A year with MacBook Pro: reviewing Apple's 2017 pro laptop models

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  • Reply 81 of 241
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 2,895member
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Soli said:
    avon b7 said:
    Soli said:
    avon b7 said:
    The Touchbar in itself wasn't a mistake but making it the only option (at a speculated $300 increase) on pricing definitely was.
    How much should it be for a very custom OLED display powered by Apple designed silicon running its own version of OS X built from a stripped down version of watchOS that  also contains a Secure Element and Secure Enclave for Touch ID and Apple Pay?
    Try $0.

    Make a 15" non-TouchBar version. Not everyone needs ANY of that but the Matebook X Pro also manages a 5-second cold boot to login with secure enclave.
    All that technology costs nothing. Got it. Well, at least you're showing your true colors today.
    OK. I will try a second time:

    "The Touchbar in itself wasn't a mistake but making it the only option (at a speculated $300 increase) on pricing definitely was."

    That means I don't care if it cost 1,000€. My problem with the current lineup is that if you want a 15" model you have to swallow the cost - whatever it may be.

    The problem is not how much it costs or how much it is worth. The problem is that if you don't need it, you still have to pay for it. 
    Good news!

    You aren't required to replace your old Mac Book Pro with another Mac!

    Buy yourself the Matebook X Pro!
    Yes, that's why competition is good. You can pick up an excellent machine is more than a match for the current MBP for $700 less.

    There comes a point when paying over the top by that amount makes you reconsider how well spent your money is and whether macOS is worth it. Put global design decisions on top of that (like a problematic keyboard) and you end up asking yourself how seriously Apple has dropped the ball.

    I complained about the wholesale switch to USB-C, not for being anti USB-C in any way whatsoever but because of the decision to leave users with no native connections to devices ALL of them already had. It was simply unnecessary but Apple took a decision for all of its users and they had to jump through that unnecessary hoop if they wanted a new MBP.

    The criticism surrounding that decision was howling bad criticism but some people just have to defend Apple at every turning point and justify the decision somehow, so the 'legacy' port was born and the 'future was here'.

    The truth is that if Apple had released a fatter MBP with standard ports plus USB-C, nobody would have batted an eyelid. NOBODY. The people who defended the change to USB-C only would not have criticised anything about it. So much for 'legacy' and 'the future'.

    Those people are far more interested in defending Apple than objectively looking at the situation.

    So. Wholesale switching to USB-C was unnecessary at the time. Even now the market is still flooded with routers with ethernet, display devices with HDMI and disks with USB 3. That is the reality. The future then was really the present and still is.

    How much did docks cost back then? I remember lots in the $200+ range. Including a port adaptor in the box would have been a great decision considering the ultra premium pricing of the new machines. Not least because the 15" model came with a TouchBar that already added a couple of hundred dollars to the starting price whether you wanted it or not. Two years later and how many people can truly say they are getting their money's worth out of that? At least the 13" model gave you an option without a the TB. 

    So, no adaptor in the box to cover those unnecessary design changes. But wait, Huawei produced their first laptop, included a dock in the box AND made the keyboard spillproof!

    That was last year. Now they have released the Pro version (including a dock and spillproof keyboard again) and crammed a beautiful 14" display into a 13" machine AND found room for discrete graphics AND and USB-A port. Who would have thought that such things would still be necessary almost two years after the new generation MBPs!

    Perhaps if everybody considered the competition, Apple would look beyond its own bellybutton and, you know, compete and perhaps also throw a bone to users like me who remember great machines at competitive prices.

    That said, I happen to be in the group that sees a new machine in the pipe for this year (would they dare pull an iMac con and sell the exact same machine during TWO Xmas seasons? - I doubt it) but it better have a debris proof keyboard and thin bezels for starters.

    Hey, copy Huawei if necessary ;-)

    https://www.thurrott.com/hardware/161876/huawei-matebook-x-pro-review

    I'm in no hurry right now but with the competition pulling so far ahead on almost every level (I think the trackpad is the last remaining bastion for the MBP right now) yes, you have to at least consider other offerings to put Apple's pricing into perspective.



  • Reply 82 of 241
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 3,249member
    In response to the multiple comments about the Touch Bar -- it's value and it's cost:

    That was really Apple's response to the wave of TouchScreen laptops that were beginning to flood the market.  Apple, (I believe) correctly said that touchscreen laptops sucked and refused to make one.  But still, they offered flexibility that was not available on a Mac -- so Apple responded by adding TouchBar in order to provide the flexibility of a touch screen without the hastle.

    However, what I find extremely weird is that Apple is essentially making a touchscreen only laptop when they sell iPads with external keyboards!

