Mac sales continue decline in Q3, Apple drops to 5th place worldwide

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  • Reply 41 of 105
    GG1GG1 Posts: 168member
    MacPro said:
    darkvader said:
    Soli said:
    Remember when Acer was rising up through the unit sales ranks with shitty* netbooks?

    * I know, that's redundant.

    dysamoria said:
    This is not a surprise, since their software is atrophying. I mean, with the way they gutted iWork, what's the use in having a mac if you're just going to put a crippled MS Office installation on it? Apple have de-professionalized every product they have. They're addicted to Wall Street BS and repeat iPhone sales. They have no vision, no leadership that isn't just more tonerhead mindlessness, no sense of useability (slowly killing every bit of usability that drove them up to 2013)... all the compelling excellence that Apple used to be known for has been ditched, replaced with ugly flat, minimalism, bugs that never get fixed, and missing functionality. iPhone was both a critical success for Apple and the lure to follow mindless cart-before-horse business practices that are killing the mac, Mac OS, and every piece of software Apple still has left.
    The Mac HW and macOS have never been better.
    You're a loony.

    They've both been better, the 2012 MacBook Pro was much better than the current touchbar "Pro", the 2012 Mac Pro was much better than the "current" 2013, the 2012 Mac mini was much better than the "current" 2014.  The 2011 MacBook Pro had a maximum of 16GB RAM, and a brand-new MacBook Pro has a maximum of... 16GB RAM.  You can put a 4TB SSD in the 2012, the 2017 maxes out at 2TB.  If you give up the internal optical drive in the 2012, you can put 8TB of SSD in, the 2017 maxes out at - yep, still 2TB.

    And lots of things in Mac OS X haven't been right since 10.6, and it got much uglier with 10.10.  It's not more stable, it's not faster, it's not more usable, the server version is a joke, and we still don't have scroll arrows.

    Nope, you're definitely a loony.
    What a load of codswallop.
    I haven't heard that word in a very long time. Thanks!
    dysamoria
  • Reply 42 of 105
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 1,381member
    nht said:
    He's still living in 1997
    In '97, I was telling people to buy AAPL, as the naysayers were wrong. Now, I'm not so sure anymore.

    What you might be missing, is that back in the old days, the people claiming gloom and doom re: Apple were the 'industry experts' and journalists and people who generally didn't have the first clue about Apple.

    Now, it's the opposite. The 'industry experts' and journalists and people who didn't used to have a clue are too wow'd by AAPL stock prices and the big space-ship complex. It's now (at least some) of the long-time Apple evangelists who are prophesying the doom to come given the trajectory.

    Apple fanboys on the other hand, were around back then, and still are today.
    donjuansunwukongdysamoria
  • Reply 43 of 105
    Kak1 said:
    I have a late 2012 Mac and a 2014 Mac book pro. I will update every 6 six years. 
    Interesting...I have a 2006 original intel iMac 20" (about to recycle) and a 2009 13" MacBookPro (also about to recycle). both devices are still running perfectly. I just bought a 2017 rose gold MacBook. I amazed at the speed of opening apps and everything else about it! I think it's the best MacBook ever. Maybe even the best laptop ever, all things considered. 

    However, I can't help thinking that I wish I had bought the rose gold iPad Pro plus AppleKeyboard instead. I can't help thinking that the iPadPro and iOS is indeed the future of computing. Oh well.

    Best
    brucemc
  • Reply 44 of 105
    dewme said:
    I wouldn't draw any special significance from these numbers. My nearly 5-year-old iMac is as speedy, functional, and pleasurable to use as it was the day I bought it. The OSX/macOS releases that Apple has shipped over the past few years have neither placed undue burden on nor diminished the performance or fitness-for-task of my 5-year-old iMac in any way. I'm sure that there are some newer macOS applications out there that would potentially run faster on newer Macs, or subtle new features I'm missing out on, but nothing I throw at any of my current Macs causes them to break a sweat in any way.  The same situation applies to all Macs in my home. They all continue to do absolutely everything I ask of them and the newer macOS releases have not degraded their performance in any way that affects me. Heck, even my old 2011 MacBook Air (i7) is still a great little computer with High Sierra. Some of the things Apple has done with iCloud have actually unburdened storage limitations on older Macs and they are better than ever.

    Pretty much all Mac hardware products released in the past 5 years are excellent platforms for running Apple's latest desktop operating system, High Sierra. Until Apple does something with macOS that results in a discernible negative impact or loss of functionality why would I ever consider purchasing a new Mac? Touch Bar is cool but not a must-have. Desktop computers are a very mature product category and if you buy quality products like Apple's they are going to last a long time. Is this good for Apple's bottom line? Absolutely! It inspires confidence and leads to customer and brand loyalty that follows Apple into its forays into new product categories. 

