Apple resists MacBook, iPad Pro convergence as Microsoft struggles with Surface Windows 10 hybrids

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  • Reply 281 of 399
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,544member
    danvm wrote: »
    I tried Windows 10 in a Surface and was a very positive experience.  Maybe is not perfect, but is very close to be a great OS for 2 in 1 devices. 

    Acceptable, maybe.
    danvm wrote: »

    In your post I would change "Surface" for "Macbook" and "Windows" for "Apple", and then it would make sense.  :D

    Really, no, not in the slightest.
    danvm wrote: »

    What defines if you need a keyboard and stylus is the app and not the device.  Do I need a keyboard to see a movie in a Surface Pro or iPad Pro?  No.  What if I want to edit a document or work in a spreadsheet?  Won't it better with a keyboard, either be in an iPad Pro or a Surface Pro?  Of course it will be better.  Same as the Pen / Pencil with drawing or note taking applications. 

    No, the Desktop is pretty terrible without at least, a stylus. And that's the problem. The OS and most apps aren't ready for this. Not at all.

    danvm wrote: »

    No, it would be far worst than a Surface, since OS X do not have a touch UI at all.  At least MS is doing very good creating a UI for touch and mouse / keyboard. 

    Interestingly, Windows has almost no concessions to tough. And as clumsy as it may be, OS X works just about as well as Windows does with touch. Neither work well.
  • Reply 282 of 399
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,544member
    gatorguy wrote: »
    If you look around Mel you can find really good threads once in awhile that welcome discussion of competitors platforms. This link is one of those IMHO
    http://forums.androidcentral.com/samsung-galaxy-note-5/592657-aggravated-ios-android-back-forth.html

    Uh huh. Just read the
    Siting there, or on any other non Apple site. I think your ignoring g what you don't want to acknowledge.
  • Reply 283 of 399
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,544member
    canukstorm wrote: »
    Definitely an enjoyable read.  The two parts that stand out most, to me;

    "Imagine a device that is like the Surface Pro in reverse: It’s mostly laptop, maybe exclusively so for some people, but there are tablet-like features when you want them. That was the that image formed in Panay’s head early on. It wouldn’t be a tablet, though—that part was important. Panay took to calling it a “clipboard” instead, something you grab when you need it for a specific purpose. Maybe you’re an architect, showing blueprints to a client. Maybe you’re a doctor carrying charts. Maybe you’re showing off new logo designs. Maybe you just want to read in bed. It would do those things, and well, but not at the expense of being a laptop."

    "The Surface Book is on sale today. Pre-orders have been huge—Panay says they’re selling laptops faster than they can make them."

    It's a real joke to say that they're sold out, or are selling product faster than they "can" make them, without also stating numbers as to how many they are actually selling. Since they refuse to do that, and we know that Surface sales are very low, what are we supposed to think about these sales? Probably small numbers.
  • Reply 284 of 399
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,286member
    melgross wrote: »
    Uh huh. Just read the
    Siting there, or on any other non Apple site. I think your ignoring g what you don't want to acknowledge.
    What don't I want to acknowledge? There's trolls all over, but there's also good discussions that take place generally troll and insult free. You'd acknowledge that, right? it doesn't always have to sink into a swamp whenever competing products or platforms are discussed, and when it doesn't good info gets exchanged.
  • Reply 285 of 399
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by DanVM View Post

     



    What defines if you need a keyboard and stylus is the app and not the device.  Do I need a keyboard to see a movie in a Surface Pro or iPad Pro?  No.  What if I want to edit a document or work in a spreadsheet?  Won't it better with a keyboard, either be in an iPad Pro or a Surface Pro?  Of course it will be better.  Same as the Pen / Pencil with drawing or note taking applications. 


     

    Missed this one.  I will try this one.  Can you use all the standard applications (productivity, games, browsing, etc.) via touch fairly intuitive.  Is the layout designed with fat fingers in mind, or is the area that you are regularly suppose to touch tiny and thus not easy to have near 100% accuracy during touch.  If you have menus, are they spaced, can you select them easily through touch - menus for mice/stylus tend to fit more lines on the screen but harder on the fat fingers.   Is the keyboard and stylus meant to be primary input devices or nice to have for maybe word processing or drawing.    The benefit iPad had with designing from the ground up to be touch, is even if they did not have everything after burning down the house - it was consistent and designed around touch.  It is easier to add the use of mice and stylus after the ecosystem is in place -- with new applications -- rather than having it be a weird mix of legacy applications which clutter and may never be redesigned from the ground up to be a touch interface. 

  • Reply 286 of 399
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,544member
    canukstorm wrote: »
    "Considering the tablet portion of the Surface Book only gets 2-4 hours battery life what's the point?"

