Regarding Surface Pro sales, the previous quarters they were growing before this quarter decline. We'll have to wait how the new devices sell during the next quarter. And based in the positives reviews for both, Surface Pro and Surface Book, there is a chance sales will be good.
Ok, put your forecast where your mouth is. How many SPs do you think will be sold in FY2016? How many do you think were sold in FY2015?*
Regarding websites, we have a pretty healthy skepticism of fly-by-night links here on AI. Digitimes and BI are regularly derided here as crap, and rightly so (regardless of whether they're pro- or anti-Apple or whomever; don't even get me started on Microsoft's blogs). One other thing. While Microsoft is among the top handful in cloud services, their YoY growth was only 8%, far less impressive than Amazon's 81%. That may or may not be cause for worry in their fastest growth segment.
[QUOTE name="aduzik" url="/t/189703/microsoft-represents-only-serious-competition-for-apple-hardware-steve-ballmer-says#post_2794985"] The Surface Pro 3 has sold well and the Surface Book has been getting good reviews. (If it weren't so crazy expensive I'd be tempted to give a Surface Book a try). [/quote]
They sold less than 1M SP3s in FY2015. That's is "well" in your mind?
And the second part of your statement is revealing for why Microsoft will never succeed with its user base.
That sounds interesting. Could you elaborate on this thought? Would you say Apple having predominantly a horizontal business model was key to success? I am not sure why MS and Google should be considered mostly vertical, but maybe I am not understanding what you're saying.
I"m saying the Apple has a vertical business model, controlling the OS, hardware, cloud, ecosystem and even having retail sales.
For the most part, Google and MS have never been vertical, but both are shifting their business model to have more control over hardware.
Microsoft is the only company poised to give Apple serious competition in terms of hardware, former Chief Executive Steve Ballmer commented on a Bloomberg TV show Friday morning.
"Microsoft will give them a good run for their money," Ballmer told the hosts of Bloomberg Go. "Nobody else has really tried to compete with them anymore really seriously in hardware...If there's going to be any competition at all for Apple it will come from Microsoft."
Ballmer suggested that only Samsung and Microsoft were going after products like the Mac and the iPad, and that of the two, only Microsoft has the "software and the hardware capability" to do it.
He further argued that while it's not essential for Microsoft to dip into Apple's existing marketshare, it is important to gain a toehold in new categories, using the Surface Book as an example. The Book is Microsoft's first self-designed laptop, which can not only detach its screen for use as a tablet, but is claimed to be twice as fast as a similarly-sized MacBook Pro.
On the prospect of an Apple Car, Ballmer said it's a "much bigger leap to do cars than it is most of the things they've tried," although companies other than Tesla should be able to put intelligent software in vehicles. "Maybe Apple gets there, I don't know," he concluded.
Ballmer also screamed repeatedly; 'Developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers' while stomping around, clapping his hands, and sweating profusely in some kind of apparent coke-induced quasi-psychotic rage...
Who cares what this demented pile of trash thinks? He's right down there with Donald Trump whom, I'll bet, he backs wholeheartedly.
Everything that is WRONG with America right there in those two. This moron's a BILLIONAIRE? Mind-boggling...
I don't see how MS ignored the consumer market, when Windows and Office dominate desktops over OS X and iWorks in both consumer and business use. Plus the Xbox have been doing great.
Yes, MS did awful with tablets and smartphones. But Surface Pro looks like great 2 in 1 devices, and looks like Apple can't build a decent one. Let's see how it develops in the next few years.
I agree with you, the Surface Pro is a desperate action from failing in tablets and smartphones. Same as Apple, who was doing not to good when it came with the iPhone, and looks how they succeed. Sometime companies get lazy when they are in a good position. Based in the latest devices and services from Apple (Macbook, iPad Pro, Apple Music, Apple Watch), they are the one who are getting complacent with little incentive to innovate, while MS in the ropes innovates with the Surface Pro / Surface Book and the whole cloud infrastructure, while trying to fix previous mistakes, like Windows 8, and make better software and devices that are already successful, like MS Office and Xbox.
The OEM model has been successful for many years. The problem, like I posted before, was they got lazy. On the opposite, Apple kept doing great devices. IMO, the failure isn't the OEM model, are the OEM's by them self.
I don't know where you got that. I have and use devices, applications and services from both, Apple and MS, every day. It's easy for me to see where they are good and where they are not so good. I don't have any issues point out bad or good things from any of them.
Everything that you state totally ignores that the PC market is slowing, and that the Surfaces were designed for that market, to compete against the very profitable Mac Book/ Mac Book Pro lines. In this, MS is just trying to keep the PC market from leaking further to mobile. Sure, MS dominates the PC market with its OS and Office, but hardly makes a dent in mobile, which is where the growth is. Surface is not a mobile product.
Apple, on the other hand and quite ignored by you, has been rebuilding its apps for cloud, mobile and desktop, but unlike MS, Apple has determined that these products will not use a homogenized OS, but will use a targeted OS supported by a common development platform. Hence why there is an iOS for mobile (spit between 4:3 format iPad and 16:9 format iPhone), tvOS for AppleTV, Watch OS, and OS X for desktop.
As for the this, and I quote you:
"Same as Apple, who was doing not to good when it came with the iPhone".
Really? The slowing in growth of iPhone prior to iPhone 6 sales has no comparison with the failure of MS Mobile, and yeah, look how sales literally launched when the iPhone 6 arrived and are still ramping.
Your fawning premise that MS is back is based on nothing but the Surface product line being hyped in the press, but until sales numbers arrive, it's just hope on your part. It would be easy for me to state that the iPad Pro will end up being a great seller for Apple, especially as the various professional apps arrive built for it. More to the point, Apple builds the processor that goes into iOS devices, and has a known ability to shape it and its OS to create the best performing mobile products, and likely soon, some products for the desktop.
Again, MS has just doubled down on x86 with the Surface.
As an aside, it would be neat to see Apples take on something like a Chrome Book for around $300. Something like an affordable, simple, non-touch screen iPad in a notebook format running a simple OS like iOS on an ARM processor. Just a thought.
I wouldn't be a customer for either, for several reasons.
That is fair enough. At the moment I am also not in the market for a Chrome Book, or an iOS based ARM notebook without a touch screen that is cheaper than an iPad.
Let's face it the comparison was misleading. As far as the touch screen that's all Intel and Microsoft is forced to push it just like everyone else. People have no need to upgrade PCs that frequently so Intel is desperate to find something that might get people to upgrade.
