Mac sales continue decline in Q3, Apple drops to 5th place worldwide

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  • Reply 81 of 105
    cgWerks said:
    StrangeDays said:
    Nuts. The imac is the mid level and it’s a kickass machine. I’m a pro software developer and somehow I do so with no trouble and in fact joy. My machine is loaded and is fast. And i’m not alone — this is exactly why they’re expanding imacs with the imac pro line. 

    But to answer your question who would buy a Mini? My dad, an entry level user. It’s fine. You’re just out of touch with normals. 
    The iMac is a nice machine if you want a the dedicated, single-use display it comes with. The Mini should be an iMac w/o the display, but instead it's an un-updated, over-priced little box. It once was a pretty incredible product. There's really no good excuse for Apple not keeping it current.

    StrangeDays said:
    Nope. There have always been doomsayers and they’re exactly no different today. There is no concerning “trajectory”, just kickass products year after year. As an enterprise Windows developer I switched to apple gear years ago and I’d never go back to Dells and HPs, they’re garbage. 

    Apple is fine. Normals are buying more and more. The old grumps who want their ultra niche techie gear don’t matter and never have. 
    Nope. The difference is that the doomsayers of the old days thought Apple was doomed because they weren't following 'tech industry best practices' (i.e.: doing what every other tech company was doing), or didn't get what made Apple unique. Now, Apple is following 'tech industry best practices' (i.e.: doing what every other tech company does) - including the fashion industry - and is rapidly losing what made them unique (i.e.: UX job #1).

    Normals are also more fickle, and we old-grumps are the content creators and people who cared about UX that put Apple on the map.

    StrangeDays said:
    Bummer you can’t afford one but Apple has rarely been about chasing the low end. 
    They went through a more affordable stage which got people interested that previously wouldn't have spent the extra money. Now they've let fame go to their heads and have started raising prices. It's their call, but I'm not sure it's a good move.

    dysamoria said:
    Are you actually referring to end-users and non-tech people as "normals"? Is that a compliment or a pejorative? From prior comments, I've gotten the impression that you think Apple's current usability isn't suffering, so I'm guessing you're not empathizing with the "normals".
    I get the impression that some of the newbies don't even know what UI is anymore. Nor, does it seem, Apple's UI designers (probably because they too are newbies).
    You may think as an old grump content creator that you have some elevated status of expertise when it comes to Apple products, but you don't. You may have been the core customer once, but you aren't now. You're just a guy who wishes Apple made stuff the way you would if you did, but aren't. 

    Apple prices have generally been pretty stagnant, and even lowered. The iPad is $329 -- how on earth can you argue it's getting more expensive? Sure the high-end models are more expensive, but those aren't entry-level. 

    I'm not clear who you believe is a newbie. I've been using Apple gear since the ][, and when it comes to UI I still believe Apple systems are superior to the commercial alternatives. Are they perfect? Don't be silly, nothing is perfect.
    LeBart1968
  • Reply 82 of 105
    dysamoria said:
    What are you even saying? I can barely parse your sentence. Why would I want to backtrack my statement that software has gotten worse? I HAS gotten worse. It went from bad to better, and back to bad again.
    You have to wonder if this person (Soli) just came onboard with the Apple platform in the last few years. It's obvious to anyone paying attention that the software has gotten worse in some aspects. That's why there has been all the discussion around it (hopefully) being a hiccup while Apple transitions and integrates iOS from the previous Mac dominance.
    edited October 2017 dysamoria
  • Reply 83 of 105
    dysamoriadysamoria Posts: 1,549member

    cgWerks said:

    Apple is fine. Normals are buying more and more. The old grumps who want their ultra niche techie gear don’t matter and never have. 
    Nope. The difference is that the doomsayers of the old days thought Apple was doomed because they weren't following 'tech industry best practices' (i.e.: doing what every other tech company was doing), or didn't get what made Apple unique. Now, Apple is following 'tech industry best practices' (i.e.: doing what every other tech company does) - including the fashion industry - and is rapidly losing what made them unique (i.e.: UX job #1).
    Agreed with everything you said, ESPECIALLY that statement I quoted above. I wish I had the clarity of thought to have written it the way you did. It's much better than my verbose ranting. Thanks for speaking up where and when criticism is dangerous for one's "credibility". The echo chamber of Apple support, and Apple's own self-imposed isolation from reality (very different from Jobs' reality distortion field) needs a window opened to let in fresh thought that's not impeded by ego.
    cgWerksavon b7
  • Reply 84 of 105
    cgWerks said:
    StrangeDays said:
    Hmm lesse...