    It seems to me that Apple's design philosophy has lacked central vision.  And, I wonder if, perhaps, Sir Ives spent too much time on the space ship?
  • Reply 83 of 241
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 4,456member
    mindwaves said:
    The sad part is other vendors have discovered a way to include a usb-A port on very slim machines, some even slimmer than the MacBook Pro and even to rave reviews. Witness the Huawei Matebook Pro x as an example. Sure it is a MBP ripoff even the name but it does things right besides the webcam. 
    Then all you have to do is buy it and be happy. 
    SoliStrangeDayspscooter63
  • Reply 84 of 241
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 4,456member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Soli said:
    avon b7 said:
    Soli said:
    avon b7 said:
    The Touchbar in itself wasn't a mistake but making it the only option (at a speculated $300 increase) on pricing definitely was.
    How much should it be for a very custom OLED display powered by Apple designed silicon running its own version of OS X built from a stripped down version of watchOS that  also contains a Secure Element and Secure Enclave for Touch ID and Apple Pay?
    Try $0.

    Make a 15" non-TouchBar version. Not everyone needs ANY of that but the Matebook X Pro also manages a 5-second cold boot to login with secure enclave.
    All that technology costs nothing. Got it. Well, at least you're showing your true colors today.
    OK. I will try a second time:

    "The Touchbar in itself wasn't a mistake but making it the only option (at a speculated $300 increase) on pricing definitely was."

    That means I don't care if it cost 1,000€. My problem with the current lineup is that if you want a 15" model you have to swallow the cost - whatever it may be.

    The problem is not how much it costs or how much it is worth. The problem is that if you don't need it, you still have to pay for it. 
    Good news!

    You aren't required to replace your old Mac Book Pro with another Mac!

    Buy yourself the Matebook X Pro!
    Yes, that's why competition is good. You can pick up an excellent machine is more than a match for the current MBP for $700 less.

    There comes a point when paying over the top by that amount makes you reconsider how well spent your money is and whether macOS is worth it. Put global design decisions on top of that (like a problematic keyboard) and you end up asking yourself how seriously Apple has dropped the ball.

    I complained about the wholesale switch to USB-C, not for being anti USB-C in any way whatsoever but because of the decision to leave users with no native connections to devices ALL of them already had. It was simply unnecessary but Apple took a decision for all of its users and they had to jump through that unnecessary hoop if they wanted a new MBP.

    The criticism surrounding that decision was howling bad criticism but some people just have to defend Apple at every turning point and justify the decision somehow, so the 'legacy' port was born and the 'future was here'.

    The truth is that if Apple had released a fatter MBP with standard ports plus USB-C, nobody would have batted an eyelid. NOBODY. The people who defended the change to USB-C only would not have criticised anything about it. So much for 'legacy' and 'the future'.

    Those people are far more interested in defending Apple than objectively looking at the situation.

    So. Wholesale switching to USB-C was unnecessary at the time. Even now the market is still flooded with routers with ethernet, display devices with HDMI and disks with USB 3. That is the reality. The future then was really the present and still is.

    How much did docks cost back then? I remember lots in the $200+ range. Including a port adaptor in the box would have been a great decision considering the ultra premium pricing of the new machines. Not least because the 15" model came with a TouchBar that already added a couple of hundred dollars to the starting price whether you wanted it or not. Two years later and how many people can truly say they are getting their money's worth out of that? At least the 13" model gave you an option without a the TB. 

    So, no adaptor in the box to cover those unnecessary design changes. But wait, Huawei produced their first laptop, included a dock in the box AND made the keyboard spillproof!

    That was last year. Now they have released the Pro version (including a dock and spillproof keyboard again) and crammed a beautiful 14" display into a 13" machine AND found room for discrete graphics AND and USB-A port. Who would have thought that such things would still be necessary almost two years after the new generation MBPs!

    Perhaps if everybody considered the competition, Apple would look beyond its own bellybutton and, you know, compete and perhaps also throw a bone to users like me who remember great machines at competitive prices.

    That said, I happen to be in the group that sees a new machine in the pipe for this year (would they dare pull an iMac con and sell the exact same machine during TWO Xmas seasons? - I doubt it) but it better have a debris proof keyboard and thin bezels for starters.

    Hey, copy Huawei if necessary ;-)

    https://www.thurrott.com/hardware/161876/huawei-matebook-x-pro-review

    I'm in no hurry right now but with the competition pulling so far ahead on almost every level (I think the trackpad is the last remaining bastion for the MBP right now) yes, you have to at least consider other offerings to put Apple's pricing into perspective.



