FCC chairman urges Apple to activate FM radios in iPhones in light of recent disasters [u]...

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  • Reply 141 of 153
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,562member
    maestro64 said:
    tmay said:
    trumptman said:
    tmay said:
    trumptman said:
    Apple can state that current iPhones may not have to capability for FM bit it clearly isn't something expensive or hard to engineer into future phones and it should be done.

    Many instances where the access to services is restricted, it stinks of a pure power and money grab.

    So there is the emergency services area to consider but also the fact that many of our complaints are with regulated monopolies that control public property and make billions off it. This could be public right of way access for cable television and internet access, public airways for satellite television, public over the air television stations and radio stations.

    Apple showed their own wisdom here when the forced carriers to take the iPhone without controlling items on the iPhone. The carriers tried to use control of one area (cell networks) to control another area (cell phones). Phones should be to access FM radio rather than just streaming.

    You are talking to a guy that has a generator. Has several stand alone radios that can run 100 hours on two AA batteries.

    I'd love to see the government clean up our access to over the air television and force some better programming there. It would be so nice to have what is available in places like the U.K with DTT aka Freeview.

    Right now they keep locking away abilities behind payments. Stream your music if you have enough data. Stream your television if you have a service and home internet (which they are trying to cap in areas where there is no competition.) 

    VCR's didn't require permission to record a program off the television. We could have phones that stream and get FM. We could have televisions that have good programming over the air and via the internet.

    More is better and in this case safer. It is just mandating access to what you already own, the public airways.
    No iPhone has ever had FM capability. Apple has sold over a billion of them. I'm guessing that nobody missed it.

    Really would be stupid to add it now to solve a problem best solved in other ways. But if legislation is the answer, then how about something more useful than FM radio.
    tmay said:
    trumptman said:
    Apple can state that current iPhones may not have to capability for FM bit it clearly isn't something expensive or hard to engineer into future phones and it should be done.

    Many instances where the access to services is restricted, it stinks of a pure power and money grab.

    So there is the emergency services area to consider but also the fact that many of our complaints are with regulated monopolies that control public property and make billions off it. This could be public right of way access for cable television and internet access, public airways for satellite television, public over the air television stations and radio stations.

    Apple showed their own wisdom here when the forced carriers to take the iPhone without controlling items on the iPhone. The carriers tried to use control of one area (cell networks) to control another area (cell phones). Phones should be to access FM radio rather than just streaming.

    You are talking to a guy that has a generator. Has several stand alone radios that can run 100 hours on two AA batteries.

    I'd love to see the government clean up our access to over the air television and force some better programming there. It would be so nice to have what is available in places like the U.K with DTT aka Freeview.

    Right now they keep locking away abilities behind payments. Stream your music if you have enough data. Stream your television if you have a service and home internet (which they are trying to cap in areas where there is no competition.) 

    VCR's didn't require permission to record a program off the television. We could have phones that stream and get FM. We could have televisions that have good programming over the air and via the internet.

    More is better and in this case safer. It is just mandating access to what you already own, the public airways.
    No iPhone has ever had FM capability. Apple has sold over a billion of them. I'm guessing that nobody missed it.

    Really would be stupid to add it now to solve a problem best solved in other ways. But if legislation is the answer, then how about something more useful than FM radio.
    No iPhone had facial recognition until Apple added it. No iPhone had fingerprint recognition until Apple added it. That reasoning is a bit inane. Plus this isn't some expensive or cutting edge feature. 

    Also it isn't that legislation is the answer in THIS particular case. The FCC already controls every radio frequency the phone receives for cellular service, for wifi, etc. The iPhone is required to be certified in order to even be sold. This isn't some area where the control is 99% private and the government is encroaching. All the airwaves are 100% public controlled. Mandating FM reception is no different than every other way the phone is mandated to work with regard to radio frequencies. 
    The FCC hasn't mandated it.

