Apple employs 4 of the top 5 highest paid execs in the US

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  • Reply 81 of 113
    jdnc123jdnc123 Posts: 233member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by anantksundaram View Post


    Oh, please QUIT IT with this nonsense. You're beating it to death-- no, after it's way past dead -- and if anything, detracting from the larger point you're trying to make.



    I don't think I am.  The market is giving Apple no value for its cash, so the cash it generates actually is decreasing the value of the company more than the stock price drop reflects.  Point I am making is same point Einhorn and others have made.....the cash isn't an asset of any value if management either doesn't know what to do with it, or is scared to based on their 'depression era' mentality (not my term).  


     


    There is actually quite an arb for the company right now....go issue a bunch of debt at a lower rate than your dividend yield and buyback the stock....on a cash basis, you actually save money.


     


    I'm not the only one bewildered that a CEO who said many months ago he doesn't need all the cash, can't come up with an idea what to do with it.


     


    Leaves the impression the next couple quarters are going to be really bad.   We will see next week.

  • Reply 82 of 113
    nikon133nikon133 Posts: 2,600member
    I don't know much about Apple's hierarchy.

    Coming from that oblivious point, I'd expect likes of Tim, Ive, Phil... to be top dogs in terms of earnings.

    Are those 4 guys really [B][I]THAT [/I][/B]important? They look a bit off-the-mill corporate execs, those with golden parachutes and top floor offices with guaranteed corporate jet options that are plaguing of most modern corporations. People who are there for good connections rather than personal value. In short, highly overrated and overpaid.

    I'm probably dead wrong here... or am I?
  • Reply 83 of 113
    igrivigriv Posts: 1,177member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jdnc123 View Post


    I don't think I am.  The market is giving Apple no value for its cash, so the cash it generates actually is decreasing the value of the company more than the stock price drop reflects.  Point I am making is same point Einhorn and others have made.....the cash isn't an asset of any value if management either doesn't know what to do with it, or is scared to based on their 'depression era' mentality (not my term).  


     


    There is actually quite an arb for the company right now....go issue a bunch of debt at a lower rate than your dividend yield and buyback the stock....on a cash basis, you actually save money.


     


    I'm not the only one bewildered that a CEO who said many months ago he doesn't need all the cash, can't come up with an idea what to do with it.


     


    Leaves the impression the next couple quarters are going to be really bad.   We will see next week.



     


    To put it slightly more succinctly, a low P/E is not so wonderful if all the E is going into a sock where you can't get to it.

  • Reply 84 of 113
    igrivigriv Posts: 1,177member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by nikon133 View Post



    I don't know much about Apple's hierarchy.



    Coming from that oblivious point, I'd expect likes of Tim, Ive, Phil... to be top dogs in terms of earnings.



    Are those 4 guys really THAT important? They look a bit off-the-mill corporate execs, those with golden parachutes and top floor offices with guaranteed corporate jet options that are plaguing of most modern corporations. People who are there for good connections rather than personal value. In short, highly overrated and overpaid.



    I'm probably dead wrong here... or am I?


     


    Tim is getting paid plenty in stock options -- it seems to be the standard thing in Silicon valleys for CEOs to get low salaries (though Tim's, in seven figures, is not exactly a pittance) and most of their comp in stock. 

  • Reply 85 of 113
    igrivigriv Posts: 1,177member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jdnc123 View Post


    I don't get your joke.  All I did was state facts that others didn't seem to grasp.  Apple has dropped > 50% in value since its peak while the markets and its closest peers increased in value.  That is reality.  If I was a wise investor, I wouldn't own so much Apple stock!



     


    Well, the last point is debatable -- many people (including, seemingly, the Greenlight people) believe that Apple has dropped far enough to have become a value proposition.

  • Reply 86 of 113
    igrivigriv Posts: 1,177member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by jdnc123 View Post


    Honestly don't know what this means.  Company is worth what people will pay for it.  Today, Apple is worth 259 billion and IBM is worth 257 billion.  That is the value of the company's today. 



     


    What he means is this: I have this old teddy bear, the market value of which is very close to zero, but I won't sell it at any price because it is of great sentimental value to me.

