Indeed. I was paraphrasing Jobs. As you said, Jobs stated that constantly lifting your arm to a touchscreen on a laptop would give you gorilla arm. Ie, it's not ergonomic.
Glad to see you remember it too. I was beginning to wonder if it was not a figment.
Now I may be wrong, but I clearly remember Steve Jobs talking about touchscreen for laptops and saying it just was not possible, because you ended up with a sour ankle and arm at the end of the day.
Let's assume he did say that. Now:
1. Just because he said it doesn't mean he's right. He was wrong from time to time.
3. Steve was, first and foremost, Head Salesman for Apple. His comments about features and products Apple didn't offer have to be viewed with at least a modicum of skepticism, because someone with a vested interest in your choice will obviously not present a positive view of a feature absent from the product he's trying to sell you. Steve HAD to do that. It was his job. I'm sure that sometimes he really meant what he said when he spoke out against a feature or product. I'm equally sure that sometimes it was just good salesmanship.
3. Steve was known to change his mind even on matters about which he felt strongly. Ed Catmull of Pixar describes a few examples in his book, "Creativity, Inc."
I think it's safe to say that "Steve said" is not grounds for drawing an absolute conclusion.
With that out of the way, I'm not suggesting that a touch-screen on a laptop is something one would have to use all day, every day. It would be just another form of input available to the user, that can be used or not depending on the circumstances at the moment. Like the touchpad. I use a mouse, so sometimes I go hours without even touching the touchpad. Then sometimes my hand lands there and I unconsciously split cursor control and scrolling between the touchpad and the mouse. So it would be with a touchscreen. Use it when it feel natural, don't when it doesn't.
Sometimes I'm pointing at an image on the screen, and it would be handy to just "flick" to the next image, or pinch to zoom. Sometimes I want to push one fader up at the same time as I'm pulling another one down. There's no way to do that with a mouse or touchpad, but I could on a touchscreen.
It wouldn't have to be my sole or even primary way of interacting with the machine, it would just be ANOTHER way, along with the touchpad and keyboard and a mouse and whatever other input devices one may use, for the Mac to be simple and intuitive to use.
Semantics? Really? That's the best you can come up with?
It's an important distinction. The 7" tablets that were around at the time were cramped as you can see here:
[VIDEO]
The people who said they'd never make an iPad mini were meaning they'd never make an unreasonably small iPad like what was available at the time and they haven't. Samsung ended up making an 8" tablet.
Tell Tim Cook that. I believe his definition of "laughable" will mean "Laughing 'til I pee myself over how much money we're making!" You may prefer another size, but calling it laughable not only flies in the face of the evidence, but is insulting to those who like it. I don't understand why people who would never even imagine insulting another person for something like their favourite colour think nothing of belittling others for their technology preferences.
If someone drives a bright pink car or wears a crazy hat, it's their choice but it's natural to laugh at the choice. No matter what people's tolerance levels are, something will overstep it. It may be insulting to them but they can prove everyone wrong by not looking ridiculous while holding up a tablet to their ear or just go by strength in numbers. There are indicators that the phablet fans may win with numbers and that's fine. I personally don't think the popularity will sustain itself, I reckon it's a temporary phad but we'll see.
"NFC is still only a small percentage of mobile payment. As Gartner (June 2013) points out only 2 percent of total mobile transaction value in 2013 and 5 percent of the total transaction value in 2017 will be via NFC.
The other 98 percent of global mobile payments are made via SMS, USSD (Unstructured Supplementary Service Data), mobile Web and mobile apps."
This will improve with Apple's adoption of it, maybe even to the extent one could say 'Apple invented NFC' and I recommend everyone says that just to annoy people.
"NFC is still only a small percentage of mobile payment. As Gartner (June 2013) points out only 2 percent of total mobile transaction value in 2013 and 5 percent of the total transaction value in 2017 will be via NFC.
The other 98 percent of global mobile payments are made via SMS, USSD (Unstructured Supplementary Service Data), mobile Web and mobile apps."
That's MOBILE, as in "via devices." Based on what I've read here, it looks like NFC payments with cards is already common in Europe, Canada, Japan, Australia and the UK. Since Apple Pay uses the same infrastructure as the card-based system, the routes to its adoption are already well paved in those areas.
I don't know about China because we haven't heard anything on the subject from people who live there. I wonder if it counts as a "special case" because its social construct, economy and culture is so different compared to Western countries. I don't know if/how adoption there, or resistance to it, would affect the rest of the world.