    Maybe they will, but FM doesn't look like that great a solution for emergencies anyway as it isn't two way communication.

    Really you're advocating a two way EBS, we have that it is call 911, go talk to those people when less than true emergency situation exist, they get people calling asking for help finding their lost cat or could someone come and clean the snow off their car. I am assuming you never played with a CB radio, do you know what happens when everyone tries to talk at once. There is a reason the EBS is one way, it is the governments way of telling people what to do, they are not interested in hearing people whine and complain.
    One way communication provides very little benefit after an event occurs, and the FCC and FEMA would be better off with a robust low bandwidth system that provides two way simple text and basic data, you know, like a cell system could provide already. This is consumer friendly as voice to text is a common feature of smartphones.

    Cell networks collapse from overuse in emergencies precisely because they aren't managed to survive that. Requiring networks to "fail" down to text and simple data modes like Amber Alert, would free up bandwidth and provide plenty of detailed management data for FEMA and also provide minimal capability for individuals in the emergency to inform FEMA of their needs. Moreover, put more effort into making cell sites more robust and survivable, or at least require portions of the site to survive.

    But of course, those solutions are more complex and expensive solutions, more regulations, and more effort than simply "wishing" that Apple had provided an FM capability that it wasn't required to. More to the point, that the FCC and FEMA had 10 years of opportunity to correct, and didn't; Apple had to provide regulatory filings for each and every iPhone to the FCC.
    edited September 2017
  • Reply 142 of 153
    ...but with no antenna, and no way to add one in hardware retroactively…
    People think Steve Jobs was magic. When he said, “We’ll add that button after it ships,” they figured it extended to hardware, too.  :p
  • Reply 143 of 153
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 4,343administrator
    trumptman said:
    trumptman said:
     So what about devices prior to iPhone 7, Apple?!
    STILL NO FM ANTENNA. 

    This has never been a switch to throw, regardless of what the FCC chairman says.
    I know this has been noted but to me it doesn’t pass the smell test. Every other phone with the same chips and a headphone jack (we are talking iPhone 6S and below) has the FM ability and Apple doesn’t? We’ve seen Apple do this in a number of areas. RIght now they intentionally throttle down the Qualcomm chip so that it matches the performance of the Intel chip as an example. People know the capabilities of the chips and what they can and can’t do but Apple does what they do too.
    Okay, one more time. There are physics at work, here.

    Having FM compatibility in a chip does not mean that the support equipment for same chip is included. The modem chip in the 5 to 6s chip itself is not an antenna, and prior phones don't have an FM-capable modem at all. There would have to be support equipment inside the phone for a headphone antenna. 

    That support equipment does not exist. Therefore, there is no software switch to throw to make this work, and Pai could have sent an intern into the FCC documents to see if this was possible. Why he didn't is a mystery to me.

    Could Apple engineer this in hardware and software in the future if it wanted to? Sure.

    Is it a dormant ability in the previous phones that it just decided that it wanted to not turn on in iOS? No. 

    Could they turn on the chip in the 5 through 6s in software? Sure -- but with no antenna, and no way to add one in hardware retroactively, it wouldn't do anything.

     I'm suggesting the equipment exists and Apple just doesn't want to do it. 
    You are completely and utterly incorrect about your assumption. I am not taking Apple's word on the matter. Feel free to take apart some phones and look for the support hardware. Feel free to scour iFixit's teardowns.

    You won't find the antenna support in hardware, because it isn't there.

