Apple resists MacBook, iPad Pro convergence as Microsoft struggles with Surface Windows 10 hybrids

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  • Reply 301 of 399
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by enature View Post

     

    The main reason why Apple will be falling is because their products now starting to take more efforts to use that their competitors. The horrendous iCloud and the lack of touch on Mac OS are just culprits of Cooks inability to lead. Competitors are far from perfect, but they are getting there.

     

    Google's cloud with Gmail & Chrome clearly trashes Apple's cloud. It takes less effort to use the Google cloud system than the Apple cloud system.


     

    I constantly hear from my friend in Singapore (Windows / Developer) how Windows security / update patches scare him because they have often (several times a year) frozen or failed.... So much so that he now keeps a very very simple base Windows system and does all his work under VMWare workstation - Windows .... so if anything fails he can roll back easily.   Other than when hardware failed, I have never ever suffered through a failed upgrade on Mac OS X (one old Mac Mini failed - hard drive; main machine Mac Pro 2008 still going strong).  It is no more "complex" now to use Mac OS X than it was when I made the leap in 2008.  In fact both my older and youngest sisters leaped to Macs a few years ago..... and other than their dislike of iTunes - would never consider going back.... neither of them are really that computer savy.  In fact it is rather rare that I hear anyone jumping back to Windows after coming to Mac OS.  I was probably one of the first to jump to Macs in my office (Windows shop half-world away) but many many more have since joined me on the other side .... we know what we left, we know why we don't want to go back.  

     

    As far as Gmail... it works great with my email client, and I actually prefer using the Mac mail client against the server since I don't have to constantly be logged in to the web which I find annoying (I no longer have to do it now that the upgrade exchange server at work is now working great with Mac Mail -- it did not always).   Google is a cloud oriented company; they are a data mining / advertising company that makes it's living out of you as a product - so I would expect them to be better in the cloud.

  • Reply 302 of 399
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,339member
    melgross wrote: »
    Far more difficult than on a Mac. And you know that.
    Mel, thank you for acknowledging that infecting a Chromebook with malware is more difficult than on on a Mac, which is a point I was making. Your honesty is admirable.
  • Reply 303 of 399
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by bkkcanuck View Post

     

    I constantly hear from my friend in Singapore (Windows / Developer) how Windows security / update patches scare him because they have often (several times a year) frozen or failed.... So much so that he now keeps a very very simple base Windows system and does all his work under VMWare workstation - Windows .... so if anything fails he can roll back easily.   Other than when hardware failed, I have never ever suffered through a failed upgrade on Mac OS X (one old Mac Mini failed - hard drive; main machine Mac Pro 2008 still going strong).  It is no more "complex" now to use Mac OS X than it was when I made the leap in 2008.  In fact both my older and youngest sisters leaped to Macs a few years ago..... and other than their dislike of iTunes - would never consider going back.... neither of them are really that computer savy.  In fact it is rather rare that I hear anyone jumping back to Windows after coming to Mac OS.  I was probably one of the first to jump to Macs in my office (Windows shop half-world away) but many many more have since joined me on the other side .... we know what we left, we know why we don't want to go back.  


    I totally hear you. Your post shows how Apple products used to take the least effort to use, how they trashed Wintel. Since 2006, I have been using Macbooks and would have never considered using anything else...

     

    Well, we can look into the past glory of Apple but it gives no comfort that it is falling behind. I used to be all Apple. But I ditched iPhone years ago because of its tiny screen and iCloud problems. Then, to my surprise, I found out that a digital pen is a very useful for tablet/laptop thanks to Surface Pro. Alas, I can't use a pen or touch with my Macbook.  So now for the first time in 9 years, I am considering a Wintel product - Surface Book. And my leap from the Apple system would be all much easier because I have no ties to the inefficient and buggy iCloud. 

  • Reply 304 of 399
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by enature View Post

     

    I totally hear you. Your post shows how Apple products used to take the least effort to use, how they trashed Wintel. Since 2006, I have been using Macbooks and would have never considered using anything else...

     

    Well, we can look into the past glory of Apple but it gives no comfort that it is falling behind. I used to be all Apple. But I ditched iPhone years ago because of its tiny screen and iCloud problems. Then, to my surprise, I found out that a digital pen is a very useful for tablet/laptop thanks to Surface Pro. Alas, I can't use a pen or touch with my Macbook.  So now for the first time in 9 years, I am considering a Wintel product - Surface Book. And my leap from the Apple system would be all much easier because I have no ties to the inefficient and buggy iCloud. 


