Apple's management doesn't want Nvidia support in macOS, and that's a bad sign for the Mac...

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  • Reply 21 of 127
    We already have a solution for this problem.  Apple's bean counter mentality, with regard to the Mac, has simply become un-acceptable.  This year, in lieu of upgrading desktop iMacs, we will be swapping them out for PC workstations with nvidia graphics.  Tim Cook is no Steve Jobs .. He appears to be willing to force Mac users into accepting lower quality hardware to make a miserable few more dollars.  Every single Mac that has failed in our shop over the last few years had an AMD graphics solution.  In addition, the state of AMD drivers on the Mac is pathetic at best - we have code that works great on even Intel graphics but fails on machines with AMD graphics.  We are simply done with this.
    edited January 18 derekcurrielyssophobe
  • Reply 22 of 127
    Apple wears on me these days in ways it never has since the company began. In fact, I was passionate for (nearly) everything Apple until a few years ago, where I am precipitously jaded with management. Ironically, nearly all of management worked with Steve Jobs, thus should share his belief that creating the very best user experience is THE GOAL. Everything else will just work out if Apple succeeds with that. Apple fails on all fronts today, blinded by arrogance over the wild riches it has garnered from its iconic iPhone. Apple cannot even get that right today, and iOS, IMHO, is still a UI nightmare. Yes, I demand excellence, attention to every last detail. That's what Jobs gave customers; and I got it, always eager to pay a small but reasonable premium for the experience. Team Cook does not move me, not even close. In this particular instance, it is petty and short sighted that Apple will not work with Nvidia to support its products on the Mac platform. Why not? There are only two real contenders in the GPU space, and Nvidia is huge. Apple does not have to include Nvidia in their products, but what is the point to (all but) block them out completely other than to create a real disconnect between what customers want and what they can have. Like building nothing but closed boxes, hardware that cannot be readily repaired, updated, and expanded. I'm so close to being done with Apple. I don't even bother to update macOS any more. Too many issues, many related to forced half-baked security measures. I still believe in personal computing, an experience that — I — create based on the tools an open, flexible system provides. And that includes hardening my products. In fact, I demand it, excellence and flexibility. And that's why when I buy a replacement Apple product I buy the cheapest possible. Why? Because I am treading water, patiently waiting for new management that, hopefully, will dare to fly a pirate flag over its campus once again. Viva la revolution. No mas 1984.
  • Reply 23 of 127
    auxioauxio Posts: 2,035member
    TEAMSWITCHER whined:
    we have code that works great on even Intel graphics but fails on machines with AMD graphics.  We are simply done with this.
    The stench of vested interest/paid posts is getting intolerable.  Please show this code (if it actually exists).
    sumjuan
  • Reply 24 of 127
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 5,006administrator
    We already have a solution for this problem.  Apple's bean counter mentality, with regard to the Mac, has simply become un-acceptable.  This year, in lieu of upgrading desktop iMacs, we will be swapping them out for PC workstations with nvidia graphics.  Tim Cook is no Steve Jobs .. He appears to be willing to force Mac users into accepting lower quality hardware to make a miserable few more dollars.  Every single Mac that has failed in our shop over the last few years had an AMD graphics solution.  In addition, the state of AMD drivers on the Mac is pathetic at best - we have code that works great on even Intel graphics but fails on machines with AMD graphics.  We are simply done with this.
    As opposed to what? This is the same, logically, as saying that every Mac that's failed in your shop over the last few years had an Intel processor.
    edited January 18 n2itivguyroundaboutnowfastasleep
  • Reply 25 of 127
    Now is the time to put pressure on Apple to allow Nvidia to create drivers for Mohave. 
    After they report earnings on the 29th, they will have to have a clearer roadmap of what is going to happen this year in regards to products and services. 

    I always thought it was a mistake to only focus on iPhone since you don’t put all your eggs in one basket. The Mac market may not be as lucrative as iPhone, but I’m surprised they never had a contingency plan if the whole smartphone market plateaued. 

