From your reasoning for not discontinuing a product line, this doesn't show at all.
Again, yes, we have. You just refuse to accept our reasons. Sounds like someone else here.
Have you looked in the mirror? Your argument has been "I said so" completely dismissing any rational explanation of people's real use needs. Offer up evidence that what these people are saying isn't valid and then maybe just maybe you points might be accepted.
I don't figure they WILL until the retinas can hit the same price points while retaining Apple's profits, but that doesn't mean the old models shouldn't be dropped as soon as possible.
Dropping of the old models will depend on sales and user feedback. I suspect Apple is dealing with a Mini rebellion here with people completely rejecting the feature set of the retina MBPs. The rMBP simply are not a machine with a configuration set that many pro users are willing to adopt, excellent screen or not. Apple might try to force rMBP down users throats when they can get the price down but that isn't likely to go over well at all. The reality is user have a choice in the AIR models if a limited feature set is OK by them.
I don't think that tests anything. If the original MBP stays around this yer it will likely be because the retina isn't selling that well. Now if that is true then the question becomes why? Here there are many answers and each of them is valid from the buyers point of view. From Apples standpoint they would need to understand why the retina isn't selling well so they can adjust the design accordingly. That only if the research shows that the design is an issue, the primary factor might be price. If price is the issue offering the current Original MBP at a discounted price might have a positive impact on their ability to sustain strong sakes.
It could be the Retina isn't selling well but it may also be that the Retina is sell well but the older MBPs are also sell well enough to keep them around. The Pod mini far outsold the later renamed iPod Classic, and the iPod Nano outsold both of them, and perhaps even the iPod Shuffle despite its much lower price, but they still kept the iPod Classic around. On top of that aren't the iPod Touches accounting for about half of all iPod sales since it's release [citation needed]? I think that shows that it selling well enough without any real cost to them in R&D can keep a product around even if other models are selling through the roof.
WiFi being there has nothing to do with the need for an Ethernet jack. You make the mistake of thinking the two technologies are interchangeable but they aren't. Not even close really.
WiFi is certainly not a replacement for all types of networked communication, especially in regards to security, but they are both interchangeable for all intents and purposes as they are networking technologies.
The retina machine comes with few ports than the conventional MBP. As for the ODD I really don't buy the idea that ODD users are the minority. The demand isn't as strong as in the past but not having it built into a laptop, for occasional use, can be a buying factor.
I'd say the success of the MBA, the rise of the netbook, the iPad, and now Ultrabook-class notebooks is proof that people are selling less of a need to have an ODD not only on them at all times but built into their notebook at all times.
Dropping of the old models will depend on sales and user feedback. I suspect Apple is dealing with a Mini rebellion here with people completely rejecting the feature set of the retina MBPs.
Speaking of "mini" recall that Apple completely dropped the ODD from their entry-level desktop PC before moving that to their 15" MBP, then their 13" MBP, and then their iMacs. If this was a major issue and not having an ODD in the MBAs or the iPad wasn't enough to create the rebellion then removing it from a desktop PC should have set off all the alarms if there were going to be any. I am not convinced the next Mac Pro will even have an ODD, and if it does I'd guess it will be only slot for the drive, not two.
I have the 15in rMBP. The Optical disk drive is a waste in a laptop, even in PC world Ultrabooks don't have them anymore either. Argument is dead in the water. The only optical disk people should need is maybe a Blu-Ray player for their TV.
You are wrong on multiple counts here. First Blu-Ray is a dead technology. Walk into any store selling media and you can see this right off the bat. Racks and racks of DVDs and Blu-Ray stuck in a corner with maybe a rack or two. Blu-Ray killed itself off at inception and frankly was one thing Steve was right about.
As to AIRs and UltraBooks that is not an argument for mainstream laptops. These machines serve an entirely different market than the mainstream.
An external drive for the occasional time you need one is fine and does the job. However, the lack of Ethernet is still a minor frustration point. Wifi may be good enough for most at home or a Starbucks; but Ethernet is still faster, more reliable, and the only way most businesses let you connect to secure data. Unlike HDs and ODDs, it's not going anywhere. Sure I use an adapter, but it's clumsy, and have to be conscientious of bringing it with me all the time. Otherwise this is the best darn computer I've ever used.