    Actually since iOS 8 / iOS 9, iCloud for me, has been much improved.  Yes, it still needs improvement but it works a lot better than it used to. Siri included.

  • Reply 305 of 399
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,560member
    gatorguy wrote: »
    Mel, thank you for acknowledging that infecting a Chromebook with malware is more difficult than on on a Mac, which is a point I was making. Your honesty is admirable.

    You lost this argument too, and yet, with some badly placed sarcasm, you try to pretend that you've won it.

    And please, don't address me by my first name without giving yours.
  • Reply 306 of 399
    rogifanrogifan Posts: 10,669member
    Sounds like new Surface Book owners are running into lots of issues. And this report coming from a very Microsoft friendly site ZDNet.

    http://www.zdnet.com/article/surface-book-suffers-from-launch-day-bugs/#ftag=YHFb1d24ec

    Oops...I just notice someone else already posted this. :embarrass
  • Reply 307 of 399
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post



    Sounds like new Surface Book owners are running into lots of issues. And this report coming from a very Microsoft friendly site ZDNet.



    http://www.zdnet.com/article/surface-book-suffers-from-launch-day-bugs/#ftag=YHFb1d24ec

     

    The link was already posted and it is by a writer that has a tendency to hype even the smallest issues into massive failures -- most likely for the clicks.....  waiting for a more reliable writer to report issues.

  • Reply 308 of 399
    rogifanrogifan Posts: 10,669member
    bkkcanuck wrote: »
    The link was already posted and it is by a writer that has a tendency to hype even the smallest issues into massive failures -- most likely for the clicks.....  waiting for a more reliable writer to report issues.

    This report might be hyped but it is a fact that some reviewers had issues with the device. WSJ, Harry McCracken at Time, even The Verge team but they chalked it up to assuming they got pre-production units. The tech media is very invested in this device succeeding.
  • Reply 309 of 399
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,339member
    melgross wrote: »
    You lost this argument too, and yet, with some badly placed sarcasm, you try to pretend that you've won it.

    And please, don't address me by my first name without giving yours.
    I apologize for the familiarity Mr. Gross. Call me Gator. That's what casual friends calls me. Or GG like others use here works too.

    I've no idea what argument you're referring to me losing. You agreed it was more difficult to insert malware on a Chromebook (and every professional reviewer I found comparing OS's agrees). You apparently are talking about some other point? Which one? Wouldn't be the first time I've lost an argument as none of us including me are probably as smart as we think we are, but giving a few details to what it is would help.
  • Reply 310 of 399
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Rogifan View Post





    This report might be hyped but it is a fact that some reviewers had issues with the device. WSJ, Harry McCracken at Time, even The Verge team but they chalked it up to assuming they got pre-production units. The tech media is very invested in this device succeeding.

     

    ALL manufactured goods have lemons, but you return those when you get them and get a new one. 

     

    You can exaggerate rare problems or rare issues into massive failures....  and being that this writer tends to do that ... I prefer to ignore him.

  • Reply 311 of 399
    rogifanrogifan Posts: 10,669member
    Looks like the Surface Book hinge can scratch some surfaces. I guess be careful what you use it on.

  • Reply 312 of 399
    solipsismysolipsismy Posts: 5,099member
    rogifan wrote: »
    Looks like the Surface Book hinge can scratch some surfaces. I guess be careful what you use it on.


    Did you see the exposed, grease-covered hinge of the Surface Pro 4? iFixit has a teardown of it.

    1000



    PS: Here's how unsophisticated MS is with their logic board designs. The first image is the back of their Surface Pro 4 board. Practically bare. The second image, on the right, is the front of the back of the new MacBook that came out early this year, and the left side shows how even the front and back of the board for the PCIe-SSD card for the Surface Pro 4 is just wasted. So inefficient. Not enough sales to warrant the time and money to design and build better boards, or simply don't have the expertise to even begin to compete with Apple on that level.

    700 700
  • Reply 313 of 399
    rogifanrogifan Posts: 10,669member
    solipsismy wrote: »
    Did you see the exposed, grease-covered hinge of the Surface Pro 4? iFixit has a teardown of it.

