Apple's management doesn't want Nvidia support in macOS, and that's a bad sign for the Mac...

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  • Reply 41 of 126
    So Apple creating their own hardware isn't an option?......
    Only if you can stomach to wait another 2-4 years till software titles have been updated to support it. – If at all. 

    Given the deprecation of OpenGL, it is more or less a given any Apple GPU will have zero support for it. Meaning a lot of software titles, niche and in-house developed applications will never be ported. 
  • Reply 42 of 126
    auxioauxio Posts: 2,005member
    ElCapitan said:
    So Apple creating their own hardware isn't an option?......
    Given the deprecation of OpenGL, it is more or less a given any Apple GPU will have zero support for it. Meaning a lot of software titles, niche and in-house developed applications will never be ported. 
    Cool.  Maybe I'll have to take a look at some of the more popular OpenGL based apps which will no longer work on Mac (and they're too lazy to port) and get together with some engineers + UX people to create Metal versions of them.  All the arrogance is going to do is create new opportunities for small dev shops (which become tomorrow's big shops).
    edited January 18 roundaboutnow
  • Reply 43 of 126
    auxio said:
    ElCapitan said:
    So Apple creating their own hardware isn't an option?......
    Given the deprecation of OpenGL, it is more or less a given any Apple GPU will have zero support for it. Meaning a lot of software titles, niche and in-house developed applications will never be ported. 
    Cool.  Maybe I'll have to take a look at some of the more popular OpenGL based apps which will no longer work on Mac (and they're too lazy to port) and get together with some engineers + UX people to create Metal versions of them.  All the arrogance is going to do is create new opportunities for small dev shops (which become tomorrow's big shops).
    Go ahead and rewrite DAZ Studio for instance. Including all the NVIDIA Iray content created for it. It should keep you busy and away from this forum for quite a while.
  • Reply 44 of 126
    auxioauxio Posts: 2,005member
    ElCapitan said:
    auxio said:
    ElCapitan said:
    So Apple creating their own hardware isn't an option?......
    Given the deprecation of OpenGL, it is more or less a given any Apple GPU will have zero support for it. Meaning a lot of software titles, niche and in-house developed applications will never be ported. 
    Cool.  Maybe I'll have to take a look at some of the more popular OpenGL based apps which will no longer work on Mac (and they're too lazy to port) and get together with some engineers + UX people to create Metal versions of them.  All the arrogance is going to do is create new opportunities for small dev shops (which become tomorrow's big shops).
    Go ahead and rewrite DAZ Studio for instance. Including all the NVIDIA Iray content created for it. It should keep you busy and away from this forum for quite a while.
    You're missing the point.  The point is that, underneath all of the bluster, it's just sheer arrogance and blind hatred for a company (emotional decisions) which are driving all of this (and yes, that might be happening on the Apple side too).

    I worked in a company which was blindly/emotionally Microsoft-centric for years (in the pre-mobile era), and had to fight management hard to ensure they didn't put their eggs all in one platform.  Eventually I was vindicated when customers started asking for mobile versions of their software.  Surprise!  Suddenly all that hard work to make the software work well on Mac made it possible to port it to iOS in a few months.  And all the abstractions made it easy to port the core of it to Android (though the Java bridging made it take much longer than iOS).  Keeping an open mind and adapting to change is the only way to survive in the tech industry.
    edited January 18 StrangeDaysthtroundaboutnowhmurchison
  • Reply 45 of 126
    auxio said:
    ElCapitan said:
    auxio said:
    ElCapitan said:
    So Apple creating their own hardware isn't an option?......
    Given the deprecation of OpenGL, it is more or less a given any Apple GPU will have zero support for it. Meaning a lot of software titles, niche and in-house developed applications will never be ported. 
    Cool.  Maybe I'll have to take a look at some of the more popular OpenGL based apps which will no longer work on Mac (and they're too lazy to port) and get together with some engineers + UX people to create Metal versions of them.  All the arrogance is going to do is create new opportunities for small dev shops (which become tomorrow's big shops).
    Go ahead and rewrite DAZ Studio for instance. Including all the NVIDIA Iray content created for it. It should keep you busy and away from this forum for quite a while.
    You're missing the point.  The point is that, underneath all of the bluster, it's just sheer arrogance and blind hatred for a company (emotional decisions) which are driving all of this (and yes, that might be happening on the Apple side too).

