Would you also say that 802.11g and 802.11n aren't interchangeable ways to connect to a wireless network because the 802.11 technologies themselves aren't interchangeable? "802.11g can't connect to an 802.11n network so their not interchangeable¡" That's a pretty stupid comment to make and it's just as stupid to say that Ethernet and WiFi. An 802.11n router with a built in switch can allow connections to a LAN and WAN through any of those options as well as others. This cannot be contested.
Q: How do you want to connect to your networked drive?
How is that illogical? The point is to get Point A connected to Point B. The same goes for…
Q: How do you want to get to Home Depot?
You then way the pros and cons of your needs. If you need a faster connection you may go with wired. If you want to be more remote you may go for wireless. If you need to pick up a drill bit you may go fro the car, or even the Vespa. If you need to pick up plywood you may go for the pickup truck. That's the basis of network design.
I'm not exactly sure what you're saying because the very definition of an 802.11n network is that it's backwards compatible with an 802.11g network (when not in Greenfield mode). That's a pretty stupid comment of your own there, Skippy. Here's the point I was trying to make earlier - you cannot get very far on a wi-fi connection before it will require a wire. If you want to get outside of your mom's basement with your Wi-Fi connected computer and reach the network at your local Home Depot, your traffic will eventually be carried over a wired network.
I'm looking at the products as a whole. The ODD is just one thing that causes people to turn up their noses at the rMBP. Storage price and capacity is a second issue. Take into account other issues and the old MBPs look very attractive to many users. Sure the retina screen is nice but a user gives up a lot to get that screen.
As if no one else is looking at the products as a whole? You know why people turn up their noses at the rMBP. But what about the people who bought the rMBP? Why did they do such an impudent thing? Why did they give up a lot? How can you explain that?
I think this has to be the funniest thread I have looked through in awhile.
I currently own a Macbook Pro Retina 15.4'' (I think the 13'' isn't even a pro model, it's intel GPU is sad). I LOVE this Macbook. I do not miss the CD drive and I think it is a way better buy than the regular 15.4'' model. That said, I see the market for both of them. I know a ton of people that use them and need the CD drives. You all say that people who want CD drives need to store all of that information on a HDD. Well, my Macbook only has 256gb (I couldn't pay the high price of a 500gb+ SSD, as I am sure many people can't). How many movies, games, songs, etc.. can fit on a 256gb HDD? Not too much. For those that like CD drives and large capacities, 256gb isn't going to cut it.
This is a Pro laptop, I deal without the large hard drive, despite running windows with programs like AutoCAD, Solidworks, etc.... But some of these files can quickly run up in the GBs. It can become annoying to carry an external (as many have said before, it defeats the purpose). I also think the build quality between the two is the same. Additionally, I think both Macbook lines have the same build quality. I think the size difference is no big deal either, 4.5lbs vs what? 7? All the same to me.
My point is that there is up sides and down sides to both. Pick your favorite and buy it.
I just hope Apple focuses more on increasing the battery life of it's Macbooks to 10+ hours rather than making them thinner. I prefer function over form. I don't care about .3lbs and .1'' if it costs me 2 hours of battery life. My brother is in the market for his first macbook, so I am going to watch Apple closely. If they are overly focused on form rather than function, I will recommend another product more suited for his work needs.
Mea culpa and good point. Let's run the numbers, shall we?
The 15' MBP went from 77.5Whr to 95Whr when it went Retina. That's a 22.58% gain in capacity.
The 13" MBP went from 63.5Whr to 74Whr when it went Retina. That's a 16.53% gain in capacity.
They're all Ivy Bridge microarchitecture, but I can't tell if the minor bumps also had any other power saving advancements. I may be able to deduce what changes they may have done with the battery life testings or real world results if I wanted to put in the effort (but I don't).
Assuming all other things equal the smaller Retina display needs a lower boost in battery size. That means that a 13" MBA would need 16% more juice to run the display for the same duration with the same setup. Can Haswell or Haswell+IGZO account for 10 Watt hours without having to under clock the system or make the battery larger?
Two other things of note:
The percentage gain dropped with the smaller display. Sure, we expected the Watt hours to be lower, but the percentage being that much lower surprised me. Do this mean the 11" MBA may only need, say, a 10% gain with all other things being equal?
The MBAs already had a high PPI than the MBPs, with the 13" MBA being 1440x900 whilst the 13" MBP being 1280x800 at 128PPI. Now I guess they might go for a full doubling there as they haven't yet deviated from that course, but I'm betting they go with the same Retina display on the 13" MBA as is on the 13" MBP with around a 220 PPI display. The 11" might be more tricky. Currently at 135 PPI would they go with 220 PPI for that do they want the UI elements to be smaller due to the much smaller display. One solution might be to use the 264 PPI display in the 9.7 iPad but that seems like overkill since that's a lot more pixels to push over being 220 PPI on that machine.
Good analysis. Your numbers do suggest that, if Haswell comes as advertised, Apple might be able to pull this off.
One thing I didn't take into acct, which you have, is that they may not double the PPI on the MBA. If they do, that would give 13" rMBA a superior spec to the 13" rMBP, albeit slight. Furthermore, there is a rumor that the new rMBPs are thinner, possibly due to power performance gains in using Haswell.
So we might end with a rMBA but rMBP will be thinner than before. Wouldn't that blur the lines even more between the Pro and Air lines?
Well yeah, but you're the crusty old naysayer who is against anything new, so I'm not going to pay much attention to your point of view. ;)
You're constantly telling everyone that the iPad is crap and that you can't do anything with it as far as I recall.