  • Reply 87 of 113
    igrivigriv Posts: 1,177member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post





    Apparently his compensation isn't required to be reported to the SEC.


     


    Because presumably he is being paid by Apple's british subsidiary? Since he is buying $20MM houses all over the world (one in SF, one in London), I assume he is not being stiffed too badly.

  • Reply 88 of 113
    igrivigriv Posts: 1,177member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by GTR View Post





    Exactly.



    You just don't get it.



    image


     


    What he is not getting is the old maxim (I don't get it either, vis-a-vis this forum): never try to teach a pig to sing -- it wastes your time, and annoys the pig.

  • Reply 89 of 113
    igrivigriv Posts: 1,177member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post





    You are correct here, the market doesn't like what it sees "going forward." (This cliché gives you away.)



    The market doesn't understand Apple. I would say the market is being stupid, but it may be too much to ask that the market be able to understand Apple.



    The same applies to you, since your fundamental erroneous assumption is that the market is right about Apple. I would say that you are being stupid, but it may be too much to ask that you be able to understand Apple.



    You say that TC has the personality of a rock. (This cliché also gives you away.) You said in another thread that Apple needs to do what Samsung is doing and shove out a bigger-screened phone. (Another impossible cliché . . . ) You say that Cook needs to map out Apple's future to reassure the market. (Another . . . )



    Apple and Cook's job is to concentrate on making their, our, "great products," and not pander to the stupid market. The more stupid the market become, the LESS Cook should be saying to it. The stupidity is beneath contempt, therefore beneath comment, from the stoic, solid man—and company—of character.



    Those investors with understanding have patience, and are antcipating how absolutely stupid the impatient and unseeing will be shown to be when the next round of insanely great products arrive. You may see this as a leap of faith, but those using their whole brain see that it's the typical Apple pattern of Zen serenity about their role that is at work. Cook already did his reassuring. All you have to do is listen.


     


    Yes, and keep pouring that Kool-Aid. Maybe they have a next round of insanely great products, maybe they do not. Tim  Cook saying they do means nothing (saying this is part of his job). The market does not believe it, and expresses the disbelief by valuation. You do believe it, and so you have a golden arb opportunity: just buy some Apple calls maturing in a couple of months and make a killing. If you are not doing that, you are just blowing smoke (while drinking the KoolAid) because Mr Market is voting with its cash.

  • Reply 90 of 113
    bigpicsbigpics Posts: 1,397member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post





    Apple and Cook's job is to concentrate on making their, our, "great products," and not pander to the stupid market. The more stupid the market become, the LESS Cook should be saying to it. The stupidity is beneath contempt, therefore beneath comment, from the stoic, solid man—and company—of character.



    Those investors with understanding have patience, and are antcipating how absolutely stupid the impatient and unseeing will be shown to be when the next round of insanely great products arrive. You may see this as a leap of faith, but those using their whole brain see that it's the typical Apple pattern of Zen serenity about their role that is at work. Cook already did his reassuring. All you have to do is listen.


     


    As the months go by and the world's largest tech company continues to release...  ...not much and certainly nothing that's more than modestly iterative....  ...this line about all the great stuff in the pipeline's getting thinner and thinner.


     


    And what's been released broke previous proclamations:  1. The 9.7" iPad was the "perfect size."  Apparently not.  2. One hand phone operation. Not truly possible for the average hand with the "stretch" form factor. 


     


    3. Or, like the 15" MBR, priced out of reach and the 13" graphically underpowered.  Or the case of Thunderbolt starting to look like the next Firewire when cheap USB3 devices are proving "good enough," and not even slapped onto the pro after years.   Even the new dock connector - requiring its own chipset - isn't an unqualified winner. 


     


    iWorks not updated.  The free apps suite fairly moribund as well.  The prof. photo processing app ditto.  Final Cut Pro X losing share.  iCloud flummoxing both users and developers.  Maps not given a beta label.  Siri no smarter. OS X becoming more opaque to traditional power users.  iOS looking dated. Resisting touch screens as alternate input method for when it makes sense on laptops means people running Win in VM Ware or Parallels are going to have less interest in Macs (I know the first iteration of Win 8's the next Vista, but the last Vista became the very successful Windows 7).  Etc. 