    Apple under Tim Cook has always played the big-picture long game and not concerned itself with product maturity and cannibalization factors that lesser companies get all bent out of shape worrying about. They are also not artificially sacrificing the value of current product lines by forcing obsolescence through feature creep and bloat. And time and time again, just when the self important analysts are congratulating themselves on predicting the demise of an Apple product line Apple surprises and reinvigorates the product line with something new and unexpected, e.g., iPad Pro, to keep the product line fresh in a significant way. the Mac product line will take some big new leaps at some point, but only when it makes sense to move in a new direction. In the meantime, the current offerings are making a lot of mainstream customers very happy with their Apple product investments. 

    Very well said. I agree with everything. :)
    brucemcjony0
  • Reply 45 of 105
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 3,629member
    dysamoria said:
    This is not a surprise, since their software is atrophying. I mean, with the way they gutted iWork, what's the use in having a mac if you're just going to put a crippled MS Office installation on it? Apple have de-professionalized every product they have. They're addicted to Wall Street BS and repeat iPhone sales. They have no vision, no leadership that isn't just more tonerhead mindlessness, no sense of useability (slowly killing every bit of usability that drove them up to 2013)... all the compelling excellence that Apple used to be known for has been ditched, replaced with ugly flat, minimalism, bugs that never get fixed, and missing functionality. iPhone was both a critical success for Apple and the lure to follow mindless cart-before-horse business practices that are killing the mac, Mac OS, and every piece of software Apple still has left.
    Attention-seeking much?

    But applause for the rest of thread for bringing the word “codswallop” back into the light. 

    :smiley: 
    StrangeDays
  • Reply 46 of 105
    hattighattig Posts: 814member
    Kak1 said:
    I have a late 2012 Mac and a 2014 Mac book pro. I will update every 6 six years. 
    You may find even that is optimistic. Apple's systems (unless you get unlucky, and if its a common fault you will get a free fix anyway) just keep on working.

    I'm still on the old 2011 MacBook Pro as a personal laptop, which is six years old now. It's still fine for my personal uses. It did get a free new motherboard a couple of years ago for the motherboard problem, and I added an SSD, 

    Sure, my work laptop is a 2015 MacBook Pro, but I don't pay for that. It's not significantly faster because of Intel's interminably slow CPU upgrade cycle, and drive to reduce power rather than increase performance. Screen is great of course.

    Intel 6-cores will be a option for the next upgrade hopefully. That might be worth a punt, the combined cumulative upgrade feels worthwhile.

    I just want a cheap desktop Mac, and there isn't an option that isn't an iMac. Mac Mini is not what I want, certainly not with the update cycle it has.
    edited October 2017 brucemc
  • Reply 47 of 105
    entropysentropys Posts: 1,054member
    eightzero said:
    Pretty sure the profitability of their shipments is most important to Apple.

    "Sure, we lose money on every PC. But we make it up in the volume."
    I am sure that is strategy of the majority of the non-samsung android OEMs, but if think in Apple's case it is more:

    "we are prepared to sell fewer products at higher margins to make a bigger profit in a saturated, mature market"

    I fear, however, that Apple has the settings wrong, that there is still plenty of innovation opportunity in PCs, and the neg experience from the price enema in Apple's oldest fan and evangelist base will eventually cause flow on erosion in their current iOS market where the real money is made.

    HP has moved into selling higher spec products, and I am sure that is why it has been rewarded with growth in its markets.  The Spectre x360 is what the MBA should be by now.  Sure, HP has a lot of crappy machines, but is it the crappy machine market growing, or is it the premium market targeted by spectres and elitebooks?
    edited October 2017
  • Reply 48 of 105
    pakittpakitt Posts: 139member
    Mac machines tend to be expensive. The Air product line is old-ish, the Mini too, the MacPro is super old and the new iMac Pro is not coming out yet, the MacBook is fantastic but costs a lot.
    Facing the prices they charge for their machines, a lot of people prefer to keep their iPhone, where you can get some more affordable models, (e.g. iPhone 6S and SE) and that they actually use day and night, and save money in buying a quite able PC laptop for weekly use. Because you can do a lot on iPhones, etc - but not *everything*.
    Moreover, unless you need to do something very specific, a laptop/desktop is quite an overkill to browse the web, emails, messaging, general pic admin and editing and Facebook. Social media is by definition mobile nowadays. You need a phone for that, not a fixed/portable machine.
    iPads also have the bigger screen and the power (see the iPad Pro).
    As for the Works argument, Office is available for the Mac, as well as Libreoffice & Co. 
    iCloud and other Cloud services don't require you to have TB of storage with you on your laptop/Mac. Everything is either streamed (video, music) or stored (photos, docs).
    For the scientific community, creators, designers, etc  the Mac is probably the best choice. Unless you are a geek, and make a Hackintosh for a fraction of the price (and all the RAM you want).