    I worked in a company which was blindly/emotionally Microsoft-centric for years (in the pre-mobile era), and had to fight management hard to ensure they didn't put their eggs all in one platform.  Eventually I was vindicated when customers started asking for mobile versions of their software.  Surprise!  Suddenly all that hard work to make the software work well on Mac made it possible to port it to iOS in a few months.  And all the abstractions made it easy to port the core of it to Android (though the Java bridging made it take much longer than iOS).  Keeping an open mind and adapting to change is the only way to survive in the tech industry.
    I think you miss the point. Apple used to DEFINE the change, now it is peddling its shit in Samsung gear and "recommending" customers half baked solutions including a broken ecosystem. 

    The Mac used to be the system of choice for creators of all genres, now it only feels stifling and laggard. How can you even find excuses for not updating PRO systems for years? - For years! 
  • Reply 46 of 126
    auxioauxio Posts: 2,005member
    ElCapitan said:
    auxio said:
    ElCapitan said:
    So Apple creating their own hardware isn't an option?......
    Given the deprecation of OpenGL, it is more or less a given any Apple GPU will have zero support for it. Meaning a lot of software titles, niche and in-house developed applications will never be ported. 
    Cool.  Maybe I'll have to take a look at some of the more popular OpenGL based apps which will no longer work on Mac (and they're too lazy to port) and get together with some engineers + UX people to create Metal versions of them.  All the arrogance is going to do is create new opportunities for small dev shops (which become tomorrow's big shops).
    Go ahead and rewrite DAZ Studio for instance. Including all the NVIDIA Iray content created for it. It should keep you busy and away from this forum for quite a while.
    I heard similar things about Photoshop, and yet here we are with Pixelmator.  While it certainly isn't everything Photoshop is, I know more than a few people in graphic design for whom it covers all their needs.
    fastasleep
  • Reply 47 of 126
    auxioauxio Posts: 2,005member
    ElCapitan said:
    auxio said:
    ElCapitan said:
    auxio said:
    ElCapitan said:
    So Apple creating their own hardware isn't an option?......
    Given the deprecation of OpenGL, it is more or less a given any Apple GPU will have zero support for it. Meaning a lot of software titles, niche and in-house developed applications will never be ported. 
    Cool.  Maybe I'll have to take a look at some of the more popular OpenGL based apps which will no longer work on Mac (and they're too lazy to port) and get together with some engineers + UX people to create Metal versions of them.  All the arrogance is going to do is create new opportunities for small dev shops (which become tomorrow's big shops).
    Go ahead and rewrite DAZ Studio for instance. Including all the NVIDIA Iray content created for it. It should keep you busy and away from this forum for quite a while.
    You're missing the point.  The point is that, underneath all of the bluster, it's just sheer arrogance and blind hatred for a company (emotional decisions) which are driving all of this (and yes, that might be happening on the Apple side too).

    I worked in a company which was blindly/emotionally Microsoft-centric for years (in the pre-mobile era), and had to fight management hard to ensure they didn't put their eggs all in one platform.  Eventually I was vindicated when customers started asking for mobile versions of their software.  Surprise!  Suddenly all that hard work to make the software work well on Mac made it possible to port it to iOS in a few months.  And all the abstractions made it easy to port the core of it to Android (though the Java bridging made it take much longer than iOS).  Keeping an open mind and adapting to change is the only way to survive in the tech industry.
    I think you miss the point. Apple used to DEFINE the change, now it is peddling its shit in Samsung gear and "recommending" customers half baked solutions including a broken ecosystem. 
    Apple has never DEFINED change in the PC industry.  For as long as I can remember, they've never been in the dominant marketshare position in PCs.  And any changes they've ever made have been ridiculed and declared to be their downfall by people who are either emotionally and/or fiscally invested in other platforms.  By people with tunnel vision who only see one path and want to beat everyone into submission so that they follow that same path.  Regardless of whether that path is actually going to lead to a better future or simply hold things back because those people just don't want to change/do things differently.
    StrangeDaysthtroundaboutnow
  • Reply 48 of 126
    auxioauxio Posts: 2,005member