    Sure they talk about services making up the difference, but I read a good article showing that services won’t be as profitable as the lost sales of iPhones. 

    This is the first time I have seen a little panic in Apple’s behavior. They didn’t predict that the Xs and XR would not sell as well as they thought, and they surely didn’t predict that they would be replacing 11 million iPhone batteries in 2018. That was something that they should have factored correctly.  They predicted only 1-2 million batteries would have been replaced. 

    So if there ever is a time that you have Apple’s attention, it’s now.  Let Apple know that the Mac is still very much a viable market and they can make up for years of neglect if they work fast. I know there are a lot of people who have been waiting for a Mac good enough to upgrade to and taking care of them can boost the bottom line. 
     You have to pull back a bit.  First, it's part of the fake news out there that Apple PREDICTED only 1 to 2 million batteries would be replaced. What Gruber reported Tim Cook said was that they NORMALLY replace that many in a year.  Cook said it was higher than anticipated, but he never said what they guesstimated it would be and certainly they knew many millions more than normal would replace their batteries.  

    Second, Apple hasn't ever put "all its eggs in the basket of the iPhone."  To cite just one example, Apple announced a few years ago that services was going to be a major revenue driver.  Since then it has become a Fortune 100 company by size and is growing at a huge rate, heading toward $50 BILLION dollars in revenue next year.  Most  people don't realize that Apple Services now dwarfs Facebook's ENTIRE revenue.  

    Apple and other major companies don't have "contingency plans"  of the sort you are suggesting. You can't develop products that take several years to get to market that way.  They have a strategic development plan that is constantly being adjusted.  That's why Apple is spending over a BILLION dollars every month on R and D-" The latest MacBooks, the Mini, Apple Watch, iPad, EarPods, Airpower, new pencil, Augmented Reality glasses, etc., are all part of their "contingency plan."
    edited January 18 n2itivguyroundaboutnowfastasleepsumjuan
  • Reply 26 of 127
    I wonder how much of this is a stalemate over CUDA support. Possibly Apple won't sign NVIDIA's CUDA drivers, or some nonsense like that.
    derekcurrielyssophobe
  • Reply 27 of 127
    We already have a solution for this problem.  Apple's bean counter mentality, with regard to the Mac, has simply become un-acceptable.  This year, in lieu of upgrading desktop iMacs, we will be swapping them out for PC workstations with nvidia graphics.  Tim Cook is no Steve Jobs .. He appears to be willing to force Mac users into accepting lower quality hardware to make a miserable few more dollars.  Every single Mac that has failed in our shop over the last few years had an AMD graphics solution.  In addition, the state of AMD drivers on the Mac is pathetic at best - we have code that works great on even Intel graphics but fails on machines with AMD graphics.  We are simply done with this.
    As opposed to what? This is the same, logically, as saying that every Mac that's failed in your shop over the last few years had an Intel processor.
    But that is not the case.  We have not had ANY Macs fail that used nvidia graphics or had only Intel Iris Pro graphics - as on the 13" MacBook Pro.  The ONLY commonality of  the failed machines was that they had AMD graphics - and in every case it was the GPU that had failed.   In addition, we are experiencing bizarre WebGL rendering artifacts on macOS machines with AMD graphics - even using the Google Chrome Web Browser.  You can install Windows (using BootCamp) on these same machines and the WebGL rendering artifacts do NOT occur.  Clearly the issue is with BUGGY AMD Graphics drivers for macOS - that Apple has completely failed to address.  The inability to adhere to web standards is a complete DEAL-BREAKER.
    derekcurrie
  • Reply 28 of 127
    As someone who relies on CUDA for my profession, this is extremely disappointing. It's hard to imagine abandoning the Mac after 25+ years, but that's starting to look like a possibility.
    bsbeamer
  • Reply 29 of 127
    We already have a solution for this problem.  Apple's bean counter mentality, with regard to the Mac, has simply become un-acceptable... We are simply done with this.
    Not jumping ship yet, but today I got a Windows 10 Pro license to seriously evaluate moving workload to Windows 10.