    I have an iMac 27" (with a failed 1TB drive, so much for Apple's quality) and I am glad I don't have to upgrade - I wouldn't know what to get. Probably the cheapest option connected to a non Apple display (e.g. Mini).
  • Reply 49 of 105
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,042member
    eightzero said:
    Pretty sure the profitability of their shipments is most important to Apple.

    "Sure, we lose money on every PC. But we make it up in the volume."
    This is the general opinion here, and while Apple dont chase the lower market recklessly, and wont sacrifice profitability, they do in fact care about market share. Apple would like to be 20-30% or more of both the mobile and desktop OS markets. 
  • Reply 50 of 105
    asdasdasdasd Posts: 5,042member
    That said, given how long lifed Apples stuff is compared to the competition, the installed base is much higher than the headline figures. 
    StrangeDays
  • Reply 51 of 105
    croprcropr Posts: 772member
    Owning a software company, I always had 2 configurations for my developers: a Macbook Pro or an Ubuntu based  Dell XPS.   In terms of OS there is not much difference:  macOS and Ubuntu are both a great OS and both have their strong and weak points. Three years ago the Macbook Pro  was a perfect machine for the development team, but but any longer.
    The difference in price/performance between the 2 platforms has become too big to justify a Macbook Pro. Only for the graphical designers who use Sketch (not available on Ubuntu), the MBP is still a valid option.  Compared to the Dell, the current MBP is much more expensive, and has no 32 GB RAM option.  In return for this high price I get a very expensive gimmick called TouchBar, giving no real productivity benefits.  It is time Apple gets its act together wrt Macs
    A sad story.
    sunwukong
  • Reply 52 of 105
    brucemcbrucemc Posts: 1,399member
    cgWerks said:
    nht said:
    He's still living in 1997.
    Apple fanboys on the other hand, were around back then, and still are today.
    Ah yes....fanboys....your credibility = 0
    StrangeDays
  • Reply 53 of 105
    nhtnht Posts: 4,126member
    cropr said:
    Owning a software company, I always had 2 configurations for my developers: a Macbook Pro or an Ubuntu based  Dell XPS.   In terms of OS there is not much difference:  macOS and Ubuntu are both a great OS and both have their strong and weak points. Three years ago the Macbook Pro  was a perfect machine for the development team, but but any longer.
    The difference in price/performance between the 2 platforms has become too big to justify a Macbook Pro. Only for the graphical designers who use Sketch (not available on Ubuntu), the MBP is still a valid option.  Compared to the Dell, the current MBP is much more expensive, and has no 32 GB RAM option.  In return for this high price I get a very expensive gimmick called TouchBar, giving no real productivity benefits.  It is time Apple gets its act together wrt Macs
    A sad story.
    Most dev shops buy iMacs because at the end of the day developing on 15" screens suck.

    So both the Dell and MBP are sub-optimal machines for your task.

    The TCO for Ubuntu is higher than MacOS and every moment your devs are playing Linux IT support they aren't doing billable work.

    Don't tell me Ubuntu LTS doesn't break.  I use it nearly every day and over the years I've burned a lot more time futzing around fixing Ubuntu than fixing MacOS.  It breaks less now than before but that's not saying much.

    Plus there are very few things you can't do with 16GB as a developer and some of those that have been deemed "required" by idiots is because their devops suck and they try to run 18 VMs on a laptop.  Most competent shops have devops support that will have multiple dev strings to test with so all you need is a couple docker instances for the components you're working on.  If you need one more string then provisioning one on AWS is no big fuss.

    Finally, the touch bar is nice when the apps support it as more and more are doing but it doesn't matter because devs prefer whatever keyboards they personally like in front of one huge or 2-3 medium sized monitors.

    For developing at home they can always ssh in from one their personal machines at home. Very few won't have a decent personal rig with a large display and high speed internet.

    For travel, a couple MBPs for a travel pool work well.

    But whatever.  It's your company...it's to everyone else's advantage (except your customers) if your devops is stuck in the early 2000s.
    StrangeDaysjony0
  • Reply 54 of 105
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 16,887member
    "While there were signs of stabilization in the PC industry in key regions, including EMEA, Japan and Latin America, the relatively stable results were offset by the U.S. market, which saw a 10 percent year-over-year decline in part because of a very weak back-to-school sales season," said Mika Kitagawa, principal analyst at Gartner. 