     


    So what's really new and insanely great except the best team of litigators in the industry?  It's not gonna be a watch, IMHO. 


     


    My sense is that Apple's been very focused on content deals focusing around, say, a streaming service and things related to video - and that they're having a tough time making headway.  I haven't bought a single song since free Spotify came along (and nicely integrated my iTunes Library).


     


    I've followed the PC industry since before it began.  And Apple was the most fascinating company of them all to follow all the way through Jobs' unfortunate early passing.  Since then, frankly, it seems more and more like just another RBC (really big corporation) every day, and one caught up in its past competencies and a web of code and a business model that was once ground-breaking but which seems to be becoming an anchor.



    Leadership is important even in companies with 10's of thousands of great employees.  Marissa Mayer seems to have injected a bit of it into a company I figured was down the tubes.  And if the leadership's executing at Apple (besides continuing to milk products which will age out and inevitably commodify), not really seeing the evidence.

  • Reply 91 of 113
    igrivigriv Posts: 1,177member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by GTR View Post


     


    The utter lack of understanding and ignorance that you have have displayed in your posts in this thread has been both astonishing and most amusing.


     


    I think you chose an appropriate career choice when you became an investor.



     


    What he is not understanding is that you cannot convince zealots.

  • Reply 92 of 113
    dasanman69dasanman69 Posts: 13,002member
    jdnc123 wrote: »
    I don't think I am.  The market is giving Apple no value for its cash, so the cash it generates actually is decreasing the value of the company more than the stock price drop reflects.  Point I am making is same point Einhorn and others have made.....the cash isn't an asset of any value if management either doesn't know what to do with it, or is scared to based on their 'depression era' mentality (not my term).  

    There is actually quite an arb for the company right now....go issue a bunch of debt at a lower rate than your dividend yield and buyback the stock....on a cash basis, you actually save money.

    I'm not the only one bewildered that a CEO who said many months ago he doesn't need all the cash, can't come up with an idea what to do with it.

    Leaves the impression the next couple quarters are going to be really bad.   We will see next week.

    The good thing is that a really bad quarter for Apple is still damn good compared to everyone else. Be cool chicken little because the sky is not falling.
  • Reply 93 of 113
    igrivigriv Posts: 1,177member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Richard Getz View Post


     


    One of largest companies in the world making some of the best technology in the world with some of the highest profits in the world. I know, you want more reasons, right? 



     


    Well, the total executive compensation at XOM is a quarter of what it is at AAPL, while their profit is higher, their market cap is bigger, and their operations are very complex, so those guys are not exactly sitting there clipping coupons.

  • Reply 94 of 113
    tallest skiltallest skil Posts: 43,388member


    Originally Posted by jdnc123 View Post

    I'm not the only one bewildered that a CEO who said many months ago he doesn't need all the cash, can't come up with an idea what to do with it.


     


    Because "doesn't need" instantaneously implies "absolutely must give it away immediately otherwise failure"? 

  • Reply 95 of 113
    igrivigriv Posts: 1,177member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Tallest Skil View Post


     


    Because "doesn't need" instantaneously implies "absolutely must give it away immediately otherwise failure"? 



     


    The cash is being eaten away by inflation, so he is screwing up to the tune of several billion dollars a year.

  • Reply 96 of 113
    dasanman69dasanman69 Posts: 13,002member
    igriv wrote: »
    The cash is being eaten away by inflation, so he is screwing up to the tune of several billion dollars a year.

    Much of it is earning interest, just a year ago it was 100 billion and now it's 137 billion. In my book that's damn good growth in a year.
  • Reply 97 of 113
    igrivigriv Posts: 1,177member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post





    Do I really have to spell out for you? We have a professional investor right here at hand, who thinks Apple should crank out a large-screen phone like six moths ago, just as if they were Samsung, so jdnc123 said in another thread recently.*



    As if Apple had their own chip and display fabs, their own army of nimble Korean engineers, their own top-down dictatorial management structure, all of which allow Samsung to churn out products like so much commodity. The companies couldn't be more different.