    You’ve been talking about it for ages. Don’t wait a moment longer! Show some backbone and make the jump!
    SoliStrangeDaysfastasleeppscooter63
  • Reply 85 of 241
    tipootipoo Posts: 975member
    "The size is perfect for traveling, it's not too heavy and not too light. The 15-inch MacBook Pro is definitely nice for the extra screen space, but it's a bit more difficult to travel with. "

    My work issued T480S convinced me that 14" is perfect. I find 13" a bit cramped for getting down to real work, and while I love my 15"ers they are a bit unwieldy on a plane or something, while a 14" provides enough space to not feel cramped while it's also easy to travel with. 

    This alleged 13" budget Macbook seems to make things a bit cramped in the 13" space, 12.9", 13" Air, 13" Pro ntb, 13" Pro tb, 13" Budget....The 13" Pro moving to 14" would be nice, particularly if it could keep the same dimensions by shedding bezel. 
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 86 of 241
    Rayz2016Rayz2016 Posts: 4,456member
    In response to the multiple comments about the Touch Bar -- it's value and it's cost:

    That was really Apple's response to the wave of TouchScreen laptops that were beginning to flood the market.  Apple, (I believe) correctly said that touchscreen laptops sucked and refused to make one.  But still, they offered flexibility that was not available on a Mac -- so Apple responded by adding TouchBar in order to provide the flexibility of a touch screen without the hastle.

    However, what I find extremely weird is that Apple is essentially making a touchscreen only laptop when they sell iPads with external keyboards!

    It seems to me that Apple's design philosophy has lacked central vision.  And, I wonder if, perhaps, Sir Ives spent too much time on the space ship?
    Does their design philosophy lack a central vision, or is that perhaps you’re so wrapped up in your own needs that you simply don’t see it?

    I think the problem here is that Apple sees their system (hardware and software) in terms of tasks: what do people use them for? What is the quickest way for this person to get from the start of the task to completion. 

    You see the system differently: how can I get as much tech into this box without having to pay a lot of money for it. 

    No one is right or wrong, but I suspect you should be looking at something like an Alienware of the HP rigs. 


    tmayStrangeDaysfastasleeppscooter63
  • Reply 87 of 241
    ElCapitan said:
    I guess I don't understand why having no USB-A ports is such a big deal.


    The wisdom of using a portable the system for a full swap of ports is beyond naive for a couple of reasons:

    • A portable - particularly used in a professional manner, is likely to encounter a significantly more diverse connection environment than a stationary system, where you might have to connect to a wide variety of screens, projectors, keyboard, pointing devices and storage solutions that exist in non Apple centric businesses and institutions. Even in a transition period Apple centric environments will for a long time be dominated by old connector types. 

    • The lack of a built in ethernet port is a security issue in itself

    • A portable system should be as light as possible, but shedding all previously established ports force the user to carry a number of dongles and even a dock in many cases, adding both weight to the overall load someone have to carry, in addition to adding clutter and inconvenience compared to a system you can plug into directly.

    • All additional connectors and docks adds to the overall cost of the system making the total unattractive to a portion of the potential customers. 
    I think that's a bit overblown. Non-Apple centric businesses? So basically USB-A, VGA and maybe HDMI?

    I've traveled all over the world and spent the 10 years before that managing IT for higher education. In the 10 years while traveling the world I've needed maybe 1 VGA dongle and some cables for my USB-A portable drives. A 2017 MBP wouldn't change much, I'd basically need to swap the USB-A cables for USB-C to USB-B-Mini cables and add two USB-C to USB-A Mini adapters, which are smaller than a thumb drive for the legacy devices. No need to buy new drives or devices.

    I doubt a few ounces is going to make much difference when I'm shedding over a pound going from the 2013 MBP 15" to the 2017 MBP 15". So basically the only extra thing you're carrying is a dongle and two mini adapters, and maybe one more dongle for HDMI. What's that, a few ounces?

    I fail to see how a lack of an "ethernet port" is a security issue. An untrusted network is dangerous regardless. Good luck finding somewhere to plug it in. Back in the early days I hauled an ethernet dongle with me, when WiFi was painfully slow, but it's pretty much redundant now.

    Overall the additional cost is maybe $25 or $30 if you're not buying Apple branded dongles and cables. The dock honestly doesn't count since I use it at home to connect everything over a single Thunderbolt cable . The Dock is really a RAID with extra ports. It's not something you can throw in your laptop bag, nor would I need it on the road.