I've never told anybody that the iPad is crap. I have two of them right now and probably will have a third when the new one comes out. That being said the platform isn't perfect and people need to realize that when buying one. Realizing a devices limitations is not negativity and it certainly isn't calling it crap.
The guy I was responding to is obviously one of those picky types that thinks his little system that he's worked out is the best and clearly (like you) isn't really open to a new way of working, which is why I didn't respond to his last post. He basically wan't a desktop class machine, that's portable, that also works for work and personal, and nothing short of that will do for him. There isn't much to say once you realise that. His description of his needs is a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy.
The problem is that is realizable with today's technology but not in a retina MBP. What you and many others can't seem to fathom is that the retina MBP is a step backwards for many users.
I was trying to point out that he would do better with a desktop class machine at home and a different, lighter, mobile setup, but he isn't open to new ways of working so I respected that. I know a few photographers myself, and I know that even some of the high end fashion photogs nowadays use pretty much the exact setup I was putting forward as a suggestion, so I thought it was worth explaining it, in case the fellow hadn't heard about it. You, on the other hand, are just being crotchety and contrary as usual.
Well it really depends upon many factors. If he is photographing architecture that may mean a view camera with digital back or at least a camera with movements (a shift lens). In some cases there is no way to pull this off in the field without a laptop. I'm trying not to assume what technology the guy is using here.
I could point out how wrong you are about optical discs being "good storage" and a bunch of other stuff but I know from your posts here over the years that you aren't really interested either in debate or even "the facts" for that matter.
This is pure baloney. Every backup method has its limitations.
In fact, you seem so thoroughly uninterested in anything new or different that I fail to understand why you like Macs at all, or why you haunt this forum. You come across as a deeply conservative, and extremely negative individual which is the opposite of the type that usually gravitates towards Macs.
Do you realize how foolish the above statement is? You try to paint Mac users as as of one persuasion which makes no sense at all. In any event I don't buy "new" simply to make myself look trendy in public, I buy new if it is something that works for me. IPad is a perfect example of something that works well for me, the iPhone I own is a harder sell. I'm not afraid to say that one works better for me than the other - that isn't being conservative it is called speaking your mind and reflecting upon what you own and how you use it. As to politics I'm more of a libertarian leaning than anything as I believe in freedom and ethics something liberals no nothing about.
Speaking of persuasions liberals can be just as disconnected with reality as conservatives. Often liberalism is a sort of blindness to reality. The liberal hand wringing over battery powered electric cars is one example. The idea of an electric car is great but comes up against the stone wall of battery technology. Until a form of electric power is devised that deals with the battery issue promoting electric cars for everybody is just foolish. Research should be going into electric power sources that can replace batteries like fusion technologies but we all know how liberals run in fear of the word nuclear. Clean up the power problem and then start promoting electric cars for everybody. The point is the technology has to be ready for large scale adoption.
You take my positions on certain things as a dis interest or extreme negativity which you have the right to do but I don't see it that way at all. Each technological development has a time and place. Flash storage works great in the Mac Book AIRs because it fits the use case for the groups being targeted by those machines. It doesn't fit the needs of many pro users however because it doesn't meet their storage needs especially in a machine like the retina MBP. This isn't negativity it is called speaking your mind and point out serious short falls. The technology just isn't ready for that large scale adoption.
In the end I still don't understand why so many defend Apple with their backwards moves with respect to the retina machines. Running a successful company is about servicing your customers needs. As such the retina MBP only addresses a fairly narrow subset of what I would call professional users. It is certainly a far narrower subset than the original MBPs cover. This is why many of us want to see the originals updated and kept current until technology allows the retina MBP to economically replace those machines. I'm not even sure what that has to do with being conservative, liberal or just a plain pain in the ass.
If they add retina to the air- what is the benefit to the rMBP?
People keep talking about retina for the air- I don't think we see it ever. I think it gets discontinued or they combine before that happens.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iRun262
It is ridiculous to say the the MBA won't ever get a retina display. Eventually ALL displays with be 'retina'. It is the future.
Phones got 'em, Pads got 'em, Pixel's got one*, even MBP's got 'em.... ...(and when it fits the price/power point)... ...let's do it!
*[Pixel and Kira may or may not have the optical quality of the rMBP's - e.g., I dunno if they're "pentile" or what. Jus' sayin'....]
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldmacs
You have given quite a few reasons why the other Macbooks are far better products in most ways. But not why they need to discontinue the old one. I am seriously interested in knowing why.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldmacs
I just want to know why people are suffering because Apple keeps a model?
It's not "people suffering" that determines this.... ...it's strictly Apple's view of the business case for keeping on with building, stocking and selling 'em.... ...and I believe "they have people for that" kind of analysis.... ...'least ways their ongoing bottom lines kinda/sorta indicate they have a decent sense of this.....
....Meanwhile, there will always be people who truly enjoy riding in a horse-drawn buggy or carriage. And they can do so, e.g., in NYC, in Central Park.
Lets see the following are items that are seldom in continuous use on my machine:
the hard disk.
the USB ports.
the FireWire ports.
the connector for the external video display.
WiFi.
Ethernet.
Bluetooth.
the old card slot.
Now of the above three of those I use less than the optical drive. Of those two not at all, yet Apples new machines come with some of those ports.
While I agree with you, I also wonder whom among us (power users) are bothered by the lack of one feature or another on a given device. Don't we all have multiple machines and financial resources to afford external drives or accessories that provide whatever we need?