As far as mainstream computer users go, you're right in that they have no need to upgrade PC's that frequently, if at all, simply because more and more, for these users, the smartphone will be their primary "PC." Chances are if they need more computing capability, tablets such as iPad Air & possibly iPad Pro / rMB will fulfill their needs.
But to its credit, the SB is not going after mainstream users. It's going after the same users the MBP is going after and that is obviously Pro users. But time will tell if it succeeds on that merit.
I've never heard of 'techrepublic.com.' Thefool.com' is not a credible source for finance news.
Fortune, otoh, is. But the article you link to provides no market share information. It says, however: "Microsoft has been betting on its cloud business to offset the declines in its personal computing business, which includes Windows, phones, and the Surface tablet. That business unit took in $9.4 billion in the first quarter, a 17% decline from $11.2 billion in the previous year."
The Surface Pro division had a 17% DECLINE. Do you even read the stuff you link to? Or, when challenged, did you simply search for some facts on the web ex post and cut and paste the links so as to sound knowledgeable?
Try harder the next time.
(One more thing: I will say for the third time what I originally said, which is that Microsoft has a successful cloud business.)
Re-read what you quoted from that Fortune article. The "Surface Pro Division" that you mention did not have a 17% decline. The 17% percent decline refers to Microsofts personal computing business, of which the Surface line is a part. Microsofts personal computing business consists of Windows, phones, the Surface line, and I would assume the Xbox line as well.
Also just because you have not heard of a website like techrepublic does not mean it is not a credible source of information.
Quote:
Originally Posted by anantksundaram
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanVM
I don't know your criteria for a reliable source. The two "not credible" websites mentioned stats from Gartner, someone I don't know is listed in your reliable websites. In that case, do you own research in the websites you prefer. It would be easier.
Regarding the Surface, yes, sales went down. Could it be because customers were expecting the SP4? Looks like MS was expecting it. Here is a line from the earnings report conference call,
"As expected, Surface revenue slowed with the market anticipation of a new Surface Pro device for the holidays."
That would make sense. Based in the reviews, looks like the SP4 is a great device and better than the SP3. Plus MS recently added 5000 partners over 30 countries, and even they had to increase the production.
In addition, they announced the Surface Book, that looks very good for a v1 product. Maybe next quarter things would be better. Still, you don't care because it's a failed product, since there is no "audited numbers", same as Apple Watch, Mac Mini, Mac Pro, Macbook, among other Apple products that have no "audited numbers". I didn't know (considering your criteria) that Apple had some many failures.
BusinessInsider? Digitimes!? A Microsoft blog??! Really? REALLY?
Stop embarrassing yourself, and please go away.
(SP3 sales fell because of anticipation of SP4? Will SP4 sales fall because of anticipation of SP5? SP(N) because of SP(N+1)?)
To be fair @DanVM offered no less than 6 links to websites for you. You outright rejected just about all of them and misquoted/misunderstood the one that you didn't.
At least one or two of those websites are good enough for Apple Insider themselves to use as a source of information.
Maybe you could offer some links or make a cogent argument instead of taking pot shots and telling DanVM to go away.
I actually learned a few things from the links that DanVM provided. I didn't learn anything from your responses. DanVM honestly seems like someone trying to have a reasonable conversation.
At least that is my take on reading the exchange between you two in this thread.
Re-read what you quoted from that Fortune article. The "Surface Pro Division" that you mention did not have a 17% decline. The 17% percent decline refers to Microsofts personal computing business, of which the Surface line is a part. Microsofts personal computing business consists of Windows, phones, the Surface line, and I would assume the Xbox line as well.
"Surafce Pro Division" in my post refers to the 'division in which surface pro is included for segment reporting purposes." That should have been obvious.
The trouble with these drive-by links and is evident when you actually go to the original source, in this case, Microsofts 10Q.
Devices revenue decreased $1.8 billion or 49%, mainly due to lower revenue from phones, driven by the shift in strategy for the phone business, as well as lower Surface revenue. Phones revenue decreased $1.5 billion or 58%, as we sold 5.8 million Lumia phones and 25.5 million other non-Lumia phones in the first quarter of fiscal year 2016, compared with 9.3 million and 42.9 million sold, respectively, in the prior year. Surface revenue decreased $236 million or 26%, primarily driven by the release of Surface Pro 3 in June 2014.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TechLover
Also just because you have not heard of a website like techrepublic does not mean it is not a credible source of information.
To be fair @DanVM offered no less than 6 links to websites for you. You outright rejected just about all of them and misquoted/misunderstood the one that you didn't.
At least one or two of those websites are good enough for Apple Insider themselves to use as a source of information.
I have heard of zdnet, theverge, arstechnica, cnet, gizmodo, wired, tech trends, mashable..... (I could go on) but I've never heard of techrepublic.com. If you have, that's great. If you know of some list where it shows up in, say, the top 10, 15, or 20 web news sites, do share. I am always very happy to learn something new and to revise my opinion.
As the "fool.com", well, the name says it all. I can give you at least a couple of dozen financial news sites you would want to go to before you check on fool.com for your financial news. But you're certainly welcome to.
And, you appear to have missed the post where I said: "Regarding websites, we have a pretty healthy skepticism of fly-by-night links here on AI. Digitimes and BI are regularly derided here as crap, and rightly so (regardless of whether they're pro- or anti-Apple or whomever; don't even get me started on Microsoft's blogs)."
The fact that he provided six (wow, six!) links amounts to nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TechLover
Maybe you could offer some links or make a cogent argument instead of taking pot shots and telling DanVM to go away.
At least that is my take on reading the exchange between you two in this thread.
Do you and the Microsoft guy have a larger point? I case you missed it the first three times I said it (and I'll now say it for the fourth time): "Microsoft has a successful cloud business."
Re-read what you quoted from that Fortune article. The "Surface Pro Division" that you mention did not have a 17% decline. The 17% percent decline refers to Microsofts personal computing business, of which the Surface line is a part. Microsofts personal computing business consists of Windows, phones, the Surface line, and I would assume the Xbox line as well.
Also just because you have not heard of a website like techrepublic does not mean it is not a credible source of information.
To be fair @DanVM offered no less than 6 links to websites for you. You outright rejected just about all of them and misquoted/misunderstood the one that you didn't.
At least one or two of those websites are good enough for Apple Insider themselves to use as a source of information.
