Well I was kind of irritated at the time, and I figured you were too jaded to read everything. I'll try to explain this one more time. Surveys and studies aren't perfect, but they can be representative of patterns at a large scale if they're well executed. Generally there's a margin of error and context provided for review, and even then they have to be interpreted properly. When you start to talk about a specific company, store, or employee, you can't directly apply that randomized data, as your sample group has changed. It went from being the US to a specific company that may perform better or worse than the mean. You can't tell someone they slack off a specific amount of time per day simply because a study suggests that a specific percentage of individuals in the US do so. That is why individuals are generally reviewed on an individual basis. In my opinion your own experiences have impressed a certain amount of bias, which happens to everyone.
The second thing would be whether that data even matters in the context of the lawsuit. As I mentioned they can fire people who waste too much time. Apple may not have the option to hold them there on unpaid time. That may be part of what they are trying to prove. If that's the case, the first topic is unlikely to change anything. They have remedies. Leveraging additional time for bag checks may not be one of them.
To your first point. Those [links] where just the first couple found with a quick search. There has been many, many studies from all over the workforce spectrum. Just because you work for a certain retailer does not remove you from the statistic. Humans nature applies to all humans. Not everyone steals time as much as others, and I'm sure, from my experience, most (90%) don't mean any harm by this. Whatever company you work for, the statistics stand. It is not a job environment issue,as much as it is a human nature issue. People are more social prone than work prone so when they have the opportunity to socialize vs. work, they will.
To your second point. I never argued that Apple won't have to pay, but that they will as they are the whipping boy of big business.
As I mentioned they can fire people who waste too much time
I love what you say here. "waste too much time" According to the lawsuit, 5 minutes is too much time. So by the standard the employees judge Apple, so shall they also be judged, and every employee that waste even 5 minutes should be docked pay or fired. How ridiculous does that sound? As ridiculous as the employee demanding that 5 minutes at the end of their day sounds.
Furthermore, managers are not always able to see everyone and what everyone is doing. 1-2 managers per store and 50 employees; not going to happen. Employees know when managers are busy and that is the opportune time to check email, text, surf the web, sneak out for a coffee or smoke. At one retail store I took over, it was so bad we implemented a no phone while on work policy and you had to keep it in your car, or in the office. So back to your point, every company should have cameras recording workers and when the manager has time, they review the video and dock employees for every 5 minutes of wasted time.
To my only point. People are hypocrites stealing time at an average of 1.5 hours per day and demanding 5 minutes. Employees would screen if they were docked pay or fired for talking to friends or texting or emailing or just standing around. They give no regard to stealing vast amounts of time from the employer, but to the judge if the employer takes 5 minutes of their time. Reminds me of a parable in the Bible of the Unforgiving Servant. Matthew 18:21-35
To your second point. I never argued that Apple won't have to pay, but that they will as they are the whipping boy of big business.
I suspect you read more about Apple if this is your predominant news source. It could happen to any profitable company. If the company was in dire financial shape, what law firm would take the case? I stated before that in Apple's case, or any other similar one, the argument would be one over whether this is legal. Employee efficiency doesn't necessarily dictate whether certain behavior by the employer is legal. I'm being a little ambiguous as I don't feel like researching federal and state labor laws at the moment.
Quote:
I love what you say here. "waste too much time" According to the lawsuit, 5 minutes is too much time. So by the standard the employees judge Apple, so shall they also be judged, and every employee that waste even 5 minutes should be docked pay or fired. How ridiculous does that sound? As ridiculous as the employee demanding that 5 minutes at the end of their day sounds.
I fully understand your point, yet it's up to whatever company to decide at what point it's worth firing someone. What continues to irritate me is that you extrapolate it to all individuals. The study suggests something, and you automatically apply it to every individual. At least here you conceded that there is variation. I noticed it was a quick google search before you stated that. It's obvious to me from the results, especially when they accompany a short post. You should keep in mind that many articles can reference the same studies, although I couldn't find the sources used on two of those.
Quote:
Furthermore, managers are not always able to see everyone and what everyone is doing. 1-2 managers per store and 50 employees; not going to happen. Employees know when managers are busy and that is the opportune time to check email, text, surf the web, sneak out for a coffee or smoke. At one retail store I took over, it was so bad we implemented a no phone while on work policy and you had to keep it in your car, or in the office. So back to your point, every company should have cameras recording workers and when the manager has time, they review the video and dock employees for every 5 minutes of wasted time.
