What evidence. We have no FACTS that the 5C isn't selling well. The only one who has sales figures Apple. Wall Street analysts are just making guesses. But guesses aren't FACT!!
Based on broad availability of the iPhone 5C at 3rd party retail, I think we can safely deduce that the supply, whatever that was, outstripped demand, whatever that is, by a healthy margin. I would not be surprised if Apple's 5C build plans do, in fact, back off for a bit. I think that analysts should qualify it that way but not try so hard to quantify it. We have seen in the past that they are completely unable to quantify things.
China Mobile is probably going to subsidize. I know its unprecedented for that company, but the other Chinese carriers decided to subsidize iPhones, and this has most likely been one of Apple's "non-negotiable" requirements of the deal.
Thompson
They may subsidize, but you need to understand China better. Apple went to China Mobile, not the other way around. China Mobile is state owned and NOBODY is going to dictate to them, hence the reason this deal is taking so long. I suspect that the reason this deal is actually happening is because the MIIT (read government) has become concerned that Android is becoming too dominant and wants to try and even things out a bit.
They may subsidize, but you need to understand China better. Apple went to China Mobile, not the other way around. China Mobile is state owned and NOBODY is going to dictate to them, hence the reason this deal is taking so long. I suspect that the reason this deal is actually happening is because the MIIT (read government) has become concerned that Android is becoming too dominant and wants to try and even things out a bit.
Oh I assure you I understand that China Mobile is a stern negotiator. They not only have that in their culture, but CM is also the big gorilla of carriers and has been under scant pressure to bend (until recently... maybe). And I will even go so far as to agree that Apple probably initiated first contact years ago.
But I believe that Apple, like China Mobile, came to the table with a healthy dose of negotiating points and a few "non-negotiable" ones. This is not the same as believing Apple "dictated" the terms. In other words BOTH parties stuck to their guns as best they could. Hence, as you say, the reason the deal is taking so long (along with other technical issues). If only China Mobile were strong and Apple caved, then it would have been done long ago.
Based on the evidence we have at hand (other China Telcos adopting subsidies and cutting into China Mobile's high-end data users) as well as the pricing structure put forward by Apple on the 5C, my read is that the subsidy is one of Apple's points that was accepted by China Mobile. And, let's face it, China Mobile wants to move these things too. Hopefully in numbers that rival or surpass their competition. Otherwise why bother making the deal in the first place?
I think that in Apple, China Mobile finally had an equally patient - and formidable - partner at the negotiating table. What I wouldn't give for a transcript of all of those meetings!
I agree. If Apple really wanted to move the 5c's (which apparently they do from all the advertising they have for them) the price should have been $49 w/ contract or $499 off contract to begin with. $49 is much more in the impulse purchase range and would have garnered a lot more attention from the masses without killing Apple's margins.
Apple wants to sell as many as they can make of everything they sell. I think the 5c probably has lower margins than the 5s, so they would rather sell a 5s than a 5c, but it's probably easier to manufacture a 5c, because it's basically just an iPhone 5 (which they have a year of experience making) with a simpler-to-manufacture plastic body. They probably don't need to push the 5s as hard, because they are probably selling them about as fast as they can make them (according to recent reports) so they are focusing on pushing the 5c.
It only makes sense to compare the success of the 5c with the success of the 2nd-tier offering from last year, which was the 4s, taking into consideration the fact that you want to minimize cannibalization of sales that would otherwise have gone to the 5s. This would be hard to determine, but the fact that the 5s has remained in slightly limited supply would seem to indicate that weak 5s sales are not an issue.
Also, as others have noted, the 5c appears to be selling for $45-50 at Best Buy, Target and WalMart.
It also runs better on my iPhone 4 than iOS6 did. Although, I am seeing a few (rare) crashes, but did not see any at all with iOS6.
iOS7 wrecked my iP4 (not "S"). I wish I could go back to 6. With 7, every single function is delayed by roughly two seconds. It's very, very frustrating to swipe and nothing happens, so I swipe again, only to then have it suddenly "catch up" and respond to the second swipe from the new page. Or press Skip and nothing happens, so I press it again and again and again then it suddenly clues in and skips four times.
The only crashes I've seen are when deleting files from the video player. They are not particularly disruptive. That part is fine.
The 4 just isn't enough computer for the demands imposed by iOS7.