    RAID/DOCK
    StrangeDays
  • Reply 88 of 241
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 3,719administrator
    We have commenting guidelines for a reason.
  • Reply 89 of 241
    StrangeDaysStrangeDays Posts: 6,036member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Soli said:
    avon b7 said:
    Soli said:
    avon b7 said:
    The Touchbar in itself wasn't a mistake but making it the only option (at a speculated $300 increase) on pricing definitely was.
    How much should it be for a very custom OLED display powered by Apple designed silicon running its own version of OS X built from a stripped down version of watchOS that  also contains a Secure Element and Secure Enclave for Touch ID and Apple Pay?
    Try $0.

    Make a 15" non-TouchBar version. Not everyone needs ANY of that but the Matebook X Pro also manages a 5-second cold boot to login with secure enclave.
    All that technology costs nothing. Got it. Well, at least you're showing your true colors today.
    OK. I will try a second time:

    "The Touchbar in itself wasn't a mistake but making it the only option (at a speculated $300 increase) on pricing definitely was."

    That means I don't care if it cost 1,000€. My problem with the current lineup is that if you want a 15" model you have to swallow the cost - whatever it may be.

    The problem is not how much it costs or how much it is worth. The problem is that if you don't need it, you still have to pay for it. 
    Good news!

    You aren't required to replace your old Mac Book Pro with another Mac!

    Buy yourself the Matebook X Pro!
    Yes, that's why competition is good. You can pick up an excellent machine is more than a match for the current MBP for $700 less.

    There comes a point when paying over the top by that amount makes you reconsider how well spent your money is and whether macOS is worth it. Put global design decisions on top of that (like a problematic keyboard) and you end up asking yourself how seriously Apple has dropped the ball.

    I complained about the wholesale switch to USB-C, not for being anti USB-C in any way whatsoever but because of the decision to leave users with no native connections to devices ALL of them already had. It was simply unnecessary but Apple took a decision for all of its users and they had to jump through that unnecessary hoop if they wanted a new MBP.

    The criticism surrounding that decision was howling bad criticism but some people just have to defend Apple at every turning point and justify the decision somehow, so the 'legacy' port was born and the 'future was here'.

    The truth is that if Apple had released a fatter MBP with standard ports plus USB-C, nobody would have batted an eyelid. NOBODY. The people who defended the change to USB-C only would not have criticised anything about it. So much for 'legacy' and 'the future'.

    Those people are far more interested in defending Apple than objectively looking at the situation.

    So. Wholesale switching to USB-C was unnecessary at the time. Even now the market is still flooded with routers with ethernet, display devices with HDMI and disks with USB 3. That is the reality. The future then was really the present and still is.

    How much did docks cost back then? I remember lots in the $200+ range. Including a port adaptor in the box would have been a great decision considering the ultra premium pricing of the new machines. Not least because the 15" model came with a TouchBar that already added a couple of hundred dollars to the starting price whether you wanted it or not. Two years later and how many people can truly say they are getting their money's worth out of that? At least the 13" model gave you an option without a the TB. 

    So, no adaptor in the box to cover those unnecessary design changes. But wait, Huawei produced their first laptop, included a dock in the box AND made the keyboard spillproof!

    That was last year. Now they have released the Pro version (including a dock and spillproof keyboard again) and crammed a beautiful 14" display into a 13" machine AND found room for discrete graphics AND and USB-A port. Who would have thought that such things would still be necessary almost two years after the new generation MBPs!

    Perhaps if everybody considered the competition, Apple would look beyond its own bellybutton and, you know, compete and perhaps also throw a bone to users like me who remember great machines at competitive prices.

    That said, I happen to be in the group that sees a new machine in the pipe for this year (would they dare pull an iMac con and sell the exact same machine during TWO Xmas seasons? - I doubt it) but it better have a debris proof keyboard and thin bezels for starters.

    Hey, copy Huawei if necessary ;-)

    https://www.thurrott.com/hardware/161876/huawei-matebook-x-pro-review

    I'm in no hurry right now but with the competition pulling so far ahead on almost every level (I think the trackpad is the last remaining bastion for the MBP right now) yes, you have to at least consider other offerings to put Apple's pricing into perspective.
    Nah, the switch to USB-C wasn’t a problem. You’re the same sort of person who complained when macs lead the adoption of USB over serial and parallel ports. Yawn. 

    Also, your knockoff notebook still sucks — doesn’t run macOS. But you don’t even one one of those so I find your championing of a product you don’t own over that of another product you don’t own very telling. 
    edited June 25 Solitmay
  • Reply 90 of 241
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 2,895member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Soli said:
    avon b7 said:
    Soli said:
    avon b7 said:
    The Touchbar in itself wasn't a mistake but making it the only option (at a speculated $300 increase) on pricing definitely was.
    How much should it be for a very custom OLED display powered by Apple designed silicon running its own version of OS X built from a stripped down version of watchOS that  also contains a Secure Element and Secure Enclave for Touch ID and Apple Pay?
    Try $0.

