Dr. King wanted people to be judged on their merits rather than their skin color. If I hire someone based on skin color in order to meet a diversity requirement, am I not going against what King stood for?
I went to Drupal meetup meeting a couple of years ago. This is a very high tech group. It was a free invitation open to ANYONE. Of the 40 or so people who showed up, their were a couple Middle Eastern's (probably Indian) 2 or 3 women and the rest were white males. Not one African American. I know this is a microscopic sample, but I believe if you polled most people in the tech field to find out how many black people were in their technology circle, you'd find very few. The best programmers / designers I know learned code and design on their own time because they loved doing it. It often has little to do with formal education so that's not an excuse either. So what's the reason? It's my belief that few blacks go into technology because the interest level isn't there. Not because they can't and certainly not because they are being kept out by racial conspiracy.
I believe that most Americans want to resolve this, but are so involved in our everyday lives that we hire the governments/politicians to do this for us. This has not worked -- at least not fast enough. We don't need any more Cabrini-Greens.
What would you do?
I am white upper-middle class -- what would you have me do?
The very least thing you can do is recognize when you are displaying Afrophobia, also known as 'Anti-Black' bias. Hopefully by recognizing when you do it, it will make you more sensitive to when it happens. If you want to do more, go and volunteer at a predominately black school, tout the benefits of learning math and begin able to read well. The counter of anti-black bias is implicit trust in what authoritative white males say. Or, and I could totally understand not wanting to be around other people's children, mentor someone where you work. And if there is no one there to mentor, then find someone who is worthy. By mentor, I am not saying give someone the civics lesson of American government (this is a metaphor), but give them the low down, tell them how the game is really played and encourage them to get what they need to get in it. Treat them like they are as capable, but maybe not as knowledgeable, as you are. And be strait with them about it. Call them on their B.S. and encourage them when they get a legit win. Be a friend.
So Jesse is happy with a token? Microsoft's and Adobe's CEOs aren't exactly "Caucasian", right. It would be wrong to not offer an opportunity to anyone based on race, but you can't demand inclusion if there without relevant contribution. It also assumes any race based appointment would have a race based agenda.
Anyway, look to the POTUS and Cosmos 2014 presenter. Just fabulous.
Jackson has been irrelevant for years and rightfully so. He is a race after with zero credibility. Taking the time to respond is actually a waste of time. Enough said.
Maybe Apple should include a non-white person on their BOD. But, if it is just for appearances, I think it would be a mistake. It should be someone who can reach out and influence other corporations, the disadvantaged and the general public -- and benefit Apple and the world community at large.
My first choice would be Ervin Johnson.
Who'd be your choice?
Not Magic, he is as exploitative as a plantation owner. I would go with Neil deGrasse-Tyson or some black girl in a high school physics class.
Most coaches have a good mind for the game but lacked the physical ability to be a successful player, and need the work. Black players with a good mind for the game are more often than not physically gifted and have successful NFL and end up wealthy and don't need to coach.
This isn't unique to sports. Which is where the saying 'those that can't do (or do successfully), teach' comes from.
Not every athlete is a great player. There are many blacks that know the game just as well as whites but they aren't getting opportunities.
That is simple because the US government has done more to destroy practical and useful education in this country in the last couple of decades than most people realize.
Put simply, programming isn't on the standardized tests that determine if teachers and administrators keep their jobs. Thus, it isn't going to be taught.
I always found it interesting that of the amazing Japanese educational system the people in charge in the US chose the one thing that was pretty universally despised by students and teachers alike, standardized testing.
If you are a conspiracy theorist, it begs the question of why the top 1% in this country are pushing such educational "reforms" so hard? Especially when you consider that these reforms only apply to the public schools which their kids don't attend?
Because a few school systems are failing and something needs to change. Whatever they did previously isn't working.
Certainly Chinese and Jewish-Americans are not getting the NFL opportunities.
As Chinese, I can say that we are generally too small to play professional sports. Besides our parents push us to learn musical instruments and become a professional.