It is interesting that you acknowledge some of the issues with Ethernet and justify it existence but dismiss the same arguments when it comes to optical drives. To put it plainly if a dongle is clumsy a external optical is ten times worst.
I hope this analyst is spot on. Those all sound like tempting upgrades.
I heard rumor that the Mac Pro will be a total redesign. Let's hope so as that form factor is long in the tooth. With SSDs, the new Intel Chips, and retina display these offerings will kick-butt.
I hear a lot of arguments against them, but like a few others, I do want an optical drive in my next Mac. I do still use CDs and DVDs. And that doesn't look like it will be changing any time soon. Thank you for not hating on me.
I don't think anyone is "hating on" those that want an optical drive. The market is shifting away from it though.
I use Ethernet [at home on my network] and at every consulting job I've ever worked for within the Fortune 1000.
If somebodies WiFi usage is limited to his Mamas basement he won't have any concept of why Ethernet is needed in the real world. All the justifications I've seen so far revolve around use WiFi or a dongle, but these people just don't realize that WiFi just isn't possible in many many cases. Further most Ethernet dongles just plain suck. At least the USB ones do.
The problem is you have posted this point but nobody here will accept it as fact. Instead they just champion Apples decisions without critical thought.
It is interesting that you acknowledge some of the issues with Ethernet and justify it existence but dismiss the same arguments when it comes to optical drives. To put it plainly if a dongle is clumsy a external optical is ten times worst.
If you aren't using an ODD to boot your machine for general use the way one might only use Ethernet to connect to a network for general use then your point has merit and a machine without an ODD would be quite cumbersome, but I don't see a nearly continuous and absolute need for an ODD for Mac users.
Instead they just champion Apples decisions without critical thought.
Now you're not even being reasonable. :no: Do you really think that everyone said they needed and wanted Ethernet, ODD and 120 PPI display in their MBP until Apple removed it? I've been using an OptiBay drive in my MBP since it first came arrived.
Apple made something that didn't quite fit my needs so I adapted. Something this means modifying your kit, sometimes this means changing vendors, and sometimes this means modifying your expectations. If you can't do the first two you need to do the last one and stop implying everyone that is happy with a change you don't like are mindless iSheep.
Are you sticking with an older MBP or gong with the USB or TB-to-Ethernet dongle?
If WiFi isn't completely out of the question and the Ethernet you're plugging is designed to also with a IP phone then plugging in a small PoE wireless router could be a solution.
I have wifi at home. A lot of corporations have policies where DMZ structured net access is best controlled in a subnet via ethernet and not wifi. It's akin to how come some many corporations still have T1/ISDN infrastructure and for good reason, with the exception that 1GbE or 10GbE is always going to be better than a over-the-air mesh network of wifi.
The Old MBP is an excellent machine. If you replace the DV drive with an SSD (and keep the DVD drive as an external drive) - it is an even better machine imo. Or if you need the optical drive in the machine, just upgrade the HD to an SSD. It is an awesome upgrade.
You do realize that this is an argument for MBPs with optical drives. That drive give people this very option, something they can't do with the retina MBP. It is just another way that the original MBP is an all around better platform than the Retina machine. Too many people here want to turn the retina MBP into an AIR. A 15" AIR would be nice but like the current retina machine it won't meet every bodies needs.
If somebodies WiFi usage is limited to his Mamas basement he won't have any concept of why Ethernet is needed in the real world. All the justifications I've seen so far revolve around use WiFi or a dongle, but these people just don't realize that WiFi just isn't possible in many many cases. Further most Ethernet dongles just plain suck. At least the USB ones do.
The problem is you have posted this point but nobody here will accept it as fact. Instead they just champion Apples decisions without critical thought.
It's also a reason how come Apple still have GigE on every iMac, Mac Pro, Macbook Pro, Mac Mini, and even 100BaseT on the AppleTV. It's also the reason I will never buy either a Macbook Pro or Macbook Air and purchase a separate effin' dongle ($29 adaptor just to get back a $1 GigE port that unfortunately takes bandwidth away from the PCI bus it uses).