    - Face ID
    - Touch ID
    - 3D Touch
    - True Tone
    - Pro Motion
    - wide color
    - TrueDepth
    - AirPods
    - AirPower
    - Pencil
    - Apple Watch
    - 5k iMac
    - rMBP
    - iMac Pro
    - A11 (entire SoC line)
    - Apple Pay

    ...etc. Apple is killing it. No vision. Give me a break, that list is just off the topic my head. 

    - Face ID (something to benefit Apple... few of us want or need it, some will be inconvenienced by the switch)
    - Touch ID
    - 3D Touch (kind of a poor, though possibly needed UI 'innovation' if you're going to make touch-devices replace desktops... if that's needed/wanted)
    - True Tone
    - Pro Motion
    - wide color
    - TrueDepth
    - AirPods ('cause they removed the standard audio jack... and who cares about potential health concerns?)
    - AirPower (gimmick)
    - Pencil 
    - Apple Watch (a device looking for a use)
    - 5k iMac
    - rMBP
    - iMac Pro
    - A11 (entire SoC line)  (*bingo - here's the big Apple innovation and hope for the future.... in-house chip design)
    - Apple Pay

    But, it's not so much that they aren't innovating at all. It's whether they are working on the right innovations. Even more pertinent, though, are the things they are allowing to lag behind, fall away, or are actually degrading... like the software and UI aspects.
    Your crits betray your ignorance.

    AirPods are needed because the *legacy* audio jack was removed? Uhh, no. You can use any legacy wired headphones with the 7 and later, as well as any BT wireless. And you can use the AirPods on any BT-equipped device. The two are interoperable, but in no way are the AirPods necessary due to the removal of the legacy jack.

    Face ID sucks? Please. You were the same sort of debbie-downer that when Touch ID was announced claimed thieves would be cutting off fingers left and right. All nonsense, of course. This same ignorance is what is panicking you now into saying Face ID is doom.

    AirPower -- adds ability to charge multiple devices at once, something the rest of the industry didn't think to do. If you travel, which I do, this is great.

    Apple Watch -- oh jesus, now I know you're just another troll. I wonder why Apple keeps selling millions and millions of them if none of us have a purpose for it? Apple now makes more from watches than Rolex. Let that sink in. 
  • Reply 85 of 105
    cgWerks said:
    dysamoria said:
    What are you even saying? I can barely parse your sentence. Why would I want to backtrack my statement that software has gotten worse? I HAS gotten worse. It went from bad to better, and back to bad again.
    You have to wonder if this person (Soli) just came onboard with the Apple platform in the last few years. It's obvious to anyone paying attention that the software has gotten worse in some aspects. That's why there has been all the discussion around it (hopefully) being a hiccup while Apple transitions and integrates iOS from the previous Mac dominance.
    Soli is more technical and educated on Apple technical topics than anything I've seen coming from your username. I'll let him speak for himself, but you're old-Apple-fan street cred is garbage so far.
  • Reply 86 of 105
    StrangeDays said:
    You may think as an old grump content creator that you have some elevated status of expertise when it comes to Apple products, but you don't. You may have been the core customer once, but you aren't now. You're just a guy who wishes Apple made stuff the way you would if you did, but aren't. 

    Apple prices have generally been pretty stagnant, and even lowered. The iPad is $329 -- how on earth can you argue it's getting more expensive? Sure the high-end models are more expensive, but those aren't entry-level. 

    I'm not clear who you believe is a newbie. I've been using Apple gear since the ][, and when it comes to UI I still believe Apple systems are superior to the commercial alternatives. Are they perfect? Don't be silly, nothing is perfect.
    Since I've been around the Mac for over 30 years, I *DO* have a bit more experience about how UI works (as well as being a designer!) and it's history in regard to Apple. Yes, I admit I may no longer be Apple's core focus... which is why *I* am complaining, and I also make a case why I think that's a problem for their future success. Maybe Apple thinks chasing after the Kardashians (i.e.: fashion trends), or putting all their eggs in one basket, or ignoring the creators, is good business strategy... I disagree. (And, we won't know for 5-10 years. It takes a while to destroy a top brand.)