    Whatever we have had on macOS server will move to Linux, so that is a load of installations and customers.  Trying to run these things on Macs are becoming untenable given Apple's combination of not communicating with their Pro and Business customers, hardware update cycles that makes the accountants cranky and a price/performance/flexibility level that is stifling. 
  • Reply 30 of 127
    In business, evidence of back room disagreements and contention should never be evident to the public. If this is a matter of patents and licensing fees, then grow up Apple and eat it.

    The Mac used to be the definitive PC on the market and I could easily justify their purchase. Now, in the era of the Mothership and Mac Malaise, I am losing that justification. There has been a consistent series of failures at Apple regarding the Mac over the past three years. The interminable wait for a superior, new Mac Pro leads the parade of failures. The inexplicable failure to support Nvidia as of Mojave is inexcusable.

    Setting aside the office politics, all of this goes to prove my point that Apple has failed to scale as they have grown. The company has no sane reason to let the Mac languish. This is a failure to manage the company, and therefore points directly to the top of management: Tim Cook, Johny Srouji, Dan Riccio, Craig Federighi and Board of Directors.

    Scale Now.

    What Does “Scale” Mean in Business?

    edited January 18
  • Reply 31 of 127
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 5,006administrator
    We already have a solution for this problem.  Apple's bean counter mentality, with regard to the Mac, has simply become un-acceptable.  This year, in lieu of upgrading desktop iMacs, we will be swapping them out for PC workstations with nvidia graphics.  Tim Cook is no Steve Jobs .. He appears to be willing to force Mac users into accepting lower quality hardware to make a miserable few more dollars.  Every single Mac that has failed in our shop over the last few years had an AMD graphics solution.  In addition, the state of AMD drivers on the Mac is pathetic at best - we have code that works great on even Intel graphics but fails on machines with AMD graphics.  We are simply done with this.
    As opposed to what? This is the same, logically, as saying that every Mac that's failed in your shop over the last few years had an Intel processor.
    But that is not the case.  We have not had ANY Macs fail that used nvidia graphics or had only Intel Iris Pro graphics - as on the 13" MacBook Pro.  The ONLY commonality of  the failed machines was that they had AMD graphics - and in every case it was the GPU that had failed.   In addition, we are experiencing bizarre WebGL rendering artifacts on macOS machines with AMD graphics - even using the Google Chrome Web Browser.  You can install Windows (using BootCamp) on these same machines and the WebGL rendering artifacts do NOT occur.  Clearly the issue is with BUGGY AMD Graphics drivers for macOS - that Apple has completely failed to address.  The inability to adhere to web standards is a complete DEAL-BREAKER.
    Driver issues are a different matter, and I don’t disagree with you there. However, the service data we have doesn’t bear out your presumption that the AMD GPU is failing at a high rate.

    I’m not saying that it isn’t happening to you, though. It just isn’t a sign of anything beyond your own use case.
    edited January 18 muthuk_vanalingamroundaboutnowfastasleep
  • Reply 32 of 127
    Apple must have something under their sleeves. Wait until MacPro is out, Apple will surprise us with their own G1 Graphic Card that runs on Metal driver.
    Then how long will everyone have to wait to get their preferred software/game/project running on it?
    ElCapitan
  • Reply 33 of 127
    Where I work 2 out of 4 of our Mac Pro's used in design/production have Nvidia Cards (the ones doing video work) - so this is keeping them from upgrading to Mojave. The Adobe video software like Premiere rendering is much faster with Nvidia cards than with the AMD cards. We had planned on moving those 1080Ti's to eGPU boxes once new Mac Pro's were finally released (if they couldn't be installed directly)
  • Reply 34 of 127

    JohnE said:

    So if there ever is a time that you have Apple’s attention, it’s now.  Let Apple know that the Mac is still very much a viable market and they can make up for years of neglect if they work fast. I know there are a lot of people who have been waiting for a Mac good enough to upgrade to and taking care of them can boost the bottom line. 

