Actually, the expertise often resides within the Tier1 and Tier2 suppliers.
Car OEM are mostly assembling subsystems they buy off their suppliers: I need a break system of that size that does this and that. I need a number unit with xenons lights looking like this and radar sensors integrated fulfilling this protocol. etc.
Actually only a few, e.g. BMW, are still into engineering their own engines.
Often, they even try to not depend on just one supplier by splitting a whole subsystem, e.g. of assistance systems, to different suppliers while the suppliers would love to provide the whole system out of the box, because of the deeper integration this would offer.
I can envision is for Apple to go exactly this route, in a way that makes this turnkey solution much more attractive for car OEMs.
The automotive industry lags behind what connectivity is concerned. They have an onboard voltage level to support and then there is CAN-Bus. Solutions that start to scratch the surface using internet e.g. are not safe, as recent examples have shown where you basically can turn your corvette into an RC toy :-)
Another massive field of research is battery tech.
Now these are fields where Apple already had a lot of expertise prior to hiring all these people from automotive. I could clearly see this team using the available tech and bring it to automotive level (which has much higher requirements).
Also, if it were a plug-and-play system ANY OEM could use it, and therefore you'd sell it to way more customers. A full-blown car would have a much smaller customer base.
And let's not forget the recent statements from Daimler and BMW clearly indicating large interest for cooperation with Apple.
But when Tim Cook supposedly met with BMW the rumors were he toured their production facility because Apple is interested in learning about the carbon fiber body of the i3. According to a report from Reuters:
According to Reuters' source, Apple left the talks without reaching a deal with BMW because the company wants "to explore developing a passenger car on its own."
During the visit, Apple executives asked BMW board members detailed questions about tooling and production and BMW executives signaled readiness to license parts, one of the sources said. News of the Leipzig visit first emerged in Germany's Manager-Magazin last week.
"Apple executives were impressed with the fact that we abandoned traditional approaches to car making and started afresh. It chimed with the way they do things too," a senior BMW source said.
Daimler's statement was pretty vague and mentioned Google too. Why would Apple be asking detailed questions about tooling and car production if they weren't interested in their own car?
I'm I the only one who thinks the Tesla fake grille is really ugly?
Why is it fake? Tesla cars have cooling systems as well, that need radiators to dissipate heat. The most obvious location for any radiators are in the front of the vehicle.
@EricTheHalfBee I agree. I did not see your post before my own.
Well no one really knows 100% but according to this article, it may be related to an Advanced Driver Assistance System that can be used by other auto brands;
But then again, you may be right. Apple could be building an actual car.
Patently Apple is just guessing like everyone else. Most people think there's no possible way Apple could be building a car so it has to be something else. And what seems logical to them is Apple providing some advanced infotainment system for existing car makers.
Sure Apple isn't experienced in building cars but there are very few, if any, instances where Apple (at least Apple 2.0 and greater) provides technology for someone else's product. The Motorla ROKR is all I can think of. I don't count CarPlay as that's basically just projected UI and you have to have an iPhone to use it. So I think we could be just as skeptical about Apple developing technology that they would license to automakers as Apple doing its own vehicle. I think even more skeptical as Apple's MO is usually doing the entire widget and touting the tight integration of hardware, software and services over the competition. One of Apple's recent Titan hires, Megan Mclain's LinkedIn profile says this:
And this is the profile of another Apple a employee, Jim Cuseo, who's also rumored to be on Project Titan. He refers to a growing team he's managing for a future Apple product line.
To me the fact that Apple's industrial designers are involved in this project means it's more than just CarPlay on steroids. And pretty much all the existing Apple employees that have been outed as part of this project are mechanical engineers involved with Apple's hardware. To me all the signs are they're prototyping some sort of electric vehicle.
Rather than a 'hiring war', I percieve an exchange of talent to ensure the vehicle operates as expected.
Apple has always emphasised ease-of-use, and I'm sad that that seems to mean 'total passivity' for the driving experience.
Ease of use is the basis of any great product. In an automobile, it might mean reducing the ancillary "noise" of operation and increasing the seat of the pants driving experience starting with, naturally, a great driver's seat, and plenty of auditory feedback. One does not preclude the other.