I say hire the best people for the job whatever their color, age, sex etc.
I have a dream that one day people will be hired not for the color of their skin....
Yes, but how does one evaluate who is best for the job? Many employers, HR people and supervisors hire people not only on the basis of a resume and experience, but who they feel "comfortable" with - who they can relate to, even if they do that on a subconscious level.
And even though they might not think of themselves as the least bit racist, sexist or ageist, who they feel most comfortable with might be someone just like themselves. And so the discrimination becomes self-reinforcing. This is how minorities, women and older people are frequently excluded from consideration at tech (and other types of) firms. People think, "Is this someone I want to have a beer with...is this someone I want to be working around every day."
Having said that, making up for this at the corporate level is a bit late in the process. Equality and diversity needs to take place at the college level so that minorities and women are taking the appropriate courses and majors in the first place. And that means getting them interested in tech careers at the high school level. So if Jackson is really serious about this, he'd be doing something about the lack of technical training at public high schools, especially those that have large percentages of minority students, which is I'm sure his major concern.
At Boardroom level, it's another story. Those frequently are "old-boys clubs" and more should be done at most companies to insure diversity.
As Chinese, I can say that we are generally too small to play professional sports. Besides our parents push us to learn musical instruments and become a professional.
Play soccer. Most of the professional players are under 6',
So Jesse is happy with a token? Microsoft's and Adobe's CEOs aren't exactly "Caucasian", right. It would be wrong to not offer an opportunity to anyone based on race, but you can't demand inclusion if there without relevant contribution. It also assumes any race based appointment would have a race based agenda.
Anyway, look to the POTUS and Cosmos 2014 presenter. Just fabulous.
If the pay is good, being a token ain't bad!
Isn't that setting the bar too low?
Rather than a black member of the white good old boys club, wouldn't you rather have a role model and advocate for the black youth?
I believe that most Americans want to resolve this, but are so involved in our everyday lives that we hire the governments/politicians to do this for us. This has not worked -- at least not fast enough. We don't need any more Cabrini-Greens.
What would you do?
I am white upper-middle class -- what would you have me do?
The very least thing you can do is recognize when you are displaying Afrophobia, also known as 'Anti-Black' bias. Hopefully by recognizing when you do it, it will make you more sensitive to when it happens. If you want to do more, go and volunteer at a predominately black school, tout the benefits of learning math and begin able to read well. The counter of anti-black bias is implicit trust in what authoritative white males say. Or, and I could totally understand not wanting to be around other people's children, mentor someone where you work. And if there is no one there to mentor, then find someone who is worthy. By mentor, I am not saying give someone the civics lesson of American government (this is a metaphor), but give them the low down, tell them how the game is really played and encourage them to get what they need to get in it. Treat them like they are as capable, but maybe not as knowledgeable, as you are. And be strait with them about it. Call them on their B.S. and encourage them when they get a legit win. Be a friend.
Mmm... Let me ponder this for a while, there are some of your suggestions I cannot do but I do want to do something!
Agreed. And people should not automatically assume injustice and present their biased perceptions as factual evidence.
The point is that there are an extremely disproportionate number of non-whites athletes in the NFL and NBA, so using Jesse Jackson's logic, we must automatically assume that there is some kind of racial bias against white men in the NFL and NBA. Unless you want to make the augment that everyone is getting a fair shake and white men are simply inferior when it comes to certain occupations like professional football and basketball, which would be a somewhat biased opinion, wouldn't you think?
This qoute from his letter certainly sounds like he's talking about head count, "Rainbow PUSH is seeking meetings with tech leaders to address these ZEROES head on." And it's a little presumptuous to automatically assume that a biased selection and/or development process is in place. Unless Jesse Jackson has some specific information that points to it, it is completely comjecture on his part and somewhat irresponsible. Again, if he is implying that there are just as many non-white men and women who are qualified for these jobs but were denied due to biases, we can make the same argument for the lack of white men in the NFL and NBA. Unless you believe that white men just aren't as good at playing football or basketball, which would be a somewhat biased viewpoint in the same way that it would be when speaking about the lack of non-white executives in the tech industry.