I also don't know about Russia, African nations, India, South American countries or the Middle East, but, with the possible exception of Brazil, I don't think they represent a very big chunk of Apple's market (though I'm just guessing there, I could be wrong).
That just leaves the USA as a major market for Apple products that isn't yet poised to let users to take advantage of that one, particular feature of the new iPhones and ?Watch. That's obviously not any kind of shortcoming or problem, though. I mention it only to illustrate why forum members in the USA might not be as familiar and comfortable with the concept as those in other parts of the world.
Based on what I've read here, it looks like NFC payments with cards is already common in Europe, Canada, Japan, Australia and the UK. Since Apple Pay uses the same infrastructure as the card-based system, the routes to its adoption are already well paved in those areas.
so some people may be confused about the prevalence of them for payments. RFID cards are used in hotels and things for unlocking doors and could serve as an id for charging your bill. It is used in transport and the following site says the UK has 23 million contactless cards (might not all use NFC) out of ~65m people:
Very few are being used though. Banks issue cards with the functionality and people don't even know they have it or how to use it. The wrist band that's shown there for going through the train terminal gate looks useful as you don't have to take out a wallet. The most common use seems to be in transport as it means no getting out the correct amount of coins for a bus or train ticket so it doesn't hold up the queue. Some of those cards are prepay too so they aren't using a payment network during the card swipe process.
Android users like to say NFC was huge because it makes it look like Apple was late to the party but people resorted to calling it nobody f*ing cares because of how underused it is. Not many people are shameless enough to haul out their ridiculous phablet at a train station gate and run it over the NFC reader and that won't change. For one thing, people don't like to advertise they have a $600+ phone in their pocket when taking public transport - the iWatch is worse because it means you have an expensive watch and an expensive phone on you. With a rubber wristband, you could be any old hobo.
The infrastructure is there, which I think is the main point you're making, so Apple won't have an uphill battle. It's just an underused infrastructure so far. This is one thing Paypal could take advantage of. They started issuing Mastercard-compatible cards in the UK that charge the balance of the Paypal account directly. If they bring out either a wristband (not bright blue, just plain black) or contactless card that can not only be used online but at terminals and not limited to any particular country, that would be good. I'd use that before I used a phone, card or watch.
Now I may be wrong, but I clearly remember Steve Jobs talking about touchscreen for laptops and saying it just was not possible, because you ended up with a sour ankle and arm at the end of the day.
He gave an indication that they had no plans for one at that time. The gorilla arm thing argument is nonsense, because no one would design a machine where the primary means of interaction is to reach out like that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slurpy
Actually, I think that would be pretty cool. Maybe not all the colors, but a revamped polycarbonate lower end macbook.
Quote:
Originally Posted by SolipsismX
I concur.
I don't mind that idea at all, and I'm curious if they've learned anything from the 5C. The older white macbooks (and the ibooks before them) had the tendency to crack on whatever top panel is along the keyboard area. I don't mean long cracks through the entire thing. The plastic would become brittle and crack along seams. The Airs hold up significantly better in that regard. I hope they don't revert without remedying that issue.
The infrastructure is there, which I think is the main point you're making, so Apple won't have an uphill battle.
Yes. Thank you. That encapsulates the point I was trying to convey quite nicely.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marvin
It's just an underused infrastructure so far.
I'll take your word for it, but my strictly observational, anecdotal experience makes me wonder if the data gathering might be more than a little behind present actual use of touch payment systems. Entering an account and PIN at the checkout is quickly becoming the equivalent of what writing a cheque used to be! At least in around and Vancouver, anyway.
The regional transit system that serves Vancouver is trying to implement an RFID payment system like the one in London (the difference being London has succeeded while we're two years behind schedule with no implementation date in sight). I usually have my phone in my hand when standing on a train platform or waiting for a shuttle bus -- either reading or watching video -- so I'd actually prefer to do away with having to manage an additional device (card, wristband, whatever) and just tap in and out with my phone.
If I could also traverse the Get Smart-esque access control system at work with it I'd be even happier! In fact, that feature alone might be enough to pry the price of an ?Watch out of me, a device for which I otherwise see no purpose in my particular life.
RFID payment systems for public transits, specifically trains is just fantastic. I thought London now uses a similar system to what we have here in Switzerland. We have a SBB transit app installed on our phones, when the conductor comes along he just scans the barcode that the app displays.
RFID payment systems for public transits, specifically trains is just fantastic. I thought London now uses a similar system to what we have here in Switzerland. We have a SBB transit app installed on our phones, when the conductor comes along he just scans the barcode that the app displays.