Ease of use is the basis of any great product. In an automobile, it might mean reducing the ancillary "noise" of operation and increasing the seat of the pants driving experience starting with, naturally, a great driver's seat, and plenty of auditory feedback. One does not preclude the other.
Yep, I can't imagine Jony Ive compromising the tactlie part of the driving experience either. The feel of the road through the steering wheel, and all that which keeps you engaged with the experience of going down the road. I hope self-driving will be optional, modular in function, even gradual.
Didn't anyone stop to think that there is still a valid reason for a grill (nee, an opening in front)? Large batteries need to be cooled as do motors. Is the possibility of a hybrid out of the question (either the gas powered generator or gas driven powertrain that can supplement the electrics)? There is also a need for a HVAC system which generally uses fresh filtered air passed thru a heat exchanger to get hot or cold air -- I know I don't want to have to rely on 4/80 AC ;) and electric seat warmers and/or strip heaters to warm up (i.e., electric heaters are really inefficient).
I realize that the comments started out about the Tesla but the (vapor) iCar stuck its head up really quick -- IMHO this is still very much a research project that may become a product. Apple will do its due diligence and in 5+ years may release a product. I'd love it!
To repeat, all the cooling air the batteries and the AC need is now coming through the smaller air intakes surrounding the big, yawning opening, which is itself blank to incoming air, since it's completely plugged with one big convex slab of plastic.
What's the explanation for this design curiosity? Behind the plastic non-grill, aside from the sensors mentioned by yoyo2222, is an empty, fabric-lined luggage space. Are you saying they were thinking of putting a gasoline-powered generator in there? The mind reels.
This whole grill business is one of the very few details that makes me question the engineering thoroughness of the Tesla. Otherwise, it seems to be a brilliant car.
yoyo2222 adds the sensor factor above. I did not know that, but could they possibly need that much space? And grilles are stupid, always have been. Porsche proved that with the most sensuous front ends ever on their 356 models.
The 356, Corvair 2nd generation, and Karmann Ghia Type 34. No need for front end cooling for these rear-engined cars, so the designers took that into account. It resulted in beautiful, timeless front end designs, IMO (well, maybe not the Type 34).
Tesla Model S and Chevy Volt have active battery cooling and active electric motor cooling, so they need some type of front end vents (as EricTheHalfBee and others had mentioned before). To me, the Model S has a grill fascia that appears larger than necessary (to look more like a "regular" car?), but other posters said it may be hiding sensors, which makes sense.
Edit: I just saw Flaneur's post #49 about the Model S fake grill. Yes, I find it's design puzzling. My best guess based on your post: to look more like a "regular" car, which I find unnecessary. Tesla, embrace the non-need for a grill, and give the front end a unique look!
The angst and debate over the grill is, with all due respect, silly. Regardless of whether it serves a functional purpose.
Grills are the fundamental distinguishing visual feature of a vehicle. You can (almost always) tell a car maker by the grill. It's like a logo, no more no less. If it was just about ventilation and such, carmakers could and would have made a few air holes and left it at that.
As a matter of aesthetics, I too am not a huge fan of the Tesla grill. Moreover, their logo looks like it's been swiped from the Texas Longhorns.
Yep, I can't imagine Jony Ive compromising the tactlie part of the driving experience either. The feel of the road through the steering wheel, and all that which keeps you engaged with the experience of going down the road. I hope self-driving will be optional, modular in function, even gradual.
Edit: brakken, above, isn't so optimistic I see.
I'm with you. I'm not one bit interested in self driving cars. I want to drive my own car that I can use whenever I want to go wherever I want. To me the automobile is the ultimate symbol of freedom in those trying to get rid of it are just taking that freedom away. I don't want to have to request an Uber driver every time I want to go somewhere.
I just read a Benedict Evans piece that was very bearish on Apple in the car space. He thinks the space will be Google and Uber. I think that's Silicon Valley bias. Not everyone is single and living in a big city. If you live in the suburbs and have a family you're going to have your own vehicle. You're not going to be calling an Uber driver every time you want to go somewhere. And for all those who say cars sit idle 90% of the time...well so what? So so does my washer and dryer and kitchen oven. That doesn't mean they should be replaced with dry cleaners and takeout.
The angst and debate over the grill is, with all due respect, silly. Regardless of whether it serves a functional purpose.