The "white male capitalist way"? Your prejudicial bias is showing. Try the capitalist way. Do you really think for a moment that there would be any significant change in the engine that drives capitalism if more minorities were in executive positions? Please, it would be more of the same. Capitalist greed knows no race, color or gender.
By the way, does Jesse Jackson know that you are speaking on his behalf, explaining and interpreting his thoughts and intentions with such conviction? Do you know the exact intent of everything Jesse Jackson says, or is it merely your interpretation?
And so should we do the same with companies that have very few white men in the ranks? I wonder what Oprah Winfrey's executive staff looks like? It's probably mostly women. Must be something fishy going on there. I demand an investigation!
You knocked it out of the park. "TheOtherGeoff's" bias and prejudice are not only blatant but his reasoning is illogical, reading comprehension lacking, and his posts, especially calling seemingly reasonable posters "racist" are laughable. Not sure if he's for real and misguided or just trolling.
Maybe Apple should include a non-white person on their BOD. But, if it is just for appearances, I think it would be a mistake. It should be someone who can reach out and influence other corporations, the disadvantaged and the general public -- and benefit Apple and the world community at large.
My first choice would be Ervin Johnson.
Who'd be your choice?
Not Magic, he is as exploitative as a plantation owner. I would go with Neil deGrasse-Tyson or some black girl in a high school physics class.
Plantation owner? Why do you say that?
I'm a Laker fan and followed Magic's career from the start to today. Except for the HIV thing, he always conducted himself well -- and I wouldn't mind advising my grandkids to pattern themselves after Magic.
Second point: wouldn't a successful male be a better role model and advocate than a high school black girl learning technology?
Not Magic, he is as exploitative as a plantation owner. I would go with Neil deGrasse-Tyson or some black girl in a high school physics class.
I'm a huge fan of NGT because he appears to truly love science but I can't imagine putting him on Apple's BoD simply to create a team of ethnic diversity without any consideration for who is best suited for the position. And I don't think NGT would agree your position here because it's about giving up objectivity and fairness to favour of coddling insecurities and hubris. He's talked about something very similar many, many times in how pure science works.
Your comments read to me that you believe that since life is unfair to you in some ways that you want to counter it with your own set of opposing unfairness. I don't see how that helps the longevity of society. If a woman get a job because of some decree of Feminine Action does that help women as a whole? How does that help humanity or society as a whole? How does one know if the person got the job because of their aptitude instead of some superficial appearance to meet some bigoted (although possibly with a good intention) status quo.
Your comments read to me that you believe that since life is unfair to you in some ways that you want to counter it with your own set of opposing unfairness. I don't see how that helps the longevity of society. If a woman get a job because of some decree of Feminine Action does that help women as a whole? How does that help humanity or society as a whole? How does one know if the person got the job because of their aptitude instead of some superficial appearance to meet some bigoted (although possibly with a good intention) status quo.
Human history is rife with unfairness fighting unfairness. It all depends on which side you're on.
Human history is rife with unfairness fighting unfairness. It all depends on which side you're on.
It is ripe but how is that working out for us? I agree with the old adage that two wrongs don't make a right. How do we get past bigotry in society if we inadvertently spawn more bigots by treating someone as though they are superior in some way because of a superficial, physical characteristic that is nothing more than a nature variation within the same species?
It is ripe but how is that working out for us? I agree with the old adage that two wrongs don't make a right. How do we get past bigotry in society if we inadvertently spawn more bigots by treating someone as though they are superior in some way because of a superficial, physical characteristic that is nothing more than a nature variation within the same species?
In some cases it's worked out wonderfully. Again it all depends on what side you're on. Even the best of rights is wrong in somebody's eyes. Freeing the slaves was the right thing to do, but the southerners sure didn't think so.
Comments
Doesn't make you racist. Just an ignorant buffoon.
So it's ignorant to want the best people for the job over an artificially chosen group based on visual diversity?