Maybe you could offer some links or make a cogent argument instead of taking pot shots and telling DanVM to go away.
I actually learned a few things from the links that DanVM provided. I didn't learn anything from your responses. DanVM honestly seems like someone trying to have a reasonable conversation.
At least that is my take on reading the exchange between you two in this thread.
No, DanVM does not seem like someone trying to have a reasonable conversation, but that's just my subjective take, as it yours.
The release of the Surface Book has recharged the MS faithful, but has it really done anything to MS's strategy for mobile? Likely little, so when DanVM makes his statements about Apple products and lacking innovation, I have to take him with both a grain of NaCl and as an MS acolyte.
Here's a typical DanVM statement:
"But Surface Pro looks like great 2 in 1 devices, and looks like Apple can't build a decent one. Let's see how it develops in the next few years."
Apple isn't trying to build a 2 in 1; they had keyboards for iPad since day one. What DanVM needs to note is that Apple has stated that they will not build a 2 in 1 device. That's a decided difference in how Apple and MS see the tablet market, where Apple has demonstrated tablets exclusively mobile, and MS has demonstrated products mostly as laptop and notebook differentiators, not specifically tablets for mobile users, of which the Surface RT was the sole and failed exception.
It may be that Windows 10 will change that equation, but until consumers start adopting Surface Phone, there isn't any large market for Surface tablets in mobile; there's just a market for notebook and laptop differentiators.
Re-read what you quoted from that Fortune article. The "Surface Pro Division" that you mention did not have a 17% decline. The 17% percent decline refers to Microsofts personal computing business, of which the Surface line is a part. Microsofts personal computing business consists of Windows, phones, the Surface line, and I would assume the Xbox line as well.
"Surafce Pro Division" in my post refers to the 'division in which surface pro is included for segment reporting purposes." That should have been obvious.
The trouble with these drive-by links and is evident when you actually go to the original source, in this case, Microsofts 10Q.
Devices revenue decreased $1.8 billion or 49%, mainly due to lower revenue from phones, driven by the shift in strategy for the phone business, as well as lower Surface revenue. Phones revenue decreased $1.5 billion or 58%, as we sold 5.8 million Lumia phones and 25.5 million other non-Lumia phones in the first quarter of fiscal year 2016, compared with 9.3 million and 42.9 million sold, respectively, in the prior year. Surface revenue decreased $236 million or 26%, primarily driven by the release of Surface Pro 3 in June 2014.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TechLover
Also just because you have not heard of a website like techrepublic does not mean it is not a credible source of information.
To be fair @DanVM offered no less than 6 links to websites for you. You outright rejected just about all of them and misquoted/misunderstood the one that you didn't.
At least one or two of those websites are good enough for Apple Insider themselves to use as a source of information.
I have heard of zdnet, theverge, arstechnica, cnet, gizmodo, wired, tech trends, mashable..... (I could go on) but I've never heard of techrepublic.com. If you have, that's great. If you know of some list where it shows up in, say, the top 10, 15, or 20 web news sites, do share. I am always very happy to learn something new and to revise my opinion.
As the "fool.com", well, the name says it all. I can give you at least a couple of dozen financial news sites you would want to go to before you check on fool.com for your financial news. But you're certainly welcome to.
And, you appear to have missed the post where I said: "Regarding websites, we have a pretty healthy skepticism of fly-by-night links here on AI. Digitimes and BI are regularly derided here as crap, and rightly so (regardless of whether they're pro- or anti-Apple or whomever; don't even get me started on Microsoft's blogs)."
The fact that he provided six (wow, six!) links amounts to nothing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TechLover
Maybe you could offer some links or make a cogent argument instead of taking pot shots and telling DanVM to go away.
At least that is my take on reading the exchange between you two in this thread.
Do you and the Microsoft guy have a larger point? I case you missed it the first three times I said it (and I'll now say it for the fourth time): "Microsoft has a successful cloud business."
So much for your "take."
Now that is is a reasonable response, with some links and good information. Well done.
Also yes, yes we heard you the first three times, Microsoft has a successful cloud business. No one here is disputing that.
Again, thanks for the good response and not telling me to just go away. I appreciate it.
So wait, Surface revenues declined this past quarter? Was that fanboys waiting for new hardware or perhaps Surface isn't as popular as tech sites want us to think? I was just with a friend last week who said they had two Surface's that crapped out on them and now they're using a Chromebook.
So wait, Surface revenues declined this past quarter? Was that fanboys waiting for new hardware or perhaps Surface isn't as popular as tech sites want us to think? I was just with a friend last week who said they had two Surface's that crapped out on them and now they're using a Chromebook.
Was that a 26% YoY decline or Quarter-over-Quarter decline?
it is fanless. It is slimmer than ever. It has a retina display. More people seem to think the keyboard is an improvement than the opposite. It showcases new technologies that will be the de-facto standard across all Apple laptops five years from now, and possibly adopted by any other manufacturers that can afford to in the five years after that.
Also, it moves towards a single port for everything, rather than having twenty-five different connectors for everything. This is annoying at the moment, but it forces things in a Good Direction (remember the original iMac and its USB-only outrage that kickstarted the shift to USB for the whole industry).
The thinness and display are very good. Being fanless is a benefit, but not to a level to sacrifice performance, battery life and quality of the keyboard. They should have work the thermal design in the MBA. Regarding the keyboard, most of reviewers agree with me, it's bad. Some of them say "you have to get used to it". Since when you have get used to something it's good? If that's what's coming in the next 5 years, then we have a problem.
And having a single port of expansion is an awful compromise. At least the original iMac had two USB ports. I hope in the future Apple fix the compromises, since I'm looking to replace my MBA. But right now, the Macbook neither the current MBA are good options.
The thinness and display are very good. Being fanless is a benefit, but not to a level to sacrifice performance, battery life and quality of the keyboard. They should have work the thermal design in the MBA. Regarding the keyboard, most of reviewers agree with me, it's bad. Some of them say "you have to get used to it". Since when you have get used to something it's good? If that's what's coming in the next 5 years, then we have a problem.
And having a single port of expansion is an awful compromise. At least the original iMac had two USB ports. I hope in the future Apple fix the compromises, since I'm looking to replace my MBA. But right now, the Macbook neither the current MBA are good options.
Apple is designs to where the puck will be; and that puck lives in a wireless world; hence the Mac Book will likely never see a second USB port.