You are wrong on multiple counts here. First Blu-Ray is a dead technology. Walk into any store selling media and you can see this right off the bat. Racks and racks of DVDs and Blu-Ray stuck in a corner with maybe a rack or two. Blu-Ray killed itself off at inception and frankly was one thing Steve was right about.
As to AIRs and UltraBooks that is not an argument for mainstream laptops. These machines serve an entirely different market than the mainstream.
It is interesting that you acknowledge some of the issues with Ethernet and justify it existence but dismiss the same arguments when it comes to optical drives. To put it plainly if a dongle is clumsy a external optical is ten times worst.
I agree that blu ray us a dead tech. But in most of the world we are stuck with it. No Hulu or Netflix, no specific apps. Either iTunes Store, with a smaller selection (as in crappily smaller, even in original English language) or cable provided on demand video which cost an arm and a leg... As long as worldwide licensing isn't rethought, many countries are unfortunately still stuck with either physical media or very expensive movies..
Blu ray, though, was doa..
Yet, more content (some content) would be appreciated... Thank Hollywood. I'd pay for it!
I have wifi at home. A lot of corporations have policies where DMZ structured net access is best controlled in a subnet via ethernet and not wifi. It's akin to how come some many corporations still have T1/ISDN infrastructure and for good reason, with the exception that 1GbE or 10GbE is always going to be better than a over-the-air mesh network of wifi.
Sometimes that can be over the top. I see little reason for many companies to have a blanket no-wireless rule specifically for security sake. It's a lot more likely that an attack will come from the internet and espionage will come from a connected device that was either infected from the outside (either from IT or user error) or internally by an employee. Encrypted and password protected WiFi, especially if it connects with a RADIUS server will not only offer select users authentication and access but also accounting. Controlling the range of the network by power and antennas (if applicable) can be a chore by yourself since you need to walk around and basically do a Verizonesque "Can you connect me now?" with a machine that has a good antenna (best not to test with a smartphone or you might make the fence larger than you expect).
I've been saying this for years now, but it's time for Apple to completely abandon the ODD from all of it's products. It is useless, it is offensive, it is noisy, it is power hungry, it's not 100% reliable and it takes up valuable space. A forward thinking company like Apple can not continue to include such an obsolete atrocity in it's products.
If you believe all of that nonsense you have posted above, fine live in denial, just realize that Apple already makes computers for you. They should also service customers with vastly different needs which computers with Ethernet and ODD do.
I feel sorry for anybody who lives in the middle of nowhere without a decent internet connection and people who still travel to work using a horse and buggy, but human civilization must continue on, and technological progress can not be hindered just because of a few dinosaurs that still remain.
Actually many of us live in very high tech areas and have access to all of those goodies but still need the hardware discussed to get the job done.
High speed internet is simply a requirement for all modern computing needs. The majority should not be inconvenienced by an insignificant minority.
First off you are in the minority when it comes to professional users. Second nobody is inconvenienced in the least because Apple has different models available to service different needs. The rational thing for Apple here is to continue to service those needs.
You still use actual audio CD's and you still watch horrible quality DVD movies and you still back up to Disk like it's 1999? Well, just go out and buy an external drive. It is you that should be inconvenienced, because you have special needs.
I bet your mother is very proud of you and your ability to understand the needs of others.
I don't think that tests anything. If the original MBP stays around this yer it will likely be because the retina isn't selling that well.
That doesn't make any sense. I still say price over anything.
And yeah, it does. Apple dropped a FireWire from the first-gen MacBook Pro, hell was raised, and it was brought back. If Ethernet is brought back (I don't believe it will be), well…
Originally Posted by wizard69
I suspect Apple is dealing with a Mini rebellion here with people completely rejecting the feature set of the retina MBPs.
I don't think the new Mac Pro will have an optical drive but it will have Ethernet. With 8GB USB thumbdrives only costing $5 (and sold in packs of 3 or 4!) you can afford to give them away to your clients.