    That's just it. If you click on the links to the two WIRED articles that were posted, even the Surface design team doesn't think of the detached screen as a full tablet. it's a "clipboard",  only there for specific purposes.  It'll be interesting to see a year from now, how the market takes to this device.

    That's ridiculous! They spend all of the money building this rather expensive (especially for the windows market) notebook, and then one of the primary features, which is to have a tablet portion, doesn't work long enough to be of real use as a tablet.

    So now the excuse is that it's not really intended for that, just for a clipboard? Who are they trying to kid?
  • Reply 287 of 399
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,286member
    bkkcanuck wrote: »
    That is not a fresh copy every-time - no more fresh than Windows loading it's operating system or Apple loading it's operating system....  The only thing fresh is a fresh copy in volatile memory.  Verified boot is not going to protect you against all malware, only really the opportunistic type of malware....   Underneath it all it is really just linux with Chrome OS UI interface -- hard to install malware -- but not impossible.
    Of course it's not impossible which no one claimed in the first place. It is certainly more difficult to do so on a Chromebook than Windows, probably even more difficult than on a Mac. Both desktop systems allow software to be loaded, a prime breeding ground for malware. A Chromebook does not.
  • Reply 288 of 399
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post





    Of course it's not impossible which no one claimed in the first place. It is certainly more difficult to do so on a Chromebook than Windows, probably even more difficult than on a Mac.

     

    It probably is more secure - if you take away the ability for the user to do anything - then you have closed the biggest problem with security these days.... social engineering of the user.

     

    I just found it funny that you were saying that it installed a fresh copy of the OS each boot.... it is no different than Windows or Mac OS in that respect -- it boots an image from local storage/firmware.....  the only difference is the core OS is Linux not BSD or Windows.

  • Reply 289 of 399
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,286member
    bkkcanuck wrote: »
    It probably is more secure - if you take away the ability for the user to do anything
    Not sure what you mean. You don't have to disable any security on a Chromebook to use it for everything it was designed for, and it does just about anything a typical user would need.
  • Reply 290 of 399
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,544member
    jmgregory1 wrote: »

    I would go one step further and suggest that the Surface Pro itself is still nothing more than a laptop, so MS has now two very similar laptops, one where the keyboard is the detachable feature and the other where the screen is the detachable element.  They've clearly leapt in front of Apple with their groundbreaking new laptops and out of the box thinking.

    Well, if one is going to consider the Surface Pro as a laptop, then it's a oretty crappy laptop. I can't believe you've ever used it is you think otherwise. I've used various Surface tablets from the first one onwards. The 10.5" models were the total pit. Absolute crap. Completely unusable on your lap, which is the entire definition of a LAPtop, which is also what a notebook is good for. The thing would fall off if you weren't very sensitive to it all the time. Even then, it was very difficult to type on, very unbalanced, and the stand bites into your legs after a very short while.

    When they went to the 12.3" screens, it got somewhat better, as the extra width helped a bit. It was less likely to fall off if you forgot to keep your knees completely together. Still, the keyboard was junk. The trackpad was junk. And it was a real pain if you needed to tap the screen, chances were that you'd knock it off. The stand still bites into your legs after a short time, and you need to be careful when typing, as it moves around.

    A laptop? Not even close! For that, the weight needs to mostly be in the keyboard. Otherwise it's always in dange of falling over.

    Really, you need to try it. If you say you have, and don't have those problems, I won't believe you.
  • Reply 291 of 399
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by Gatorguy View Post





    Not sure what you mean. You don't have to disable any security on a Chromebook to use it for everything it was designed for, and it does just about anything a typical user would need.

     

    Put it this way - you can harden the mac in the same way by restricting terminal / bash command line to ping and a few other things, remove the ability to install applications that don't come from the Apple store.... and you have the same security.  God help them if they ever decided to do that though - it would make their userbase shrink to the same size as Chromebooks at most.

  • Reply 292 of 399
    Quote:

    Originally Posted by bkkcanuck View Post

     

     

    Other sources??  I get the distinct feeling this guy likes hyping even the most minor problems to drive clicks.


    That's the only source I have for now.  If I come across anymore I'll post them.

  • Reply 293 of 399
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,544member
    gatorguy wrote: »
    Really? I get a fresh copy of the OS every time I turn it on. Now if you're referring to a malicious extension syncing from a browser on your Mac or Windows machine yes. Those are easy enough to deal with if you happen to encounter one by turning off extension syncing, turning off the Chromebook and then turning it back on. Like a Mac it';s nearly impossible to get a virus infection. Like a Mac malware sometimes comes from odd places but generally easy to deal with.