Apple will show great numbers for the 5C in the holiday quarter.
I agree. In fact, I expect the 5C to outsell the Mocrosoft XBox One, the MS Surfaces, AND the MS/Nokia phone combined during the holiday season. You can even throw the Nintendo WII sales number into that pile of MS crap too.
Those who buy the 5c would have bought the one-year-old iPhone 5 this season, not something better. Instead they get a refreshed product with the same specs.
The big *PLUS* here is that Apple made it more exciting for the kiddies - the REAL recipients of the holiday largess. Apple expects big things this holiday season. Watch those 5c ads begin to evolve during November...
They should have upgraded the specs to be close to the 5S. No one is going to upgrade to a 5C if it isn't any better than a 5. If they wanted a 5 they would have gotten one already. This was one of the most idiotic product ideas I've ever seen at Apple. "We'll sell them last year's phone - but thicker and in plastic colors!"
Apparently over 10 million thought it was a good deal, including my girlfriend. She was holding off for the last few months. She had a broken 3GS. She switched from AT&T to T-Mobile. T-Mobile is selling the 5c for zero down. She is jumping up three generations. The 5c is a lot thinner and lighter than her 3GS, the iPhone 4 and iPhone 4S.
Moreover, the phone has a better battery the iPhone 5, and a better Facetime camera. Further, she likes the colors. She has a clear case by Switch easy that lets the color shine through. Time might also determine the antenna is better than the 5S, as I know my old 3GS had better reception then the iPhone 4 and 4S. Bottom line: she loves it, and I have played with it. It is a very well made phone. Don't get me wrong, I am going with the 5s, but I want the latest and greatest.
Finally, I doubt the 5c is supposed to sell more than the 5s anymore than the year old 5 would be expected to sell more than the 5s. Here is what you also are missing. Apple has a very hard time making the aluminum cases for the 5c. This is the same case for the 5. How much longer do you think the 5s would be backlogged if Apple still had to produce cases for the 5 as well. The same equipment is used for both. This move was brilliant on Apple's part. It tookpressure off the iPhone 5s by freeing up needed equipment, and by sending some sales to the 5c.
I also don't necessarily believe this report. The same time last year, it was reported that the iPhone 5 was not selling. Supposedly, that was tied to Apple cutting back on parts orders. Apple just revised its SEC statement to suggest it will earn more than previously expected. It is selling a lot of phones.
I agree. In fact, I expect the 5C to outsell the Mocrosoft XBox One, the MS Surfaces, AND the MS/Nokia phone combined during the holiday season. You can even throw the Nintendo WII sales number into that pile of MS crap too.
Those who buy the 5c would have bought the one-year-old iPhone 5 this season, not something better. Insteadthey get a refreshed product with the same specs.
The big *PLUS* here is that Apple made it more exciting for the kiddies - the REAL recipients of the holiday largess. Apple expects big things this holiday season. Watch those 5c ads begin to evolve during November...
Better specs. It has a better battery, and an improved Facetime camera.
iOS7 wrecked my iP4 (not "S"). I wish I could go back to 6. With 7, every single function is delayed by roughly two seconds. It's very, very frustrating to swipeand nothing happens, so I swipe again, only to then have it suddenly "catch up" and respond to the second swipe from the new page. Or press Skip and nothing happens, so I press it again and again and again then it suddenly clues in and skips four times.
The only crashes I've seen are when deleting files from the video player. They are not particularly disruptive. That part is fine.
The 4 just isn't enough computer for the demands imposed by iOS7.
Strange. I have it installed on an iPhone 4 that I am currently using. I love it. For the most part, I have not noticed what you are talking about.
Apple wants to sell as many as they can make of everything they sell. I think the 5c probably has lower margins than the 5s, so they would rather sell a 5s than a 5c, but it's probably easier to manufacture a 5c, because it's basically just an iPhone 5 (which they have a year of experience making) with a simpler-to-manufacture plastic body. They probably don't need to push the 5s as hard, because they are probably selling them about as fast as they can make them (according to recent reports) so they are focusing on pushing the 5c.
It only makes sense to compare the success of the 5c with the success of the 2nd-tier offering from last year, which was the 4s, taking into consideration the fact that you want to minimize cannibalization of sales that would otherwise have gone to the 5s. This would be hard to determine, but the fact that the 5s has remained in slightly limited supply would seem to indicate that weak 5s sales are not an issue.