    I don't really care about a mandate, one way or another. But, it isn't going to happen in older iPhones.
    edited September 2017 trumptman
  • Reply 144 of 153
    Apple does not work for the government, and as far as I know, they have no R&D contracts with the government, so they have no obligation to do the FCC's bidding (or that of any other government agency, except where prescribed by law). It seems that whenever some terrible thing happens, the government uses that event to further some pet agenda. After the San Bernadino attacks, the FBI tried to get Apple to build a backdoor into their devices. Now, following several hurricane disasters, FCC wants Apple to turn their phones into FM radios.
    tallest skil
  • Reply 145 of 153
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 20,282member
    Apple does not work for the government, and as far as I know, they have no R&D contracts with the government, so they have no obligation to do the FCC's bidding (or that of any other government agency, except where prescribed by law). It seems that whenever some terrible thing happens, the government uses that event to further some pet agenda. After the San Bernadino attacks, the FBI tried to get Apple to build a backdoor into their devices. Now, following several hurricane disasters, FCC wants Apple to turn their phones into FM radios.
    Sidenote on the San Bernardino issue: A District Court judge has ruled the FBI is not obligated to reveal how they accessed the attacker's iPhone
    https://www.documentcloud.org/documents/4064163-FOIA-case-vs-FBI-phone-unlock.html
  • Reply 146 of 153
    nhtnht Posts: 4,429member
    trumptman said:
    trumptman said:
     So what about devices prior to iPhone 7, Apple?!
    STILL NO FM ANTENNA. 

    This has never been a switch to throw, regardless of what the FCC chairman says.
    I know this has been noted but to me it doesn’t pass the smell test. Every other phone with the same chips and a headphone jack (we are talking iPhone 6S and below) has the FM ability and Apple doesn’t? We’ve seen Apple do this in a number of areas. RIght now they intentionally throttle down the Qualcomm chip so that it matches the performance of the Intel chip as an example. People know the capabilities of the chips and what they can and can’t do but Apple does what they do too.
    Okay, one more time. There are physics at work, here.

    Having FM compatibility in a chip does not mean that the support equipment for same chip is included. The modem chip in the 5 to 6s chip itself is not an antenna, and prior phones don't have an FM-capable modem at all. There would have to be support equipment inside the phone for a headphone antenna. 

    That support equipment does not exist. Therefore, there is no software switch to throw to make this work, and Pai could have sent an intern into the FCC documents to see if this was possible. Why he didn't is a mystery to me.

    Could Apple engineer this in hardware and software in the future if it wanted to? Sure.

    Is it a dormant ability in the previous phones that it just decided that it wanted to not turn on in iOS? No. 

    Could they turn on the chip in the 5 through 6s in software? Sure -- but with no antenna, and no way to add one in hardware retroactively, it wouldn't do anything.

    That's not my understanding nor what I've seen reported elsewhere. I fully understand that all FM compatibility will cell phones requires an antenna and that all phones up to this point use the headphones attached through the headphone jack to provide that antenna. I'm also fully aware that Apple increasingly is engineering their own custom chips beyond the CPU and now GPU and as part of that process, they don't want to include this ability in those chips when they find a way to move past Intel and Qualcomm as an example. Basically we don't have the ability via schematics on the headphone port iPhones to know whether Apple is capable of turning on the FM chip or just digging in their heels. I'm suggesting the equipment exists and Apple just doesn't want to do it. I mentioned the examples of Apple being unwilling to acknowledge clear hardware differences and differences in capabilities in hardware between vendors for the iPhone. The most recent example was Quallcomm vs Intel but prior examples involved CPU's being sourced from difference sources, screens, etc. Apple's official word isn't good enough. We've seen this capability blocked via software on Android phones and even then the vendors haven't been very eager to provide access. For example on the Samsung phones there had to be an update and then people had to gain access via third party app.

    All that said, I think it appropriate to mandate this ability going forward and Apple should be included in that mandate. I understand we should all be prepared. However there are times when we aren't at home with all our goodies. I think of my own son right now who is of that younger generation. He doesn't even seem to worry much about driving and even seems to enjoy taking public transit buses to university. If something were to go down in terms of an earthquake in California. He can't go to his car and turn on the radio. What he will have on him is his phone and this is true of lots of people. Right now it is is merely an urging. I would recommend it be a mandate.
    WTF. Since when the heck did you start wanting a nanny state?
  • Reply 147 of 153
    trumptmantrumptman Posts: 16,454member
    nht said:
    trumptman said:
    trumptman said:
     So what about devices prior to iPhone 7, Apple?!
    STILL NO FM ANTENNA. 