    Yeah, that's the problem. :*   It can't be that many people just don't need a laptop or desktop anymore.  Probably 90% of non-employment tasks are done on tablets and smartphones.  I rarely even use my home Mac anymore (and older MacBook).  I use it to print things.  I have one at work, as well as a Windows laptop (piece of shit), but outside of that, I don't need a new MacBook every 2-3 years anymore.  E-mail, browsing, games, messaging, and everything outside of Excel and Word is done on a smart device.  Gee, Mr. Kitagawa, do you think that might explain the overall decline in the PC market? 

    Back to school season.  Jesus Christ.  

  • Reply 55 of 105
    wizard69 said:
    dysamoria said:
    This is not a surprise, since their software is atrophying. I mean, with the way they gutted iWork, what's the use in having a mac if you're just going to put a crippled MS Office installation on it? Apple have de-professionalized every product they have. They're addicted to Wall Street BS and repeat iPhone sales. They have no vision, no leadership that isn't just more tonerhead mindlessness, no sense of useability (slowly killing every bit of usability that drove them up to 2013)... all the compelling excellence that Apple used to be known for has been ditched, replaced with ugly flat, minimalism, bugs that never get fixed, and missing functionality. iPhone was both a critical success for Apple and the lure to follow mindless cart-before-horse business practices that are killing the mac, Mac OS, and every piece of software Apple still has left.
    Not to mention what new Macs in June?????   I've yet to see a new Mac Mini or a better designed replacement for that platform, no new Mac Pro's, the iMac have been a joke for he last couple of years so All they have left is the laptops that haven't innovated one bit in years.   I still wonder why Apple has yet to release a laptop with a built in cellular modem.   I''m also extremely frustrated by Apple support of SSD expansion in any of its Macs including the laptops.   Also no ARM based Mac yet even thought it is pretty obvious such a machine would be a big win for Apple.   

    What Apple has done with the Mac is very similar to how it has destroyed other products due to laziness and a demand for sales beyond what the market will allow.   one example here is the terrible upgrades iPad mini got and as a result accelerated declining sales instead of beefing them up which is what an upgrade should do.   The Mac <Mini is another example, no credible upgrades and no innovation has lead to accelerated declining sales.    It is no surprise that most of Apples sales are going to the laptop line up as that is the only place you can buy a modern machine.

    Something is rotten inside of Apple and frankly it has driven customers away for no good reason.   You really have to ask, how many companies out there survive routinely pissing off customers.    
    Good grief what out of touch, techie nonsense. You’re waiting for macs with cellular modems and because they aren’t doing that stupid idea apple is “lazy”. Sorry man but you are clearly out of touch with what the market actually wants. 

    And claimimg the imac isn’t innovative is rich considering they invented the 5k display. What are these missing innovations from other PC makers, who did absolutely nothing with PCs for decades?
    edited October 2017
  • Reply 56 of 105

    wizard69 said:

    eightzero said:
    Pretty sure the profitability of their shipments is most important to Apple.

    "Sure, we lose money on every PC. But we make it up in the volume."
    You will never make a profit on hardware that never gets updated and never shows any innovation.     
    Yeah which is why neither of those statements is true about apple. But yeah any year now, apple doomed. uh huh. 
  • Reply 57 of 105

    wizard69 said:

    Soli said:
    Remember when Acer was rising up through the unit sales ranks with shitty* netbooks?

    * I know, that's redundant.

    dysamoria said:
    This is not a surprise, since their software is atrophying. I mean, with the way they gutted iWork, what's the use in having a mac if you're just going to put a crippled MS Office installation on it? Apple have de-professionalized every product they have. They're addicted to Wall Street BS and repeat iPhone sales. They have no vision, no leadership that isn't just more tonerhead mindlessness, no sense of useability (slowly killing every bit of usability that drove them up to 2013)... all the compelling excellence that Apple used to be known for has been ditched, replaced with ugly flat, minimalism, bugs that never get fixed, and missing functionality. iPhone was both a critical success for Apple and the lure to follow mindless cart-before-horse business practices that are killing the mac, Mac OS, and every piece of software Apple still has left.
    The Mac HW and macOS have never been better.
    While Mac OS is pretty good, you are way out of bounds when it comes to Mac Hardware.   Some of the models are now decades old, some getting no real updates in years and you try to pass off the hardware as never being better????   Seriously?    