Also, as others have noted, the 5c appears to be selling for $45-50 at Best Buy, Target and WalMart.
The 5c lower margins than the 5s? No way. The company that tears the phone apart to try and come up with cost claim the 5c has higher margins then the 5s, but the 5s has higher margins then the 5. Those break downs, however, do not take into consideration things like R & D and marketing.
This is retailers competing for the sales, not retailers trying to move stale inventory. Moreover, everytime the retailer sells aniphone, the carrier pays a bounty. The same thing happened with the release of the iPhone 5.
iOS7 wrecked my iP4 (not "S"). I wish I could go back to 6. With 7, every single function is delayed by roughly two seconds. It's very, very frustrating to swipe and nothing happens, so I swipe again, only to then have it suddenly "catch up" and respond to the second swipe from the new page. Or press Skip and nothing happens, so I press it again and again and again then it suddenly clues in and skips four times.
The only crashes I've seen are when deleting files from the video player. They are not particularly disruptive. That part is fine.
The 4 just isn't enough computer for the demands imposed by iOS7.
Do a backup, wipe and restore from iTunes. Fixes most cases of sluggishness. If not, take it to the nearest Genius Bar and ask them what can be done.
Apparently over 10 million thought it was a good deal, including my girlfriend. She was holding off for the last few months. She had a broken 3GS. She switched from AT&T to T-Mobile. T-Mobile is selling the 5c for zero down. She is jumping up three generations. The 5c is a lot thinner and lighter than her 3GS, the iPhone 4 and iPhone 4S.
Moreover, the phone has a better battery the iPhone 5, and a better Facetime camera. Further, she likes the colors. She has a clear case by Switch easy that lets the color shine through. Time might also determine the antenna is better than the 5S, as I know my old 3GS had better reception then the iPhone 4 and 4S. Bottom line: she loves it, and I have played with it. It is a very well made phone. Don't get me wrong, I am going with the 5s, but I want the latest and greatest.
Finally, I doubt the 5c is supposed to sell more than the 5s anymore than the year old 5 would be expected to sell more than the 5s. Here is what you also are missing. Apple has a very hard time making the aluminum cases for the 5c. This is the same case for the 5. How much longer do you think the 5s would be backlogged if Apple still had to produce cases for the 5 as well. The same equipment is used for both. This move was brilliant on Apple's part. It took pressure off the iPhone 5s by freeing up needed equipment, and by sending some sales to the 5c.
I also don't necessarily believe this report. The same time last year, it was reported that the iPhone 5 was not selling. Supposedly, that was tied to Apple cutting back on parts orders. Apple just revised its SEC statement to suggest it will earn more than previously expected. It is selling a lot of phones.
I would be stunned if they sold 10 million 5c phones in a week. Maybe they shipped that many, but actually sold? No. The ratio the first weekend was 3 to 1 5S to 5C, so figure just under 2 million 5Cs meaning they would have had to sell just over 8 million from Monday to Friday of the last week of the month to hit that 10 million number. If they did that it would be insane, but hard to believe.
Other than those numbers the move to the 5C design was a great move. First, it's a better phone than the 5 so that's incentive for people to buy. Secondly, and probably more important for the bottom line, the margins on it are about 5% better than the 5 and as you noted they avoided any supply constraints with the casing. I would expect something similar every upgrade
The exact filing with the SEC was they expected to come in closer to the high end of the range. Could that be above the estimates? Certainly, but saying they said they would be more than expected is misleading. Now if they sold 17 million phones in the last week you would think they would come in above targets. Guess we'll find out next Friday.
I'm just talking about the US...I could careless about the rest of the world...Sorry to break your heart.
That stunning piece of spelling, punctuation and grammar brought to you by a product of the US education system! LOL!
The attitude probably doesn't have anything to do with being American, though. More likely just an unfortunate manifestation of being an asshole! " src="http://forums-files.appleinsider.com/images/smilies//lol.gif" />
Is it any wonder you're not the President...Please share moron your view of the rest of the world...Knowing you don't care will keep me up at never.
I think iPhone 5C doesn't follow the path that Apple always insist, so honestly saying, I don't treat it as a part of Apple product. With a plastic and colorful body, it has a higher price than we expected. So it is not hard to guess the fail of iPhone 5C.