    You're talking phones and iPads, which I admit are a pretty good deal on the low end. I'm talking about Macs. The comment was in regard to laptops. For quite some time, Apple had good laptops in the $1000-ish range. Now that's moved to $1500-2000.

    Superior to the commercial alternatives? Sheesh! If they weren't, I wouldn't be here. That's not much of a benchmark. I'm talking in comparison to where they were once at (in terms of UI) not counting new features. Of course, I like new features, but they've also done a bunch of destruction of UI (both following guidelines and in general) and many of their once powerful apps.
    dysamoria
  • Reply 87 of 105
    SoliSoli Posts: 6,158member
    cgWerks said:
    dysamoria said:
    What are you even saying? I can barely parse your sentence. Why would I want to backtrack my statement that software has gotten worse? I HAS gotten worse. It went from bad to better, and back to bad again.
    You have to wonder if this person (Soli) just came onboard with the Apple platform in the last few years. It's obvious to anyone paying attention that the software has gotten worse in some aspects. That's why there has been all the discussion around it (hopefully) being a hiccup while Apple transitions and integrates iOS from the previous Mac dominance.
    Soli is more technical and educated on Apple technical topics than anything I've seen coming from your username. I'll let him speak for himself, but you're old-Apple-fan street cred is garbage so far.
    At some point you just have to give up on people that suggesting that Safari's WebKit engine was faster in 2007 than in 2017, that Touch ID/Apple Pay on the new Macs is worse than nothing having this feature at all, or that instant syncing of data between devices (including unlocking with the Watch) is worse than having to do it manually, or that AirPower's ability to charge three Qi-capacble devices at once and will be submitted to Qi as part of their standards is nothing more than a gimmick. And that's really just the tip of the iceberg of all the changes that have occurred since Mavericks.

    These chuckleheads are even upset that Apple would dare to even dare to change from HFS+ to AFPS, but that's only a recent under the hood SW improvement, which is still optional. If we going to Mavericks we have countless amazing improvements like, 'AirPlay compatible displays such as the Apple TV can be used as an external display," which I use often for presentation," and amazing under the hood benefits like, "OS X Mavericks introducing App Nap, which sleeps apps that are not currently visible, Compressed Memory which is a virtual memory compression system which automatically compresses data from inactive apps when approaching maximum memory capacity, and Timer coalescing which is a feature that enhances energy efficiency by reducing CPU usage by up to 72 percent that allows MacBooks to run for longer periods of time and desktop Macs to run cooler, and supports OpenGL 4.1 Core Profile and OpenCL 1.2."

    Perhaps their issue is because it's when some skeuomorphs, such as the leather texture in Calendar, the legal pad theme of Notes, and the book-like appearance of Contacts, have been removed from the UI, which I recall a lot of asshats whined about.

    Those right there are just a small sampling of the huge benefits in just one annual update just outside his stated parameter of when they believe everything started falling apart for Apple.

    These people aren't Apple fans. They're just not fans of change; but it doesn't matter. They'll finally get comfortable with how things work better today and then in 5–10 years will bitch about how things were better 5–10 years ago without ever realizing they're being hypocrites. I'm absolutely sure they did the same thing back in 2007–2012 about everything sucked then and was better 5–10 before that. That's how people with unresolved aversions to fear deal with things They need professional help but instead they'll lash out at everyone that doesn't agree with their anxiety for changing things for the better… and there's nothing you can I can do for them except them point them in the right direction or ignore them completely. I'm always torn on which is method is best.
    edited October 2017 electrosoft
  • Reply 88 of 105
    dysamoriadysamoria Posts: 1,549member

    dysamoria said:
    slurpy said:
    dysamoria said:
    This is not a surprise, since their software is atrophying. I mean, with the way they gutted iWork, what's the use in having a mac if you're just going to put a crippled MS Office installation on it? Apple have de-professionalized every product they have. They're addicted to Wall Street BS and repeat iPhone sales. They have no vision, no leadership that isn't just more tonerhead mindlessness, no sense of useability (slowly killing every bit of usability that drove them up to 2013)... all the compelling excellence that Apple used to be known for has been ditched, replaced with ugly flat, minimalism, bugs that never get fixed, and missing functionality. iPhone was both a critical success for Apple and the lure to follow mindless cart-before-horse business practices that are killing the mac, Mac OS, and every piece of software Apple still has left.
    Your post is 100% sensationalist trash, and from a quick peruse of your post history, so is everything you ever post. All your posts are completely negative, hyper-vitriolic rants against Apple, cementing the fact that you're nothing but a troll, without a shred of goodwill or objectivity.

