Allegations of discrimination spawn investigation into Apple Card credit lines

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  • Reply 21 of 141
    If DHH was a participant in Apple’s decision making process, he’d be singing a different tune. 
    cat52
  • Reply 22 of 141
    What credit card company has access to your tax returns?  That’s not how they determine credit worthiness...

    You’d probably need to create an account in your name, then add a spouse, but they would be sharing your credit limit.

    Comes down to who’s responsible for the debt.  If they separated she might not be in a position to pay off a higher limit credit card...


  • Reply 23 of 141
    pgpappas said:
    My wife and I had the same issue. She had a slightly higher credit score and makes more money than I do. I received 10K in credit. She only got 7500. All other aspects of our financial information are the same. The only possible explanation is gender based discrimination.
    So what else is left? Very obvious 
  • Reply 24 of 141
    The silly snark here aside, simply put, this will be widely — and IMHO, rightly — viewed as frikkin’ sexist. Apple will have to make cards available for the spouse and the family members of the primary cardholder — just as every other credit card does, including the Amex Platinum and Centurion credit cards. Period. 

    The sooner it does so, the smaller the PR disaster will be for Apple.

    This was inevitable, and a train-wreck waiting to happen.
    edited November 2019 firelock
  • Reply 25 of 141
    For someone as smart as DHH, he sure can be an idiot. He makes millions of dollars a year, his wife makes nothing (typical).  Credit card companies don’t care what sec you are.  They just want to lend you as much money as possible without risk of losing it. 
    cat52randominternetperson
  • Reply 26 of 141
    pgpappas said:
    My wife and I had the same issue. She had a slightly higher credit score and makes more money than I do.  I received 10K in credit. She only got 7500. All other aspects of our financial information are the same. The only possible explanation is gender based discrimination.
    Yeah well, I just paid off my car loan and my credit score dropped 30 points. Must be because the credit bureaus realized I'm a male. That is the only possible explanation.
    steven n.cat52urahara
  • Reply 27 of 141
    dee_dee said:
    For someone as smart as DHH, he sure can be an idiot. He makes millions of dollars a year, his wife makes nothing (typical).  Credit card companies don’t care what sec you are.  They just want to lend you as much money as possible without risk of losing it. 
    You must live in a neighborhood where it’s atypical for millionaire husbands to cover the finances for their “nothing (typical)” wife.

    Cool. Very cool.
  • Reply 28 of 141
    MicDorsey said:
    pgpappas said:
    My wife and I had the same issue. She had a slightly higher credit score and makes more money than I do.  I received 10K in credit. She only got 7500. All other aspects of our financial information are the same. The only possible explanation is gender based discrimination.
    Yeah well, I just paid off my car loan and my credit score dropped 30 points. Must be because the credit bureaus realized I'm a male. That is the only possible explanation.
    Credit 101 says that is an unlikely explanation for the decline in your score. In fact, quite unlikely.
  • Reply 29 of 141
    “Our credit decisions are based on a customer's creditworthiness and not on factors like gender, race, age, sexual orientation or any other basis prohibited by law."

    Seems clear enough for me.  
    cat52sarthosurahara
  • Reply 30 of 141
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 9,233member
    MicDorsey said:
    pgpappas said:
    My wife and I had the same issue. She had a slightly higher credit score and makes more money than I do.  I received 10K in credit. She only got 7500. All other aspects of our financial information are the same. The only possible explanation is gender based discrimination.
    Yeah well, I just paid off my car loan and my credit score dropped 30 points. Must be because the credit bureaus realized I'm a male. That is the only possible explanation.
    Credit 101 says that is an unlikely explanation for the decline in your score. In fact, quite unlikely.
    Actually, I recently paid off my entire student loan in full, and my score also dropped. Credit scoring companies like to see that people have loans etc., and that they are paying them off monthly.

    If somebody pays off their entire loan, then that is one less loan on their account and many people's scores will get dinged for that, depending on other circumstances too, like how many loans somebody has in total, etc.
    edited November 2019 cat52firelockdysamoriajdb8167
  • Reply 31 of 141
    larryjw said:
    The issue I raised to myself as I was requesting the Apple Card:

    First, don't know the information credit agencies get. I'm pretty sure they don't get any tax information, or have any idea of our net worth. I'm not sure they have access to investment accounts. 

    In any case, except for a few special accounts, my wife and I have joint accounts. 

    So, when credit worthiness is determined, they are determining that decision based on our joint financial interests. I got the Apple Card. 