Some workplaces do have policies that people must keep their phones turned off while on shift, as business numbers can be used for contact in the case of emergencies, and for non-emergencies, there are always breaks. Your last suggestion is probably not legal. Anyway I'm not sure you can really combat that through micro-management. When I initially read this article, my suspicion was that the employees probably had staggered shifts and would take lunch breaks at different times. This means a lot of intermittent "check outs" throughout the day spread among however many people authorized to do these are on staff at any given time. It specified 15 minutes at the high end. I suspect there are times when managers are just tied up.
Funny how everyone is concerned about the workers but management gets a free pass. Do managers work every single minute of every hour? Are they robots that don't check their emails, twitter, Facebook, etc....?
Funny how everyone is concerned about the workers but management gets a free pass. Do managers work every single minute of every hour? Are they robots that don't check their emails, twitter, Facebook, etc....?
Managers are salary and work more hours than they sign up for, this I know from 15 years of managing. Most base pay is on 45 hour work weeks and then you work 50-60 hours per week.
Managers are salary and work more hours than they sign up for, this I know from 15 years of managing. Most base pay is on 45 hour work weeks and then you work 50-60 hours per week.
That's not what I asked. Are managers exempt from scrutiny or beyond reproach because they're salaried?
I fully understand your point, yet it's up to whatever company to decide at what point it's worth firing someone. What continues to irritate me is that you extrapolate it to all individuals. The study suggests something, and you automatically apply it to every individual. At least here you conceded that there is variation. I noticed it was a quick google search before you stated that. It's obvious to me from the results, especially when they accompany a short post. You should keep in mind that many articles can reference the same studies, although I couldn't find the sources used on two of those.
Yes, as ALL individuals do not work 100% of the time they are at work. Where do you get the idea that anyone does? I don't concede there are variations, I have always said 'on average'. Some people work harder and at 90% of the time they are at work, some probably 60%. People working on in production probably more as their work is more defined by a process. Same with the cashiers who is at the register the entire shift. But that is why they are averages, and neither case applies to Apple workers.
Again, it was a quick search as I don't have the time to pull the research for you. Obviously, it would matter none if I did as you glorify the Apple retail employees. Wait, are you one? You must be as hard as you are defending them.
Quote:
Some workplaces do have policies that people must keep their phones turned off while on shift, as business numbers can be used for contact in the case of emergencies, and for non-emergencies, there are always breaks. Your last suggestion is probably not legal. Anyway I'm not sure you can really combat that through micro-management. When I initially read this article, my suspicion was that the employees probably had staggered shifts and would take lunch breaks at different times. This means a lot of intermittent "check outs" throughout the day spread among however many people authorized to do these are on staff at any given time. It specified 15 minutes at the high end. I suspect there are times when managers are just tied up.
I don't know what the circumstances are, nor to my point does it matter much.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. Thanks for the chat, be well!
Yes, as ALL individuals do not work 100% of the time they are at work. Where do you get the idea that anyone does? I don't concede there are variations, I have always said 'on average'. Some people work harder and at 90% of the time they are at work, some probably 60%. People working on in production probably more as their work is more defined by a process. Same with the cashiers who is at the register the entire shift. But that is why they are averages, and neither case applies to Apple workers.
Again, it was a quick search as I don't have the time to pull the research for you. Obviously, it would matter none if I did as you glorify the Apple retail employees. Wait, are you one? You must be as hard as you are defending them.
That would be incorrect. I've never worked for Apple, and I don't work in retail. I was pointing out how to interpret the context of collected data. Apple employees on average could be on either end of the mean when examined across all stores or in a given store, but as I said, it's unlikely that it would affect the case either way.
Quote:
I don't know what the circumstances are, nor to my point does it matter much.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. Thanks for the chat, be well!
Yes, as ALL individuals do not work 100% of the time they are at work. Where do you get the idea that anyone does? I don't concede there are variations, I have always said 'on average'. Some people work harder and at 90% of the time they are at work, some probably 60%. People working on in production probably more as their work is more defined by a process. Same with the cashiers who is at the register the entire shift. But that is why they are averages, and neither case applies to Apple workers.
Again, it was a quick search as I don't have the time to pull the research for you. Obviously, it would matter none if I did as you glorify the Apple retail employees. Wait, are you one? You must be as hard as you are defending them.