Comments
What evidence. We have no FACTS that the 5C isn't selling well. The only one who has sales figures Apple. Wall Street analysts are just making guesses. But guesses aren't FACT!!
Based on broad availability of the iPhone 5C at 3rd party retail, I think we can safely deduce that the supply, whatever that was, outstripped demand, whatever that is, by a healthy margin. I would not be surprised if Apple's 5C build plans do, in fact, back off for a bit. I think that analysts should qualify it that way but not try so hard to quantify it. We have seen in the past that they are completely unable to quantify things.
Thompson
China Mobile is probably going to subsidize. I know its unprecedented for that company, but the other Chinese carriers decided to subsidize iPhones, and this has most likely been one of Apple's "non-negotiable" requirements of the deal.
Thompson
They may subsidize, but you need to understand China better. Apple went to China Mobile, not the other way around. China Mobile is state owned and NOBODY is going to dictate to them, hence the reason this deal is taking so long. I suspect that the reason this deal is actually happening is because the MIIT (read government) has become concerned that Android is becoming too dominant and wants to try and even things out a bit.
They may subsidize, but you need to understand China better. Apple went to China Mobile, not the other way around. China Mobile is state owned and NOBODY is going to dictate to them, hence the reason this deal is taking so long. I suspect that the reason this deal is actually happening is because the MIIT (read government) has become concerned that Android is becoming too dominant and wants to try and even things out a bit.
Oh I assure you I understand that China Mobile is a stern negotiator. They not only have that in their culture, but CM is also the big gorilla of carriers and has been under scant pressure to bend (until recently... maybe). And I will even go so far as to agree that Apple probably initiated first contact years ago.
But I believe that Apple, like China Mobile, came to the table with a healthy dose of negotiating points and a few "non-negotiable" ones. This is not the same as believing Apple "dictated" the terms. In other words BOTH parties stuck to their guns as best they could. Hence, as you say, the reason the deal is taking so long (along with other technical issues). If only China Mobile were strong and Apple caved, then it would have been done long ago.
Based on the evidence we have at hand (other China Telcos adopting subsidies and cutting into China Mobile's high-end data users) as well as the pricing structure put forward by Apple on the 5C, my read is that the subsidy is one of Apple's points that was accepted by China Mobile. And, let's face it, China Mobile wants to move these things too. Hopefully in numbers that rival or surpass their competition. Otherwise why bother making the deal in the first place?
I think that in Apple, China Mobile finally had an equally patient - and formidable - partner at the negotiating table. What I wouldn't give for a transcript of all of those meetings!
Thompson
I agree. If Apple really wanted to move the 5c's (which apparently they do from all the advertising they have for them) the price should have been $49 w/ contract or $499 off contract to begin with. $49 is much more in the impulse purchase range and would have garnered a lot more attention from the masses without killing Apple's margins.
Apple wants to sell as many as they can make of everything they sell. I think the 5c probably has lower margins than the 5s, so they would rather sell a 5s than a 5c, but it's probably easier to manufacture a 5c, because it's basically just an iPhone 5 (which they have a year of experience making) with a simpler-to-manufacture plastic body. They probably don't need to push the 5s as hard, because they are probably selling them about as fast as they can make them (according to recent reports) so they are focusing on pushing the 5c.
It only makes sense to compare the success of the 5c with the success of the 2nd-tier offering from last year, which was the 4s, taking into consideration the fact that you want to minimize cannibalization of sales that would otherwise have gone to the 5s. This would be hard to determine, but the fact that the 5s has remained in slightly limited supply would seem to indicate that weak 5s sales are not an issue.
Also, as others have noted, the 5c appears to be selling for $45-50 at Best Buy, Target and WalMart.
You'll be waiting for a long time, Apple never releases sales by model
Sure, but carriers often break down activations by model.
It also runs better on my iPhone 4 than iOS6 did. Although, I am seeing a few (rare) crashes, but did not see any at all with iOS6.
iOS7 wrecked my iP4 (not "S"). I wish I could go back to 6. With 7, every single function is delayed by roughly two seconds. It's very, very frustrating to swipe and nothing happens, so I swipe again, only to then have it suddenly "catch up" and respond to the second swipe from the new page. Or press Skip and nothing happens, so I press it again and again and again then it suddenly clues in and skips four times.