    Make a 15" non-TouchBar version. Not everyone needs ANY of that but the Matebook X Pro also manages a 5-second cold boot to login with secure enclave.
    All that technology costs nothing. Got it. Well, at least you're showing your true colors today.
    OK. I will try a second time:

    "The Touchbar in itself wasn't a mistake but making it the only option (at a speculated $300 increase) on pricing definitely was."

    That means I don't care if it cost 1,000€. My problem with the current lineup is that if you want a 15" model you have to swallow the cost - whatever it may be.

    The problem is not how much it costs or how much it is worth. The problem is that if you don't need it, you still have to pay for it. 
    Good news!

    You aren't required to replace your old Mac Book Pro with another Mac!

    Buy yourself the Matebook X Pro!
    Yes, that's why competition is good. You can pick up an excellent machine is more than a match for the current MBP for $700 less.

    There comes a point when paying over the top by that amount makes you reconsider how well spent your money is and whether macOS is worth it. Put global design decisions on top of that (like a problematic keyboard) and you end up asking yourself how seriously Apple has dropped the ball.

    I complained about the wholesale switch to USB-C, not for being anti USB-C in any way whatsoever but because of the decision to leave users with no native connections to devices ALL of them already had. It was simply unnecessary but Apple took a decision for all of its users and they had to jump through that unnecessary hoop if they wanted a new MBP.

    The criticism surrounding that decision was howling bad criticism but some people just have to defend Apple at every turning point and justify the decision somehow, so the 'legacy' port was born and the 'future was here'.

    The truth is that if Apple had released a fatter MBP with standard ports plus USB-C, nobody would have batted an eyelid. NOBODY. The people who defended the change to USB-C only would not have criticised anything about it. So much for 'legacy' and 'the future'.

    Those people are far more interested in defending Apple than objectively looking at the situation.

    So. Wholesale switching to USB-C was unnecessary at the time. Even now the market is still flooded with routers with ethernet, display devices with HDMI and disks with USB 3. That is the reality. The future then was really the present and still is.

    How much did docks cost back then? I remember lots in the $200+ range. Including a port adaptor in the box would have been a great decision considering the ultra premium pricing of the new machines. Not least because the 15" model came with a TouchBar that already added a couple of hundred dollars to the starting price whether you wanted it or not. Two years later and how many people can truly say they are getting their money's worth out of that? At least the 13" model gave you an option without a the TB. 

    So, no adaptor in the box to cover those unnecessary design changes. But wait, Huawei produced their first laptop, included a dock in the box AND made the keyboard spillproof!

    That was last year. Now they have released the Pro version (including a dock and spillproof keyboard again) and crammed a beautiful 14" display into a 13" machine AND found room for discrete graphics AND and USB-A port. Who would have thought that such things would still be necessary almost two years after the new generation MBPs!

    Perhaps if everybody considered the competition, Apple would look beyond its own bellybutton and, you know, compete and perhaps also throw a bone to users like me who remember great machines at competitive prices.

    That said, I happen to be in the group that sees a new machine in the pipe for this year (would they dare pull an iMac con and sell the exact same machine during TWO Xmas seasons? - I doubt it) but it better have a debris proof keyboard and thin bezels for starters.

    Hey, copy Huawei if necessary ;-)

    https://www.thurrott.com/hardware/161876/huawei-matebook-x-pro-review

    I'm in no hurry right now but with the competition pulling so far ahead on almost every level (I think the trackpad is the last remaining bastion for the MBP right now) yes, you have to at least consider other offerings to put Apple's pricing into perspective.
    Nah, the switch to USB-C wasn’t a problem. You’re the same sort of person who complained when macs lead the adoption of USB over serial and parallel ports. Yawn. 

    Also, your knockoff notebook still sucks — doesn’t run macOS. But you don’t even one one of those so I find your championing of a product you don’t own over that of another product you don’t own very telling. 
    Yes. I complained big time about the iMac situation with regards to USB. That was perhaps the classic way of how NOT to transition from a user perspective. Especially as around that time Apple was using personality cards to address certain needs and the iMac had a mezzanine slot.

    The iMac shipped in Europe, late and expensive with exactly one USB printer available. It was a terrible time.
  • Reply 91 of 241
    SoliSoli Posts: 8,403member
    It’s funny how we went from complaining that Apple uses proprietary port interfaces when there solution was inarguably better during that landscape to complaining when Apple is using universal port interfaces that are better, more versatile, and less costly for users.
    tmayStrangeDaysfastasleep
  • Reply 92 of 241
    KITAKITA Posts: 146member

    Also, your knockoff notebook still sucks — doesn’t run macOS. 
    Jumping in here. Saying something "sucks" because it doesn't run macOS is just nonsense. It can run Windows and Linux, both are perfectly capable operating systems with vast ecosystems.