    Now, if my wife requests the Apple Card, they cannot determine her credit worthiness independent from the determination of our credit worthiness when I signed up, otherwise they would be, in some sense, doubling the estimate of our credit worthiness. 

    Because the Apple Card account is not issued to spouses jointly, it makes sense that the first to get the Apple Card, gets the max, while the second spouse might get denied or a minimal limit. 

    The solution for Apple-GS is to tie both cards together into one account by default. 
    There is a lot of misinformation in this thread.

    First off, in general, lenders look at a variety of factors in determining a borrower's creditworthiness.  Income is one, as are assets.

    A person's credit score is another. it is an individual score, covering every reported creditor you've ever had in your financial life. Another person only factors in when you both appear on a joint credit account (like when you co-sign for someone), but that is simply another entry in the list. A person's score is still predominantly their own.

    Contrary to popular belief, your credit score has nothing at all to do with income or assets. It is strictly a measure of your ability to responsibly borrow money. The only accounts it looks at are credit accounts. Whether you pay your bills, and pay them on time is one of the biggest factors in the scoring algorithm. It also factors in credit utilization % -- how much of your credit lines are you using?

    A person who makes little income, but pays off their bills, on time, is going to have a higher score than one who makes high incomes, but uses most of their credit line, or doesn't pay their bills on time. The credit score does not judge whether your income gives you the ability to pay your bills; it only evaluates how you act when paying them (or not).

    Credit scores fluctuate naturally as a person goes about the business of living and borrowing money, whether acquiring new lines or credit, closing old ones, and simply making use of existing lines.

    While a mortgage lender does take into account all of the factors, and more, such as a stable employment history, a credit card lender does not go that far. A person's credit score, and stated income and occupation is about as far as it goes most of the time.

    If a lender wishes to independently verify your income with the IRS, they must do so with your permission. They may also ask to you to provide confirmation, in the form of pay stubs, but again, that is only with your permission. But most of the time, they do not, and while they are required by law to ask, the information you provide is voluntary (but legally obligated to be truthful).

    I'd have to dig out an old tri-merge to confirm, but I don't think gender is even part of a credit report, and even if it was, it was never considered as part of the work we did. DHH's wife may not have received as high of a line as he believes she should, but that is probably a result her history run through the models used, not overt discrimination based on gender.

    Just because the dude is a successful businessman who can afford to spend six figures annually as a privateer P2 driver in the WEC doesn't mean his wife will automatically be afforded the same credit line, at least as far as the banks are concerned.
    edited November 2019 roundaboutnowsteven n.cat52randominternetpersonentropysjdb8167sarthos
  • Reply 32 of 141
    apple ][ said:
    MicDorsey said:
    pgpappas said:
    My wife and I had the same issue. She had a slightly higher credit score and makes more money than I do.  I received 10K in credit. She only got 7500. All other aspects of our financial information are the same. The only possible explanation is gender based discrimination.
    Yeah well, I just paid off my car loan and my credit score dropped 30 points. Must be because the credit bureaus realized I'm a male. That is the only possible explanation.
    Credit 101 says that is an unlikely explanation for the decline in your score. In fact, quite unlikely.
    Actually, I recently paid off my entire student loan, and my score also dropped. Credit scoring companies like to see that people have loans etc., and that they are paying them off monthly.

    If somebody pays off their entire loan, then that is one less loan on their account and many people's scores will get dinged for that, depending on other circumstances too, like how many loans somebody has in total, etc.
    This simply does not make sense.

    Do send a cite from a credible financial site/source that backs up this claim.
  • Reply 33 of 141
    jungmark said:
    Not enough info. What are your salaries? 
    You may have a tough time believing this, but generally speaking, your salary is not even considered as a primary attribute in determining your credit score.

    It’s way down in the scheme of things... you should look it up.
    chemengin1
  • Reply 34 of 141
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 9,233member
    This simply does not make sense.

    Do send a cite from a credible financial site/source that backs up this claim.
    Besides Credit Card payments, the student loan was the only loan that I had.

    Now I have zero loans, so I have nothing to make monthly loan payments to, since the student loan account is now paid off in full and closed. 

    I don't claim to be an expert on credit or know 100% how the credit scoring companies work, I just follow my various scores through banks and other sites and I've gotten to know their system a little bit after following it for a while now. I see when it goes up and I see when it goes down.

    A person builds up their credit score by having debt and making payments on time. If a person doesn't currently have any loans to pay off, then they are not paying off any debt and building up their credit history.




    mwhitecat52
  • Reply 35 of 141
    hexclockhexclock Posts: 1,266member
    apple ][ said:
    Haha, what a bunch of crap.