Grills are the fundamental distinguishing visual feature of a vehicle. You can (almost always) tell a car maker by the grill. It's like a logo, no more no less. If it was just about ventilation and such, carmakers could and would have made a few air holes and left it at that.
As a matter of aesthetics, I too am not a huge fan of the Tesla grill. Moreover, their logo looks like it's been swiped from the Texas Longhorns.
If you're referring to me, I have no angst about it, just a level of curiosity that is admittedly higher than yours.
Since many cars today have a significant amount of cooling air entering from below the front bumper, that gives more artistic freedom above the bumper to give the car a more distinguished "face," not unlike rear-engined cars of the past. Tesla falls into this category IMO, which, as you pointed out, only needs minimal front end venting. No angst. Really.
I'm with you. I'm not one bit interested in self driving cars. I want to drive my own car that I can use whenever I want to go wherever I want. To me the automobile is the ultimate symbol of freedom in those trying to get rid of it are just taking that freedom away. I don't want to have to request an Uber driver every time I want to go somewhere.
I just read a Benedict Evans piece that was very bearish on Apple in the car space. He thinks the space will be Google and Uber. I think that's Silicon Valley bias. Not everyone is single and living in a big city. If you live in the suburbs and have a family you're going to have your own vehicle. You're not going to be calling an Uber driver every time you want to go somewhere. And for all those who say cars sit idle 90% of the time...well so what? So so does my washer and dryer and kitchen oven. That doesn't mean they should be replaced with dry cleaners and takeout.
I live in the Eastern Sierra, and trust me, there are hundreds of miles of extremely boring real estate to traverse in a long trip across the Great Basin, but lots of winding roads following the mountain ranges north/south I wouldn't mind an autonomous mode in those cases (freeway, open road), but I wouldn't want to compromise the driving experience for that either. Obviously some companies (Tesla, BMW, Lotus, et al) have more at stake for that than others, and would likely be rewarded with a premium by maintaining that experience. (Biggest threat is wildlife on the roads at night).
You are correct that their is an Urban bias to AV and EV vehicles, but it needn't be. Where I live, I need neither an umbrella or Uber.
I’ve always loved the idea of an Apple Car, but I really want the design to be both revolutionary and practical. Apple’s in a position to do what the car companies are too terrified to do: change up the design concept in a radical(ly better) way.
Still, I want it to be gorgeous in the same way that historical cars have been gorgeous. Something like this, not so much:
I'm with you. I'm not one bit interested in self driving cars. I want to drive my own car that I can use whenever I want to go wherever I want. To me the automobile is the ultimate symbol of freedom in those trying to get rid of it are just taking that freedom away. I don't want to have to request an Uber driver every time I want to go somewhere.
I just read a Benedict Evans piece that was very bearish on Apple in the car space. He thinks the space will be Google and Uber. I think that's Silicon Valley bias. Not everyone is single and living in a big city. If you live in the suburbs and have a family you're going to have your own vehicle. You're not going to be calling an Uber driver every time you want to go somewhere. And for all those who say cars sit idle 90% of the time...well so what? So so does my washer and dryer and kitchen oven. That doesn't mean they should be replaced with dry cleaners and takeout.
While I can see the use for a car in the situations you described, still some deeper changes can be observed. In Germany, maybe more than in most other countries, the car was long time considered a holy cow. Today you'll find that in some big cities like Berlin and Cologne the number of car owners dropped below 50%. Also to younger generations a phone has actually a higher status than a car. So, there are some significant changes happening in certain areas of the world.
But when Tim Cook supposedly met with BMW the rumors were he toured their production facility because Apple is interested in learning about the carbon fiber body of the i3. According to a report from Reuters:
Daimler's statement was pretty vague and mentioned Google too. Why would Apple be asking detailed questions about tooling and car production if they weren't interested in their own car?
When I read the BMW piece first, that was exactly my first thought as well. However, BMW is the first company to manufacture complex structures of CFRP in such volumes leaving even aerospace manufacturers in the dust. They might just be interested in the way BMW transformed an expensive and complex process to mass production level and cost while maintaining quality. Liquid metal comes to mind. There might just have been a general exchange of experience. Also, because the information you can read in the press is coming via via. Maybe it was a side discussion someone picked up.