    This has never been a switch to throw, regardless of what the FCC chairman says.
    I know this has been noted but to me it doesn’t pass the smell test. Every other phone with the same chips and a headphone jack (we are talking iPhone 6S and below) has the FM ability and Apple doesn’t? We’ve seen Apple do this in a number of areas. RIght now they intentionally throttle down the Qualcomm chip so that it matches the performance of the Intel chip as an example. People know the capabilities of the chips and what they can and can’t do but Apple does what they do too.
    Okay, one more time. There are physics at work, here.

    Having FM compatibility in a chip does not mean that the support equipment for same chip is included. The modem chip in the 5 to 6s chip itself is not an antenna, and prior phones don't have an FM-capable modem at all. There would have to be support equipment inside the phone for a headphone antenna. 

    That support equipment does not exist. Therefore, there is no software switch to throw to make this work, and Pai could have sent an intern into the FCC documents to see if this was possible. Why he didn't is a mystery to me.

    Could Apple engineer this in hardware and software in the future if it wanted to? Sure.

    Is it a dormant ability in the previous phones that it just decided that it wanted to not turn on in iOS? No. 

    Could they turn on the chip in the 5 through 6s in software? Sure -- but with no antenna, and no way to add one in hardware retroactively, it wouldn't do anything.

    That's not my understanding nor what I've seen reported elsewhere. I fully understand that all FM compatibility will cell phones requires an antenna and that all phones up to this point use the headphones attached through the headphone jack to provide that antenna. I'm also fully aware that Apple increasingly is engineering their own custom chips beyond the CPU and now GPU and as part of that process, they don't want to include this ability in those chips when they find a way to move past Intel and Qualcomm as an example. Basically we don't have the ability via schematics on the headphone port iPhones to know whether Apple is capable of turning on the FM chip or just digging in their heels. I'm suggesting the equipment exists and Apple just doesn't want to do it. I mentioned the examples of Apple being unwilling to acknowledge clear hardware differences and differences in capabilities in hardware between vendors for the iPhone. The most recent example was Quallcomm vs Intel but prior examples involved CPU's being sourced from difference sources, screens, etc. Apple's official word isn't good enough. We've seen this capability blocked via software on Android phones and even then the vendors haven't been very eager to provide access. For example on the Samsung phones there had to be an update and then people had to gain access via third party app.

    All that said, I think it appropriate to mandate this ability going forward and Apple should be included in that mandate. I understand we should all be prepared. However there are times when we aren't at home with all our goodies. I think of my own son right now who is of that younger generation. He doesn't even seem to worry much about driving and even seems to enjoy taking public transit buses to university. If something were to go down in terms of an earthquake in California. He can't go to his car and turn on the radio. What he will have on him is his phone and this is true of lots of people. Right now it is is merely an urging. I would recommend it be a mandate.
    WTF. Since when the heck did you start wanting a nanny state?
    I have no ideal what you are talking about. Are you trolling?
  • Reply 148 of 153
    nhtnht Posts: 4,429member
    trumptman said:
    nht said:
    trumptman said:
    trumptman said:
     So what about devices prior to iPhone 7, Apple?!
    STILL NO FM ANTENNA. 

    This has never been a switch to throw, regardless of what the FCC chairman says.
    I know this has been noted but to me it doesn’t pass the smell test. Every other phone with the same chips and a headphone jack (we are talking iPhone 6S and below) has the FM ability and Apple doesn’t? We’ve seen Apple do this in a number of areas. RIght now they intentionally throttle down the Qualcomm chip so that it matches the performance of the Intel chip as an example. People know the capabilities of the chips and what they can and can’t do but Apple does what they do too.
    Okay, one more time. There are physics at work, here.