    Even putting the OS aside, as a piece of hardware, the MateBook X Pro is undoubtedly superior to the 13inch MacBook Pro. It's better is almost every way.




  • Reply 93 of 241
    lorin schultzlorin schultz Posts: 2,373member
    Rayz2016 said:
    [...] I think the problem here is that Apple sees their system (hardware and software) in terms of tasks: what do people use them for? What is the quickest way for this person to get from the start of the task to completion. 
    That is an excellent observation. The difference between you and me is that I come away with exactly the opposite conclusion -- after having spent a couple years working with a touchscreen computer and a year-and-a-half with a Touch Bar Mac, I think a touch screen better satisfies that particular criterion.

    There will be cases in which the Touch Bar will be a better solution, but a touch screen is faster and more intuitive much more often. Instead of having to look away from the screen to identify a target, I simply point where I'm already looking. Further, I am not at the mercy of the developer to decide whether or not they want to implement access to particular control on the Touch Bar (or, as in the case of Avid, to not to use it at all), *I* can decide whether a particular action is best accomplished with the keyboard, a pointing device, or a screen touch.

    I tend to be quite adaptable to new interfaces and workflows, so to me it's telling that I quite frequently touch the screen and but almost never use the Touch Bar. It's a great proof of concept, but in practice I find it less useful than existing alternatives.
  • Reply 94 of 241
    lorin schultzlorin schultz Posts: 2,373member
    MplsP said:
    [...] With the exception of the syncophants and apologists here, NObody I’ve talked to is happy that MagSafe is gone. 
    Now you know two people. Both @Soli and I are company agnostic -- we buy Apple products when they're the best choice for our needs and don't when they're not, and feel no personal stake in how others perceive Apple -- and we both prefer power via USB-C over MagSafe. When the connector wears out I can replace a comparatively inexpensive cable instead of the whole power supply, I can use sources of power other than the one Apple provides, including external batteries, I can connect it on whichever side happens to be handy at the moment, and I gained all that without giving up the protection of a connector that pops out when the dogs trip over the cable.

    MplsP said:
    They do need a USB A port to use the peripherals that they already own, though. 
    I didn't. I needed to replace the cables that attach to the peripherals I already own. It cost about $50-100 to replace a handful of USB-A-to-whatever cables with a handful of USB-C-to-whatever cables. I wound up with Lightning, two flavours of micro-USB2, micro-USB3, and an ethernet adapter I never use. The fact that my computer has no USB-A ports never enters my consciousness.

    Wait, that's not completely true. The one and only legitimate continuing pain in the pattotie is other people's thumb drives. I carry an A-to-C adaptor for that.
    SoliStrangeDays
  • Reply 95 of 241
    tmaytmay Posts: 3,245member
    avon b7 said:
    tmay said:
    avon b7 said:
    Soli said:
    avon b7 said:
    Soli said:
    avon b7 said:
    The Touchbar in itself wasn't a mistake but making it the only option (at a speculated $300 increase) on pricing definitely was.
    How much should it be for a very custom OLED display powered by Apple designed silicon running its own version of OS X built from a stripped down version of watchOS that  also contains a Secure Element and Secure Enclave for Touch ID and Apple Pay?
    Try $0.

    Make a 15" non-TouchBar version. Not everyone needs ANY of that but the Matebook X Pro also manages a 5-second cold boot to login with secure enclave.
    All that technology costs nothing. Got it. Well, at least you're showing your true colors today.
    OK. I will try a second time:

    "The Touchbar in itself wasn't a mistake but making it the only option (at a speculated $300 increase) on pricing definitely was."

    That means I don't care if it cost 1,000€. My problem with the current lineup is that if you want a 15" model you have to swallow the cost - whatever it may be.

    The problem is not how much it costs or how much it is worth. The problem is that if you don't need it, you still have to pay for it. 
    Good news!

    You aren't required to replace your old Mac Book Pro with another Mac!

    Buy yourself the Matebook X Pro!
    Yes, that's why competition is good. You can pick up an excellent machine is more than a match for the current MBP for $700 less.

    There comes a point when paying over the top by that amount makes you reconsider how well spent your money is and whether macOS is worth it. Put global design decisions on top of that (like a problematic keyboard) and you end up asking yourself how seriously Apple has dropped the ball.