And again, let's assume they go for a car. They'd need more than a white body and some electronics plus batteries. And you just don't buy a steering system or interior, even an ashtray off the shelf and plug it together. And let's. It forget, OEM make the majority of their cash from aftermarket (servicing) and financing the purchase. And I have a hard time to see how they can get components such as steering systems, aircons, seats whatever down to a price range that would suddenly yield the apple typical margins.
Would be way easier to go with systems at least, first.
Look at comp airs like Magna. They even build cars for other OEMs and engineer core parts of cars. Even they stay away from this.
Regarding Zetsche: he is usually quite conservative with such statements. And while he was also mentioning Google and not being specific for him that was a remarkable sentence which immediately made me think that this statement is based on more knowledge.
When I read the BMW piece first, that was exactly my first thought as well. However, BMW is the first company to manufacture complex structures of CFRP in such volumes leaving even aerospace manufacturers in the dust. They might just be interested in the way BMW transformed an expensive and complex process to mass production level and cost while maintaining quality. Liquid metal comes to mind. There might just have been a general exchange of experience. Also, because the information you can read in the press is coming via via. Maybe it was a side discussion someone picked up.
And again, let's assume they go for a car. They'd need more than a white body and some electronics plus batteries. And you just don't buy a steering system or interior, even an ashtray off the shelf and plug it together. And let's. It forget, OEM make the majority of their cash from aftermarket (servicing) and financing the purchase. And I have a hard time to see how they can get components such as steering systems, aircons, seats whatever down to a price range that would suddenly yield the apple typical margins.
Would be way easier to go with systems at least, first.
Look at comp airs like Magna. They even build cars for other OEMs and engineer core parts of cars. Even they stay away from this.
Regarding Zetsche: he is usually quite conservative with such statements. And while he was also mentioning Google and not being specific for him that was a remarkable sentence which immediately made me think that this statement is based on more knowledge.
I think if Apple gets into this business they will contract out manufacturing for sure. But if you read the New Yorker profile of Jony Ive Apple is still heavily involved in designing manufacturing processes and providing specifications to Foxconn and others.
While I can see the use for a car in the situations you described, still some deeper changes can be observed. In Germany, maybe more than in most other countries, the car was long time considered a holy cow. Today you'll find that in some big cities like Berlin and Cologne the number of car owners dropped below 50%. Also to younger generations a phone has actually a higher status than a car. So, there are some significant changes happening in certain areas of the world.
I guess the bottom line for me is I don't have issues with cars and I don't understand why some are so eager to get rid of them or think their demise is imminent.
If Apple makes a self driving car it will be as good as Siri.
Maybe Apples huge success is finally getting to their head(s).
an apple car would only be as good as a natural language parser? can you explain that strange comparison? because on the surface it doesn't make any fucking sense.
Comments
But when Tim Cook supposedly met with BMW the rumors were he toured their production facility because Apple is interested in learning about the carbon fiber body of the i3. According to a report from Reuters:
http://www.macrumors.com/2015/07/31/apple-bmw-car-talks-could-resume/
Daimler's statement was pretty vague and mentioned Google too. Why would Apple be asking detailed questions about tooling and car production if they weren't interested in their own car?
They're some of the favorite cars I've owned, especially 900S convertible in its time. And I've owned some pretty nice cars.
I'm I the only one who thinks the Tesla fake grille is really ugly?
Why is it fake? Tesla cars have cooling systems as well, that need radiators to dissipate heat. The most obvious location for any radiators are in the front of the vehicle.
@EricTheHalfBee I agree. I did not see your post before my own.
Patently Apple is just guessing like everyone else. Most people think there's no possible way Apple could be building a car so it has to be something else. And what seems logical to them is Apple providing some advanced infotainment system for existing car makers.
Sure Apple isn't experienced in building cars but there are very few, if any, instances where Apple (at least Apple 2.0 and greater) provides technology for someone else's product. The Motorla ROKR is all I can think of. I don't count CarPlay as that's basically just projected UI and you have to have an iPhone to use it. So I think we could be just as skeptical about Apple developing technology that they would license to automakers as Apple doing its own vehicle. I think even more skeptical as Apple's MO is usually doing the entire widget and touting the tight integration of hardware, software and services over the competition. One of Apple's recent Titan hires, Megan Mclain's LinkedIn profile says this:
And this is the profile of another Apple a employee, Jim Cuseo, who's also rumored to be on Project Titan. He refers to a growing team he's managing for a future Apple product line.