    ElCapitan said:
    auxio said:
    ElCapitan said:
    auxio said:
    ElCapitan said:
    So Apple creating their own hardware isn't an option?......
    Given the deprecation of OpenGL, it is more or less a given any Apple GPU will have zero support for it. Meaning a lot of software titles, niche and in-house developed applications will never be ported. 
    Cool.  Maybe I'll have to take a look at some of the more popular OpenGL based apps which will no longer work on Mac (and they're too lazy to port) and get together with some engineers + UX people to create Metal versions of them.  All the arrogance is going to do is create new opportunities for small dev shops (which become tomorrow's big shops).
    Go ahead and rewrite DAZ Studio for instance. Including all the NVIDIA Iray content created for it. It should keep you busy and away from this forum for quite a while.
    You're missing the point.  The point is that, underneath all of the bluster, it's just sheer arrogance and blind hatred for a company (emotional decisions) which are driving all of this (and yes, that might be happening on the Apple side too).

    I worked in a company which was blindly/emotionally Microsoft-centric for years (in the pre-mobile era), and had to fight management hard to ensure they didn't put their eggs all in one platform.  Eventually I was vindicated when customers started asking for mobile versions of their software.  Surprise!  Suddenly all that hard work to make the software work well on Mac made it possible to port it to iOS in a few months.  And all the abstractions made it easy to port the core of it to Android (though the Java bridging made it take much longer than iOS).  Keeping an open mind and adapting to change is the only way to survive in the tech industry.
    The Mac used to be the system of choice for creators of all genres, now it only feels stifling and laggard. How can you even find excuses for not updating PRO systems for years? - For years! 
    I myself haven't had a need for a PRO system for years.  I own the original Mac Pro and it was a GREAT machine for years.  8 cores and 16GB of 800MHz DDR2 RAM improved my software development productivity tremendously (easily 1/10th the time of recompiling compared to consumer machines).  However, these days, the benefits of such a high-end machine for me don't justify the added costs over a top-of-the-line consumer level machine.  As well, I rarely have need to upgrade the components like I did back then.  And I'm sure I'm not the only PRO in this situation.

    What you don't see is that the need for the these types of machines is very niche these days, even amongst PROs.  And I'm sure Apple has the sales numbers to back that up.
    edited January 18 StrangeDaysroundaboutnow
  • Reply 49 of 126
    We already have a solution for this problem.  Apple's bean counter mentality, with regard to the Mac, has simply become un-acceptable.  This year, in lieu of upgrading desktop iMacs, we will be swapping them out for PC workstations with nvidia graphics.  Tim Cook is no Steve Jobs .. He appears to be willing to force Mac users into accepting lower quality hardware to make a miserable few more dollars.  Every single Mac that has failed in our shop over the last few years had an AMD graphics solution.  In addition, the state of AMD drivers on the Mac is pathetic at best - we have code that works great on even Intel graphics but fails on machines with AMD graphics.  We are simply done with this.
    Nonsense. Macs are getting better -- the iMac Pro, the Mac Mini (Pro), the new MBPs, etc.. Which is also why they are more expensive. Which gets the pretend-pros in a tizzy as they are actually DIY tinkerers and not pros, thus upset about having to spend more. 

    Jobs canceled the Xserve line and people whined about him shit-canning things. Same as it ever was.
    fastasleep
  • Reply 50 of 126
    auxio said:
    ElCapitan said:
    auxio said:
    ElCapitan said:
    So Apple creating their own hardware isn't an option?......
    Given the deprecation of OpenGL, it is more or less a given any Apple GPU will have zero support for it. Meaning a lot of software titles, niche and in-house developed applications will never be ported. 
    Cool.  Maybe I'll have to take a look at some of the more popular OpenGL based apps which will no longer work on Mac (and they're too lazy to port) and get together with some engineers + UX people to create Metal versions of them.  All the arrogance is going to do is create new opportunities for small dev shops (which become tomorrow's big shops).
    Go ahead and rewrite DAZ Studio for instance. Including all the NVIDIA Iray content created for it. It should keep you busy and away from this forum for quite a while.
    You're missing the point.  The point is that, underneath all of the bluster, it's just sheer arrogance and blind hatred for a company (emotional decisions) which are driving all of this (and yes, that might be happening on the Apple side too).