That's an interesting take i hadn't yet heard. I assumed these iGPUs will be more powerful than in the current 13" RMBP.
They will be more powerful but my understanding is that the 5200 HD bearing processors won't come until September. I could be wrong of course and further we should know the details this week but there are supposedly three variants of the new GPU, often referred to as GT1 GT2 and GT3 in the past. So you get three levels of performance. Intel is now branding them with the Iris name. I'd scan the net to see what is suspected for this month but at this point we can just wait for Intel to tell us this week with the Haswell launch.
This whole brand name, part number and code name business can be confusing at times. In any event supposedly everything in the Haswell family doesn't launch this week. Just a bit over a week now for WWDC, then we will have the meat and potatoes.
1) Yeah, I never said that wireless was't ever an option. In fact I said I use an Ethernet connection to get a faster connection with my iMac, but you'd have to have actually read what I wrote before commenting.
This has zero to do with the point that wireless is not an option in many corporate networks. The faster connectivity is a nice to have.
Quote:
2) The technologies are used interchangeably. This is undeniable by you have attempted to do so. I also stated they clearly had pros and cons. You claimed otherwise. You might to revisit that cars and truck analogy that you seem so fond of. Cars are trucks can be used for the same purpose (i.e.: interchangeably) but no where does that mean that each, even with classifications of just cars or just trucks, all have the exact same advantages and disadvantages.
Yes, WiFi and Ethernet fills the same roles in different ways. They are SOMETIMES interchangeable and sometimes NOT. It is the NOT segment that is important to the discussion at hand as to whether or not it is important that the port is provided on the latest gen MBP. The fact that WiFi exists is almost immaterial to the discussion. Only whether TB docking stations and TB ethernet dongles don't suck.
Quote:
Now, do you want to add to the conversation or act pissy again that I called out your stupidity. Either way, I'd appreciate if think a little more before you respond.
I'm not the genius that wrote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
WiFi is certainly not a replacement for all types of networked communication, especially in regards to security, but they are both interchangeable for all intents and purposes as they are networking technologies.
Obviously if it's "certainly not a replacement" for x then it cannot be interchangeable for ALL intents and purposes. Regardless of your logic failure what you attempt to do in this sentence is to completely ignore the reason why folks object to the assertion that WiFi can replace Ethernet on the MBP.
Which is:
Quote:
Originally Posted by thataveragejoe
However, the lack of Ethernet is still a minor frustration point. Wifi may be good enough for most at home or a Starbucks; but Ethernet is still faster, more reliable, and the only way most businesses let you connect to secure data.
and
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer
I use Ethernet [at home on my network] and at every consulting job I've ever worked for within the Fortune 1000.
The fact is that they are not interchangeable because WiFi connectivity is explicitly disallowed. That you don't agree with this policy is neither here nor there because you don't make IT decisions for Fortune 1000 companies.
This would be exactly like insisting that a USB flash drive can replace optical media in instances where USB flash drives are explicitly disallowed due to security reasons.
The fact is that they are not interchangeable because WiFi connectivity is explicitly disallowed. That you don't agree with this policy is neither here nor there because you don't make IT decisions for all Fortune 1000 companies.
This would be exactly like insisting that a USB flash drive can replace optical media in instances where USB flash drives are explicitly disallowed due to security reasons.
Being logical will simply not be tolerated here. This is a debating forum where people take opposite sides and argue them to death.
This has zero to do with the point that wireless is not an option in many corporate networks. The faster connectivity is a nice to have.
Yes, WiFi and Ethernet fills the same roles in different ways. They are SOMETIMES interchangeable and sometimes NOT. It is the NOT segment that is important to the discussion at hand as to whether or not it is important that the port is provided on the latest gen MBP. The fact that WiFi exists is almost immaterial to the discussion. Only whether TB docking stations and TB ethernet dongles don't suck.
I'm not the genius that wrote:
Obviously if it's "certainly not a replacement" for x then it cannot be interchangeable for ALL intents and purposes. Regardless of your logic failure what you attempt to do in this sentence is to completely ignore the reason why folks object to the assertion that WiFi can replace Ethernet on the MBP.
Which is:
and
The fact is that they are not interchangeable because WiFi connectivity is explicitly disallowed. That you don't agree with this policy is neither here nor there because you don't make IT decisions for Fortune 1000 companies.
This would be exactly like insisting that a USB flash drive can replace optical media in instances where USB flash drives are explicitly disallowed due to security reasons.
Who the hell are you arguing with? I've clearly stated Fortune 1000 dictate the use of Ethernet and you've managed to mangle it as I don't make the choices for them. Grow up.
Who the hell are you arguing with? I've clearly stated Fortune 1000 dictate the use of Ethernet and you've managed to mangle it as I don't make the choices for them. Grow up.
I think he was using your point, and thataveragejoe's point, to bolster his comments to SolipsismX.
1) They come with some but they have dropped others which you don't seem too upset about. What if you really think you need EC and the new Macs don't have it or you paid a lot of money for that EC card you want to keep using? I'm guessing that is one of the two you don't use at all. What if someone came on here complaining that Apple has messed up big time by removing it? Is there predilection warranted? There desire to want it is fine, but I don't see justification their desire should outweigh Apple's decision. What if they said that everyone they know uses EC?
EC? In any event there are things on my MBP that I don't use at all that was my point. Does it make sense to delete them because "I" don't use them. This whole thread revolves around this issue.