To me the fact that Apple's industrial designers are involved in this project means it's more than just CarPlay on steroids. And pretty much all the existing Apple employees that have been outed as part of this project are mechanical engineers involved with Apple's hardware. To me all the signs are they're prototyping some sort of electric vehicle.
Apple has always emphasised ease-of-use, and I'm sad that that seems to mean 'total passivity' for the driving experience.
Rather than a 'hiring war', I percieve an exchange of talent to ensure the vehicle operates as expected.
Apple has always emphasised ease-of-use, and I'm sad that that seems to mean 'total passivity' for the driving experience.
Ease of use is the basis of any great product. In an automobile, it might mean reducing the ancillary "noise" of operation and increasing the seat of the pants driving experience starting with, naturally, a great driver's seat, and plenty of auditory feedback. One does not preclude the other.
Yep, I can't imagine Jony Ive compromising the tactlie part of the driving experience either. The feel of the road through the steering wheel, and all that which keeps you engaged with the experience of going down the road. I hope self-driving will be optional, modular in function, even gradual.
Edit: brakken, above, isn't so optimistic I see.
To repeat, all the cooling air the batteries and the AC need is now coming through the smaller air intakes surrounding the big, yawning opening, which is itself blank to incoming air, since it's completely plugged with one big convex slab of plastic.
What's the explanation for this design curiosity? Behind the plastic non-grill, aside from the sensors mentioned by yoyo2222, is an empty, fabric-lined luggage space. Are you saying they were thinking of putting a gasoline-powered generator in there? The mind reels.
This whole grill business is one of the very few details that makes me question the engineering thoroughness of the Tesla. Otherwise, it seems to be a brilliant car.
yoyo2222 adds the sensor factor above. I did not know that, but could they possibly need that much space? And grilles are stupid, always have been. Porsche proved that with the most sensuous front ends ever on their 356 models.
The 356, Corvair 2nd generation, and Karmann Ghia Type 34. No need for front end cooling for these rear-engined cars, so the designers took that into account. It resulted in beautiful, timeless front end designs, IMO (well, maybe not the Type 34).
Tesla Model S and Chevy Volt have active battery cooling and active electric motor cooling, so they need some type of front end vents (as EricTheHalfBee and others had mentioned before). To me, the Model S has a grill fascia that appears larger than necessary (to look more like a "regular" car?), but other posters said it may be hiding sensors, which makes sense.
Edit: I just saw Flaneur's post #49 about the Model S fake grill. Yes, I find it's design puzzling. My best guess based on your post: to look more like a "regular" car, which I find unnecessary. Tesla, embrace the non-need for a grill, and give the front end a unique look!
Grills are the fundamental distinguishing visual feature of a vehicle. You can (almost always) tell a car maker by the grill. It's like a logo, no more no less. If it was just about ventilation and such, carmakers could and would have made a few air holes and left it at that.
As a matter of aesthetics, I too am not a huge fan of the Tesla grill. Moreover, their logo looks like it's been swiped from the Texas Longhorns.
I'm with you. I'm not one bit interested in self driving cars. I want to drive my own car that I can use whenever I want to go wherever I want. To me the automobile is the ultimate symbol of freedom in those trying to get rid of it are just taking that freedom away. I don't want to have to request an Uber driver every time I want to go somewhere.
I just read a Benedict Evans piece that was very bearish on Apple in the car space. He thinks the space will be Google and Uber. I think that's Silicon Valley bias. Not everyone is single and living in a big city. If you live in the suburbs and have a family you're going to have your own vehicle. You're not going to be calling an Uber driver every time you want to go somewhere. And for all those who say cars sit idle 90% of the time...well so what? So so does my washer and dryer and kitchen oven. That doesn't mean they should be replaced with dry cleaners and takeout.
The angst and debate over the grill is, with all due respect, silly. Regardless of whether it serves a functional purpose.
Grills are the fundamental distinguishing visual feature of a vehicle. You can (almost always) tell a car maker by the grill. It's like a logo, no more no less. If it was just about ventilation and such, carmakers could and would have made a few air holes and left it at that.