I went to Drupal meetup meeting a couple of years ago. This is a very high tech group. It was a free invitation open to ANYONE. Of the 40 or so people who showed up, their were a couple Middle Eastern's (probably Indian) 2 or 3 women and the rest were white males. Not one African American. I know this is a microscopic sample, but I believe if you polled most people in the tech field to find out how many black people were in their technology circle, you'd find very few. The best programmers / designers I know learned code and design on their own time because they loved doing it. It often has little to do with formal education so that's not an excuse either. So what's the reason? It's my belief that few blacks go into technology because the interest level isn't there. Not because they can't and certainly not because they are being kept out by racial conspiracy.
Yours are mostly good points.
I believe that most Americans want to resolve this, but are so involved in our everyday lives that we hire the governments/politicians to do this for us. This has not worked -- at least not fast enough. We don't need any more Cabrini-Greens.
What would you do?
I am white upper-middle class -- what would you have me do?
The very least thing you can do is recognize when you are displaying Afrophobia, also known as 'Anti-Black' bias. Hopefully by recognizing when you do it, it will make you more sensitive to when it happens. If you want to do more, go and volunteer at a predominately black school, tout the benefits of learning math and begin able to read well. The counter of anti-black bias is implicit trust in what authoritative white males say. Or, and I could totally understand not wanting to be around other people's children, mentor someone where you work. And if there is no one there to mentor, then find someone who is worthy. By mentor, I am not saying give someone the civics lesson of American government (this is a metaphor), but give them the low down, tell them how the game is really played and encourage them to get what they need to get in it. Treat them like they are as capable, but maybe not as knowledgeable, as you are. And be strait with them about it. Call them on their B.S. and encourage them when they get a legit win. Be a friend.
So Jesse is happy with a token? Microsoft's and Adobe's CEOs aren't exactly "Caucasian", right. It would be wrong to not offer an opportunity to anyone based on race, but you can't demand inclusion if there without relevant contribution. It also assumes any race based appointment would have a race based agenda.
Anyway, look to the POTUS and Cosmos 2014 presenter. Just fabulous.
If the pay is good, being a token ain't bad!
OK!
Maybe approach this from another angle ...
Maybe Apple should include a non-white person on their BOD. But, if it is just for appearances, I think it would be a mistake. It should be someone who can reach out and influence other corporations, the disadvantaged and the general public -- and benefit Apple and the world community at large.
My first choice would be Ervin Johnson.
Who'd be your choice?
Not Magic, he is as exploitative as a plantation owner. I would go with Neil deGrasse-Tyson or some black girl in a high school physics class.
Not every athlete is a great player. There are many blacks that know the game just as well as whites but they aren't getting opportunities.
Because a few school systems are failing and something needs to change. Whatever they did previously isn't working.
As Chinese, I can say that we are generally too small to play professional sports. Besides our parents push us to learn musical instruments and become a professional.
I say hire the best people for the job whatever their color, age, sex etc.
I have a dream that one day people will be hired not for the color of their skin....
Yes, but how does one evaluate who is best for the job? Many employers, HR people and supervisors hire people not only on the basis of a resume and experience, but who they feel "comfortable" with - who they can relate to, even if they do that on a subconscious level.
And even though they might not think of themselves as the least bit racist, sexist or ageist, who they feel most comfortable with might be someone just like themselves. And so the discrimination becomes self-reinforcing. This is how minorities, women and older people are frequently excluded from consideration at tech (and other types of) firms. People think, "Is this someone I want to have a beer with...is this someone I want to be working around every day."
Having said that, making up for this at the corporate level is a bit late in the process. Equality and diversity needs to take place at the college level so that minorities and women are taking the appropriate courses and majors in the first place. And that means getting them interested in tech careers at the high school level. So if Jackson is really serious about this, he'd be doing something about the lack of technical training at public high schools, especially those that have large percentages of minority students, which is I'm sure his major concern.