And yeah, it does. Apple dropped a FireWire from the first-gen MacBook Pro, hell was raised, and it was brought back.
I guess it's because it was an aluminum unibody chassis that people believe that FW was removed from the 13" MBP, but that is not the case. They removed FW400 from the aluminum MB in 2008 and from all the ploy carbonate MBs a year later. When they made a 13" MB Pro they included FW800 which in all MBPs up until last year with the RMBPs.
Look out you are offering up rational explanations of why certain features appeal to you. This will not go over well with the fanboys champion the recent decisions made by Apple or the rumors speculated on here.
On the reasons why older mac book pros have to stay around:
- I am very passionate about photography, and have a very large collection of pictures shot in RAW with a DSLR.
Yep disk space is always an issue as is the ability to back up a days shoot in the field just in case.
Now. Of course I would die to have a retina mac. But I currently use the 17" mbp which has a huge difference in real estate to the 15".
Well I'm not a fan of huge machines myself but I don't really understand what the sales situation with the 17" MBP was. We can only hope that it comes back as a retina machine one day for those that need it.
Moreover I have a 750 GB HDD. Picture the price tag of that size on a SSD on a retina...
Even that is a small drive for field work. But again the people here supporting Apple apparently don't actually work with their machines. By that I mean use the machine as a tool to earn a living. If they did they wouldn't be in such a hurry to see a homogenized line from Apple.
I could give up the real estate for a retina display. But I don't want a portable computer with an external drive constantly connected to it. It defies the purpose!
Yes it does. Being that I have to carry around an external for my old MBP I know the feeling well. The problem is, for me anyway, a good solution that goes beyond 1TB.
I think apple went all SSD too soon on the MacBook.
Well the Mac Book is gone, on the AIR it is fine for the market targeted. If you mean Mac Book Pro then I'd have to say you are right, affordable capacity is a huge problem on the retina MBP.
Why not fusion drive?
Good question. On the MBPs the fusion solution could have used a 512 GB SSD paired with a 1TB or larger magnetic drive. This would have bridged over a lot of users until SSDs hit a valid capacity range.
With the spare space from the ODD? The prices of SSD are still too high (if we talk above 500 gb). I am all for the cloud, but having to be constantly connected to work on my pictures is a pain. Let me store them on my mac! (For a decent price).
For many reasons the cloud still sucks. It is great when everything hums along nicely but suffers from all sorts of issues that crop up from time to time.
If anything apple has to increase storage on the mbp. Cloud is, at the moment, for more portable devices (iPad, iPhone and MBAir). The pro is a different league. Storage and performance are paramount not optionals or gimmicks...
I don't think the new Mac Pro will have an optical drive but it will have Ethernet. With 8GB USB thumbdrives only costing $5 (and sold in packs of 3 or 4!) you can afford to give them away to your clients.
I'd imagine the counter-arguemnt to that is, "But if you mail someone a USB flash drive you're out $5 but if you give you someone a DL-DVD you're out $3*" but that fails to consider Dropbox and other file sharing services.
* First hit on Amazon. 3-pack for about $9. I didn't account for shipping or tax costs.
Comments
Dropping of the old models will depend on sales and user feedback. I suspect Apple is dealing with a Mini rebellion here with people completely rejecting the feature set of the retina MBPs. The rMBP simply are not a machine with a configuration set that many pro users are willing to adopt, excellent screen or not. Apple might try to force rMBP down users throats when they can get the price down but that isn't likely to go over well at all. The reality is user have a choice in the AIR models if a limited feature set is OK by them.
It could be the Retina isn't selling well but it may also be that the Retina is sell well but the older MBPs are also sell well enough to keep them around. The Pod mini far outsold the later renamed iPod Classic, and the iPod Nano outsold both of them, and perhaps even the iPod Shuffle despite its much lower price, but they still kept the iPod Classic around. On top of that aren't the iPod Touches accounting for about half of all iPod sales since it's release [citation needed]? I think that shows that it selling well enough without any real cost to them in R&D can keep a product around even if other models are selling through the roof.
WiFi is certainly not a replacement for all types of networked communication, especially in regards to security, but they are both interchangeable for all intents and purposes as they are networking technologies.