    Apple products are today more useful, usable, robust, well-liked, and more successful than anytime in Apple's history.

    Apple's vision is clear, consistent, and deep, unlike their competitors that seem to "reset" their vision every product launch. All that garbage in your post is nothing but your own internal delusions, and desperately trying to fit "evidence" into your toxic and dishonest narrative.

    All this, ignoring the fact that your powers of deduction are pretty horrid. You honestly believe this has ANYTHING to do with "software"? Comparing everything vs Macs is the same comparing all Android shipments against iPhones. A useless comparison because Apple only competes in the high end segment of the market, and not with $150-$600 garbage laptops and computers (that most of these numbers make up) and $50-$200 "smartphones".

    Today's Apple shows no vision (or at least a very Wall Street myopic one)
    Hmm lesse...

    - Face ID
    - Touch ID
    - 3D Touch
    - True Tone
    - Pro Motion
    - wide color
    - TrueDepth
    - AirPods
    - AirPower
    - Pencil
    - Apple Watch
    - 5k iMac
    - rMBP
    - iMac Pro
    - A11 (entire SoC line)
    - Apple Pay

    ...etc. Apple is killing it. No vision. Give me a break, that list is just off the topic my head. 

    Seriously, you’re delusional. I gather that you’re some sort of software trainer with design aspirations, but your righteous entitlement to what you feel Apple owes you is one of the more bizarre positions on this site. 
    Again with the ad hominem attacks. Why not tell me why you think these things demonstrate leadership and vision, rather than throwing a list of Apple marketing terms at me?

    I have the patience to address only ONE of the items on your regurgitated Apple branding list:

    i have the iPad Pro and Apple Pencil. I find the pencil experience to be poor. The tip is too firm and smooth, like the glass with which it is supppsed to make contact. It results in a slippery and unyielding experience, completely unlike any real-world drawing scenario. There are no other Apple Pencil tips to accommodate different preferences in feel. You might think that's fine, but it's not. You're hell-bent on challenging my credibility, with your constant insults and bullying, while not demonstrating any expertise or credibility of your own. You seem to be hostile to trainers and designers, so I guess you're not versed in design, therefore not experienced in drawing, and have nothing to which compare the Apple Pencil.

    Wacom gave me a much better stylus experience years ago with the Wacom drawing tablets. They have different styluses to accommodate different stylus experiences, because different artists use and prefer different mediums. Wacom also has styluses with an eraser end (or whatever tool you want to alternate between). Apple calls their product a "pencil" but doesn't include the most standard features of an actual pencil. Apple didn't bother to explore this product far enough. Worse, the software that is supposed to utilize it is bug-ridden and inconsistent. The sketching function in Notes is pretty good, while the markup and signatures features in Mail for PDFs and such is slow to track and the signatures tend to be missing from the PDF when the person you've mailed the PDFs to opens them to verify your signatures. I use this on a regular basis to validate the hours of a social service worker and this bug has cropped up so often that I don't even bother to use the signature insertion tool anymore; I now just write them in manually, which is slow and painful because the Apple Pencil tracking in this function is pure garbage.

    Vision requires follow-through. All you've done here is list all the brands that Apple markets with questionable-to-poor implementations and half-assed execution. I'm not going to detail the problems with every single one. Do the work yourself or just stop being a bully talking in ignorance of the actual issues.
  • Reply 89 of 105
    StrangeDays said:
    AirPods are needed because the *legacy* audio jack was removed? Uhh, no. You can use any legacy wired headphones with the 7 and later, as well as any BT wireless. And you can use the AirPods on any BT-equipped device. The two are interoperable, but in no way are the AirPods necessary due to the removal of the legacy jack.

    Face ID sucks? Please. You were the same sort of debbie-downer that when Touch ID was announced claimed thieves would be cutting off fingers left and right. All nonsense, of course. This same ignorance is what is panicking you now into saying Face ID is doom.

    AirPower -- adds ability to charge multiple devices at once, something the rest of the industry didn't think to do. If you travel, which I do, this is great.