At Boardroom level, it's another story. Those frequently are "old-boys clubs" and more should be done at most companies to insure diversity.
Guess you didn’t read the post before replying.
Play soccer. Most of the professional players are under 6',
Isn't that setting the bar too low?
Rather than a black member of the white good old boys club, wouldn't you rather have a role model and advocate for the black youth?
Mmm... Let me ponder this for a while, there are some of your suggestions I cannot do but I do want to do something!
Agreed. And people should not automatically assume injustice and present their biased perceptions as factual evidence.
The point is that there are an extremely disproportionate number of non-whites athletes in the NFL and NBA, so using Jesse Jackson's logic, we must automatically assume that there is some kind of racial bias against white men in the NFL and NBA. Unless you want to make the augment that everyone is getting a fair shake and white men are simply inferior when it comes to certain occupations like professional football and basketball, which would be a somewhat biased opinion, wouldn't you think?
This qoute from his letter certainly sounds like he's talking about head count, "Rainbow PUSH is seeking meetings with tech leaders to address these ZEROES head on." And it's a little presumptuous to automatically assume that a biased selection and/or development process is in place. Unless Jesse Jackson has some specific information that points to it, it is completely comjecture on his part and somewhat irresponsible. Again, if he is implying that there are just as many non-white men and women who are qualified for these jobs but were denied due to biases, we can make the same argument for the lack of white men in the NFL and NBA. Unless you believe that white men just aren't as good at playing football or basketball, which would be a somewhat biased viewpoint in the same way that it would be when speaking about the lack of non-white executives in the tech industry.
The "white male capitalist way"? Your prejudicial bias is showing. Try the capitalist way. Do you really think for a moment that there would be any significant change in the engine that drives capitalism if more minorities were in executive positions? Please, it would be more of the same. Capitalist greed knows no race, color or gender.
By the way, does Jesse Jackson know that you are speaking on his behalf, explaining and interpreting his thoughts and intentions with such conviction? Do you know the exact intent of everything Jesse Jackson says, or is it merely your interpretation?
And so should we do the same with companies that have very few white men in the ranks? I wonder what Oprah Winfrey's executive staff looks like? It's probably mostly women. Must be something fishy going on there. I demand an investigation!
You knocked it out of the park. "TheOtherGeoff's" bias and prejudice are not only blatant but his reasoning is illogical, reading comprehension lacking, and his posts, especially calling seemingly reasonable posters "racist" are laughable. Not sure if he's for real and misguided or just trolling.
Plantation owner? Why do you say that?
I'm a Laker fan and followed Magic's career from the start to today. Except for the HIV thing, he always conducted himself well -- and I wouldn't mind advising my grandkids to pattern themselves after Magic.
Second point: wouldn't a successful male be a better role model and advocate than a high school black girl learning technology?
I'm a huge fan of NGT because he appears to truly love science but I can't imagine putting him on Apple's BoD simply to create a team of ethnic diversity without any consideration for who is best suited for the position. And I don't think NGT would agree your position here because it's about giving up objectivity and fairness to favour of coddling insecurities and hubris. He's talked about something very similar many, many times in how pure science works.
Your comments read to me that you believe that since life is unfair to you in some ways that you want to counter it with your own set of opposing unfairness. I don't see how that helps the longevity of society. If a woman get a job because of some decree of Feminine Action does that help women as a whole? How does that help humanity or society as a whole? How does one know if the person got the job because of their aptitude instead of some superficial appearance to meet some bigoted (although possibly with a good intention) status quo.
Human history is rife with unfairness fighting unfairness. It all depends on which side you're on.
It is ripe but how is that working out for us? I agree with the old adage that two wrongs don't make a right. How do we get past bigotry in society if we inadvertently spawn more bigots by treating someone as though they are superior in some way because of a superficial, physical characteristic that is nothing more than a nature variation within the same species?
In some cases it's worked out wonderfully. Again it all depends on what side you're on. Even the best of rights is wrong in somebody's eyes. Freeing the slaves was the right thing to do, but the southerners sure didn't think so.