I guessing that the MBA is we know it will be deprecated within the next couple of generations as Intel provides increased performance within the same TDP as the MB, and a thinner, lighter 13 inch MBP will replace the MBA for those that want TB 3.
Bottom line is you will never get what you are asking for because it doesn't make sense for Apple to produce it, but I'm guessing that you already know that and just want to rant.
"Regarding the keyboard, most of reviewers agree with me, it's bad. Some of them say "you have to get used to it""
Actually, most of the reviews I have read don't state that it is bad, but do state that the user has to get used to the shorter travel, and some don't like the force touch track pad. That keyboard design is a necessary compromise for thin and light, and obviously, a differentiation with the MBA and MBP; if you don't like it, don't buy it or try it, and take it back within 15 days.
One wonders how well the Surface 4 / Surface Book keyboards work in comparison; those are compromised as well, and a necessary tradeoff.
Ok, put your forecast where your mouth is. How many SPs do you think will be sold in FY2016? How many do you think were sold in FY2015?*
I don't do forecasts. Even the experts fail doing so. I remember when they say Windows Phone will be dominating by today. And would never imaging iPad sales going down so strong in two years.
Quote:
Regarding websites, we have a pretty healthy skepticism of fly-by-night links here on AI. Digitimes and BI are regularly derided here as crap, and rightly so (regardless of whether they're pro- or anti-Apple or whomever; don't even get me started on Microsoft's blogs).
Like I posted before, I posted some information and you are free to go the check it out in your favorite website. The MS blog I posted only announced the expansion of partners and some business who where early adopters of the SP4. Again, do your own research an check if it's true or not.
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One other thing. While Microsoft is among the top handful in cloud services, their YoY growth was only 8%, far less impressive than Amazon's 81%. That may or may not be cause for worry in their fastest growth segment.
The 8% of growth you mentioned is the Microsoft Intelligent Cloud, which includes servers and other services and applications. From that division, Azure by itself had a growth of 135% YoY.
The thinness and display are very good. Being fanless is a benefit, but not to a level to sacrifice performance, battery life and quality of the keyboard. They should have work the thermal design in the MBA. Regarding the keyboard, most of reviewers agree with me, it's bad. Some of them say "you have to get used to it". Since when you have get used to something it's good? If that's what's coming in the next 5 years, then we have a problem.
And having a single port of expansion is an awful compromise. At least the original iMac had two USB ports. I hope in the future Apple fix the compromises, since I'm looking to replace my MBA. But right now, the Macbook neither the current MBA are good options.
Oh, come on!
You sound like you've been around long enough to witness the introduction of the original MacBook Air in 2008.
How is this different? The MacBook Air went on to become the default entry-level machine and Apple's hottest seller ever — albeit three years later. To the point that even YOU are using one.
It is completely obvious to anybody not just looking to rant that the new MacBook does certain things so much more effectively than any other laptop that it will become the de-facto standard by which all other machines are measured. Until then, the current offerings will continue to be gently updated and coast along as "hanging in there".
Also, it's cute that you write that the iMac at least had two USB ports. One was immediately occupied by a floppy drive, the other by a keyboard/mouse, leaving only the single port off the side of the keyboard for a printer. All full. No SCSI, either. People were LIVID. The MacBook has no such issues. The market it's aimed at is wireless; optical drives have been gently yesteryeared for seven years now, even presentations for travelling salesmen are more effectively served by keeping an Apple TV puck in the bag, if not an iPad.
Also, FWIW, for every review criticising the new keyboard, I can find one that raves about it. Steve Kovach writes that it's his favourite thing of all about the MacBook, and that returning to the MacBook Air felt like sitting back at a typewriter by comparison.
Again: Don't confuse your personal preference with the best choice in product design.
Everything that you state totally ignores that the PC market is slowing, and that the Surfaces were designed for that market, to compete against the very profitable Mac Book/ Mac Book Pro lines. In this, MS is just trying to keep the PC market from leaking further to mobile. Sure, MS dominates the PC market with its OS and Office, but hardly makes a dent in mobile, which is where the growth is. Surface is not a mobile product.
I agree with everything you say, but not in the part that Surface is not a mobile product. What is your definition of mobile product? Because from what I have seen, it matches very nice as an excellent mobile product.
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Apple, on the other hand and quite ignored by you, has been rebuilding its apps for cloud, mobile and desktop, but unlike MS, Apple has determined that these products will not use a homogenized OS, but will use a targeted OS supported by a common development platform. Hence why there is an iOS for mobile (spit between 4:3 format iPad and 16:9 format iPhone), tvOS for AppleTV, Watch OS, and OS X for desktop.
Yes, I already know what you mention.
Quote:
As for the this, and I quote you:
"Same as Apple, who was doing not to good when it came with the iPhone".
Really? The slowing in growth of iPhone prior to iPhone 6 sales has no comparison with the failure of MS Mobile, and yeah, look how sales literally launched when the iPhone 6 arrived and are still ramping.
English is not my main language, so maybe I express myself the wrong way. My point was that Apple was not doing too good when the iPhone was released, and now they have a great business. If it wasn't because Apple had nothing to lose, maybe the iPhone may have not existed. Same as MS and the Surface. They were under pressure, and came with a great device.
Quote:
Your fawning premise that MS is back is based on nothing but the Surface product line being hyped in the press, but until sales numbers arrive, it's just hope on your part. It would be easy for me to state that the iPad Pro will end up being a great seller for Apple, especially as the various professional apps arrive built for it.
Yes, we'll see how Surface do in the next months. I hope it succeed since it's a great device. And if the iPad Pro it's a good device, it will succeed.
Quote:
More to the point, Apple builds the processor that goes into iOS devices, and has a known ability to shape it and its OS to create the best performing mobile products, and likely soon, some products for the desktop.
Again, MS has just doubled down on x86 with the Surface.
Same as it ever was.
Based in what you mentioned, what MS has done with the Surface is simply amazing, since, in your opinion, they don't built the processor and don't have the ability to shape their OS. What it's more incredible is how possible for Apple to have so many bugs in iOS since they control everything, from the OS to the hardware.
I don't care if a device is ARM or x86, neither most people. I just want a device that works. iPhone and iPad are great devices, same as Surfaces.
Comments
Ok, put your forecast where your mouth is. How many SPs do you think will be sold in FY2016? How many do you think were sold in FY2015?*
Regarding websites, we have a pretty healthy skepticism of fly-by-night links here on AI. Digitimes and BI are regularly derided here as crap, and rightly so (regardless of whether they're pro- or anti-Apple or whomever; don't even get me started on Microsoft's blogs). One other thing. While Microsoft is among the top handful in cloud services, their YoY growth was only 8%, far less impressive than Amazon's 81%. That may or may not be cause for worry in their fastest growth segment.