    There are many factors that go into a credit score, and there is no minus on your score for being a female and there is no secret conspiracy against females, and various companies, in this case, Goldman Sachs has whatever criteria they have for approving or not approving applicants.

    What's his income, what's his wife's income? Just because somebody is married that doesn't mean that their credit scores or their credit limit or their history will be identical.

    I've never heard of this guy before or Ruby on Rails, but I read a few of the whiny tweets and BS claims he makes and he sounds like a real SJW and he probably has a pink pussy hat in his closet.

    Hilarious how much mansplaining is flowing in this thread.

    I’d be surprised to learn if the team at Apple working on this wasn’t over-represented with men, or at least women who haven’t had to worry about credit approval.

    So yeah, I completely stand by my original charge: @AppleCard is a sexist program.
    When I was younger, and foolish, I worked in debt collections. We had access to a debt holders full credit report, but not any investments. We could only see loans through various lenders, but not if you had a rich aunt that put a bunch of money into an Ameritrade account for you. We could not see inheritance. 
    Most importantly, each individual credit report was just that, individual. There were no joint credit reports. 
    edited November 2019 cat52jdb8167
  • Reply 36 of 141
    pgpappas said:
    My wife and I had the same issue. She had a slightly higher credit score and makes more money than I do.  I received 10K in credit. She only got 7500. All other aspects of our financial information are the same. The only possible explanation is gender based discrimination.
    Gender based discrimination is everywhere. I pay more for car insurance than my wife. My life insurance is also more expensive. All because I’m a man and men—on average—are more expensive to insure. 

    Perhaps there’s some stat that shows women are higher credit risks? Who knows? When people start crying about the unfairness of men paying more for insurance, I might get upset about women receiving lower credit limits. 
    edited November 2019 designrcat52sarthos
  • Reply 37 of 141
    apple ][apple ][ Posts: 9,233member

    Do send a cite from a credible financial site/source that backs up this claim.
    I found this cite from Experian, which explains why it dropped in my situation.

    Here are a few reasons why your score might drop when you pay off a loan:

    • It was your only installment account: Having a mix of revolving accounts (like credit cards) and installment accounts (such as loans) is generally good for your credit scores. If the loan you paid off was your only installment account, you might lose some points because you no longer have a mix of different types of open accounts.
    https://www.experian.com/blogs/ask-experian/why-did-my-credit-score-drop-when-I-paid-off-a-loan/
    mwhitedesignrcat52Rosynagregoriusmfirelockdysamoriajdb8167revenantchemengin1
  • Reply 38 of 141
    MicDorsey said:
    pgpappas said:
    My wife and I had the same issue. She had a slightly higher credit score and makes more money than I do.  I received 10K in credit. She only got 7500. All other aspects of our financial information are the same. The only possible explanation is gender based discrimination.
    Yeah well, I just paid off my car loan and my credit score dropped 30 points. Must be because the credit bureaus realized I'm a male. That is the only possible explanation.
    Credit 101 says that is an unlikely explanation for the decline in your score. In fact, quite unlikely.
    Same thing happened to us. Paid off our truck that had a $14k balance. Credit went down the next quarter. 
    mwhitedesignrcat52gregoriusmdysamoria
  • Reply 39 of 141
    apple ][ said:

    Do send a cite from a credible financial site/source that backs up this claim.
    I found this cite from Experian, which explains why it dropped in my situation.

    Here are a few reasons why your score might drop when you pay off a loan:

    • It was your only installment account: Having a mix of revolving accounts (like credit cards) and installment accounts (such as loans) is generally good for your credit scores. If the loan you paid off was your only installment account, you might lose some points because you no longer have a mix of different types of open accounts.
    https://www.experian.com/blogs/ask-experian/why-did-my-credit-score-drop-when-I-paid-off-a-loan/
    The mix of different types of credit can be a factor, but a fairly low one in terms of weight. The highly weighted ones are usually payment history, the amount of outstanding debt (which would go down when you repay a loan fully), and length of time one has had credit.

    The fact that this may have happened to you (and a couple of others who have similarly posted anecdotes from their experience) says nothing necessarily: for example, I have near-zero debt (still have a little bit of mortgage debt outstanding), yet my score is 844, but that’s just one data point. I do have a fairly lengthy history of credit, and my payment history has been near-spotless (late a couple of times because of travels and such before the days of the days of the internet). But that’s neither here nor there, and merely another anecdote.
    edited November 2019
  • Reply 40 of 141
    Yeah. I agree that women are discriminated against in this age of Individual 1 in many, many arenas, but I'm pretty sure this is just about the math of their credit history. 
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