    Apple Watch -- oh jesus, now I know you're just another troll. I wonder why Apple keeps selling millions and millions of them if none of us have a purpose for it? Apple now makes more from watches than Rolex. Let that sink in. 
    LOL, *legacy* audio jack... that's used on pretty much every audio-outputting device (except the more recent iPhone models) in the world, of which smart-phones are a small category?  You've drank the Kool-aid my friend! Schiller lost a LOT of credibility when he gave that lame excuse. But, yes, the AirPods are nice. I might get some one day, but I don't want them to be my primary way of listening. Health-concerns asides, wireless has other issues.

    Did I say Face ID sucks? No, I just said it wasn't necessary for anyone but Apple. It's going to have a few advantages and a few disadvantages. It's only innovation if you just want to get your tech-geek on. It's no more/less useful than Touch ID. Both are problematic if security is a true concern.

    Wireless charging in general is a gimmick. Who cares? I plug in my phone (device) overnight... easy-peasy... problem solved.

    The Apple Watch isn't necessarily bad, it just isn't all that necessary. Adding cell *finally* makes it a bit more useful, but wearables in general (IMO) are more a fad than some next big product category. It's mostly an expensive accessory (with some vertical applications) to the iPhone.
    dysamoria
  • Reply 90 of 105
    dysamoriadysamoria Posts: 1,549member


    dysamoria said:

    cgWerks said:
    nht said:
    He's still living in 1997
    In '97, I was telling people to buy AAPL, as the naysayers were wrong. Now, I'm not so sure anymore.

    What you might be missing, is that back in the old days, the people claiming gloom and doom re: Apple were the 'industry experts' and journalists and people who generally didn't have the first clue about Apple.

    Now, it's the opposite. The 'industry experts' and journalists and people who didn't used to have a clue are too wow'd by AAPL stock prices and the big space-ship complex. It's now (at least some) of the long-time Apple evangelists who are prophesying the doom to come given the trajectory.

    Apple fanboys on the other hand, were around back then, and still are today.
    Nope. There have always been doomsayers and they’re exactly no different today. There is no concerning “trajectory”, just kickass products year after year. As an enterprise Windows developer I switched to apple gear years ago and I’d never go back to Dells and HPs, they’re garbage. 

    Apple is fine. Normals are buying more and more. The old grumps who want their ultra niche techie gear don’t matter and never have. 
    Are you actually referring to end-users and non-tech people as "normals"? Is that a compliment or a pejorative? From prior comments, I've gotten the impression that you think Apple's current usability isn't suffering, so I'm guessing you're not empathizing with the "normals".
    You make a lot of assumptions, and I’m gathering most of them are poor ones. 

    Normals are non-techies — you know, the majority of Apple’s customer base. They value different things than than techies on rumor sites typically do. 
    Maybe you need to spend some time learning how "normals" experience technology, then. When the original iPhone came out, people who never used a computer before were able to pick it up and learn to use it without struggle. Today, everything that made that possible is missing from the iOS experience. The GUI is unintuitive, hard to look at (especially for people with imperfect eyes, and no, accessibility modes aren't the solution to BAD design). The GUI is hard to read (both in colors and concepts), has conflicting gestures (a long press vs a 3D Touch vs a double-tap, etc, and all the places that swiping behaves differently, such as how the control center interferes with keyboard swiping, etc), the demand to accidentally discover features by looking for hidden functionality, instead of using what's announced to the user via the GUI design....

     I've seen Apple excuse these changes by saying "everyone is used to this stuff now". That's not only uncharitable, it's also false. I've been watching my parents struggle with this stuff. My mother has struggled with Windows for decades. The Mac and iOS (pre-2013) were great for her. iOS 7's redesign has thrown her back to confusion, but at least she started before iOS 7. My dad has started at iOS 9 and it's been painful to see him blaming himself for all of the absolutely BAD UI design that causes him trouble.

    My parents aren't the only examples I'm calling on; they're simply  the most personal. I advised them to use Apple products and Apple is making me feel bad about it (because it makes them feel inferior and helpless, the OPPOSITE of why I originally recommended Apple product!!). The thing is, the alternatives are still worse. If that changes, my recommendations will also change.
    cgWerks
  • Reply 91 of 105
    Soli said:
    At some point you just have to give up on people that suggesting that Safari's WebKit engine was faster in 2007 than in 2017...