2) I'd say that FW is likely a bigger issue for Mac users than the ODD. If you have a FW drive it most likely has USB 2.0, as well, but even that is slower than FW400 for large transfers. The solution is the TB-to-FW800 adapter but people complain about that. I don't think leaving that plugged into your FW cable is a big deal. I certainly have seen people get FW400-to-FW800 and FW800-to-FW400 adapters without complaining.
Actually FireWire is one of those things I don't use at all on my MBP. I alway found it to be flaky which might mean that I have a bad motherboard but the other ports do fine for me.
3) I personally don't use my video out on my MBP but I'm looking forward to having TB on my next MBP because it allows me so many options for data transfer without using the sparse number of USB ports. It's the same port as mDP so you can use it for a display, for data, or both at the same time.
You have not seen me complain about the move to TB because it does offer real advantageous over previous ports.
4) You're comparing a port interfaces with no moving parts to a component that takes up 25% of a 13" MBP in what appears to be a claim that it's not fair. That's not a reasonable position.
Not really wash at I was objecting to is that the idea that some people don't use the optical so that is a justification to delete it on all machines. There are things on my MBP that I don't use at all, but that is not a reason for me to say that the support needs to be deleted for everybody. What I'm objecting to is the argument that goes like this: "I don't need it so you don't either", which seems like the basis of many posts here.
Even if add up the 2.5" 9.5mm HDD, EC/34 card slot, the WiFi/BT chip, and all the ports they all still take up considerably less space than the ODD. I bet they'll all use less power when all in use than the ODD spinning up.
True but that is no different than trying to spin up an optical over USB, if you can find one that works over USB. You have to admit dropping the USB drive significantly lowers the flexibility of the machine as now that space is not retaskable.
Need has nothing to do with it. I wanted to utilize useless space.
This is the whole point though it isn't useless space because you where able to leverage that space for your needs. You couldn't do this on the retina MBP if you wanted too.
They do, but I think it's safe to say that Apple understands their consumer base better than a single user not liking that they no longer fit into Apple's ideal window. As stated, there are plenty o things I'd personally want if I was building my own Mac, but a consumer focused company doesn't depend on the individual need of a single user or small group of users.
I realize that Apple can't meet the needs of every single person out there. However they have gone out of their way to make a "pro" computer that meets the needs of a significantly smaller population of their users than previous machines in the retina MBP. Some see that as progress I don't. I actually think they realize that this is a problem thus they have kept the old MBP around.
I don't think you can prove that most Mac users need a slow, power-hungry, noisy, and questionably reliable ODD so often that it has to be in the device at all times. MBA, RMBP, Mac mini, iMac, netbooks, Ultrabooks, tablets, and even smartphones are showing that people aren't wanting that in every computer they own.
No one here is saying Apple should put an optical in every laptop they sell. All I'm saying is that there is a need to have some models available with that feature. Even if that is for users that chuck the drive and install a hard drive in that space.
I can't see how that amazing machine is in any way a boondoggle but if they add the ODD back to it (or rather make the old style MBP Retina) I'll see your point on this.
Well I guess that is an issue of perspective. I'm under the impression the retina machines aren't selling as well as Apple had hoped after the early adopter rush. I could be wrong but the realignment of pricing on the 13" machine is one sign. It will be real interesting to see how the line up changes at WWDC and if there are aggressive pricing changes. I expect the price of the retina machines to eventually come down but it is a question of how aggressively that happens.
It will also be interesting to see if the screen gets updated to IGZO tech. If that technology truly allows for the power savings implied it might allow Apple to add room for a second or maybe even a third SSD module. This would go a very long way towards addressing real user concerns with this machine and the current expensive flash storage options. It would bring back some of the flexibility given up in the current machine.
So maybe boondoggle was a little over the top but I think it is fair to say that Apple could do much to the retina machine to make it more attractive to a wider array of users. If not boondoggle it is certainly an overpriced niche item right now.
****, Dude, learn to follow the conversion because I won't relent just because you're thick. He responded to wizard69's comment which also mentioned "Being that I have to carry around an external for my old MBP I know the feeling well."
The point is a very simple one: The options proposed to meet his needs would not be possible if he owned a MBPr rather than a cMBP because a cMBP is far more flexible. If he had a MBPr he'd simply be screwed.
Hence the cMBP is very desirable among many professional users over the MBPr and a Haswell update to the current cMBP would be well received. Hopefully at least the 15" MBP will get a refresh. The HDD, ODD and ethernet ports are all widely used by business and pro users.
Frankly the MBA is such a capable machine that a good number of business users will find it more attractive than the 13" MBPr and would wish for a 15" MBA. But some pros find the lack of an ethernet port and HDD to be significant hinderances in their day to day use. Are there work arounds? Yes. It is simple an unnecessary annoyance to have to do so for a truck. I would like the sleekest and coolest looking truck I could buy but not at the expense of being able to serve as a truck. Especially if the brand already had a line of very svelte light trucks already.
Again, stop being a dick because people disagree with your very very narrow viewpoint.
As if no one else is looking at the products as a whole?
Everybody has a different perspective.
You know why people turn up their noses at the rMBP.
Where did this ignorance come from? No body is turning their nose up at the retina MBP, clearly what is being said is that it is a very poor value for a lot of users. That might be due to the lack of an ODD or the lack of significant bulk storage capacity or other completely different issues.
But what about the people who bought the rMBP? Why did they do such an impudent thing? Why did they give up a lot? How can you explain that?