    I worked in a company which was blindly/emotionally Microsoft-centric for years (in the pre-mobile era), and had to fight management hard to ensure they didn't put their eggs all in one platform.  Eventually I was vindicated when customers started asking for mobile versions of their software.  Surprise!  Suddenly all that hard work to make the software work well on Mac made it possible to port it to iOS in a few months.  And all the abstractions made it easy to port the core of it to Android (though the Java bridging made it take much longer than iOS).  Keeping an open mind and adapting to change is the only way to survive in the tech industry.
    But it's no way to survive on user forums, where the cranktankerous can only dwell on the past and their myopic ways of working.
    fastasleep
  • Reply 51 of 126
    Bad sign my ass. That's a great sign and seeing as Nvidia has junk support with Metal and AMD works fantastically with Metal it's rather clear Apple will continue with AMD and it's push into 7nm/7nm+.

    The upcoming Navi and its successor are two OEM designs Apple has early access to and I trust they know what is best for their Engineering Designs over Apple Insider.
    StrangeDaysfastasleephmurchison
  • Reply 52 of 126

    ElCapitan said:
    auxio said:
    ElCapitan said:
    auxio said:
    ElCapitan said:
    So Apple creating their own hardware isn't an option?......
    Given the deprecation of OpenGL, it is more or less a given any Apple GPU will have zero support for it. Meaning a lot of software titles, niche and in-house developed applications will never be ported. 
    Cool.  Maybe I'll have to take a look at some of the more popular OpenGL based apps which will no longer work on Mac (and they're too lazy to port) and get together with some engineers + UX people to create Metal versions of them.  All the arrogance is going to do is create new opportunities for small dev shops (which become tomorrow's big shops).
    Go ahead and rewrite DAZ Studio for instance. Including all the NVIDIA Iray content created for it. It should keep you busy and away from this forum for quite a while.
    You're missing the point.  The point is that, underneath all of the bluster, it's just sheer arrogance and blind hatred for a company (emotional decisions) which are driving all of this (and yes, that might be happening on the Apple side too).

    I worked in a company which was blindly/emotionally Microsoft-centric for years (in the pre-mobile era), and had to fight management hard to ensure they didn't put their eggs all in one platform.  Eventually I was vindicated when customers started asking for mobile versions of their software.  Surprise!  Suddenly all that hard work to make the software work well on Mac made it possible to port it to iOS in a few months.  And all the abstractions made it easy to port the core of it to Android (though the Java bridging made it take much longer than iOS).  Keeping an open mind and adapting to change is the only way to survive in the tech industry.
    I think you miss the point. Apple used to DEFINE the change, now it is peddling its shit in Samsung gear and "recommending" customers half baked solutions including a broken ecosystem. 

    The Mac used to be the system of choice for creators of all genres, now it only feels stifling and laggard. How can you even find excuses for not updating PRO systems for years? - For years! 
    My ecosystem isn't broken. If yours is, I'd wager you're in a very, very small minority of users. The MP alone is "single-digit" of all Mac users. You're describing a niche within a niche. Not all use cases are equal, that's just a fact. Most of Apple's pros are software developers these days. I have no problem with the offerings. 

    Yeah the redesigned MP is coming later than we'd all like -- including Apple. In the TechCrunch article on their round-table, they explained why pretty clearly. Parallel processing in the current model didn't work out for them the way they'd bet it would, thermal corner, etc.. After some attempts to re-jigger they were forced to start over. 

    I swear some of you act like Apple is comprised of mortal men & women. You act as if Apple is filled with gods & titans who never run into trouble. Fine, go get Dells and stop bitching already. 
    fastasleep
  • Reply 53 of 126
    Mike WuertheleMike Wuerthele Posts: 4,871administrator
    Bad sign my ass. That's a great sign and seeing as Nvidia has junk support with Metal and AMD works fantastically with Metal it's rather clear Apple will continue with AMD and it's push into 7nm/7nm+.

    The upcoming Navi and its successor are two OEM designs Apple has early access to and I trust they know what is best for their Engineering Designs over Apple Insider.
    Yes, because there's no scenario for somebody in the "Pro" market where somebody might want better Photoshop or other Adobe application performance from a Nvidia card versus an AMD card. Or, CUDA calculations for genomics and the like.

    Right.