    Having FM compatibility in a chip does not mean that the support equipment for same chip is included. The modem chip in the 5 to 6s chip itself is not an antenna, and prior phones don't have an FM-capable modem at all. There would have to be support equipment inside the phone for a headphone antenna. 

    That support equipment does not exist. Therefore, there is no software switch to throw to make this work, and Pai could have sent an intern into the FCC documents to see if this was possible. Why he didn't is a mystery to me.

    Could Apple engineer this in hardware and software in the future if it wanted to? Sure.

    Is it a dormant ability in the previous phones that it just decided that it wanted to not turn on in iOS? No. 

    Could they turn on the chip in the 5 through 6s in software? Sure -- but with no antenna, and no way to add one in hardware retroactively, it wouldn't do anything.

    That's not my understanding nor what I've seen reported elsewhere. I fully understand that all FM compatibility will cell phones requires an antenna and that all phones up to this point use the headphones attached through the headphone jack to provide that antenna. I'm also fully aware that Apple increasingly is engineering their own custom chips beyond the CPU and now GPU and as part of that process, they don't want to include this ability in those chips when they find a way to move past Intel and Qualcomm as an example. Basically we don't have the ability via schematics on the headphone port iPhones to know whether Apple is capable of turning on the FM chip or just digging in their heels. I'm suggesting the equipment exists and Apple just doesn't want to do it. I mentioned the examples of Apple being unwilling to acknowledge clear hardware differences and differences in capabilities in hardware between vendors for the iPhone. The most recent example was Quallcomm vs Intel but prior examples involved CPU's being sourced from difference sources, screens, etc. Apple's official word isn't good enough. We've seen this capability blocked via software on Android phones and even then the vendors haven't been very eager to provide access. For example on the Samsung phones there had to be an update and then people had to gain access via third party app.

    All that said, I think it appropriate to mandate this ability going forward and Apple should be included in that mandate. I understand we should all be prepared. However there are times when we aren't at home with all our goodies. I think of my own son right now who is of that younger generation. He doesn't even seem to worry much about driving and even seems to enjoy taking public transit buses to university. If something were to go down in terms of an earthquake in California. He can't go to his car and turn on the radio. What he will have on him is his phone and this is true of lots of people. Right now it is is merely an urging. I would recommend it be a mandate.
    WTF. Since when the heck did you start wanting a nanny state?
    I have no ideal what you are talking about. Are you trolling?
    Because having the government force companies and people to do stuff because "think of the children" is a liberal thing.  

    I don't really care either way but it seems silly to believe he's any safer or better prepared because he has a radio so FEMA might be able to tell him "hey, there's been an earthquake"...
  • Reply 149 of 153
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 4,343administrator
    Do not pollute my news page, please. First and only warning.
  • Reply 150 of 153
    nhtnht Posts: 4,429member
    Sorry, you can delete if you like.  It's just annoying when folks want to mandate Apple do something that likely doesn't help much but will make iPhones worse battery and size wise.
    edited October 2017
  • Reply 151 of 153
    trumptmantrumptman Posts: 16,454member
    nht said:
    trumptman said:
    nht said:
    trumptman said:
    trumptman said:
     So what about devices prior to iPhone 7, Apple?!
    STILL NO FM ANTENNA. 

    This has never been a switch to throw, regardless of what the FCC chairman says.
    I know this has been noted but to me it doesn’t pass the smell test. Every other phone with the same chips and a headphone jack (we are talking iPhone 6S and below) has the FM ability and Apple doesn’t? We’ve seen Apple do this in a number of areas. RIght now they intentionally throttle down the Qualcomm chip so that it matches the performance of the Intel chip as an example. People know the capabilities of the chips and what they can and can’t do but Apple does what they do too.
    Okay, one more time. There are physics at work, here.