    ... AirPower's ability to charge three Qi-capacble devices at once and will be submitted to Qi as part of their standards is nothing more than a gimmick. And that's really just the tip of the iceberg of all the changes that have occurred since Mavericks.
    ...
    These people aren't Apple fans. They're just not fans of change; but it doesn't matter. They'll finally get comfortable with how things work better today and then in 5–10 years will bitch about how things were better 5–10 years ago without ever realizing they're being hypocrites. I'm absolutely sure they did the same thing back in 2007–2012 about everything sucked then and was better 5–10 before that.
    I think you've missed the point. Did I ever say everything Apple has done was bad, or that they've made zero advancement since Mavericks?
    It's about the right/needed innovations and/or the degradation/destruction of UI and software.

    re: Qi ... please explain why I need wireless charging. Or, heck, why I would even want or care about it.

    Why don't you go back and read some of what I was saying 5-10 years ago or more. You've no idea what you're talking about.
    dysamoria
  • Reply 92 of 105
    dysamoriadysamoria Posts: 1,549member
    PS: StrangeDays, is your user ID based on the film Strange Days? I liked that film. Seems I'm one of few.
  • Reply 93 of 105
    dysamoria said:
    ... the demand to accidentally discover features by looking for hidden functionality, instead of using what's announced to the user via the GUI design....

     I've seen Apple excuse these changes by saying "everyone is used to this stuff now". That's not only uncharitable, it's also false.
    Exactly! I think everyone bought that statement, along with the idea that going from skeuomorphic to flat was a matter of getting rid of felt and leather. That's just a bunch of marketing baloney and excuse-making.

    Stripping out UI color, making icons less-descriptive, making 'action' areas less obvious... are just bad design.
    dysamoria
  • Reply 94 of 105
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 817member
    Here's a current example right on the front page of AI:
    http://appleinsider.com/articles/17/10/11/how-to-turn-off-wi-fi-and-bluetooth-on-iphone-and-ipad-in-ios-11

    Multiply this by thousands of rather recent bad UI decisions.
    dysamoria
  • Reply 95 of 105
    dysamoriadysamoria Posts: 1,549member
    cgWerks said:
    Here's a current example right on the front page of AI:
    http://appleinsider.com/articles/17/10/11/how-to-turn-off-wi-fi-and-bluetooth-on-iphone-and-ipad-in-ios-11

    Multiply this by thousands of rather recent bad UI decisions.
    It's beyond bad. It's like the opposite of function.
  • Reply 96 of 105
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 817member
    dysamoria said:
    cgWerks said:
    Here's a current example right on the front page of AI:
    http://appleinsider.com/articles/17/10/11/how-to-turn-off-wi-fi-and-bluetooth-on-iphone-and-ipad-in-ios-11

    Multiply this by thousands of rather recent bad UI decisions.
    It's beyond bad. It's like the opposite of function.
    The problem for the general public, is that it's still better than the alternatives that didn't start from a solid foundation. So, I suppose it's good and impressive if you hadn't come from a place that was superior. And, as others have pointed out, forward progress has been made in other aspects, so it's not like we could simply go back either.

    I think for me, it's going to come to some point where the whole eco-system and experience are no longer worth the premium we pay (where in the past it was well worth it). I just don't know where that point is in terms of software, exactly. What's been pushing me harder has been the hardware... or lack of fitting hardware, even though Apple hardware is pretty darn good, in general.
  • Reply 97 of 105
    LeBart1968LeBart1968 Posts: 14unconfirmed, member
    slurpy said:
    dysamoria said:
    This is not a surprise, since their software is atrophying. I mean, with the way they gutted iWork, what's the use in having a mac if you're just going to put a crippled MS Office installation on it? Apple have de-professionalized every product they have. They're addicted to Wall Street BS and repeat iPhone sales. They have no vision, no leadership that isn't just more tonerhead mindlessness, no sense of useability (slowly killing every bit of usability that drove them up to 2013)... all the compelling excellence that Apple used to be known for has been ditched, replaced with ugly flat, minimalism, bugs that never get fixed, and missing functionality. iPhone was both a critical success for Apple and the lure to follow mindless cart-before-horse business practices that are killing the mac, Mac OS, and every piece of software Apple still has left.
    Your post is 100% sensationalist trash, and from a quick peruse of your post history, so is everything you ever post. All your posts are completely negative, hyper-vitriolic rants against Apple, cementing the fact that you're nothing but a troll, without a shred of goodwill or objectivity.

