, another multi-year low for Apple's valuation. About to take out 52 week low.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rogifan
based on what?
Based on EV. Apple worth 259 billion, IBM worth 256 billion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by zoffdino
Anyway, what do they have to show for the humongous compensation they got? Stock tanked nearly 40% and none of them blinked an eye.
One of largest companies in the world making some of the best technology in the world with some of the highest profits in the world. I know, you want more reasons, right?
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdnc123
>>You know, basically the continuation of the most successful string of product releases of any company in human history.
See, that's why Apple is successful and no one else is. This. Couldn't. Be. Any. Less. Significant.>>
All done under the watch of Steve Jobs. By themselves, none of these executives have anything to show that they can or will be successful in the future, which partly explains why the stock has dropped like it has. The market has no confidence in any of these overpaid employees and certainly no confidence in Tim Cook. They were handed the most valuable tech company and most valuable company period in the world and have managed to lose more value than anyone could ever dream. Yet despite the value of the company at 2yr lows with the market at multi-year highs, none of these executives want to use their own money to buy Apple stock, which is very telling. Why should investors buy if the company or insiders won't (and don't give me the crap about the 10b buyback to offset options). Company doesn't think the stock is a good value and has to be a reason.
Right, because Steve ran every department, every meeting, every everything himself and these guys just stood there saying Yes Steve!
:SIGH: I really wish Apple could go privet so we could stop listening to things that don't matter. If you think every company stock is valued based on the company itself, you have little understanding about the stock market.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Getz
Right, because Steve ran every department, every meeting, every everything himself and these guys just stood there saying Yes Steve!
:SIGH: I really wish Apple could go privet so we could stop listening to things that don't matter. If you think every company stock is valued based on the company itself, you have little understanding about the stock market.
And right, I'm sure Apple and the current management team are incapable of making mistakes, incapable of resting on their laurels after becoming billionaires, infallible as it relates to predicting consumer demand?
I'm not saying Jobs did it all in the past. He led and people followed. He was passionate, people believed in him. From the outside, it appears Tim Cook has the personality and communication skills of a rock.
Since the stock started dropping, he's had numerous opportunities to articulate a go-forward strategy, articulate why he believed you "shouldn't bet against Apple" (said about 30% ago), but the reality is every time he's opened his mouth the last 6 months the stock drop accelerates because he can't communicate, he can't articulate why Apple is moving so slow on many fronts, why they don't want to use the cash for additional acquisitions to stimulate growth, why he doesn't believe the stock is a good investment for the company's cash. All he has to do is show he has an opinion. He doesn't seem capable so the market is implying that he is lost and the company is without direction or leadership.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Getz
One of largest companies in the world making some of the best technology in the world with some of the highest profits in the world. I know, you want more reasons, right?
You forgot, with a stock with one of the lowest valuations in the world, below that of HPQ, DELL, AMD, INTC and more than half the valuation metrics of GOOG. You are talking about the past. The market is forward looking and it doesn't like what is sees going forward.
The closest related degree might be MBA, but the choice of school matters less, because most CEOs are either young and self-taught or work up the corporate ladder at an existing firm. They are almost never chosen based on their choice of school, but on their demonstrated abilities (and/or the confidence given to them by the board of directors).
One of the finest CEOs of the past two decades attended some calligraphy classes and dropped acid at Reed College before dropping out. I suggest starting there.
Originally Posted by jdnc123
Listen, I've invested billions of dollars for a living on behalf of institutional clients. I have had years of interactions with CEOs, CFOs, etc from companies across many industries.
Funny, then, that you'd ignore everything they've done both before and after Steve's death.
…incapable, out of touch and aloof…
I'm looking at one right now.
Originally Posted by jdnc123
…he can't articulate why Apple is moving so slow on many fronts…
That's only because they aren't.
…why they don't want to use the cash for additional acquisitions to stimulate growth…
Because acquisitions don't stimulate growth.
All he has to do is show he has an opinion.
And all you have to show is why you think you deserve to know it.
The first rule of Project Mayhem is: do not talk about Project Mayhem.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdnc123
Based on EV. Apple worth 259 billion, IBM worth 256 billion.
Apple's market cap is currently a little over $396B. IBM's cap is about $235B.