    Having FM compatibility in a chip does not mean that the support equipment for same chip is included. The modem chip in the 5 to 6s chip itself is not an antenna, and prior phones don't have an FM-capable modem at all. There would have to be support equipment inside the phone for a headphone antenna. 

    That support equipment does not exist. Therefore, there is no software switch to throw to make this work, and Pai could have sent an intern into the FCC documents to see if this was possible. Why he didn't is a mystery to me.

    Could Apple engineer this in hardware and software in the future if it wanted to? Sure.

    Is it a dormant ability in the previous phones that it just decided that it wanted to not turn on in iOS? No. 

    Could they turn on the chip in the 5 through 6s in software? Sure -- but with no antenna, and no way to add one in hardware retroactively, it wouldn't do anything.

    That's not my understanding nor what I've seen reported elsewhere. I fully understand that all FM compatibility will cell phones requires an antenna and that all phones up to this point use the headphones attached through the headphone jack to provide that antenna. I'm also fully aware that Apple increasingly is engineering their own custom chips beyond the CPU and now GPU and as part of that process, they don't want to include this ability in those chips when they find a way to move past Intel and Qualcomm as an example. Basically we don't have the ability via schematics on the headphone port iPhones to know whether Apple is capable of turning on the FM chip or just digging in their heels. I'm suggesting the equipment exists and Apple just doesn't want to do it. I mentioned the examples of Apple being unwilling to acknowledge clear hardware differences and differences in capabilities in hardware between vendors for the iPhone. The most recent example was Quallcomm vs Intel but prior examples involved CPU's being sourced from difference sources, screens, etc. Apple's official word isn't good enough. We've seen this capability blocked via software on Android phones and even then the vendors haven't been very eager to provide access. For example on the Samsung phones there had to be an update and then people had to gain access via third party app.

    All that said, I think it appropriate to mandate this ability going forward and Apple should be included in that mandate. I understand we should all be prepared. However there are times when we aren't at home with all our goodies. I think of my own son right now who is of that younger generation. He doesn't even seem to worry much about driving and even seems to enjoy taking public transit buses to university. If something were to go down in terms of an earthquake in California. He can't go to his car and turn on the radio. What he will have on him is his phone and this is true of lots of people. Right now it is is merely an urging. I would recommend it be a mandate.
    WTF. Since when the heck did you start wanting a nanny state?
    I have no ideal what you are talking about. Are you trolling?
    Because having the government force companies and people to do stuff because "think of the children" is a liberal thing.  

    I don't really care either way but it seems silly to believe he's any safer or better prepared because he has a radio so FEMA might be able to tell him "hey, there's been an earthquake"...
    I addressed this much earlier. The radio spectrum is owned by the public and is regulated in every imaginable manner. It isn't some case that "Oh gee this FM radio thing would be a government intrusion on private industry." Every device is tested, regulated, etc. Being allowed to broadcast is regulated, licensed, etc. Basically there isn't a way around this regulation. Every radio signal an iPhone receives or sends is government regulated period. There's no sliding scale.

    When people talk about prepping and not needing as much government intervention they'll say things like they have food stores, a generator, firearms, etc. No one is going to set up a cell tower or an FM transmitter and just bypass the government control in this area to avoid having the government having to do something for them or bypass this with their own preparation.

    Plus in all honestly, aside from Apple it almost seems like it is as much work to take the capability out as it is to put it in. FM radio capability isn't some high dollar high end feature for a cell phone. Given how it is a feature on the cheapest cell phones, removing it is more money grab than some hardship.

    So yes, mandate it. Just like we mandate every other aspect of the RF spectrum and control what can access it, who can broadcast on it, etc.
  • Reply 152 of 153
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 4,343administrator
    nht said:
    Sorry, you can delete if you like.  It's just annoying when folks want to mandate Apple do something that likely doesn't help much but will make iPhones worse battery and size wise.
    We're good right now. I don't want it to escalate.
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