    1000



    PS: Here's how unsophisticated MS is with their logic board designs. The first image is the back of their Surface Pro 4 board. Practically bare. The second image, on the right, is the front of the back of the new MacBook that came out early this year, and the left side shows how even the front and back of the board for the PCIe-SSD card for the Surface Pro 4 is just wasted. So inefficient. Not enough sales to warrant the time and money to design and build better boards, or simply don't have the expertise to even begin to compete with Apple on that level.

    700 700

    Eww...

    Yet Jon Fortt just tweeted Displaymates report that Surface Pro 4 has the best tablet display they've ever seen. Sigh. I wonder how iPad Pro will fare.
  • Reply 314 of 399
    knowitallknowitall Posts: 1,648member
    pmcd wrote: »
    Because most of the discussions around the use of computers is largely from the perspective of people who either type for a living or use specialized programs to manipulate video/audio. The best way I could come up with to illustrate how these activities are rudimentary(I am NOT saying that art is rudimentary or simple.) and can be addressed by virtually any system around is the very simple task of communicating science in a world where science is or should be increasingly used. The language of science is mathematics. That very simple language cannot be easily communicated using any of the so-called sophisticated devices people here are discussing (with the possible exception of the Surface devices). The i/o issue is the real issue and not the whole iOS vs Mac vs Windows debate that is going around in circles. Does that clarify things?

    Strange, I am not aware of an input method missing on the iPad and present on a surface.
  • Reply 315 of 399
    pmcdpmcd Posts: 396member
    melgross wrote: »
    I still have no idea as to what you are trying to say.

    I am sorry, but I am trying my best. I am not attempting to confuse matters but it is a pretty tricky subject.
    The entire point of technology is to simplify things for us. The less we have to understand the equipment, the better it is, because the more effort we can spend doing what the equipment is designed to do.

    I certainly agree that this is a major goal and one which distinguishes the Mac from most other platforms.


    [ ]

    My degrees are in psychology, and biology. I had a minor in physics, and two years of calculus. So I'm fairly well grounded in science. But what does that have to do with my use of a computer of any kind?
    I think this might explain the confusion. You are approaching it from the point of a scientist/artist who uses the tools to help you further your work. In a sense this is the way an applied scientist would use mathematics. I am talking about mathematics as a language, a means of communication and not specific tools.

    Most communication is done in English and we are largely trained to communicate that way. Obviously this is not the optimal mode of communication of a musician or an artist. One of the early goals of the Xerox Star and the Mac was to enable communication using an integrated toolkit of objects ( words, sound, pictures,...) in a natural way. This required a very different approach to i/o. So you had a mouse, built in audio, built in geometrical operations and so on... This enabled a far richer mode of communication than one typical found with ProDos, CP/M, MS-Dos which were for the most part very ascii or keyboard oriented. While you can communicate a rich set of ideas using English, it is not ideal when dealing with issues which are a combination of art, science, music, emotion, etc... This requires a far richer I/o capability.

    In short, keyboard = communication via English.

    While not everyone thinks of math as a language it is a very powerful method of communication. I am not talking about ramming equations down people's throats or manipulation of them. I am talking about a universal way of communicating logic, rational thinking and very complex descriptions of the world which simply would be harder to do otherwise. In order to do this you really need much more freedom of I/o than is allowed by your typical keyboard. This is where the I/o comes in. In many ways, a branch and a beach is more powerful than all the 100 page documents being churned out daily on a variety of subjects.
    So I have no idea as to what your point about using science means. Personally, I am dismayed that the right in this country is so against science, and the education of it. But that's another issue. And what does that have to do with the I/O of a device? Your posts are rather confusing.

    You must surely appreciate that the Mac allowed for richer communication than say a computer running MS-Dos? The interface and allowable I/o are key to that capability. For a very neat attempt at a human interface to Mathematica look up something that came with the NeXT. It was called Gourmet.

    Anyway, this is all getting a bit too far out. My opinion is you cannot properly discuss the scientific model of nature without using mathematics as a language. Since few people are exposed to that, the level of scientific discussion is very low and not precise. Hopefully that will change. It will, unfortunately, never change as long as people keep trying to reduce complex models and issues to levels that are then discussed and conveyed using ASCII ( I.e English for purposes of this discussion). The musician, the artist, the scientist, etc... all require richer I/o. They need more than a typewriter/keyboard.
  • Reply 316 of 399
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by melgross View Post





    Well, if one is going to consider the Surface Pro as a laptop, then it's a oretty crappy laptop. I can't believe you've ever used it is you think otherwise. I've used various Surface tablets from the first one onwards. The 10.5" models were the total pit. Absolute crap. Completely unusable on your lap, which is the entire definition of a LAPtop, which is also what a notebook is good for. The thing would fall off if you weren't very sensitive to it all the time. Even then, it was very difficult to type on, very unbalanced, and the stand bites into your legs after a very short while.