    Regarding Metal, read the article, because that's addressed. This isn't about Apple's engineering department, not even one tiny bit, and you'd know that if you read the article instead of skimming the headline and opining.
    edited January 18
  • Reply 54 of 126
    auxio said:
    ElCapitan said:
    auxio said:
    ElCapitan said:
    auxio said:
    So for all of these CUDA folks who are lobbying for Apple to bring NVIDIA to Mac, did you ever consider lobbying for NVIDIA to open CUDA up to other GPU manufacturers?  Or work together with the Khronos group to make it part of open standards like OpenCL or Vulkan?  These things work both ways you know... but it seems a lot of these posts have a whiff of vested interest in NVIDIA.
    Well, you can say the same about Apple opening up Metal, right? It all swings multiple ways, and some of them can come to bite Apple more than others. 
    Agreed.  However, I've seen at least a dozen discussions about opening up Metal (or making Vulcan work on Mac/iOS) but none about opening up CUDA (or making it work on other GPUs).  If you want everything open, then at least be consistent about it.
    For me personally, to what extent there is CUDA support or not is not particularly important. The important discussion, however, is that the user community has been voicing strong opinions about the need for an open Mac that can both be tailored to accommodate very diverse hardware configurations, including NVIDIA, and that can also run the widest range of software.
    And if you understand the hardware design philosophy of Apple, then you know that they always choose being able to move forward quickly on new technologies vs having their resources tied up in supporting a multitude of hardware configuration options (as Microsoft did/does with PCs).  The more resources (people/time) you have invested in supporting existing technologies, the less you have for designing or moving to new technologies.  Microsoft was so bogged down in making Windows PCs support all sorts of hardware (including legacy hardware) that they missed the boat on mobile.  That was directly a result of their design choices.

    The Mac Pro presents an interesting dilemma for them because it creates conflicting goals for the company.  On one hand they want it to be modular/configurable, but on the other hand they don't want to tie themselves down in supporting the multitude of 3rd party devices (many poorly designed) which people will configure it to use.  Which is why they generally make it incumbent on 3rd party manufacturers to ensure their hardware is compatible.

    Modular configurations to me for the Mac Pro tells me they'll offer AMD Instinct MI60 custom OEM designs to future proof Navi and its successor designs. The modularity of swapping out various GPGPUs being vendor agnostic has never been a consideration. It's more along the lines of which tiers from AMD will we support as options.
  • Reply 55 of 126
    Sanctum1972Sanctum1972 Posts: 94unconfirmed, member
    We already have a solution for this problem.  Apple's bean counter mentality, with regard to the Mac, has simply become un-acceptable.  This year, in lieu of upgrading desktop iMacs, we will be swapping them out for PC workstations with nvidia graphics.  Tim Cook is no Steve Jobs .. He appears to be willing to force Mac users into accepting lower quality hardware to make a miserable few more dollars.  Every single Mac that has failed in our shop over the last few years had an AMD graphics solution.  In addition, the state of AMD drivers on the Mac is pathetic at best - we have code that works great on even Intel graphics but fails on machines with AMD graphics.  We are simply done with this.
    Nonsense. Macs are getting better -- the iMac Pro, the Mac Mini (Pro), the new MBPs, etc.. Which is also why they are more expensive. Which gets the pretend-pros in a tizzy as they are actually DIY tinkerers and not pros, thus upset about having to spend more. 

    Jobs canceled the Xserve line and people whined about him shit-canning things. Same as it ever was.
    First off, the users posted here are NOT pretend pros but do the real work. I'm a professional graphic designer/artist so that doesn't make me a tinkerer nor a 'pretend pro'. What you're doing is gaslighting via arrogance/ignorance and you're not the only one with that attitude I've seen. Their anger is REAL and justified. And no, they're not haters. They want Apple called out for the decisions being made. 

    And also the pros want flexibility to be able to install RAM or storage, or a graphics card such as NVIDIA. That's a DIY skill as that users has had in the past and still do. Hell, even the old G4 Power Mac allowed you to increase the specs or change them up however you wanted. That's not a tinkering thing. Remember, the more powerful and demanding the software gets in size and complexity, the more it needs to EAT up memory ( RAM ) and take up storage. This is why the PC market stayed that way for practical reasons without the 'crippling' of expansion ports like Apple did recently. Just because the Macs are more expensive don't mean they're getting better. High prices do not make a computer better. If I'm going to buy a computer, it better last me a decade with expansion bays/slots that let me do whatever I want. 