The system they're planning here is a card that the user preloads with credits either via a service centre or online. You tap in when you board the system and tap out when you exit. The system deducts the cost of the trip from the card.
They're having trouble getting it to work, though. The card readers are slow and unreliable. Beta testers are reporting that the time it takes to get the reader to respond would cause huge bottlenecks once every single rider has to tap in and out. The readers are also frequently failing to register taps out, resulting in testers being charged the maximum fare for what should have been less expensive trips.
I wonder if the operating system has anything to do with it? Apparently the terminals run on some mobile variant of Windows.
Glad to see you remember it too. I was beginning to wonder if it was not a figment.
With the current generation of laptops Touch screes would be poor ergonomics. That doesn't mean that there aren't uses cases where a touch screen on a laptop might excel or that innovative design might address some issues. In general though touch screens are terrible input devices for the way laptops are used.
With the current generation of laptops Touch screes would be poor ergonomics. That doesn't mean that there aren't uses cases where a touch screen on a laptop might excel or that innovative design might address some issues. In general though touch screens are terrible input devices for the way laptops are used.
Let alone the fingerprints on the screen that look horrible. I am constantly scuffling with my children to prevent them pressing their dirty fingers daubed with jam or chocolate or butter on the screen of my MacBook Air, I don't want to figure out the disaster it would be if they had to.
With the current generation of laptops Touch screes would be poor ergonomics. That doesn't mean that there aren't uses cases where a touch screen on a laptop might excel or that innovative design might address some issues. In general though touch screens are terrible input devices for the way laptops are used.
Let alone the fingerprints on the screen that look horrible. I am constantly scuffling with my children to prevent them pressing their dirty fingers daubed with jam or chocolate or butter on the screen of my MacBook Air, I don't want to figure out the disaster it would be if they had to.
Put the fear of God into them, and you will have no more child-sized prints on your Air.
Put the fear of God into them, and you will have no more child-sized prints on your Air.
When my children were younger I found by taking my husbands cigar cutter and then slicing the tip off of a carrot as a demonstration as to what would happen to their fingers if anyone of the little bastards touched my MacBook Air was an effective deterrent. Use the term little bastards very liberally when explaining the consequence to really punch the whole idea home.
Comments
Indeed. I was paraphrasing Jobs. As you said, Jobs stated that constantly lifting your arm to a touchscreen on a laptop would give you gorilla arm. Ie, it's not ergonomic.
Glad to see you remember it too. I was beginning to wonder if it was not a figment.
Now I may be wrong, but I clearly remember Steve Jobs talking about touchscreen for laptops and saying it just was not possible, because you ended up with a sour ankle and arm at the end of the day.
Let's assume he did say that. Now:
1. Just because he said it doesn't mean he's right. He was wrong from time to time.
3. Steve was, first and foremost, Head Salesman for Apple. His comments about features and products Apple didn't offer have to be viewed with at least a modicum of skepticism, because someone with a vested interest in your choice will obviously not present a positive view of a feature absent from the product he's trying to sell you. Steve HAD to do that. It was his job. I'm sure that sometimes he really meant what he said when he spoke out against a feature or product. I'm equally sure that sometimes it was just good salesmanship.
3. Steve was known to change his mind even on matters about which he felt strongly. Ed Catmull of Pixar describes a few examples in his book, "Creativity, Inc."
I think it's safe to say that "Steve said" is not grounds for drawing an absolute conclusion.
With that out of the way, I'm not suggesting that a touch-screen on a laptop is something one would have to use all day, every day. It would be just another form of input available to the user, that can be used or not depending on the circumstances at the moment. Like the touchpad. I use a mouse, so sometimes I go hours without even touching the touchpad. Then sometimes my hand lands there and I unconsciously split cursor control and scrolling between the touchpad and the mouse. So it would be with a touchscreen. Use it when it feel natural, don't when it doesn't.
Sometimes I'm pointing at an image on the screen, and it would be handy to just "flick" to the next image, or pinch to zoom. Sometimes I want to push one fader up at the same time as I'm pulling another one down. There's no way to do that with a mouse or touchpad, but I could on a touchscreen.
It wouldn't have to be my sole or even primary way of interacting with the machine, it would just be ANOTHER way, along with the touchpad and keyboard and a mouse and whatever other input devices one may use, for the Mac to be simple and intuitive to use.
Why should one buy this 12-inch MacBook Air?
Because you don't want a 13" MBP or larger.