(Let me help you with the second question: <1M.)
The Surface Pro 3 has sold well and the Surface Book has been getting good reviews. (If it weren't so crazy expensive I'd be tempted to give a Surface Book a try).
[/quote]
They sold less than 1M SP3s in FY2015. That's is "well" in your mind?
And the second part of your statement is revealing for why Microsoft will never succeed with its user base.
That sounds interesting. Could you elaborate on this thought? Would you say Apple having predominantly a horizontal business model was key to success? I am not sure why MS and Google should be considered mostly vertical, but maybe I am not understanding what you're saying.
I"m saying the Apple has a vertical business model, controlling the OS, hardware, cloud, ecosystem and even having retail sales.
For the most part, Google and MS have never been vertical, but both are shifting their business model to have more control over hardware.
Microsoft is the only company poised to give Apple serious competition in terms of hardware, former Chief Executive Steve Ballmer commented on a Bloomberg TV show Friday morning.
"Microsoft will give them a good run for their money," Ballmer told the hosts of Bloomberg Go. "Nobody else has really tried to compete with them anymore really seriously in hardware...If there's going to be any competition at all for Apple it will come from Microsoft."
Ballmer suggested that only Samsung and Microsoft were going after products like the Mac and the iPad, and that of the two, only Microsoft has the "software and the hardware capability" to do it.
He further argued that while it's not essential for Microsoft to dip into Apple's existing marketshare, it is important to gain a toehold in new categories, using the Surface Book as an example. The Book is Microsoft's first self-designed laptop, which can not only detach its screen for use as a tablet, but is claimed to be twice as fast as a similarly-sized MacBook Pro.
On the prospect of an Apple Car, Ballmer said it's a "much bigger leap to do cars than it is most of the things they've tried," although companies other than Tesla should be able to put intelligent software in vehicles. "Maybe Apple gets there, I don't know," he concluded.
Ballmer also screamed repeatedly; 'Developers, developers, developers, developers, developers, developers' while stomping around, clapping his hands, and sweating profusely in some kind of apparent coke-induced quasi-psychotic rage...
Who cares what this demented pile of trash thinks? He's right down there with Donald Trump whom, I'll bet, he backs wholeheartedly.
Everything that is WRONG with America right there in those two. This moron's a BILLIONAIRE? Mind-boggling...
Cheers,
Cameron
I don't see how MS ignored the consumer market, when Windows and Office dominate desktops over OS X and iWorks in both consumer and business use. Plus the Xbox have been doing great.
Yes, MS did awful with tablets and smartphones. But Surface Pro looks like great 2 in 1 devices, and looks like Apple can't build a decent one. Let's see how it develops in the next few years.
I agree with you, the Surface Pro is a desperate action from failing in tablets and smartphones. Same as Apple, who was doing not to good when it came with the iPhone, and looks how they succeed. Sometime companies get lazy when they are in a good position. Based in the latest devices and services from Apple (Macbook, iPad Pro, Apple Music, Apple Watch), they are the one who are getting complacent with little incentive to innovate, while MS in the ropes innovates with the Surface Pro / Surface Book and the whole cloud infrastructure, while trying to fix previous mistakes, like Windows 8, and make better software and devices that are already successful, like MS Office and Xbox.
The OEM model has been successful for many years. The problem, like I posted before, was they got lazy. On the opposite, Apple kept doing great devices. IMO, the failure isn't the OEM model, are the OEM's by them self.
I don't know where you got that. I have and use devices, applications and services from both, Apple and MS, every day. It's easy for me to see where they are good and where they are not so good. I don't have any issues point out bad or good things from any of them.
Everything that you state totally ignores that the PC market is slowing, and that the Surfaces were designed for that market, to compete against the very profitable Mac Book/ Mac Book Pro lines. In this, MS is just trying to keep the PC market from leaking further to mobile. Sure, MS dominates the PC market with its OS and Office, but hardly makes a dent in mobile, which is where the growth is. Surface is not a mobile product.
Apple, on the other hand and quite ignored by you, has been rebuilding its apps for cloud, mobile and desktop, but unlike MS, Apple has determined that these products will not use a homogenized OS, but will use a targeted OS supported by a common development platform. Hence why there is an iOS for mobile (spit between 4:3 format iPad and 16:9 format iPhone), tvOS for AppleTV, Watch OS, and OS X for desktop.
As for the this, and I quote you:
"Same as Apple, who was doing not to good when it came with the iPhone".
Really? The slowing in growth of iPhone prior to iPhone 6 sales has no comparison with the failure of MS Mobile, and yeah, look how sales literally launched when the iPhone 6 arrived and are still ramping.
Your fawning premise that MS is back is based on nothing but the Surface product line being hyped in the press, but until sales numbers arrive, it's just hope on your part. It would be easy for me to state that the iPad Pro will end up being a great seller for Apple, especially as the various professional apps arrive built for it. More to the point, Apple builds the processor that goes into iOS devices, and has a known ability to shape it and its OS to create the best performing mobile products, and likely soon, some products for the desktop.
Again, MS has just doubled down on x86 with the Surface.
Same as it ever was.
As an aside, it would be neat to see Apples take on something like a Chrome Book for around $300. Something like an affordable, simple, non-touch screen iPad in a notebook format running a simple OS like iOS on an ARM processor. Just a thought.
I wouldn't be a customer for either, for several reasons.
That is fair enough. At the moment I am also not in the market for a Chrome Book, or an iOS based ARM notebook without a touch screen that is cheaper than an iPad.
But plenty of schools are.
Let's face it the comparison was misleading. As far as the touch screen that's all Intel and Microsoft is forced to push it just like everyone else. People have no need to upgrade PCs that frequently so Intel is desperate to find something that might get people to upgrade.
As far as mainstream computer users go, you're right in that they have no need to upgrade PC's that frequently, if at all, simply because more and more, for these users, the smartphone will be their primary "PC." Chances are if they need more computing capability, tablets such as iPad Air & possibly iPad Pro / rMB will fulfill their needs.