If you don't understand what has been said up until now further explaining would be useless. I'm certain there are happy retina users out there but that doesn't mean there are a large number of users flocking to buy this machine. It comes down to this, many users are taking the original MBP over the retina. Some thing that is purely an issue of price but I don't buy that. A good portion of those buyers are skipping the retina machine not for what it has but rather what has been left out.
I think this has to be the funniest thread I have looked through in awhile.
I'm glad that something good has come from this thread!
I currently own a Macbook Pro Retina 15.4'' (I think the 13'' isn't even a pro model, it's intel GPU is sad). I LOVE this Macbook. I do not miss the CD drive and I think it is a way better buy than the regular 15.4'' model. That said, I see the market for both of them. I know a ton of people that use them and need the CD drives. You all say that people who want CD drives need to store all of that information on a HDD. Well, my Macbook only has 256gb (I couldn't pay the high price of a 500gb+ SSD, as I am sure many people can't). How many movies, games, songs, etc.. can fit on a 256gb HDD? Not too much. For those that like CD drives and large capacities, 256gb isn't going to cut it.
The problem I have is with the people suggesting to kill the original MBP. As you highlight here it is a real and viable alternative to the retina machine.
This is a Pro laptop, I deal without the large hard drive, despite running windows with programs like AutoCAD, Solidworks, etc.... But some of these files can quickly run up in the GBs. It can become annoying to carry an external (as many have said before, it defeats the purpose). I also think the build quality between the two is the same. Additionally, I think both Macbook lines have the same build quality. I think the size difference is no big deal either, 4.5lbs vs what? 7? All the same to me.
My point is that there is up sides and down sides to both. Pick your favorite and buy it.
Exactly, which makes calls to kill the original machines so asinine. There will be a day when the retina machine can effectively replace the other unit but it isn't today and not with the current design.
I just hope Apple focuses more on increasing the battery life of it's Macbooks to 10+ hours rather than making them thinner. I prefer function over form. I don't care about .3lbs and .1'' if it costs me 2 hours of battery life. My brother is in the market for his first macbook, so I am going to watch Apple closely. If they are overly focused on form rather than function, I will recommend another product more suited for his work needs.
You do realize that at one time getting an hour out if a laptop was considered pretty good. I'm rather pleased with what Apple has accomplished so far.
Who the hell are you arguing with? I've clearly stated Fortune 1000 dictate the use of Ethernet and you've managed to mangle it as I don't make the choices for them. Grow up.
That part was unclearly written (or at the very least unclearly formatted). I was pointing out to SolX that the primary objection you and thataveragejoe had was that WiFi was prohibited.
I was not responding to you or arguing with you. If anything what you wrote was mild in the case of some security profiles where the existence of the radio is disallowed although for many places I've seen they have software lockouts in place. When connected to ethernet the software automatically disables the wifi. It's hackable (since it is just software) but they are trying to eliminate user error vs hackers in that case.
Comments
Originally Posted by wizard69
Right now it is hard to see the retina MBP as anything more than a massive overpriced boondoggle.
Now do you wonder why I ignore some of what you say?
Same thinness, more battery.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
Would you also say that 802.11g and 802.11n aren't interchangeable ways to connect to a wireless network because the 802.11 technologies themselves aren't interchangeable? "802.11g can't connect to an 802.11n network so their not interchangeable¡" That's a pretty stupid comment to make and it's just as stupid to say that Ethernet and WiFi. An 802.11n router with a built in switch can allow connections to a LAN and WAN through any of those options as well as others. This cannot be contested.
Q: How do you want to connect to your networked drive?
How is that illogical? The point is to get Point A connected to Point B. The same goes for…
Q: How do you want to get to Home Depot?
You then way the pros and cons of your needs. If you need a faster connection you may go with wired. If you want to be more remote you may go for wireless. If you need to pick up a drill bit you may go fro the car, or even the Vespa. If you need to pick up plywood you may go for the pickup truck. That's the basis of network design.
I'm not exactly sure what you're saying because the very definition of an 802.11n network is that it's backwards compatible with an 802.11g network (when not in Greenfield mode). That's a pretty stupid comment of your own there, Skippy. Here's the point I was trying to make earlier - you cannot get very far on a wi-fi connection before it will require a wire. If you want to get outside of your mom's basement with your Wi-Fi connected computer and reach the network at your local Home Depot, your traffic will eventually be carried over a wired network.
Originally Posted by msimpson
Same thinness, more battery.
Oh, I dearly hope so. I'm quite fine with the thin kick Apple's on, but does it REALLY need done further right now when
1. Haswell supposedly brings THAT much longer life and
2. They'll be dropping traditional computers in a few years anyway
?
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
I'm looking at the products as a whole. The ODD is just one thing that causes people to turn up their noses at the rMBP. Storage price and capacity is a second issue. Take into account other issues and the old MBPs look very attractive to many users. Sure the retina screen is nice but a user gives up a lot to get that screen.
As if no one else is looking at the products as a whole? You know why people turn up their noses at the rMBP. But what about the people who bought the rMBP? Why did they do such an impudent thing? Why did they give up a lot? How can you explain that?
I think this has to be the funniest thread I have looked through in awhile.
I currently own a Macbook Pro Retina 15.4'' (I think the 13'' isn't even a pro model, it's intel GPU is sad). I LOVE this Macbook. I do not miss the CD drive and I think it is a way better buy than the regular 15.4'' model. That said, I see the market for both of them. I know a ton of people that use them and need the CD drives. You all say that people who want CD drives need to store all of that information on a HDD. Well, my Macbook only has 256gb (I couldn't pay the high price of a 500gb+ SSD, as I am sure many people can't). How many movies, games, songs, etc.. can fit on a 256gb HDD? Not too much. For those that like CD drives and large capacities, 256gb isn't going to cut it.