    Apple products are today more useful, usable, robust, well-liked, and more successful than anytime in Apple's history.

    Apple's vision is clear, consistent, and deep, unlike their competitors that seem to "reset" their vision every product launch. All that garbage in your post is nothing but your own internal delusions, and desperately trying to fit "evidence" into your toxic and dishonest narrative.

    All this, ignoring the fact that your powers of deduction are pretty horrid. You honestly believe this has ANYTHING to do with "software"? Comparing everything vs Macs is the same comparing all Android shipments against iPhones. A useless comparison because Apple only competes in the high end segment of the market, and not with $150-$600 garbage laptops and computers (that most of these numbers make up) and $50-$200 "smartphones".

    I think you have to find the answer somewhere in the middle. The abundance of Aperture, no updates of the Mac Pro made me very upset. These was a clear sign they were leaving the pro pro market (probably because there was not really a lot to get anymore in this business) I was ready to go to the PC-market (after 25 years of loyalty). Once they introduced an iMacPro and soon a new Mac Pro, I felt that they still were committed. Still I can't understand why it took so long. Probably in that time of hesitate, a lot of people already changed to a PC.
    cgWerksdysamoria
  • Reply 98 of 105
    MarvinMarvin Posts: 14,138moderator
    slurpy said:
    dysamoria said:
    This is not a surprise, since their software is atrophying. I mean, with the way they gutted iWork, what's the use in having a mac if you're just going to put a crippled MS Office installation on it? Apple have de-professionalized every product they have. They're addicted to Wall Street BS and repeat iPhone sales. They have no vision, no leadership that isn't just more tonerhead mindlessness, no sense of useability (slowly killing every bit of usability that drove them up to 2013)... all the compelling excellence that Apple used to be known for has been ditched, replaced with ugly flat, minimalism, bugs that never get fixed, and missing functionality. iPhone was both a critical success for Apple and the lure to follow mindless cart-before-horse business practices that are killing the mac, Mac OS, and every piece of software Apple still has left.
    Your post is 100% sensationalist trash, and from a quick peruse of your post history, so is everything you ever post. All your posts are completely negative, hyper-vitriolic rants against Apple, cementing the fact that you're nothing but a troll, without a shred of goodwill or objectivity.

    Apple products are today more useful, usable, robust, well-liked, and more successful than anytime in Apple's history.

    Apple's vision is clear, consistent, and deep, unlike their competitors that seem to "reset" their vision every product launch. All that garbage in your post is nothing but your own internal delusions, and desperately trying to fit "evidence" into your toxic and dishonest narrative.

    All this, ignoring the fact that your powers of deduction are pretty horrid. You honestly believe this has ANYTHING to do with "software"? Comparing everything vs Macs is the same comparing all Android shipments against iPhones. A useless comparison because Apple only competes in the high end segment of the market, and not with $150-$600 garbage laptops and computers (that most of these numbers make up) and $50-$200 "smartphones".

    I think you have to find the answer somewhere in the middle. The abundance of Aperture, no updates of the Mac Pro made me very upset. These was a clear sign they were leaving the pro pro market (probably because there was not really a lot to get anymore in this business) I was ready to go to the PC-market (after 25 years of loyalty). Once they introduced an iMacPro and soon a new Mac Pro, I felt that they still were committed. Still I can't understand why it took so long. Probably in that time of hesitate, a lot of people already changed to a PC.
    Apple's Mac sales over the past few years have been growing and only recently levelled out:

    https://www.statista.com/statistics/263444/sales-of-apple-mac-computers-since-first-quarter-2006/

    Their average selling price also went up. It would decline if the expensive Macs were declining significantly in sales. Laptops make up 80% of their sales so people have been buying the more expensive models. The increase in prices in the Mac line is more likely to have led to a decline in unit volume than the available options.

    The iMac Pro starting at $5k isn't going to turn around high-end sales, nor will a new Mac Pro in late 2018 at the earliest. If the next entry Mac Pro matches the entry spec of the iMac Pro (32GB RAM, 1TB SSD, 8-core), it will also start near $5k, you can spec that out now and it's $4800 without a display.