But to its credit, the SB is not going after mainstream users. It's going after the same users the MBP is going after and that is obviously Pro users. But time will tell if it succeeds on that merit.
http://www.techrepublic.com/article/microsoft-azure-doubles-its-lead-over-oracle-ibm/
http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2015/10/21/microsoft-corporation-is-catching-up-to-amazoncom.aspx
http://fortune.com/2015/10/22/microsoft-cloud-business/
I've never heard of 'techrepublic.com.' Thefool.com' is not a credible source for finance news.
Fortune, otoh, is. But the article you link to provides no market share information. It says, however: "Microsoft has been betting on its cloud business to offset the declines in its personal computing business, which includes Windows, phones, and the Surface tablet. That business unit took in $9.4 billion in the first quarter, a 17% decline from $11.2 billion in the previous year."
The Surface Pro division had a 17% DECLINE. Do you even read the stuff you link to? Or, when challenged, did you simply search for some facts on the web ex post and cut and paste the links so as to sound knowledgeable?
Try harder the next time.
(One more thing: I will say for the third time what I originally said, which is that Microsoft has a successful cloud business.)
Re-read what you quoted from that Fortune article. The "Surface Pro Division" that you mention did not have a 17% decline. The 17% percent decline refers to Microsofts personal computing business, of which the Surface line is a part. Microsofts personal computing business consists of Windows, phones, the Surface line, and I would assume the Xbox line as well.
Also just because you have not heard of a website like techrepublic does not mean it is not a credible source of information.
I don't know your criteria for a reliable source. The two "not credible" websites mentioned stats from Gartner, someone I don't know is listed in your reliable websites. In that case, do you own research in the websites you prefer. It would be easier.
Regarding the Surface, yes, sales went down. Could it be because customers were expecting the SP4? Looks like MS was expecting it. Here is a line from the earnings report conference call,
"As expected, Surface revenue slowed with the market anticipation of a new Surface Pro device for the holidays."
That would make sense. Based in the reviews, looks like the SP4 is a great device and better than the SP3. Plus MS recently added 5000 partners over 30 countries, and even they had to increase the production.
http://www.businessinsider.com/microsoft-surface-pro-4-popular-with-businesses-2015-10
http://www.digitimes.com/news/a20151019PD201.html
https://blogs.windows.com/devices/2015/10/20/surface-pro-4-is-the-fastest-surface-adopted-in-business-ever/
In addition, they announced the Surface Book, that looks very good for a v1 product. Maybe next quarter things would be better. Still, you don't care because it's a failed product, since there is no "audited numbers", same as Apple Watch, Mac Mini, Mac Pro, Macbook, among other Apple products that have no "audited numbers". I didn't know (considering your criteria) that Apple had some many failures.
BusinessInsider? Digitimes!? A Microsoft blog??! Really? REALLY?
Stop embarrassing yourself, and please go away.
(SP3 sales fell because of anticipation of SP4? Will SP4 sales fall because of anticipation of SP5? SP(N) because of SP(N+1)?
To be fair @DanVM offered no less than 6 links to websites for you. You outright rejected just about all of them and misquoted/misunderstood the one that you didn't.
At least one or two of those websites are good enough for Apple Insider themselves to use as a source of information.
Maybe you could offer some links or make a cogent argument instead of taking pot shots and telling DanVM to go away.
I actually learned a few things from the links that DanVM provided. I didn't learn anything from your responses. DanVM honestly seems like someone trying to have a reasonable conversation.
At least that is my take on reading the exchange between you two in this thread.
Re-read what you quoted from that Fortune article. The "Surface Pro Division" that you mention did not have a 17% decline. The 17% percent decline refers to Microsofts personal computing business, of which the Surface line is a part. Microsofts personal computing business consists of Windows, phones, the Surface line, and I would assume the Xbox line as well.
"Surafce Pro Division" in my post refers to the 'division in which surface pro is included for segment reporting purposes." That should have been obvious.
The trouble with these drive-by links and is evident when you actually go to the original source, in this case, Microsofts 10Q.
The news is far worse than "17%": It turns out that Surface Pro revenue actually declined by 26%. Here's what they actually say (and here's the link that you take to the bank http://www.microsoft.com/Investor/EarningsAndFinancials/Earnings/SegmentResults/P3/FY16/Q1/Performance.aspx):
Devices revenue decreased $1.8 billion or 49%, mainly due to lower revenue from phones, driven by the shift in strategy for the phone business, as well as lower Surface revenue. Phones revenue decreased $1.5 billion or 58%, as we sold 5.8 million Lumia phones and 25.5 million other non-Lumia phones in the first quarter of fiscal year 2016, compared with 9.3 million and 42.9 million sold, respectively, in the prior year. Surface revenue decreased $236 million or 26%, primarily driven by the release of Surface Pro 3 in June 2014.
Quote:
Also just because you have not heard of a website like techrepublic does not mean it is not a credible source of information.
To be fair @DanVM offered no less than 6 links to websites for you. You outright rejected just about all of them and misquoted/misunderstood the one that you didn't.
At least one or two of those websites are good enough for Apple Insider themselves to use as a source of information.
I have heard of zdnet, theverge, arstechnica, cnet, gizmodo, wired, tech trends, mashable..... (I could go on) but I've never heard of techrepublic.com. If you have, that's great. If you know of some list where it shows up in, say, the top 10, 15, or 20 web news sites, do share. I am always very happy to learn something new and to revise my opinion.
As the "fool.com", well, the name says it all. I can give you at least a couple of dozen financial news sites you would want to go to before you check on fool.com for your financial news. But you're certainly welcome to.
And, you appear to have missed the post where I said: "Regarding websites, we have a pretty healthy skepticism of fly-by-night links here on AI. Digitimes and BI are regularly derided here as crap, and rightly so (regardless of whether they're pro- or anti-Apple or whomever; don't even get me started on Microsoft's blogs)."
The fact that he provided six (wow, six!) links amounts to nothing.
Quote:
Maybe you could offer some links or make a cogent argument instead of taking pot shots and telling DanVM to go away.
At least that is my take on reading the exchange between you two in this thread.
Do you and the Microsoft guy have a larger point? I case you missed it the first three times I said it (and I'll now say it for the fourth time): "Microsoft has a successful cloud business."
So much for your "take."
Re-read what you quoted from that Fortune article. The "Surface Pro Division" that you mention did not have a 17% decline. The 17% percent decline refers to Microsofts personal computing business, of which the Surface line is a part. Microsofts personal computing business consists of Windows, phones, the Surface line, and I would assume the Xbox line as well.