    There are lots of ways. numerous articles about it.

    http://www.makeuseof.com/tag/3-reasons-chromebook-solve-digital-security-issues/

    http://www.techradar.com/us/news/internet/web/malware-infected-extensions-take-shine-off-chrome-1216778
  • Reply 294 of 399
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,286member
    bkkcanuck wrote: »
    Put it this way - you can harden the mac in the same way by restricting terminal / bash command line to ping and a few other things, remove the ability to install applications that don't come from the Apple store.... and you have the same security.  God help them if they ever decided to do that though - it would make their userbase shrink to the same size as Chromebooks at most.

    Considering the majority of Chromebooks are reportedly sold to educational institutions the actual userbase is probably larger than you might expect. 10's of millions would not be out of the question. It's predicted that by the end of this year there will be more Chromebooks in schools than all other computers combined, with new device activations currently tracking at 30K a day.

    Sure, there's little exciting about them but they certainly fill a need at least for educators.
  • Reply 295 of 399
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    Wake up! Apple isn't on any downwards path. And Apple didn't copy Samsung. Larger screens are inevitable, and Apple had been enlarging screens every couple of years. 

    Rationalize post-factum as much as you want about why Samsung beat Apple to the market with large screens, but these are not the key reasons why Apple, in my opinion, is in trouble.

     

    The main reason why Apple will be falling is because their products now starting to take more efforts to use that their competitors. The horrendous iCloud and the lack of touch on Mac OS are just culprits of Cooks inability to lead. Competitors are far from perfect, but they are getting there.

     

    Google's cloud with Gmail & Chrome clearly trashes Apple's cloud. It takes less effort to use the Google cloud system than the Apple cloud system.

     

    Similarly with the hardware: I have both Macbook Pro and Surface Pro 3. For some tasks I simply have to use Surface Pro 3 thanks to its active digitizer/pen combo. It would take way too much effort to do the same thing on my Macbook Pro because it lacks touch. So I have to drag now both devices with me... No surprise that now I am seriously considering Surface Book.

     

    Sadly, Apple products are becoming harder to use relative to their competitors. I used to be very passionate about Apple. Now I just watch, and I watch and iWatch, and become increasingly disappointed. 

  • Reply 296 of 399
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,544member
    bkkcanuck wrote: »
    Other sources??  I get the distinct feeling this guy likes hyping even the most minor problems to drive clicks.

    Lots of sources. Here are two.

    http://www.forbes.com/forbes/welcome/

    http://www.microsoft.com/surface/en-us/support/warranty-service-and-recovery/surface-wont-turn-on?os=windows-10
  • Reply 297 of 399
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,544member
    gatorguy wrote: »
    What don't I want to acknowledge? There's trolls all over, but there's also good discussions that take place generally troll and insult free. You'd acknowledge that, right? it doesn't always have to sink into a swamp whenever competing products or platforms are discussed, and when it doesn't good info gets exchanged.

    There are places where that happens, just not on that site.
  • Reply 298 of 399
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,544member
    gatorguy wrote: »
    Of course it's not impossible which no one claimed in the first place. It is certainly more difficult to do so on a Chromebook than Windows, probably even more difficult than on a Mac. Both desktop systems allow software to be loaded, a prime breeding ground for malware. A Chromebook does not.

    Far more difficult than on a Mac. And you know that.
  • Reply 299 of 399
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,286member
    melgross wrote: »
    Numerous articles? Hardly. If so there must be a veritable waterfall of security problems with OSx, which of course there isn't.

    From your first link, first paragraph:
    " It’s (Chrome OS) probably the most secure operating system in the world..."

    The issue mentioned in your second link, a problem created from selling of vetted extensions to 3rd parties, became a on-starter. As of last year extensions not coming directly from Google's Web store are blocked.

    http://www.geekwire.com/2015/google-blocks-chrome-extensions-from-outside-its-store-on-windows-mac-coming-this-summer/
  • Reply 300 of 399
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,544member
    enature wrote: »
    Rationalize post-factum as much as you want about why Samsung beat Apple to the market with large screens, but these are not the key reasons why Apple, in my opinion, is in trouble.

    The main reason why Apple will be falling is because their products now starting to take more efforts to use that their competitors. The horrendous iCloud and the lack of touch on Mac OS are just culprits of Cooks inability to lead. Competitors are far from perfect, but they are getting there.

    Google's cloud with Gmail & Chrome clearly trashes Apple's cloud. It takes less effort to use the Google cloud system than the Apple cloud system.

    Similarly with the hardware: I have both Macbook Pro and Surface Pro 3. For some tasks I simply have to use Surface Pro 3 thanks to its active digitizer/pen combo. It would take way too much effort to do the same thing on my Macbook Pro because it lacks touch. So I have to drag now both devices with me... No surprise that now I am seriously considering Surface Book.

    Sadly, Apple products are becoming harder to use relative to their competitors. I used to be very passionate about Apple. Now I just watch, and I watch and iWatch, and become increasingly disappointed. 

    Fortunately, these are just your opinions, and they don't match those in the real world of purchasing products.
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