It's an important distinction. The 7" tablets that were around at the time were cramped as you can see here:
[VIDEO]
The people who said they'd never make an iPad mini were meaning they'd never make an unreasonably small iPad like what was available at the time and they haven't. Samsung ended up making an 8" tablet.
If someone drives a bright pink car or wears a crazy hat, it's their choice but it's natural to laugh at the choice. No matter what people's tolerance levels are, something will overstep it. It may be insulting to them but they can prove everyone wrong by not looking ridiculous while holding up a tablet to their ear or just go by strength in numbers. There are indicators that the phablet fans may win with numbers and that's fine. I personally don't think the popularity will sustain itself, I reckon it's a temporary phad but we'll see.
It's not widely used anywhere:
http://mobithinking.com/mobile-marketing-tools/latest-mobile-stats/f#nfcdevices
http://www.gartner.com/newsroom/id/2504915
"NFC is still only a small percentage of mobile payment. As Gartner (June 2013) points out only 2 percent of total mobile transaction value in 2013 and 5 percent of the total transaction value in 2017 will be via NFC.
The other 98 percent of global mobile payments are made via SMS, USSD (Unstructured Supplementary Service Data), mobile Web and mobile apps."
This will improve with Apple's adoption of it, maybe even to the extent one could say 'Apple invented NFC' and I recommend everyone says that just to annoy people.
It's not widely used anywhere:
http://mobithinking.com/mobile-marketing-tools/latest-mobile-stats/f#nfcdevices
http://www.gartner.com/newsroom/id/2504915
"NFC is still only a small percentage of mobile payment. As Gartner (June 2013) points out only 2 percent of total mobile transaction value in 2013 and 5 percent of the total transaction value in 2017 will be via NFC.
The other 98 percent of global mobile payments are made via SMS, USSD (Unstructured Supplementary Service Data), mobile Web and mobile apps."
That's MOBILE, as in "via devices." Based on what I've read here, it looks like NFC payments with cards is already common in Europe, Canada, Japan, Australia and the UK. Since Apple Pay uses the same infrastructure as the card-based system, the routes to its adoption are already well paved in those areas.
I don't know about China because we haven't heard anything on the subject from people who live there. I wonder if it counts as a "special case" because its social construct, economy and culture is so different compared to Western countries. I don't know if/how adoption there, or resistance to it, would affect the rest of the world.
I also don't know about Russia, African nations, India, South American countries or the Middle East, but, with the possible exception of Brazil, I don't think they represent a very big chunk of Apple's market (though I'm just guessing there, I could be wrong).
That just leaves the USA as a major market for Apple products that isn't yet poised to let users to take advantage of that one, particular feature of the new iPhones and ?Watch. That's obviously not any kind of shortcoming or problem, though. I mention it only to illustrate why forum members in the USA might not be as familiar and comfortable with the concept as those in other parts of the world.
NFC is a subset of RFID cards:
http://blog.atlasrfidstore.com/rfid-vs-nfc
so some people may be confused about the prevalence of them for payments. RFID cards are used in hotels and things for unlocking doors and could serve as an id for charging your bill. It is used in transport and the following site says the UK has 23 million contactless cards (might not all use NFC) out of ~65m people:
http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-20694027
Very few are being used though. Banks issue cards with the functionality and people don't even know they have it or how to use it. The wrist band that's shown there for going through the train terminal gate looks useful as you don't have to take out a wallet. The most common use seems to be in transport as it means no getting out the correct amount of coins for a bus or train ticket so it doesn't hold up the queue. Some of those cards are prepay too so they aren't using a payment network during the card swipe process.
Android users like to say NFC was huge because it makes it look like Apple was late to the party but people resorted to calling it nobody f*ing cares because of how underused it is. Not many people are shameless enough to haul out their ridiculous phablet at a train station gate and run it over the NFC reader and that won't change. For one thing, people don't like to advertise they have a $600+ phone in their pocket when taking public transport - the iWatch is worse because it means you have an expensive watch and an expensive phone on you. With a rubber wristband, you could be any old hobo.
The infrastructure is there, which I think is the main point you're making, so Apple won't have an uphill battle. It's just an underused infrastructure so far. This is one thing Paypal could take advantage of. They started issuing Mastercard-compatible cards in the UK that charge the balance of the Paypal account directly. If they bring out either a wristband (not bright blue, just plain black) or contactless card that can not only be used online but at terminals and not limited to any particular country, that would be good. I'd use that before I used a phone, card or watch.
Now I may be wrong, but I clearly remember Steve Jobs talking about touchscreen for laptops and saying it just was not possible, because you ended up with a sour ankle and arm at the end of the day.