    Do you know what computer did that? It was the PowerMac G4 tower back in 2002. Or the G5. These machines were monsters and built like tanks. They were so easy to upgrade. EASY! Just pop out the side and everything slides out. The trash can Pro? iMac? Mac Mini? Seriously, they need a redesign or go back to practical basics. 
  • Reply 56 of 126
    JenVJenV Posts: 2unconfirmed, member
    It's not simple for us to leave Apple. We are a specialist medical app provider relying on CUDA . All our development takes place on Apple hardware. We also have encouraged clients to deploy Apples. We have been fence-sitting in the hope of good news but time is running out. We have started an assessment to move over to Windows/PC hardware. Once done there is no way back. Still hoping for Apple to come forward with a statement to give us hope. Maybe the end of an era for us.
    edited January 18
  • Reply 57 of 126
    macroninmacronin Posts: 1,174member
    I recall in one of the bonus-videos on a Pixar-movie learning about John Lassetter's history.

    Paraphrased and could be mildly-inaccurate:

    He worked for Disney, did a computer video of some kind, and got fired.
    Started Pixar, (help from Steve), eventual raging success.
    Disney approached to buy/control Pixar, with JL as the Pixar boss.
    Instead of saying F-you, he agreed to be bought out, due to Disney's mega marketing/distro business.
    I recall being impressed that he could set pride/revenge aside.

    Good weekend all.

    PS:  Not saying I'm an angel in this regard, but the story came to mind.
    Pixar has it roots when Ed Catmull from the University of Utah and a few other engineers were recruited by the founder of NYIT to start a computer graphics lab. The group was then acquired by LucasFilm where their work included the Genesis simulation in Star Trek The Wrath of Khan. Steve Jobs then purchased the group from George Lucas. I believe Lasseter joined them when they were at NYIT.
    It was the desire of Ed & others at Lucasfilm / ILM to do full 3d movies, but Lucas just wanted 3d to integrate with live action...

    So Steve Jobs came in & purchased "the Pixar group" from Lucas for 50 million...

    Then after a string of highly successful 3d animated movies, Jobs sold Pixar to Disney for 5 billion...! 
  • Reply 58 of 126
    The Swiss Watch industry laughed at the Apple Watch.
  • Reply 59 of 126
    auxio said:
    So for all of these CUDA folks who are lobbying for Apple to bring NVIDIA to Mac, did you ever consider lobbying for NVIDIA to open CUDA up to other GPU manufacturers?  Or work together with the Khronos group to make it part of open standards like OpenCL or Vulkan?  These things work both ways you know... but it seems a lot of these posts have a whiff of vested interest in NVIDIA.
    I thought Apple deprecated OpenCL.
  • Reply 60 of 126
    Guys, 

    Thanks for a fine article.  One point:  the 680 is not the biggest NVIDIA card you can use in a 5,1.  

    My firm runs two maxed-out 12-core 5,1 machines, one with multiple 4K-class monitors, and several lesser machines.  We had to stop using our GTX 980 cards when Mojave came out; we needed Mojave because our key software wanted it.   It turns out that a 780 will work perfectly under Mojave, and provides a bit more kick than a 680.  We miss the 980 cards, and their fine performance on multiple monitors, of course.  The 780 is competent. 

    I share the fatigue, disappointment, and frustration expressed by others.   My first Apple purchase was an Apple ][ with — count ‘em — 48k RAM and a special chip that allowed lower case letters.  This $2500 beauty (with Olympus electric typewriter attached) out-competed a $25,000 DEC dedicated word processor in 1982.  I’ve moved along with Apple ever since... through the ///, the Macs, the laptops... we have a museum of old machines.  The struggle between open and closed hardware is as old as the struggle between the ][ and the Mac.  This struggle is unresolved and eternal.  If I may offer a slight variation on the “pro vs. non-pro” argument based on longevity, it would be this.  I don’t think Apple is against “pro” users.  Apple has lost enthusiasm for hardware tinkerers, customizers, optimizers, experimenters, and the guys who keep trying to squeeze another percent out of their gear.  We have grease under our fingernails, scars, spare parts lying around, and a picture of some chrome extravagance hanging on the shop wall, over the carcass of a customized Triumph Bonneville (real carburetors).  Everything is just so clean and glossy now.  The happy young people in the ads live in a hyper-bright colorful world supervised by “thrilled” people with carefully-arranged casually-downdressed outfits.  That’s fine, for them.  But if you miss welding and banging, pull up a gas can, have a seat, and let’s toast Woz together.  

    Aloha, and stay warm.  
    JenV
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