I don't know what the circumstances are, nor to my point does it matter much.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. Thanks for the chat, be well!
Shoot how much money do baseball players get for doing their job 1/3 of the time? Lol
Comments
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm
Well I was kind of irritated at the time, and I figured you were too jaded to read everything. I'll try to explain this one more time. Surveys and studies aren't perfect, but they can be representative of patterns at a large scale if they're well executed. Generally there's a margin of error and context provided for review, and even then they have to be interpreted properly. When you start to talk about a specific company, store, or employee, you can't directly apply that randomized data, as your sample group has changed. It went from being the US to a specific company that may perform better or worse than the mean. You can't tell someone they slack off a specific amount of time per day simply because a study suggests that a specific percentage of individuals in the US do so. That is why individuals are generally reviewed on an individual basis. In my opinion your own experiences have impressed a certain amount of bias, which happens to everyone.
The second thing would be whether that data even matters in the context of the lawsuit. As I mentioned they can fire people who waste too much time. Apple may not have the option to hold them there on unpaid time. That may be part of what they are trying to prove. If that's the case, the first topic is unlikely to change anything. They have remedies. Leveraging additional time for bag checks may not be one of them.
To your first point. Those [links] where just the first couple found with a quick search. There has been many, many studies from all over the workforce spectrum. Just because you work for a certain retailer does not remove you from the statistic. Humans nature applies to all humans. Not everyone steals time as much as others, and I'm sure, from my experience, most (90%) don't mean any harm by this. Whatever company you work for, the statistics stand. It is not a job environment issue,as much as it is a human nature issue. People are more social prone than work prone so when they have the opportunity to socialize vs. work, they will.
To your second point. I never argued that Apple won't have to pay, but that they will as they are the whipping boy of big business.
As I mentioned they can fire people who waste too much time
I love what you say here. "waste too much time" According to the lawsuit, 5 minutes is too much time. So by the standard the employees judge Apple, so shall they also be judged, and every employee that waste even 5 minutes should be docked pay or fired. How ridiculous does that sound? As ridiculous as the employee demanding that 5 minutes at the end of their day sounds.
Furthermore, managers are not always able to see everyone and what everyone is doing. 1-2 managers per store and 50 employees; not going to happen. Employees know when managers are busy and that is the opportune time to check email, text, surf the web, sneak out for a coffee or smoke. At one retail store I took over, it was so bad we implemented a no phone while on work policy and you had to keep it in your car, or in the office. So back to your point, every company should have cameras recording workers and when the manager has time, they review the video and dock employees for every 5 minutes of wasted time.
To my only point. People are hypocrites stealing time at an average of 1.5 hours per day and demanding 5 minutes. Employees would screen if they were docked pay or fired for talking to friends or texting or emailing or just standing around. They give no regard to stealing vast amounts of time from the employer, but to the judge if the employer takes 5 minutes of their time. Reminds me of a parable in the Bible of the Unforgiving Servant. Matthew 18:21-35
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Getz
To your second point. I never argued that Apple won't have to pay, but that they will as they are the whipping boy of big business.
I suspect you read more about Apple if this is your predominant news source. It could happen to any profitable company. If the company was in dire financial shape, what law firm would take the case? I stated before that in Apple's case, or any other similar one, the argument would be one over whether this is legal. Employee efficiency doesn't necessarily dictate whether certain behavior by the employer is legal. I'm being a little ambiguous as I don't feel like researching federal and state labor laws at the moment.
Quote:
I love what you say here. "waste too much time" According to the lawsuit, 5 minutes is too much time. So by the standard the employees judge Apple, so shall they also be judged, and every employee that waste even 5 minutes should be docked pay or fired. How ridiculous does that sound? As ridiculous as the employee demanding that 5 minutes at the end of their day sounds.
I fully understand your point, yet it's up to whatever company to decide at what point it's worth firing someone. What continues to irritate me is that you extrapolate it to all individuals. The study suggests something, and you automatically apply it to every individual. At least here you conceded that there is variation. I noticed it was a quick google search before you stated that. It's obvious to me from the results, especially when they accompany a short post. You should keep in mind that many articles can reference the same studies, although I couldn't find the sources used on two of those.