    A more accurate statement would be to say that Mac Hardware is pathetic and demonstrates a complete lack of interest on Apples part.
    Nah that’s just a hater narrative. My Apple gear has never been better and there is no way i’m hell I’d go back to machines from years prior. None. So are you running a 5 year old laptop? A 10 year old desktop? Right. 
  • Reply 58 of 105
    SoliSoli Posts: 7,380member
    sdw2001 said:
    "While there were signs of stabilization in the PC industry in key regions, including EMEA, Japan and Latin America, the relatively stable results were offset by the U.S. market, which saw a 10 percent year-over-year decline in part because of a very weak back-to-school sales season," said Mika Kitagawa, principal analyst at Gartner. 

    Yeah, that's the problem. :*   It can't be that many people just don't need a laptop or desktop anymore.  Probably 90% of non-employment tasks are done on tablets and smartphones.  I rarely even use my home Mac anymore (and older MacBook).  I use it to print things.  I have one at work, as well as a Windows laptop (piece of shit), but outside of that, I don't need a new MacBook every 2-3 years anymore.  E-mail, browsing, games, messaging, and everything outside of Excel and Word is done on a smart device.  Gee, Mr. Kitagawa, do you think that might explain the overall decline in the PC market? 

    Back to school season.  Jesus Christ.  

    My nephew just went off to college this semester. I offered to buy him the top of the link MBP or iMac (if he wanted) to get him through the next 4 years of school, and then a new one if he choose to get his masters. He said the iPad was fine. This blew my mind. He later found out that he does need a traditional PC and that the iPad and Google Docs won't cut it. It kind of blows my mind, but it's also the sign of the times.
    edited October 2017 dysamoriasdw2001
  • Reply 59 of 105

    wizard69 said:
    To be honest, I think it's the Pro crowd. They waited for so long for hardware updates that they left the platform. I'm in one of the industries with Creative Pro needs, and everyone I know has either built a hackintosh or moved over to PC so they could render files in 1/10 of the time. Some actually left before the desktop hardware grew so embarrassing, because all of the Apple Pro software became very un-"Pro." Now that Apple is paying attention to the Mac hardware and beefing up their software again, it seems way too late, and it's rolling out way too slow. The new Mac Pro rethink is years away and there's no guarantee it will be expandable. Plus, Apple doesn't even make monitors anymore. The people who would have hungrily rushed out for the new Macs this quarter have already moved on — even though they could have finally had some of their needs (somewhat) met. Nonetheless, I'm totally down with the new iMac, and will be getting one very soon... but I'm not a Creative Pro.
    It is far more than the Pro crowd sen though that is significant.   Think about the Mini a very non pro machine, but who in their right mind would pay list price for that machine right now?   It is extremely dated, and hasn't had any visionary updated in decades.    

    The Mac Pro on the other hand should have been refactored into a low cost mid range machine.   Put a multi core processor in their from Intels desktop platform and add one GPU card {with a modern GPU} and sell the thing for $1500 and you would have a winner.   The evil thing here is that if you wanted a desktop machine form Apple you are screwed as the Mini doesn't cut it and the Mac Pro is way too expensive for many peoples needs.   Why Apple leaves the Midrange systems market unsatisfied is beyond me.
    Nuts. The imac is the mid level and it’s a kickass machine. I’m a pro software developer and somehow I do so with no trouble and in fact joy. My machine is loaded and is fast. And i’m not alone — this is exactly why they’re expanding imacs with the imac pro line. 

    But to answer your question who would buy a Mini? My dad, an entry level user. It’s fine. You’re just out of touch with normals. 
    edited October 2017 macxpress
  • Reply 60 of 105
    cgWerks said:
    nht said:
    He's still living in 1997
    In '97, I was telling people to buy AAPL, as the naysayers were wrong. Now, I'm not so sure anymore.

    What you might be missing, is that back in the old days, the people claiming gloom and doom re: Apple were the 'industry experts' and journalists and people who generally didn't have the first clue about Apple.

    Now, it's the opposite. The 'industry experts' and journalists and people who didn't used to have a clue are too wow'd by AAPL stock prices and the big space-ship complex. It's now (at least some) of the long-time Apple evangelists who are prophesying the doom to come given the trajectory.

    Apple fanboys on the other hand, were around back then, and still are today.
    Nope. There have always been doomsayers and they’re exactly no different today. There is no concerning “trajectory”, just kickass products year after year. As an enterprise Windows developer I switched to apple gear years ago and I’d never go back to Dells and HPs, they’re garbage. 

    Apple is fine. Normals are buying more and more. The old grumps who want their ultra niche techie gear don’t matter and never have. 
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