The only crashes I've seen are when deleting files from the video player. They are not particularly disruptive. That part is fine.
The 4 just isn't enough computer for the demands imposed by iOS7.
I agree. In fact, I expect the 5C to outsell the Mocrosoft XBox One, the MS Surfaces, AND the MS/Nokia phone combined during the holiday season. You can even throw the Nintendo WII sales number into that pile of MS crap too.
Those who buy the 5c would have bought the one-year-old iPhone 5 this season, not something better. Instead they get a refreshed product with the same specs.
The big *PLUS* here is that Apple made it more exciting for the kiddies - the REAL recipients of the holiday largess. Apple expects big things this holiday season. Watch those 5c ads begin to evolve during November...
They should have upgraded the specs to be close to the 5S. No one is going to upgrade to a 5C if it isn't any better than a 5. If they wanted a 5 they would have gotten one already. This was one of the most idiotic product ideas I've ever seen at Apple. "We'll sell them last year's phone - but thicker and in plastic colors!"
Apparently over 10 million thought it was a good deal, including my girlfriend. She was holding off for the last few months. She had a broken 3GS. She switched from AT&T to T-Mobile. T-Mobile is selling the 5c for zero down. She is jumping up three generations. The 5c is a lot thinner and lighter than her 3GS, the iPhone 4 and iPhone 4S.
Moreover, the phone has a better battery the iPhone 5, and a better Facetime camera. Further, she likes the colors. She has a clear case by Switch easy that lets the color shine through. Time might also determine the antenna is better than the 5S, as I know my old 3GS had better reception then the iPhone 4 and 4S. Bottom line: she loves it, and I have played with it. It is a very well made phone. Don't get me wrong, I am going with the 5s, but I want the latest and greatest.
Finally, I doubt the 5c is supposed to sell more than the 5s anymore than the year old 5 would be expected to sell more than the 5s. Here is what you also are missing. Apple has a very hard time making the aluminum cases for the 5c. This is the same case for the 5. How much longer do you think the 5s would be backlogged if Apple still had to produce cases for the 5 as well. The same equipment is used for both. This move was brilliant on Apple's part. It took pressure off the iPhone 5s by freeing up needed equipment, and by sending some sales to the 5c.
I also don't necessarily believe this report. The same time last year, it was reported that the iPhone 5 was not selling. Supposedly, that was tied to Apple cutting back on parts orders. Apple just revised its SEC statement to suggest it will earn more than previously expected. It is selling a lot of phones.
I agree. In fact, I expect the 5C to outsell the Mocrosoft XBox One, the MS Surfaces, AND the MS/Nokia phone combined during the holiday season. You can even throw the Nintendo WII sales number into that pile of MS crap too.
Those who buy the 5c would have bought the one-year-old iPhone 5 this season, not something better. Instead they get a refreshed product with the same specs.
The big *PLUS* here is that Apple made it more exciting for the kiddies - the REAL recipients of the holiday largess. Apple expects big things this holiday season. Watch those 5c ads begin to evolve during November...
Better specs. It has a better battery, and an improved Facetime camera.
iOS7 wrecked my iP4 (not "S"). I wish I could go back to 6. With 7, every single function is delayed by roughly two seconds. It's very, very frustrating to swipe and nothing happens, so I swipe again, only to then have it suddenly "catch up" and respond to the second swipe from the new page. Or press Skip and nothing happens, so I press it again and again and again then it suddenly clues in and skips four times.
The only crashes I've seen are when deleting files from the video player. They are not particularly disruptive. That part is fine.
The 4 just isn't enough computer for the demands imposed by iOS7.
Strange. I have it installed on an iPhone 4 that I am currently using. I love it. For the most part, I have not noticed what you are talking about.
Apple wants to sell as many as they can make of everything they sell. I think the 5c probably has lower margins than the 5s, so they would rather sell a 5s than a 5c, but it's probably easier to manufacture a 5c, because it's basically just an iPhone 5 (which they have a year of experience making) with a simpler-to-manufacture plastic body. They probably don't need to push the 5s as hard, because they are probably selling them about as fast as they can make them (according to recent reports) so they are focusing on pushing the 5c.