    I complained about the wholesale switch to USB-C, not for being anti USB-C in any way whatsoever but because of the decision to leave users with no native connections to devices ALL of them already had. It was simply unnecessary but Apple took a decision for all of its users and they had to jump through that unnecessary hoop if they wanted a new MBP.

    The criticism surrounding that decision was howling bad criticism but some people just have to defend Apple at every turning point and justify the decision somehow, so the 'legacy' port was born and the 'future was here'.

    The truth is that if Apple had released a fatter MBP with standard ports plus USB-C, nobody would have batted an eyelid. NOBODY. The people who defended the change to USB-C only would not have criticised anything about it. So much for 'legacy' and 'the future'.

    Those people are far more interested in defending Apple than objectively looking at the situation.

    So. Wholesale switching to USB-C was unnecessary at the time. Even now the market is still flooded with routers with ethernet, display devices with HDMI and disks with USB 3. That is the reality. The future then was really the present and still is.

    How much did docks cost back then? I remember lots in the $200+ range. Including a port adaptor in the box would have been a great decision considering the ultra premium pricing of the new machines. Not least because the 15" model came with a TouchBar that already added a couple of hundred dollars to the starting price whether you wanted it or not. Two years later and how many people can truly say they are getting their money's worth out of that? At least the 13" model gave you an option without a the TB. 

    So, no adaptor in the box to cover those unnecessary design changes. But wait, Huawei produced their first laptop, included a dock in the box AND made the keyboard spillproof!

    That was last year. Now they have released the Pro version (including a dock and spillproof keyboard again) and crammed a beautiful 14" display into a 13" machine AND found room for discrete graphics AND and USB-A port. Who would have thought that such things would still be necessary almost two years after the new generation MBPs!

    Perhaps if everybody considered the competition, Apple would look beyond its own bellybutton and, you know, compete and perhaps also throw a bone to users like me who remember great machines at competitive prices.

    That said, I happen to be in the group that sees a new machine in the pipe for this year (would they dare pull an iMac con and sell the exact same machine during TWO Xmas seasons? - I doubt it) but it better have a debris proof keyboard and thin bezels for starters.

    Hey, copy Huawei if necessary ;-)

    https://www.thurrott.com/hardware/161876/huawei-matebook-x-pro-review

    I'm in no hurry right now but with the competition pulling so far ahead on almost every level (I think the trackpad is the last remaining bastion for the MBP right now) yes, you have to at least consider other offerings to put Apple's pricing into perspective.
    Nah, the switch to USB-C wasn’t a problem. You’re the same sort of person who complained when macs lead the adoption of USB over serial and parallel ports. Yawn. 

    Also, your knockoff notebook still sucks — doesn’t run macOS. But you don’t even one one of those so I find your championing of a product you don’t own over that of another product you don’t own very telling. 
    According to Avon b7, he owns an older Mac Book Pro running a very old OS so that he has access to Rosetta...

    He also runs older iPad Mini 2 and iPad 4 running older iOS.

    He stated explicitly that he likes the iPads, but dislikes iOS.

    I may have some of those details off, but you get the gist of it.

    Why this guy hangs around here pushing Huawei astounds me. 

    StrangeDaysfastasleeppscooter63Rayz2016
  • Reply 96 of 241
    dm3dm3 Posts: 147member
    As an owner of 2017 15" MacBook Pro w Touch Bar and 2016 13" MacBook Pro without Touch Bar, I generally agree.

    My biggest issue is that the trackpad is TOO LARGE on both. I very often get erroneous cursor jumps because my palm touches the trackpad and I'm suddenly typing in the wrong area. I wish there was a software way to reduce its size or somehow improve its ability to detect erroneous touches.

    Touch Bar is useless. I MUCH prefer the MBP without Touch Bar. Its too much effort to have to look at the touch bar and figure out what the choices are and where they are. Its much too easy to accidentally touch something on the bar without realizing. There's no tactile feedback to know it happened.
  • Reply 97 of 241
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 3,719administrator
    cpsro said:
    cpsro said:
    Tsk, tsk! I must have seriously inflamed the management here... my brief critique of the soft review and expression of my own feelings about the 2017 MBP (which I own) was deleted... and not by me!
    Not that I'm aware of. There are multiple threads going on, regarding essentially the same topic.

    Edit- I see it now. Re-read the commenting guidelines, and eliminate what violates them. The comment was mostly good other than a sentence here or there that broke the rules.
    Why would you double-down on violating the commenting guidelines by repeating what you said that you found was in violation of the commenting guidelines?

    Reviews are just that -- reviews with opinions. That said, I didn't write this one, our video crew did. I write about 50% of my content on AI on my 2016 MPB and don't have the problem. You may also note that I did the research about failure percentages as well.