He gave an indication that they had no plans for one at that time. The gorilla arm thing argument is nonsense, because no one would design a machine where the primary means of interaction is to reach out like that.
Quote:
Actually, I think that would be pretty cool. Maybe not all the colors, but a revamped polycarbonate lower end macbook.
I concur.
I don't mind that idea at all, and I'm curious if they've learned anything from the 5C. The older white macbooks (and the ibooks before them) had the tendency to crack on whatever top panel is along the keyboard area. I don't mean long cracks through the entire thing. The plastic would become brittle and crack along seams. The Airs hold up significantly better in that regard. I hope they don't revert without remedying that issue.
The infrastructure is there, which I think is the main point you're making, so Apple won't have an uphill battle.
Yes. Thank you. That encapsulates the point I was trying to convey quite nicely.
It's just an underused infrastructure so far.
I'll take your word for it, but my strictly observational, anecdotal experience makes me wonder if the data gathering might be more than a little behind present actual use of touch payment systems. Entering an account and PIN at the checkout is quickly becoming the equivalent of what writing a cheque used to be! At least in around and Vancouver, anyway.
The regional transit system that serves Vancouver is trying to implement an RFID payment system like the one in London (the difference being London has succeeded while we're two years behind schedule with no implementation date in sight). I usually have my phone in my hand when standing on a train platform or waiting for a shuttle bus -- either reading or watching video -- so I'd actually prefer to do away with having to manage an additional device (card, wristband, whatever) and just tap in and out with my phone.
If I could also traverse the Get Smart-esque access control system at work with it I'd be even happier! In fact, that feature alone might be enough to pry the price of an ?Watch out of me, a device for which I otherwise see no purpose in my particular life.
RFID payment systems for public transits, specifically trains is just fantastic. I thought London now uses a similar system to what we have here in Switzerland. We have a SBB transit app installed on our phones, when the conductor comes along he just scans the barcode that the app displays.
RFID payment systems for public transits, specifically trains is just fantastic. I thought London now uses a similar system to what we have here in Switzerland. We have a SBB transit app installed on our phones, when the conductor comes along he just scans the barcode that the app displays.
The system they're planning here is a card that the user preloads with credits either via a service centre or online. You tap in when you board the system and tap out when you exit. The system deducts the cost of the trip from the card.
They're having trouble getting it to work, though. The card readers are slow and unreliable. Beta testers are reporting that the time it takes to get the reader to respond would cause huge bottlenecks once every single rider has to tap in and out. The readers are also frequently failing to register taps out, resulting in testers being charged the maximum fare for what should have been less expensive trips.
I wonder if the operating system has anything to do with it? Apparently the terminals run on some mobile variant of Windows.
Because you don't want a 13" MBP or larger.
Hi! What MDP stands for?
Hi! What MDP stands for?
Not sure what MDP is, maybe male double penetration, MBP is obviously MacBook Pro.
Not sure what MDP is, maybe male double penetration, MBP is obviously MacBook Pro.
With the current generation of laptops Touch screes would be poor ergonomics. That doesn't mean that there aren't uses cases where a touch screen on a laptop might excel or that innovative design might address some issues. In general though touch screens are terrible input devices for the way laptops are used.
I see the therapy you are on brings out the dirty side.
With the current generation of laptops Touch screes would be poor ergonomics. That doesn't mean that there aren't uses cases where a touch screen on a laptop might excel or that innovative design might address some issues. In general though touch screens are terrible input devices for the way laptops are used.
Let alone the fingerprints on the screen that look horrible. I am constantly scuffling with my children to prevent them pressing their dirty fingers daubed with jam or chocolate or butter on the screen of my MacBook Air, I don't want to figure out the disaster it would be if they had to.
With the current generation of laptops Touch screes would be poor ergonomics. That doesn't mean that there aren't uses cases where a touch screen on a laptop might excel or that innovative design might address some issues. In general though touch screens are terrible input devices for the way laptops are used.
Let alone the fingerprints on the screen that look horrible. I am constantly scuffling with my children to prevent them pressing their dirty fingers daubed with jam or chocolate or butter on the screen of my MacBook Air, I don't want to figure out the disaster it would be if they had to.
Put the fear of God into them, and you will have no more child-sized prints on your Air.
When my children were younger I found by taking my husbands cigar cutter and then slicing the tip off of a carrot as a demonstration as to what would happen to their fingers if anyone of the little bastards touched my MacBook Air was an effective deterrent. Use the term little bastards very liberally when explaining the consequence to really punch the whole idea home.
Don't your children know the word No!