It only makes sense to compare the success of the 5c with the success of the 2nd-tier offering from last year, which was the 4s, taking into consideration the fact that you want to minimize cannibalization of sales that would otherwise have gone to the 5s. This would be hard to determine, but the fact that the 5s has remained in slightly limited supply would seem to indicate that weak 5s sales are not an issue.
Also, as others have noted, the 5c appears to be selling for $45-50 at Best Buy, Target and WalMart.
The 5c lower margins than the 5s? No way. The company that tears the phone apart to try and come up with cost claim the 5c has higher margins then the 5s, but the 5s has higher margins then the 5. Those break downs, however, do not take into consideration things like R & D and marketing.
Because the 5C is being discounted by many retailers?
See, e.g., http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/walmart-drops-price-phone-5c-45-best-buys/story?id=20474818
This is retailers competing for the sales, not retailers trying to move stale inventory. Moreover, everytime the retailer sells an iphone, the carrier pays a bounty. The same thing happened with the release of the iPhone 5.
FOR THE COLORFUL.
Do a backup, wipe and restore from iTunes. Fixes most cases of sluggishness. If not, take it to the nearest Genius Bar and ask them what can be done.
Unless of course, you've done all that already.
[IMG]http://i43.tinypic.com/fn683c.jpg[/IMG]
Apparently over 10 million thought it was a good deal, including my girlfriend. She was holding off for the last few months. She had a broken 3GS. She switched from AT&T to T-Mobile. T-Mobile is selling the 5c for zero down. She is jumping up three generations. The 5c is a lot thinner and lighter than her 3GS, the iPhone 4 and iPhone 4S.
Moreover, the phone has a better battery the iPhone 5, and a better Facetime camera. Further, she likes the colors. She has a clear case by Switch easy that lets the color shine through. Time might also determine the antenna is better than the 5S, as I know my old 3GS had better reception then the iPhone 4 and 4S. Bottom line: she loves it, and I have played with it. It is a very well made phone. Don't get me wrong, I am going with the 5s, but I want the latest and greatest.
Finally, I doubt the 5c is supposed to sell more than the 5s anymore than the year old 5 would be expected to sell more than the 5s. Here is what you also are missing. Apple has a very hard time making the aluminum cases for the 5c. This is the same case for the 5. How much longer do you think the 5s would be backlogged if Apple still had to produce cases for the 5 as well. The same equipment is used for both. This move was brilliant on Apple's part. It took pressure off the iPhone 5s by freeing up needed equipment, and by sending some sales to the 5c.
I also don't necessarily believe this report. The same time last year, it was reported that the iPhone 5 was not selling. Supposedly, that was tied to Apple cutting back on parts orders. Apple just revised its SEC statement to suggest it will earn more than previously expected. It is selling a lot of phones.
I would be stunned if they sold 10 million 5c phones in a week. Maybe they shipped that many, but actually sold? No. The ratio the first weekend was 3 to 1 5S to 5C, so figure just under 2 million 5Cs meaning they would have had to sell just over 8 million from Monday to Friday of the last week of the month to hit that 10 million number. If they did that it would be insane, but hard to believe.
Other than those numbers the move to the 5C design was a great move. First, it's a better phone than the 5 so that's incentive for people to buy. Secondly, and probably more important for the bottom line, the margins on it are about 5% better than the 5 and as you noted they avoided any supply constraints with the casing. I would expect something similar every upgrade
The exact filing with the SEC was they expected to come in closer to the high end of the range. Could that be above the estimates? Certainly, but saying they said they would be more than expected is misleading. Now if they sold 17 million phones in the last week you would think they would come in above targets. Guess we'll find out next Friday.
I'm just talking about the US...I could careless about the rest of the world...Sorry to break your heart.
That stunning piece of spelling, punctuation and grammar brought to you by a product of the US education system! LOL!
The attitude probably doesn't have anything to do with being American, though. More likely just an unfortunate manifestation of being an asshole!
" src="http://forums-files.appleinsider.com/images/smilies//lol.gif" />
Is it any wonder you're not the President...Please share moron your view of the rest of the world...Knowing you don't care will keep me up at never.
I think iPhone 5C doesn't follow the path that Apple always insist, so honestly saying, I don't treat it as a part of Apple product. With a plastic and colorful body, it has a higher price than we expected. So it is not hard to guess the fail of iPhone 5C.