Also just because you have not heard of a website like techrepublic does not mean it is not a credible source of information.
To be fair @DanVM offered no less than 6 links to websites for you. You outright rejected just about all of them and misquoted/misunderstood the one that you didn't.
At least one or two of those websites are good enough for Apple Insider themselves to use as a source of information.
Maybe you could offer some links or make a cogent argument instead of taking pot shots and telling DanVM to go away.
I actually learned a few things from the links that DanVM provided. I didn't learn anything from your responses. DanVM honestly seems like someone trying to have a reasonable conversation.
At least that is my take on reading the exchange between you two in this thread.
No, DanVM does not seem like someone trying to have a reasonable conversation, but that's just my subjective take, as it yours.
The release of the Surface Book has recharged the MS faithful, but has it really done anything to MS's strategy for mobile? Likely little, so when DanVM makes his statements about Apple products and lacking innovation, I have to take him with both a grain of NaCl and as an MS acolyte.
Here's a typical DanVM statement:
"But Surface Pro looks like great 2 in 1 devices, and looks like Apple can't build a decent one. Let's see how it develops in the next few years."
Apple isn't trying to build a 2 in 1; they had keyboards for iPad since day one. What DanVM needs to note is that Apple has stated that they will not build a 2 in 1 device. That's a decided difference in how Apple and MS see the tablet market, where Apple has demonstrated tablets exclusively mobile, and MS has demonstrated products mostly as laptop and notebook differentiators, not specifically tablets for mobile users, of which the Surface RT was the sole and failed exception.
It may be that Windows 10 will change that equation, but until consumers start adopting Surface Phone, there isn't any large market for Surface tablets in mobile; there's just a market for notebook and laptop differentiators.
Re-read what you quoted from that Fortune article. The "Surface Pro Division" that you mention did not have a 17% decline. The 17% percent decline refers to Microsofts personal computing business, of which the Surface line is a part. Microsofts personal computing business consists of Windows, phones, the Surface line, and I would assume the Xbox line as well.
"Surafce Pro Division" in my post refers to the 'division in which surface pro is included for segment reporting purposes." That should have been obvious.
The trouble with these drive-by links and is evident when you actually go to the original source, in this case, Microsofts 10Q.
The news is far worse than "17%": It turns out that Surface Pro revenue actually declined by 26%. Here's what they actually say (and here's the link that you take to the bank http://www.microsoft.com/Investor/EarningsAndFinancials/Earnings/SegmentResults/P3/FY16/Q1/Performance.aspx):
Devices revenue decreased $1.8 billion or 49%, mainly due to lower revenue from phones, driven by the shift in strategy for the phone business, as well as lower Surface revenue. Phones revenue decreased $1.5 billion or 58%, as we sold 5.8 million Lumia phones and 25.5 million other non-Lumia phones in the first quarter of fiscal year 2016, compared with 9.3 million and 42.9 million sold, respectively, in the prior year. Surface revenue decreased $236 million or 26%, primarily driven by the release of Surface Pro 3 in June 2014.
Quote:
Also just because you have not heard of a website like techrepublic does not mean it is not a credible source of information.
To be fair @DanVM offered no less than 6 links to websites for you. You outright rejected just about all of them and misquoted/misunderstood the one that you didn't.
At least one or two of those websites are good enough for Apple Insider themselves to use as a source of information.
I have heard of zdnet, theverge, arstechnica, cnet, gizmodo, wired, tech trends, mashable..... (I could go on) but I've never heard of techrepublic.com. If you have, that's great. If you know of some list where it shows up in, say, the top 10, 15, or 20 web news sites, do share. I am always very happy to learn something new and to revise my opinion.
As the "fool.com", well, the name says it all. I can give you at least a couple of dozen financial news sites you would want to go to before you check on fool.com for your financial news. But you're certainly welcome to.
And, you appear to have missed the post where I said: "Regarding websites, we have a pretty healthy skepticism of fly-by-night links here on AI. Digitimes and BI are regularly derided here as crap, and rightly so (regardless of whether they're pro- or anti-Apple or whomever; don't even get me started on Microsoft's blogs)."
The fact that he provided six (wow, six!) links amounts to nothing.
Quote:
Maybe you could offer some links or make a cogent argument instead of taking pot shots and telling DanVM to go away.
At least that is my take on reading the exchange between you two in this thread.
Do you and the Microsoft guy have a larger point? I case you missed it the first three times I said it (and I'll now say it for the fourth time): "Microsoft has a successful cloud business."
So much for your "take."
Now that is is a reasonable response, with some links and good information. Well done.
Also yes, yes we heard you the first three times, Microsoft has a successful cloud business. No one here is disputing that.
Again, thanks for the good response and not telling me to just go away. I appreciate it.
Too Zune!
So wait, Surface revenues declined this past quarter? Was that fanboys waiting for new hardware or perhaps Surface isn't as popular as tech sites want us to think? I was just with a friend last week who said they had two Surface's that crapped out on them and now they're using a Chromebook.
Was that a 26% YoY decline or Quarter-over-Quarter decline?
YOY. I don't think any company quotes QOQ numbers because it's not really an apples to apples comparison.
it is fanless. It is slimmer than ever. It has a retina display. More people seem to think the keyboard is an improvement than the opposite. It showcases new technologies that will be the de-facto standard across all Apple laptops five years from now, and possibly adopted by any other manufacturers that can afford to in the five years after that.
Also, it moves towards a single port for everything, rather than having twenty-five different connectors for everything. This is annoying at the moment, but it forces things in a Good Direction (remember the original iMac and its USB-only outrage that kickstarted the shift to USB for the whole industry).
The thinness and display are very good. Being fanless is a benefit, but not to a level to sacrifice performance, battery life and quality of the keyboard. They should have work the thermal design in the MBA. Regarding the keyboard, most of reviewers agree with me, it's bad. Some of them say "you have to get used to it". Since when you have get used to something it's good? If that's what's coming in the next 5 years, then we have a problem.
And having a single port of expansion is an awful compromise. At least the original iMac had two USB ports. I hope in the future Apple fix the compromises, since I'm looking to replace my MBA. But right now, the Macbook neither the current MBA are good options.
The thinness and display are very good. Being fanless is a benefit, but not to a level to sacrifice performance, battery life and quality of the keyboard. They should have work the thermal design in the MBA. Regarding the keyboard, most of reviewers agree with me, it's bad. Some of them say "you have to get used to it". Since when you have get used to something it's good? If that's what's coming in the next 5 years, then we have a problem.