This is a Pro laptop, I deal without the large hard drive, despite running windows with programs like AutoCAD, Solidworks, etc.... But some of these files can quickly run up in the GBs. It can become annoying to carry an external (as many have said before, it defeats the purpose). I also think the build quality between the two is the same. Additionally, I think both Macbook lines have the same build quality. I think the size difference is no big deal either, 4.5lbs vs what? 7? All the same to me.
My point is that there is up sides and down sides to both. Pick your favorite and buy it.
I just hope Apple focuses more on increasing the battery life of it's Macbooks to 10+ hours rather than making them thinner. I prefer function over form. I don't care about .3lbs and .1'' if it costs me 2 hours of battery life. My brother is in the market for his first macbook, so I am going to watch Apple closely. If they are overly focused on form rather than function, I will recommend another product more suited for his work needs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
Mea culpa and good point. Let's run the numbers, shall we?
The 15' MBP went from 77.5Whr to 95Whr when it went Retina. That's a 22.58% gain in capacity.
The 13" MBP went from 63.5Whr to 74Whr when it went Retina. That's a 16.53% gain in capacity.
They're all Ivy Bridge microarchitecture, but I can't tell if the minor bumps also had any other power saving advancements. I may be able to deduce what changes they may have done with the battery life testings or real world results if I wanted to put in the effort (but I don't).
Assuming all other things equal the smaller Retina display needs a lower boost in battery size. That means that a 13" MBA would need 16% more juice to run the display for the same duration with the same setup. Can Haswell or Haswell+IGZO account for 10 Watt hours without having to under clock the system or make the battery larger?
Two other things of note:
The percentage gain dropped with the smaller display. Sure, we expected the Watt hours to be lower, but the percentage being that much lower surprised me. Do this mean the 11" MBA may only need, say, a 10% gain with all other things being equal?
The MBAs already had a high PPI than the MBPs, with the 13" MBA being 1440x900 whilst the 13" MBP being 1280x800 at 128PPI. Now I guess they might go for a full doubling there as they haven't yet deviated from that course, but I'm betting they go with the same Retina display on the 13" MBA as is on the 13" MBP with around a 220 PPI display. The 11" might be more tricky. Currently at 135 PPI would they go with 220 PPI for that do they want the UI elements to be smaller due to the much smaller display. One solution might be to use the 264 PPI display in the 9.7 iPad but that seems like overkill since that's a lot more pixels to push over being 220 PPI on that machine.
Good analysis. Your numbers do suggest that, if Haswell comes as advertised, Apple might be able to pull this off.
One thing I didn't take into acct, which you have, is that they may not double the PPI on the MBA. If they do, that would give 13" rMBA a superior spec to the 13" rMBP, albeit slight. Furthermore, there is a rumor that the new rMBPs are thinner, possibly due to power performance gains in using Haswell.
So we might end with a rMBA but rMBP will be thinner than before. Wouldn't that blur the lines even more between the Pro and Air lines?
I've never told anybody that the iPad is crap. I have two of them right now and probably will have a third when the new one comes out. That being said the platform isn't perfect and people need to realize that when buying one. Realizing a devices limitations is not negativity and it certainly isn't calling it crap. The problem is that is realizable with today's technology but not in a retina MBP. What you and many others can't seem to fathom is that the retina MBP is a step backwards for many users. Well it really depends upon many factors. If he is photographing architecture that may mean a view camera with digital back or at least a camera with movements (a shift lens). In some cases there is no way to pull this off in the field without a laptop. I'm trying not to assume what technology the guy is using here. This is pure baloney. Every backup method has its limitations.
Do you realize how foolish the above statement is? You try to paint Mac users as as of one persuasion which makes no sense at all. In any event I don't buy "new" simply to make myself look trendy in public, I buy new if it is something that works for me. IPad is a perfect example of something that works well for me, the iPhone I own is a harder sell. I'm not afraid to say that one works better for me than the other - that isn't being conservative it is called speaking your mind and reflecting upon what you own and how you use it. As to politics I'm more of a libertarian leaning than anything as I believe in freedom and ethics something liberals no nothing about.
Speaking of persuasions liberals can be just as disconnected with reality as conservatives. Often liberalism is a sort of blindness to reality. The liberal hand wringing over battery powered electric cars is one example. The idea of an electric car is great but comes up against the stone wall of battery technology. Until a form of electric power is devised that deals with the battery issue promoting electric cars for everybody is just foolish. Research should be going into electric power sources that can replace batteries like fusion technologies but we all know how liberals run in fear of the word nuclear. Clean up the power problem and then start promoting electric cars for everybody. The point is the technology has to be ready for large scale adoption.
You take my positions on certain things as a dis interest or extreme negativity which you have the right to do but I don't see it that way at all. Each technological development has a time and place. Flash storage works great in the Mac Book AIRs because it fits the use case for the groups being targeted by those machines. It doesn't fit the needs of many pro users however because it doesn't meet their storage needs especially in a machine like the retina MBP. This isn't negativity it is called speaking your mind and point out serious short falls. The technology just isn't ready for that large scale adoption.