    When they went to the 12.3" screens, it got somewhat better, as the extra width helped a bit. It was less likely to fall off if you forgot to keep your knees completely together. Still, the keyboard was junk. The trackpad was junk. And it was a real pain if you needed to tap the screen, chances were that you'd knock it off. The stand still bites into your legs after a short time, and you need to be careful when typing, as it moves around.



    A laptop? Not even close! For that, the weight needs to mostly be in the keyboard. Otherwise it's always in dange of falling over.



    Really, you need to try it. If you say you have, and don't have those problems, I won't believe you.



    Perhaps you didn't understand my point - I'm not suggesting either the Surface Pro or SB are good, but that MS has been selling the SP as what is effectively a laptop.  Every ad focuses on how the keyboard is connected and the kickstand is used to hold the screen in a very laptop-like position.

     

    I give zero props to MS, other than for at least trying to do something instead of just watching the market pass them by, but I'm the guy who keeps harping on the fact that touch screen laptops / desktops are about the worst creation, given the shift from flat horizontal plane to vertical plane that requires arm and hand muscles be used, but just so much so that you don't push the screen away - it's ridiculous to even suggest doing this.

  • Reply 317 of 399
    pmcdpmcd Posts: 396member
    knowitall wrote: »
    Strange, I am not aware of an input method missing on the iPad and present on a surface.

    I did qualify the statement by the term " possible exception".

    I would say that the Surface has mouse capabilities, handwriting capabilities ( free form movement using a stylus). The iPad does allow writing but it is less than optimal due to the palm rejection problem and the capacitive screen limitations. The iPad Pro will hopefully deal with the writing issue.

    Does the iPad allow for a trackpad? Even the iPad Pro keyboard seems to lack one. Not a big deal as the whole screen is in a sense a trackpad.
  • Reply 318 of 399
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by pmcd View Post





    I did qualify the statement by the term " possible exception".



    I would say that the Surface has mouse capabilities, handwriting capabilities ( free form movement using a stylus). The iPad does allow writing but it is less than optimal due to the palm rejection problem and the capacitive screen limitations. The iPad Pro will hopefully deal with the writing issue.



    Does the iPad allow for a trackpad? Even the iPad Pro keyboard seems to lack one. Not a big deal as the whole screen is in a sense a trackpad.

    There is no concept of a trackpad or mouse on the iPad.  The iPad Pro does exceptionally well on palm rejection based on the few that have made it into hands of artists to test.  The stylus/pencil also has very little noticeable lag to it - probably since it is doing some sort of forward predicting in where the pencil will go so it is ready.

  • Reply 319 of 399
    Originally Posted by bkkcanuck View Post

    The iPad Pro does exceptionally well on palm rejection based on the few that have made it into hands of artists to test.

     

    That’s my biggest concern, particularly when working with the Pencil.

  • Reply 320 of 399
    danvmdanvm Posts: 1,446member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by pmcd View Post





    I think the issue with point 1) is related to the aspect ratio. The Surface tablets are all 3:2 which makes landscape a more comfortable orientation. I agree with that criticism. While 3:2 is not as bad as 16:9 or 16:10 it is still a bit strange using the Surface tablets in portrait mode. This is one very nice property of the iPad. 4:3 just seems, to me, to be a better geometrical shape for a tablet ( and even a phone. The switch to widescreen for the iPhone and iPod touch was disappointing. Mind you, the results there were not as critical given the way people use those devices. I still preferred 4:3 though.).



    I partially agree with your point 3). The Surface Pro 4 is very nice. I think they still need less power and more battery life. Also, I never could get over the very slight lag and offset of the Surface Pro 3 stylus. It just was not as good as a pen. Mind you, I don't know how well the iPad Pro's Pencil will be in that regard. The screen of the Surface Pro 4 is much nicer than that of the MA which hasn't changed in years. Of course the battery life of the MA is almost twice that of the Surface Pro 4 and the MacBook.



    1)  I found the screen in the Surface Book too big.  I prefer the screen size in the SP4, at least for my needs. 

     

    2)  I'll love to sacrifice some battery life for a better screen in my MBA.

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