I'd say the success of the MBA, the rise of the netbook, the iPad, and now Ultrabook-class notebooks is proof that people are selling less of a need to have an ODD not only on them at all times but built into their notebook at all times.
Speaking of "mini" recall that Apple completely dropped the ODD from their entry-level desktop PC before moving that to their 15" MBP, then their 13" MBP, and then their iMacs. If this was a major issue and not having an ODD in the MBAs or the iPad wasn't enough to create the rebellion then removing it from a desktop PC should have set off all the alarms if there were going to be any. I am not convinced the next Mac Pro will even have an ODD, and if it does I'd guess it will be only slot for the drive, not two.
As to AIRs and UltraBooks that is not an argument for mainstream laptops. These machines serve an entirely different market than the mainstream.
It is interesting that you acknowledge some of the issues with Ethernet and justify it existence but dismiss the same arguments when it comes to optical drives. To put it plainly if a dongle is clumsy a external optical is ten times worst.
I hope this analyst is spot on. Those all sound like tempting upgrades.
I heard rumor that the Mac Pro will be a total redesign. Let's hope so as that form factor is long in the tooth. With SSDs, the new Intel Chips, and retina display these offerings will kick-butt.
I don't think anyone is "hating on" those that want an optical drive. The market is shifting away from it though.
If somebodies WiFi usage is limited to his Mamas basement he won't have any concept of why Ethernet is needed in the real world. All the justifications I've seen so far revolve around use WiFi or a dongle, but these people just don't realize that WiFi just isn't possible in many many cases. Further most Ethernet dongles just plain suck. At least the USB ones do.
The problem is you have posted this point but nobody here will accept it as fact. Instead they just champion Apples decisions without critical thought.
If you aren't using an ODD to boot your machine for general use the way one might only use Ethernet to connect to a network for general use then your point has merit and a machine without an ODD would be quite cumbersome, but I don't see a nearly continuous and absolute need for an ODD for Mac users.
Now you're not even being reasonable. :no: Do you really think that everyone said they needed and wanted Ethernet, ODD and 120 PPI display in their MBP until Apple removed it? I've been using an OptiBay drive in my MBP since it first came arrived.
Apple made something that didn't quite fit my needs so I adapted. Something this means modifying your kit, sometimes this means changing vendors, and sometimes this means modifying your expectations. If you can't do the first two you need to do the last one and stop implying everyone that is happy with a change you don't like are mindless iSheep.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
Are you sticking with an older MBP or gong with the USB or TB-to-Ethernet dongle?
If WiFi isn't completely out of the question and the Ethernet you're plugging is designed to also with a IP phone then plugging in a small PoE wireless router could be a solution.
I have wifi at home. A lot of corporations have policies where DMZ structured net access is best controlled in a subnet via ethernet and not wifi. It's akin to how come some many corporations still have T1/ISDN infrastructure and for good reason, with the exception that 1GbE or 10GbE is always going to be better than a over-the-air mesh network of wifi.
You do realize that this is an argument for MBPs with optical drives. That drive give people this very option, something they can't do with the retina MBP. It is just another way that the original MBP is an all around better platform than the Retina machine. Too many people here want to turn the retina MBP into an AIR. A 15" AIR would be nice but like the current retina machine it won't meet every bodies needs.
Quote:
Originally Posted by wizard69
If somebodies WiFi usage is limited to his Mamas basement he won't have any concept of why Ethernet is needed in the real world. All the justifications I've seen so far revolve around use WiFi or a dongle, but these people just don't realize that WiFi just isn't possible in many many cases. Further most Ethernet dongles just plain suck. At least the USB ones do.
The problem is you have posted this point but nobody here will accept it as fact. Instead they just champion Apples decisions without critical thought.
It's also a reason how come Apple still have GigE on every iMac, Mac Pro, Macbook Pro, Mac Mini, and even 100BaseT on the AppleTV. It's also the reason I will never buy either a Macbook Pro or Macbook Air and purchase a separate effin' dongle ($29 adaptor just to get back a $1 GigE port that unfortunately takes bandwidth away from the PCI bus it uses).