As a matter of aesthetics, I too am not a huge fan of the Tesla grill. Moreover, their logo looks like it's been swiped from the Texas Longhorns.
If you're referring to me, I have no angst about it, just a level of curiosity that is admittedly higher than yours.
Since many cars today have a significant amount of cooling air entering from below the front bumper, that gives more artistic freedom above the bumper to give the car a more distinguished "face," not unlike rear-engined cars of the past. Tesla falls into this category IMO, which, as you pointed out, only needs minimal front end venting. No angst. Really.
I'm with you. I'm not one bit interested in self driving cars. I want to drive my own car that I can use whenever I want to go wherever I want. To me the automobile is the ultimate symbol of freedom in those trying to get rid of it are just taking that freedom away. I don't want to have to request an Uber driver every time I want to go somewhere.
I just read a Benedict Evans piece that was very bearish on Apple in the car space. He thinks the space will be Google and Uber. I think that's Silicon Valley bias. Not everyone is single and living in a big city. If you live in the suburbs and have a family you're going to have your own vehicle. You're not going to be calling an Uber driver every time you want to go somewhere. And for all those who say cars sit idle 90% of the time...well so what? So so does my washer and dryer and kitchen oven. That doesn't mean they should be replaced with dry cleaners and takeout.
I live in the Eastern Sierra, and trust me, there are hundreds of miles of extremely boring real estate to traverse in a long trip across the Great Basin, but lots of winding roads following the mountain ranges north/south I wouldn't mind an autonomous mode in those cases (freeway, open road), but I wouldn't want to compromise the driving experience for that either. Obviously some companies (Tesla, BMW, Lotus, et al) have more at stake for that than others, and would likely be rewarded with a premium by maintaining that experience. (Biggest threat is wildlife on the roads at night).
You are correct that their is an Urban bias to AV and EV vehicles, but it needn't be. Where I live, I need neither an umbrella or Uber.
I’ve always loved the idea of an Apple Car, but I really want the design to be both revolutionary and practical. Apple’s in a position to do what the car companies are too terrified to do: change up the design concept in a radical(ly better) way.
Still, I want it to be gorgeous in the same way that historical cars have been gorgeous. Something like this, not so much:
Something like this, however...
Maybe Apples huge success is finally getting to their head(s).
While I can see the use for a car in the situations you described, still some deeper changes can be observed. In Germany, maybe more than in most other countries, the car was long time considered a holy cow. Today you'll find that in some big cities like Berlin and Cologne the number of car owners dropped below 50%. Also to younger generations a phone has actually a higher status than a car. So, there are some significant changes happening in certain areas of the world.
When I read the BMW piece first, that was exactly my first thought as well. However, BMW is the first company to manufacture complex structures of CFRP in such volumes leaving even aerospace manufacturers in the dust. They might just be interested in the way BMW transformed an expensive and complex process to mass production level and cost while maintaining quality. Liquid metal comes to mind. There might just have been a general exchange of experience. Also, because the information you can read in the press is coming via via. Maybe it was a side discussion someone picked up.
And again, let's assume they go for a car. They'd need more than a white body and some electronics plus batteries. And you just don't buy a steering system or interior, even an ashtray off the shelf and plug it together. And let's. It forget, OEM make the majority of their cash from aftermarket (servicing) and financing the purchase. And I have a hard time to see how they can get components such as steering systems, aircons, seats whatever down to a price range that would suddenly yield the apple typical margins.
Would be way easier to go with systems at least, first.
Look at comp airs like Magna. They even build cars for other OEMs and engineer core parts of cars. Even they stay away from this.
Regarding Zetsche: he is usually quite conservative with such statements. And while he was also mentioning Google and not being specific for him that was a remarkable sentence which immediately made me think that this statement is based on more knowledge.
I think if Apple gets into this business they will contract out manufacturing for sure. But if you read the New Yorker profile of Jony Ive Apple is still heavily involved in designing manufacturing processes and providing specifications to Foxconn and others.
I guess the bottom line for me is I don't have issues with cars and I don't understand why some are so eager to get rid of them or think their demise is imminent.
an apple car would only be as good as a natural language parser? can you explain that strange comparison? because on the surface it doesn't make any fucking sense.