    So, how do we let them know in a way where we will be heard? Buying a windows machine isn't going to do it. And then I'm stuck running Windows until Apple finally gets their act together.
    [email protected]

    Be sensible and methodical about what you say. 
    It does work. That is one of the many resources that got Apple to rethink abandoning the display market and retool the Mac Pro which is currently  being re-created. 
    Be careful what you wish for. Apple dropped the Pro ball years ago. It's utter madness for Apple to design, tool for and manufacture for sale such an eccentric computer as what is potentially envisioned here. Heads need banging together.
  • Reply 35 of 127
    Now is the time to put pressure on Apple to allow Nvidia to create drivers for Mohave. 
    After they report earnings on the 29th, they will have to have a clearer roadmap of what is going to happen this year in regards to products and services. 

    I always thought it was a mistake to only focus on iPhone since you don’t put all your eggs in one basket. The Mac market may not be as lucrative as iPhone, but I’m surprised they never had a contingency plan if the whole smartphone market plateaued. 

    Sure they talk about services making up the difference, but I read a good article showing that services won’t be as profitable as the lost sales of iPhones. 

    This is the first time I have seen a little panic in Apple’s behavior. They didn’t predict that the Xs and XR would not sell as well as they thought, and they surely didn’t predict that they would be replacing 11 million iPhone batteries in 2018. That was something that they should have factored correctly.  They predicted only 1-2 million batteries would have been replaced. 

    So if there ever is a time that you have Apple’s attention, it’s now.  Let Apple know that the Mac is still very much a viable market and they can make up for years of neglect if they work fast. I know there are a lot of people who have been waiting for a Mac good enough to upgrade to and taking care of them can boost the bottom line. 
    They may not have predicted it, but 1-2M is the "normal" annual replacement tally and not the prediction for the inexpensive replacement program.
    The fact that Tim does not cite what the expectations were and admits that the program affected upgrading devices is the point I was trying to make.

    They could have easily created a software rollback to remove the throttle and just have iPhones power off unexpectedly. That way the customer could have made a better decision on paying $80 for a battery that could last a little longer or upgrade and not worry about their device for at least 2 years if they purchase AppleCare +. 
  • Reply 36 of 127
    bsbeamer said:
    There are a larger number of people still using MacPro5,1 (or 4,1>5,1) machines for professional use than most immediately assume.  

    Is the number smaller than iPhone user base?  Absolutely.  
    Is the number smaller than the MacBook Pro user base?  Absolutely.

    IF Apple continues down this road and the MacPro7,1 is an immediate "failure" that is so locked up without PCIe port access, soldered memory or SSDs, and lack of ports and expansion (as many think may be the case), there will be a larger exodus from the Apple macOS platform.  

    MANY people stuck with Apple or moved to Apple during the Intel shift that allowed Boot Camp.  These same users are now using Apple hardware and moving back to Windows because their work requires it.  NVIDIA and CUDA is a large part of the video, 3D, animation, and scientific communities.  These were target audiences for Apple at one point.  Shifting these users to Windows is the wrong direction for Apple to be heading.

    The Hackintosh community is a different story.  Some of them did this out of necessity, others just don't want to pay the Apple tax.  Apple could (and maybe should) do more to lock down their macOS software to prevent moving onto non-Apple originating hardware.  The T2/T3/Tx chips seem to be part of that long term plan.