In the end I still don't understand why so many defend Apple with their backwards moves with respect to the retina machines. Running a successful company is about servicing your customers needs. As such the retina MBP only addresses a fairly narrow subset of what I would call professional users. It is certainly a far narrower subset than the original MBPs cover. This is why many of us want to see the originals updated and kept current until technology allows the retina MBP to economically replace those machines. I'm not even sure what that has to do with being conservative, liberal or just a plain pain in the ass.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andysol
If they add retina to the air- what is the benefit to the rMBP?
People keep talking about retina for the air- I don't think we see it ever. I think it gets discontinued or they combine before that happens.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iRun262
It is ridiculous to say the the MBA won't ever get a retina display. Eventually ALL displays with be 'retina'. It is the future.
Phones got 'em, Pads got 'em, Pixel's got one*, even MBP's got 'em.... ...(and when it fits the price/power point)... ...let's do it!
*[Pixel and Kira may or may not have the optical quality of the rMBP's - e.g., I dunno if they're "pentile" or what. Jus' sayin'....]
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldmacs
You have given quite a few reasons why the other Macbooks are far better products in most ways. But not why they need to discontinue the old one. I am seriously interested in knowing why.
Quote:
Originally Posted by oldmacs
I just want to know why people are suffering because Apple keeps a model?
It's not "people suffering" that determines this.... ...it's strictly Apple's view of the business case for keeping on with building, stocking and selling 'em.... ...and I believe "they have people for that" kind of analysis.... ...'least ways their ongoing bottom lines kinda/sorta indicate they have a decent sense of this.....
....Meanwhile, there will always be people who truly enjoy riding in a horse-drawn buggy or carriage. And they can do so, e.g., in NYC, in Central Park.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
Lets see the following are items that are seldom in continuous use on my machine:
Now of the above three of those I use less than the optical drive. Of those two not at all, yet Apples new machines come with some of those ports.the hard disk.
the USB ports.
the FireWire ports.
the connector for the external video display.
WiFi.
Ethernet.
Bluetooth.
the old card slot.
While I agree with you, I also wonder whom among us (power users) are bothered by the lack of one feature or another on a given device. Don't we all have multiple machines and financial resources to afford external drives or accessories that provide whatever we need?
They will be more powerful but my understanding is that the 5200 HD bearing processors won't come until September. I could be wrong of course and further we should know the details this week but there are supposedly three variants of the new GPU, often referred to as GT1 GT2 and GT3 in the past. So you get three levels of performance. Intel is now branding them with the Iris name. I'd scan the net to see what is suspected for this month but at this point we can just wait for Intel to tell us this week with the Haswell launch.
This whole brand name, part number and code name business can be confusing at times. In any event supposedly everything in the Haswell family doesn't launch this week. Just a bit over a week now for WWDC, then we will have the meat and potatoes.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
1) Yeah, I never said that wireless was't ever an option. In fact I said I use an Ethernet connection to get a faster connection with my iMac, but you'd have to have actually read what I wrote before commenting.
This has zero to do with the point that wireless is not an option in many corporate networks. The faster connectivity is a nice to have.
Quote:
2) The technologies are used interchangeably. This is undeniable by you have attempted to do so. I also stated they clearly had pros and cons. You claimed otherwise. You might to revisit that cars and truck analogy that you seem so fond of. Cars are trucks can be used for the same purpose (i.e.: interchangeably) but no where does that mean that each, even with classifications of just cars or just trucks, all have the exact same advantages and disadvantages.
Yes, WiFi and Ethernet fills the same roles in different ways. They are SOMETIMES interchangeable and sometimes NOT. It is the NOT segment that is important to the discussion at hand as to whether or not it is important that the port is provided on the latest gen MBP. The fact that WiFi exists is almost immaterial to the discussion. Only whether TB docking stations and TB ethernet dongles don't suck.
Quote:
Now, do you want to add to the conversation or act pissy again that I called out your stupidity. Either way, I'd appreciate if think a little more before you respond.
I'm not the genius that wrote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
WiFi is certainly not a replacement for all types of networked communication, especially in regards to security, but they are both interchangeable for all intents and purposes as they are networking technologies.
Obviously if it's "certainly not a replacement" for x then it cannot be interchangeable for ALL intents and purposes. Regardless of your logic failure what you attempt to do in this sentence is to completely ignore the reason why folks object to the assertion that WiFi can replace Ethernet on the MBP.
Which is:
Quote:
Originally Posted by thataveragejoe
However, the lack of Ethernet is still a minor frustration point. Wifi may be good enough for most at home or a Starbucks; but Ethernet is still faster, more reliable, and the only way most businesses let you connect to secure data.
and
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer
I use Ethernet [at home on my network] and at every consulting job I've ever worked for within the Fortune 1000.
The fact is that they are not interchangeable because WiFi connectivity is explicitly disallowed. That you don't agree with this policy is neither here nor there because you don't make IT decisions for Fortune 1000 companies.
This would be exactly like insisting that a USB flash drive can replace optical media in instances where USB flash drives are explicitly disallowed due to security reasons.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht
The fact is that they are not interchangeable because WiFi connectivity is explicitly disallowed. That you don't agree with this policy is neither here nor there because you don't make IT decisions for all Fortune 1000 companies.
This would be exactly like insisting that a USB flash drive can replace optical media in instances where USB flash drives are explicitly disallowed due to security reasons.
Being logical will simply not be tolerated here. This is a debating forum where people take opposite sides and argue them to death.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nht
This has zero to do with the point that wireless is not an option in many corporate networks. The faster connectivity is a nice to have.