And having a single port of expansion is an awful compromise. At least the original iMac had two USB ports. I hope in the future Apple fix the compromises, since I'm looking to replace my MBA. But right now, the Macbook neither the current MBA are good options.
Apple is designs to where the puck will be; and that puck lives in a wireless world; hence the Mac Book will likely never see a second USB port.
I guessing that the MBA is we know it will be deprecated within the next couple of generations as Intel provides increased performance within the same TDP as the MB, and a thinner, lighter 13 inch MBP will replace the MBA for those that want TB 3.
Bottom line is you will never get what you are asking for because it doesn't make sense for Apple to produce it, but I'm guessing that you already know that and just want to rant.
"Regarding the keyboard, most of reviewers agree with me, it's bad. Some of them say "you have to get used to it""
Actually, most of the reviews I have read don't state that it is bad, but do state that the user has to get used to the shorter travel, and some don't like the force touch track pad. That keyboard design is a necessary compromise for thin and light, and obviously, a differentiation with the MBA and MBP; if you don't like it, don't buy it or try it, and take it back within 15 days.
One wonders how well the Surface 4 / Surface Book keyboards work in comparison; those are compromised as well, and a necessary tradeoff.
Ok, put your forecast where your mouth is. How many SPs do you think will be sold in FY2016? How many do you think were sold in FY2015?*
I don't do forecasts. Even the experts fail doing so. I remember when they say Windows Phone will be dominating by today. And would never imaging iPad sales going down so strong in two years.
Regarding websites, we have a pretty healthy skepticism of fly-by-night links here on AI. Digitimes and BI are regularly derided here as crap, and rightly so (regardless of whether they're pro- or anti-Apple or whomever; don't even get me started on Microsoft's blogs).
Like I posted before, I posted some information and you are free to go the check it out in your favorite website. The MS blog I posted only announced the expansion of partners and some business who where early adopters of the SP4. Again, do your own research an check if it's true or not.
The 8% of growth you mentioned is the Microsoft Intelligent Cloud, which includes servers and other services and applications. From that division, Azure by itself had a growth of 135% YoY.
http://www.forbes.com/sites/greatspeculations/2015/10/26/microsoft-earnings-cloud-fillips-revenue-even-as-os-sales-decline/
Looks like that. Like I mentioned before, things may change with the new devices, additional partners and countries.
The thinness and display are very good. Being fanless is a benefit, but not to a level to sacrifice performance, battery life and quality of the keyboard. They should have work the thermal design in the MBA. Regarding the keyboard, most of reviewers agree with me, it's bad. Some of them say "you have to get used to it". Since when you have get used to something it's good? If that's what's coming in the next 5 years, then we have a problem.
And having a single port of expansion is an awful compromise. At least the original iMac had two USB ports. I hope in the future Apple fix the compromises, since I'm looking to replace my MBA. But right now, the Macbook neither the current MBA are good options.
Oh, come on!
You sound like you've been around long enough to witness the introduction of the original MacBook Air in 2008.
How is this different? The MacBook Air went on to become the default entry-level machine and Apple's hottest seller ever — albeit three years later. To the point that even YOU are using one.
It is completely obvious to anybody not just looking to rant that the new MacBook does certain things so much more effectively than any other laptop that it will become the de-facto standard by which all other machines are measured. Until then, the current offerings will continue to be gently updated and coast along as "hanging in there".
Also, it's cute that you write that the iMac at least had two USB ports. One was immediately occupied by a floppy drive, the other by a keyboard/mouse, leaving only the single port off the side of the keyboard for a printer. All full. No SCSI, either. People were LIVID. The MacBook has no such issues. The market it's aimed at is wireless; optical drives have been gently yesteryeared for seven years now, even presentations for travelling salesmen are more effectively served by keeping an Apple TV puck in the bag, if not an iPad.
Also, FWIW, for every review criticising the new keyboard, I can find one that raves about it. Steve Kovach writes that it's his favourite thing of all about the MacBook, and that returning to the MacBook Air felt like sitting back at a typewriter by comparison.
Again: Don't confuse your personal preference with the best choice in product design.
Everything that you state totally ignores that the PC market is slowing, and that the Surfaces were designed for that market, to compete against the very profitable Mac Book/ Mac Book Pro lines. In this, MS is just trying to keep the PC market from leaking further to mobile. Sure, MS dominates the PC market with its OS and Office, but hardly makes a dent in mobile, which is where the growth is. Surface is not a mobile product.
I agree with everything you say, but not in the part that Surface is not a mobile product. What is your definition of mobile product? Because from what I have seen, it matches very nice as an excellent mobile product.
Apple, on the other hand and quite ignored by you, has been rebuilding its apps for cloud, mobile and desktop, but unlike MS, Apple has determined that these products will not use a homogenized OS, but will use a targeted OS supported by a common development platform. Hence why there is an iOS for mobile (spit between 4:3 format iPad and 16:9 format iPhone), tvOS for AppleTV, Watch OS, and OS X for desktop.
Yes, I already know what you mention.
As for the this, and I quote you:
"Same as Apple, who was doing not to good when it came with the iPhone".
Really? The slowing in growth of iPhone prior to iPhone 6 sales has no comparison with the failure of MS Mobile, and yeah, look how sales literally launched when the iPhone 6 arrived and are still ramping.
English is not my main language, so maybe I express myself the wrong way. My point was that Apple was not doing too good when the iPhone was released, and now they have a great business. If it wasn't because Apple had nothing to lose, maybe the iPhone may have not existed. Same as MS and the Surface. They were under pressure, and came with a great device.
Your fawning premise that MS is back is based on nothing but the Surface product line being hyped in the press, but until sales numbers arrive, it's just hope on your part. It would be easy for me to state that the iPad Pro will end up being a great seller for Apple, especially as the various professional apps arrive built for it.
Yes, we'll see how Surface do in the next months. I hope it succeed since it's a great device. And if the iPad Pro it's a good device, it will succeed.
Again, MS has just doubled down on x86 with the Surface.
Same as it ever was.
Based in what you mentioned, what MS has done with the Surface is simply amazing, since, in your opinion, they don't built the processor and don't have the ability to shape their OS. What it's more incredible is how possible for Apple to have so many bugs in iOS since they control everything, from the OS to the hardware.
I don't care if a device is ARM or x86, neither most people. I just want a device that works. iPhone and iPad are great devices, same as Surfaces.