    What will make the biggest impact on Mac sales is lowering laptop prices e.g a Macbook starting around $999 and dropping the Air and bringing the touchbar MBPs down to the non-touchbar MBP price. Apple dropping their SSD prices will help there. Also having a more affordable 15" model would boost sales as it's the most popular laptop form factor e.g 14"/15" Macbook around $1499. This would be fine for software developers, music production, writers etc as long as there are enough ports, ideally 3 USB C minimum (one is for power).
    edited October 2017 LeBart1968
  • Reply 99 of 105
    cgWerkscgWerks Posts: 817member
    The problem with all the statistics and such, is that I don't get their relevance (outside beancounter type thinking). As the analogy I've used before goes... Ford doesn't say, "Well look here, pickup trucks outsell cars... I guess we'll just put all our eggs in that basket and slow down car development... and heck, that GT40 doesn't make any profit at all, cut that program!"

    I mean, what business with any amount of sense thinks like this? Sure, sometimes you have to cut product lines under certain circumstances, and profitability is a concern - in the big picture!.

    I see ZERO reason for a company of Apple's scale, success, and profitability to go, 'hey Phones outsell all our other products by a wide margin... so let's just slowly shut down the Mac project and put all our eggs in smart-phones.'

    The only other explanation I see for what happened, is that they literally had to shift so many resources to iOS/phones/tablets, that they took them from the Mac (and from what I heard, this is indeed what happened early on), and then finally someone woke up and rather recently, started to replace those resources.
    edited October 2017 dysamoriaLeBart1968
  • Reply 100 of 105
    dysamoriadysamoria Posts: 1,549member
    cgWerks said:
    The problem with all the statistics and such, is that I don't get their relevance (outside beancounter type thinking). As the analogy I've used before goes... Ford doesn't say, "Well look here, pickup trucks outsell cars... I guess we'll just put all our eggs in that basket and slow down car development... and heck, that GT40 doesn't make any profit at all, cut that program!"

    I mean, what business with any amount of sense thinks like this? Sure, sometimes you have to cut product lines under certain circumstances, and profitability is a concern - in the big picture!.

    I see ZERO reason for a company of Apple's scale, success, and profitability to go, 'hey Phones outsell all our other products by a wide margin... so let's just slowly shut down the Mac project and put all our eggs in smart-phones.'

    The only other explanation I see for what happened, is that they literally had to shift so many resources to iOS/phones/tablets, that they took them from the Mac (and from what I heard, this is indeed what happened early on), and then finally someone woke up and rather recently, started to replace those resources.
    That's what seems to have happened, but it also looks like it's just another example of a company abandoning everything else other than the darling. Investment in something that's not the darling product is seen as an expense and a theft from pushing the darling. It's a short-sighted, Wall Street-serving, stock price obsession, and all manner of short-term Masters of Business Administration thinking. It's not what brought me to Apple. It's what chased me away from the rest of the computer industry. Apple was a haven for me. Not anymore. 

    Your point about people only comparing today's Apple to today's competition is spot on. Yes, Apple products are still averaging to superiority over the competition. It used to be much more superior. The architecture that drives today's products were built years ago. It'll take a while for today's short-sighted Apple to wreck the whole system, but they seem to be looking to do that.

    What confounds my ability to tolerate other people's viewpoints is when they proclaim having been here since the Apple II and STILL cannot see that the Apple of today is not as superior to today's competitors as the Apple of, say, 2009. Apple of 2009 had better product than Droid of 2013 (anyone who thinks I'm comparing CPU/GPU, RAM and SSD numbers is missing the point). I can only surmise that these people didn't see the actual quality that I saw; that it was irrelevant to them. I see lots of techie people missing the point on things like GUI design, user-friendliness, and such, so I guess I shouldn't be surprised. 

    More concerning is how the Apple defenders stand firm despite reasonable criticisms, responding with abuse. Is their personal identity wrapped up in Apple's perceived success? They seem to need to bash and bully their opponents, losing track of the actual subject. Even weirder is how they associate expertise and experience with arrogance and elderly irrelevance. Do 40+ year-olds hate on fellow 40+ year-olds for their age?? Is this just more anti-intellectualism?

    i shouldn't be so stunned and confounded by human behavior anymore. The irony of being called a troll by these people... They must be expert-level trolls.
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