Yes, WiFi and Ethernet fills the same roles in different ways. They are SOMETIMES interchangeable and sometimes NOT. It is the NOT segment that is important to the discussion at hand as to whether or not it is important that the port is provided on the latest gen MBP. The fact that WiFi exists is almost immaterial to the discussion. Only whether TB docking stations and TB ethernet dongles don't suck.
I'm not the genius that wrote:
Obviously if it's "certainly not a replacement" for x then it cannot be interchangeable for ALL intents and purposes. Regardless of your logic failure what you attempt to do in this sentence is to completely ignore the reason why folks object to the assertion that WiFi can replace Ethernet on the MBP.
Which is:
and
The fact is that they are not interchangeable because WiFi connectivity is explicitly disallowed. That you don't agree with this policy is neither here nor there because you don't make IT decisions for Fortune 1000 companies.
This would be exactly like insisting that a USB flash drive can replace optical media in instances where USB flash drives are explicitly disallowed due to security reasons.
Who the hell are you arguing with? I've clearly stated Fortune 1000 dictate the use of Ethernet and you've managed to mangle it as I don't make the choices for them. Grow up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer
Who the hell are you arguing with? I've clearly stated Fortune 1000 dictate the use of Ethernet and you've managed to mangle it as I don't make the choices for them. Grow up.
I think he was using your point, and thataveragejoe's point, to bolster his comments to SolipsismX.
EC? In any event there are things on my MBP that I don't use at all that was my point. Does it make sense to delete them because "I" don't use them. This whole thread revolves around this issue. Actually FireWire is one of those things I don't use at all on my MBP. I alway found it to be flaky which might mean that I have a bad motherboard but the other ports do fine for me. You have not seen me complain about the move to TB because it does offer real advantageous over previous ports. Not really wash at I was objecting to is that the idea that some people don't use the optical so that is a justification to delete it on all machines. There are things on my MBP that I don't use at all, but that is not a reason for me to say that the support needs to be deleted for everybody. What I'm objecting to is the argument that goes like this: "I don't need it so you don't either", which seems like the basis of many posts here. True but that is no different than trying to spin up an optical over USB, if you can find one that works over USB. You have to admit dropping the USB drive significantly lowers the flexibility of the machine as now that space is not retaskable. This is the whole point though it isn't useless space because you where able to leverage that space for your needs. You couldn't do this on the retina MBP if you wanted too. I realize that Apple can't meet the needs of every single person out there. However they have gone out of their way to make a "pro" computer that meets the needs of a significantly smaller population of their users than previous machines in the retina MBP. Some see that as progress I don't. I actually think they realize that this is a problem thus they have kept the old MBP around. No one here is saying Apple should put an optical in every laptop they sell. All I'm saying is that there is a need to have some models available with that feature. Even if that is for users that chuck the drive and install a hard drive in that space.
Well I guess that is an issue of perspective. I'm under the impression the retina machines aren't selling as well as Apple had hoped after the early adopter rush. I could be wrong but the realignment of pricing on the 13" machine is one sign. It will be real interesting to see how the line up changes at WWDC and if there are aggressive pricing changes. I expect the price of the retina machines to eventually come down but it is a question of how aggressively that happens.
It will also be interesting to see if the screen gets updated to IGZO tech. If that technology truly allows for the power savings implied it might allow Apple to add room for a second or maybe even a third SSD module. This would go a very long way towards addressing real user concerns with this machine and the current expensive flash storage options. It would bring back some of the flexibility given up in the current machine.
So maybe boondoggle was a little over the top but I think it is fair to say that Apple could do much to the retina machine to make it more attractive to a wider array of users. If not boondoggle it is certainly an overpriced niche item right now.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
****, Dude, learn to follow the conversion because I won't relent just because you're thick. He responded to wizard69's comment which also mentioned "Being that I have to carry around an external for my old MBP I know the feeling well."
The point is a very simple one: The options proposed to meet his needs would not be possible if he owned a MBPr rather than a cMBP because a cMBP is far more flexible. If he had a MBPr he'd simply be screwed.
Hence the cMBP is very desirable among many professional users over the MBPr and a Haswell update to the current cMBP would be well received. Hopefully at least the 15" MBP will get a refresh. The HDD, ODD and ethernet ports are all widely used by business and pro users.
Frankly the MBA is such a capable machine that a good number of business users will find it more attractive than the 13" MBPr and would wish for a 15" MBA. But some pros find the lack of an ethernet port and HDD to be significant hinderances in their day to day use. Are there work arounds? Yes. It is simple an unnecessary annoyance to have to do so for a truck. I would like the sleekest and coolest looking truck I could buy but not at the expense of being able to serve as a truck. Especially if the brand already had a line of very svelte light trucks already.
Again, stop being a dick because people disagree with your very very narrow viewpoint.
You do realize that at one time getting an hour out if a laptop was considered pretty good. I'm rather pleased with what Apple has accomplished so far.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer
Who the hell are you arguing with? I've clearly stated Fortune 1000 dictate the use of Ethernet and you've managed to mangle it as I don't make the choices for them. Grow up.
That part was unclearly written (or at the very least unclearly formatted). I was pointing out to SolX that the primary objection you and thataveragejoe had was that WiFi was prohibited.
I was not responding to you or arguing with you. If anything what you wrote was mild in the case of some security profiles where the existence of the radio is disallowed although for many places I've seen they have software lockouts in place. When connected to ethernet the software automatically disables the wifi. It's hackable (since it is just software) but they are trying to eliminate user error vs hackers in that case.