    Apple takes years to perfect a product, Samsung cranks them out. What could be simpler, and people like Horace Dediu get this, but the investment community? How many times have you seen it asked, where is Apple's big-screen phone?



    Enough said about this. jdnc123 is a textbook example of investors who don't get it, and you are just being your typical distracting gadfly self.



    *Edit: and here as well. I'm beginning to think he's more in the pro troll category, rather than pro investor. I doubt anyone can be this sincerely dense. If he's all that invested in AAPL, he's being suicidal with that investment. Cook fired in a year! Hah!


     


    How do you know he is a professional investor? Because he said "going forrward", and he knows what "enterprise value" is? The last means that he is more qualified to talk about apple's share price than you are, but does not necessarily make him a professional. In any case, different investors will have different opinions, and it is an empirical fact that the market (meaning, all of them together, through the auction system) value things more accurately than any other known method of valuing things. Look it up, it's quite interesting.


     


    Your second paragraph: are you trying to find excuses? Apple has, umm, a fair bit of influence over companies like Foxconn and Sharp, so they have no problems getting their designs fabbed (with the money they have, they could probably buy a controlling interest in samsung if it suited their interests).


     


    Third paragraph: see the first paragraph.


     


    Fourth paragraph: I don't know about jdnc123, as for me, you somewhat correct -- I hate zealotry and organized religion.


     


    Fifth: Why, because you disagree with him? I have a lot of Apple stock, doesn't mean I should only say good things about them. Otherwise, jdnc123's posts seem to be quite well reasoned and non-inflamatory, in sharp contrast to those of the so-called moderators here.

  • Reply 98 of 113
    igrivigriv Posts: 1,177member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by dasanman69 View Post





    Much of it is earning interest, just a year ago it was 100 billion and now it's 137 billion. In my book that's damn good growth in a year.


    You think the $37BN is interest?

  • Reply 99 of 113
    flaneurflaneur Posts: 4,526member
    igriv wrote: »
    Yes, and keep pouring that Kool-Aid. Maybe they have a next round of insanely great products, maybe they do not. Tim  Cook saying they do means nothing (saying this is part of his job). The market does not believe it, and expresses the disbelief by valuation. You do believe it, and so you have a golden arb opportunity: just buy some Apple calls maturing in a couple of months and make a killing. If you are not doing that, you are just blowing smoke (while drinking the KoolAid) because Mr Market is voting with its cash.

    Ok, so play the Kool-Aid card, the last refuge of the seasoned and mature Apple hater.

    Correct, maybe they don't have another round of insanely great products, but simple logic tells the reasonable person that they do. No Kool-Aid needed, just the weight of recent history going back to 1999. Ive, Williams, Mansfield and crew just hitting their stride, judging by what they've been doing with aluminum, with thin-film GITO, with massive worldwide roll-outs, and so on.

    You guys (jdnc123, bigpics now included) see things through a glass darkly. It ain't zeal for me either, it's just plain simple logic. In memory of DaHarder, Time Will Tell.

    That's it, I'm through for now, carry on with your visionary work.
  • Reply 100 of 113
    igrivigriv Posts: 1,177member

    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Flaneur View Post





    Ok, so play the Kool-Aid card, the last refuge of the seasoned and mature Apple hater.



    Correct, maybe they don't have another round of insanely great products, but simple logic tells the reasonable person that they do. No Kool-Aid needed, just the weight of recent history going back to 1999. Ive, Williams, Mansfield and crew just hitting their stride, judging by what they've been doing with aluminum, with thin-film GITO, with massive worldwide roll-outs, and so on.



    You guys (jdnc123, bigpics now included) see things through a glass darkly. It ain't zeal for me either, it's just plain simple logic. In memory of DaHarder, Time Will Tell.



    That's it, I'm through for now, carry on with your visionary work.


    The Kool-Aid card? Man, that's way trippy. You did not answer my main objection: you are not putting your money where your mouth is, so it's just words.

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