Quote:
Furthermore, managers are not always able to see everyone and what everyone is doing. 1-2 managers per store and 50 employees; not going to happen. Employees know when managers are busy and that is the opportune time to check email, text, surf the web, sneak out for a coffee or smoke. At one retail store I took over, it was so bad we implemented a no phone while on work policy and you had to keep it in your car, or in the office. So back to your point, every company should have cameras recording workers and when the manager has time, they review the video and dock employees for every 5 minutes of wasted time.
Some workplaces do have policies that people must keep their phones turned off while on shift, as business numbers can be used for contact in the case of emergencies, and for non-emergencies, there are always breaks. Your last suggestion is probably not legal. Anyway I'm not sure you can really combat that through micro-management. When I initially read this article, my suspicion was that the employees probably had staggered shifts and would take lunch breaks at different times. This means a lot of intermittent "check outs" throughout the day spread among however many people authorized to do these are on staff at any given time. It specified 15 minutes at the high end. I suspect there are times when managers are just tied up.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soloman
Funny how everyone is concerned about the workers but management gets a free pass. Do managers work every single minute of every hour? Are they robots that don't check their emails, twitter, Facebook, etc....?
Managers are salary and work more hours than they sign up for, this I know from 15 years of managing. Most base pay is on 45 hour work weeks and then you work 50-60 hours per week.
That's not what I asked. Are managers exempt from scrutiny or beyond reproach because they're salaried?
Quote:
Originally Posted by hmm
I fully understand your point, yet it's up to whatever company to decide at what point it's worth firing someone. What continues to irritate me is that you extrapolate it to all individuals. The study suggests something, and you automatically apply it to every individual. At least here you conceded that there is variation. I noticed it was a quick google search before you stated that. It's obvious to me from the results, especially when they accompany a short post. You should keep in mind that many articles can reference the same studies, although I couldn't find the sources used on two of those.
Yes, as ALL individuals do not work 100% of the time they are at work. Where do you get the idea that anyone does? I don't concede there are variations, I have always said 'on average'. Some people work harder and at 90% of the time they are at work, some probably 60%. People working on in production probably more as their work is more defined by a process. Same with the cashiers who is at the register the entire shift. But that is why they are averages, and neither case applies to Apple workers.
Again, it was a quick search as I don't have the time to pull the research for you. Obviously, it would matter none if I did as you glorify the Apple retail employees. Wait, are you one? You must be as hard as you are defending them.
Quote:
Some workplaces do have policies that people must keep their phones turned off while on shift, as business numbers can be used for contact in the case of emergencies, and for non-emergencies, there are always breaks. Your last suggestion is probably not legal. Anyway I'm not sure you can really combat that through micro-management. When I initially read this article, my suspicion was that the employees probably had staggered shifts and would take lunch breaks at different times. This means a lot of intermittent "check outs" throughout the day spread among however many people authorized to do these are on staff at any given time. It specified 15 minutes at the high end. I suspect there are times when managers are just tied up.
I don't know what the circumstances are, nor to my point does it matter much.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. Thanks for the chat, be well!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Getz
Yes, as ALL individuals do not work 100% of the time they are at work. Where do you get the idea that anyone does? I don't concede there are variations, I have always said 'on average'. Some people work harder and at 90% of the time they are at work, some probably 60%. People working on in production probably more as their work is more defined by a process. Same with the cashiers who is at the register the entire shift. But that is why they are averages, and neither case applies to Apple workers.
Again, it was a quick search as I don't have the time to pull the research for you. Obviously, it would matter none if I did as you glorify the Apple retail employees. Wait, are you one? You must be as hard as you are defending them.
That would be incorrect. I've never worked for Apple, and I don't work in retail. I was pointing out how to interpret the context of collected data. Apple employees on average could be on either end of the mean when examined across all stores or in a given store, but as I said, it's unlikely that it would affect the case either way.
Quote:
I don't know what the circumstances are, nor to my point does it matter much.
We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one. Thanks for the chat, be well!
Thank you and likewise.
Shoot how much money do baseball players get for doing their job 1/3 of the time? Lol
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soloman
Shoot how much money do baseball players get for doing their job 1/3 of the time? Lol
Please, don't get me onto the waste of sports in Americana today!
Why just American sports? Have you seen the salaries of some of the soccer stars overseas?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Soloman
Why just American sports? Have you seen the salaries of some of the soccer stars overseas?
No, sorry. The only sport I watch is the UFC.