    All this being said - there is absolutely no reason Apple should not straight up allow NVIDIA to release drivers on their own.  Force NVIDIA to have a non-Apple support disclaimer during install if it's a support issue.  Regardless, Apple at minimum owes the professional community an explanation or acknowledgment of the "issue" or to defend their position.  Telling pros that the 7,1 will have PCIe slots (in some fashion) and support GPUs from AMD only would be an answer.  Not the answer many want, but an answer that almost all potential 7,1 purchasers are looking for.
    I joined the Hackintosh refuseniks last year. I have a 6 core I7 running at 4.5Ghz with 64Gb Ram and 12TB of HDD, 4TB of that is SSD. A good second tier Nvidia card drives two 4K screens.
    Runs Lightroom, Photoshop and Topaz like a dream.
    It isn't conneted to the Internet apart from updating the Adobe software so I really don't bother updating it.

  • Reply 37 of 127
    netroxnetrox Posts: 826member
    I remember another PC manufacturer refusing to include nVidia citing that the nVidia people were extremely arrogant and could not tolerate their attitude. It sucked because nVidia is a great techonlogy but its people is what is putting them off.
  • Reply 38 of 127
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 5,006administrator
    Now is the time to put pressure on Apple to allow Nvidia to create drivers for Mohave. 
    After they report earnings on the 29th, they will have to have a clearer roadmap of what is going to happen this year in regards to products and services. 

    I always thought it was a mistake to only focus on iPhone since you don’t put all your eggs in one basket. The Mac market may not be as lucrative as iPhone, but I’m surprised they never had a contingency plan if the whole smartphone market plateaued. 

    Sure they talk about services making up the difference, but I read a good article showing that services won’t be as profitable as the lost sales of iPhones. 

    This is the first time I have seen a little panic in Apple’s behavior. They didn’t predict that the Xs and XR would not sell as well as they thought, and they surely didn’t predict that they would be replacing 11 million iPhone batteries in 2018. That was something that they should have factored correctly.  They predicted only 1-2 million batteries would have been replaced. 

    So if there ever is a time that you have Apple’s attention, it’s now.  Let Apple know that the Mac is still very much a viable market and they can make up for years of neglect if they work fast. I know there are a lot of people who have been waiting for a Mac good enough to upgrade to and taking care of them can boost the bottom line. 
    They may not have predicted it, but 1-2M is the "normal" annual replacement tally and not the prediction for the inexpensive replacement program.
    The fact that Tim does not cite what the expectations were and admits that the program affected upgrading devices is the point I was trying to make.

    They could have easily created a software rollback to remove the throttle and just have iPhones power off unexpectedly. That way the customer could have made a better decision on paying $80 for a battery that could last a little longer or upgrade and not worry about their device for at least 2 years if they purchase AppleCare +. 
    I guess I'm not sure where you're going with this in total, or the relevancy to the topic at hand, but I may be missing something. Also, they did make the software "rollback."
    fastasleep
  • Reply 39 of 127
    AppleExposedAppleExposed Posts: 1,689unconfirmed, member
    So Apple creating their own hardware isn't an option?......
  • Reply 40 of 127
    I recall in one of the bonus-videos on a Pixar-movie learning about John Lassetter's history.

    Paraphrased and could be mildly-inaccurate:

    He worked for Disney, did a computer video of some kind, and got fired.
    Started Pixar, (help from Steve), eventual raging success.
    Disney approached to buy/control Pixar, with JL as the Pixar boss.
    Instead of saying F-you, he agreed to be bought out, due to Disney's mega marketing/distro business.
    I recall being impressed that he could set pride/revenge aside.

    Good weekend all.

    PS:  Not saying I'm an angel in this regard, but the story came to mind.
    Pixar has it roots when Ed Catmull from the University of Utah and a few other engineers were recruited by the founder of NYIT to start a computer graphics lab. The group was then acquired by LucasFilm where their work included the Genesis simulation in Star Trek The Wrath of Khan. Steve Jobs then purchased the group from George Lucas. I believe Lasseter joined them when they were at NYIT.
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