    And, Apple has no say on what we write, at all. This was also in the commenting guidelines. You may note that the comment that I'm responding to was deleted as well, for... violating the commenting guidelines.

    I am all for respectful disagreement. But, we have rules for a reason, and they will be followed regardless if you're a new user or an AI forum veteran.
    edited June 25
  • Reply 98 of 241
    SoliSoli Posts: 8,403member
    MplsP said:
    [...] With the exception of the syncophants and apologists here, NObody I’ve talked to is happy that MagSafe is gone. 
    Now you know two people. Both @Soli and I are company agnostic -- we buy Apple products when they're the best choice for our needs and don't when they're not, and feel no personal stake in how others perceive Apple -- and we both prefer power via USB-C over MagSafe. When the connector wears out I can replace a comparatively inexpensive cable instead of the whole power supply, I can use sources of power other than the one Apple provides, including external batteries, I can connect it on whichever side happens to be handy at the moment, and I gained all that without giving up the protection of a connector that pops out when the dogs trip over the cable.

    MplsP said:
    They do need a USB A port to use the peripherals that they already own, though. 
    I didn't. I needed to replace the cables that attach to the peripherals I already own. It cost about $50-100 to replace a handful of USB-A-to-whatever cables with a handful of USB-C-to-whatever cables. I wound up with Lightning, two flavours of micro-USB2, micro-USB3, and an ethernet adapter I never use. The fact that my computer has no USB-A ports never enters my consciousness.

    Wait, that's not completely true. The one and only legitimate continuing pain in the pattotie is other people's thumb drives. I carry an A-to-C adaptor for that.
    Adding to that...

    I recently traveled with my Nintnedo Switch and 2017 MBP. It was nice to be able to use my MBP’s PSU and USB-C cable for both. I look forward to a world with more USB-C.

    Beyond that, I look forward to a world with Qi charging. Again, Apple has adopted a universal standard which I’m sure will help usher in faster adoption. My only problem with USB everywhere—whether it’s USB-A or USB-C—is that there’s the potential risk of a security issue since USB transmit data. You can buy adapters specifically to only allow power when using an insecure USB port, but I haven’t jumped on that since I don’t tend to use USB ports, at, say, airports.
    edited June 25 stompy
  • Reply 99 of 241
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 2,895member
    Soli said:
    It’s funny how we went from complaining that Apple uses proprietary port interfaces when there solution was inarguably better during that landscape to complaining when Apple is using universal port interfaces that are better, more versatile, and less costly for users.
    It's not a question of being better but how things are done. I'm all for standardised connection options but Apple has consistently been a headache for its own users.

    Remember how your HFS disks (any flavour) were like a barrier to the 'outside world' and Apple never thought it necessary to provide an HFS ultility for Windows? Users had to fend for themselves. Headache.

    Remember how they dragged their feet on CD recording. Headache.

    Remember how they dragged their feet on USB2.0 support. Headache

    Remember how they insisted on keeping licence fees on FireWire and saw USB2/3 gain traction?

    The original USB 'transition' was far, far worse than the USB-C switch but this last switch is still an unnecessary headache that has nothing to do with the technology itself but the implementation. I wouldn't even have minded if they had included a dock in the box but let's be honest, there are design decisions on these latest MBPs that are very questionable. I'm not against them per se but would prefer to see a more conventional approach, but with the top specs, running alongside the current machines and let users decide. That is the sole reason Huawei put a USB-A port on the MateBook X Pro.

    I'd like to see a reliable keyboard that can be swapped out easily for little cost if necessary. I don't care if the keys 'wobble' a little. I'd never ever heard anyone complain about wobbly keys before the butterfly design anyway.

    I'd like to see repairability at the foundation of the initial design. IMO, getting a battery out of a MBP should have nowhere near the impact on the machine as it does on the current machine.

    I haven't bought a MBP since 2011 and will not touch the current design with a barge pole. The keyboard problem is more likely to appear over time and having a four year period of peace of mind is a nice gesture but simply not enough.  The MBP I am currently using won't take long to double that period.

    Then there are those price tags together with the absolute necessity to bto your needs over the lifetime of the machine from the outset.






    edited June 25
  • Reply 100 of 241
    mcdavemcdave Posts: 1,003member
    Soli said:
    mindwaves said:
    The sad part is other vendors have discovered a way to include a usb-A port on very slim machines, some even slimmer than the MacBook Pro and even to rave reviews. Witness the Huawei Matebook Pro x as an example. Sure it is a MBP ripoff even the name but it does things right besides the webcam. 
    I also agree that it's sad that companies are still only using USB-A when USB-C is the future..
    Skating to where the puck was 20 years ago?
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