I agree that blu ray us a dead tech. But in most of the world we are stuck with it. No Hulu or Netflix, no specific apps. Either iTunes Store, with a smaller selection (as in crappily smaller, even in original English language) or cable provided on demand video which cost an arm and a leg... As long as worldwide licensing isn't rethought, many countries are unfortunately still stuck with either physical media or very expensive movies..
Blu ray, though, was doa..
Yet, more content (some content) would be appreciated... Thank Hollywood. I'd pay for it!
Sometimes that can be over the top. I see little reason for many companies to have a blanket no-wireless rule specifically for security sake. It's a lot more likely that an attack will come from the internet and espionage will come from a connected device that was either infected from the outside (either from IT or user error) or internally by an employee. Encrypted and password protected WiFi, especially if it connects with a RADIUS server will not only offer select users authentication and access but also accounting. Controlling the range of the network by power and antennas (if applicable) can be a chore by yourself since you need to walk around and basically do a Verizonesque "Can you connect me now?" with a machine that has a good antenna (best not to test with a smartphone or you might make the fence larger than you expect).
If you believe all of that nonsense you have posted above, fine live in denial, just realize that Apple already makes computers for you. They should also service customers with vastly different needs which computers with Ethernet and ODD do. Actually many of us live in very high tech areas and have access to all of those goodies but still need the hardware discussed to get the job done. First off you are in the minority when it comes to professional users. Second nobody is inconvenienced in the least because Apple has different models available to service different needs. The rational thing for Apple here is to continue to service those needs. I bet your mother is very proud of you and your ability to understand the needs of others.
Originally Posted by wizard69
I don't think that tests anything. If the original MBP stays around this yer it will likely be because the retina isn't selling that well.
That doesn't make any sense. I still say price over anything.
And yeah, it does. Apple dropped a FireWire from the first-gen MacBook Pro, hell was raised, and it was brought back. If Ethernet is brought back (I don't believe it will be), well…
Originally Posted by wizard69
I suspect Apple is dealing with a Mini rebellion here with people completely rejecting the feature set of the retina MBPs.
I suspect that's nonsense.
I don't think the new Mac Pro will have an optical drive but it will have Ethernet. With 8GB USB thumbdrives only costing $5 (and sold in packs of 3 or 4!) you can afford to give them away to your clients.
I guess it's because it was an aluminum unibody chassis that people believe that FW was removed from the 13" MBP, but that is not the case. They removed FW400 from the aluminum MB in 2008 and from all the ploy carbonate MBs a year later. When they made a 13" MB Pro they included FW800 which in all MBPs up until last year with the RMBPs.
What would you expect from a Republican?
Yep disk space is always an issue as is the ability to back up a days shoot in the field just in case. Well I'm not a fan of huge machines myself but I don't really understand what the sales situation with the 17" MBP was. We can only hope that it comes back as a retina machine one day for those that need it. Even that is a small drive for field work. But again the people here supporting Apple apparently don't actually work with their machines. By that I mean use the machine as a tool to earn a living. If they did they wouldn't be in such a hurry to see a homogenized line from Apple. Yes it does. Being that I have to carry around an external for my old MBP I know the feeling well. The problem is, for me anyway, a good solution that goes beyond 1TB. Well the Mac Book is gone, on the AIR it is fine for the market targeted. If you mean Mac Book Pro then I'd have to say you are right, affordable capacity is a huge problem on the retina MBP. Good question. On the MBPs the fusion solution could have used a 512 GB SSD paired with a 1TB or larger magnetic drive. This would have bridged over a lot of users until SSDs hit a valid capacity range. For many reasons the cloud still sucks. It is great when everything hums along nicely but suffers from all sorts of issues that crop up from time to time.
People simply don't grasp this.
I'd imagine the counter-arguemnt to that is, "But if you mail someone a USB flash drive you're out $5 but if you give you someone a DL-DVD you're out $3*" but that fails to consider Dropbox and other file sharing services.
* First hit on Amazon. 3-pack for about $9. I didn't account for shipping or tax costs.