Allegations of discrimination spawn investigation into Apple Card credit lines

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  • Reply 41 of 142
    netroxnetrox Posts: 1,332member
    MicDorsey said:
    pgpappas said:
    My wife and I had the same issue. She had a slightly higher credit score and makes more money than I do.  I received 10K in credit. She only got 7500. All other aspects of our financial information are the same. The only possible explanation is gender based discrimination.
    Yeah well, I just paid off my car loan and my credit score dropped 30 points. Must be because the credit bureaus realized I'm a male. That is the only possible explanation.
    Ha, same with me, I paid off my car loan three years sooner than expected and my score dropped that much as well which was a shock. 
    designrcat52dysamoria
  • Reply 42 of 142
    dee_dee said:
    For someone as smart as DHH, he sure can be an idiot. He makes millions of dollars a year, his wife makes nothing (typical).  Credit card companies don’t care what sec you are.  They just want to lend you as much money as possible without risk of losing it. 
    You must live in a neighborhood where it’s atypical for millionaire husbands to cover the finances for their “nothing (typical)” wife.

    Cool. Very cool.
    Hey - if DHH wants a trophy wife then that’s his business.  But don't cry like a little bitch because his credit limit is 20x what hers is.
    edited November 2019 cat52bluefire1
  • Reply 43 of 142
    Dumb complaint. First does Apple decide the credit worthiness? Isn’t it The Bank? In this case GS?

    And deciding credit worthiness is complicated. Does one person have a late student loan? Or a tax history? I really doubt it’s an issue of it male female. In this day and age that wouldn’t be just sexiest but hugely harmful from a business perspective.
    cat52
  • Reply 44 of 142
    Appleish said:
    Yeah. I agree that women are discriminated against in this age of Individual 1 in many, many arenas, but I'm pretty sure this is just about the math of their credit history. 
    Sure, it likely is, but getting back to the point of the story here (and away from personal credit anecdotes), since Apple/GS do not allow a primary cardholder to add their spouse or family to their account (as pretty much all credit cards do), and since this is more like to affect wives than husbands, it creates a huge perception problem for Apple. Especially when the company is seen — and keen to be seen — as one that is at the vanguard of dealing with social issues in the workplace.

    I’m predicting that Apple/GS will have to become like other credit card companies on this front.
    muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 45 of 142
    dee_dee said:
    dee_dee said:
    For someone as smart as DHH, he sure can be an idiot. He makes millions of dollars a year, his wife makes nothing (typical).  Credit card companies don’t care what sec you are.  They just want to lend you as much money as possible without risk of losing it. 
    You must live in a neighborhood where it’s atypical for millionaire husbands to cover the finances for their “nothing (typical)” wife.

    Cool. Very cool.
    Hey - if DHH wants a trophy wife then that’s his business.  But don't cry like a little bitch because his credit limit is 20x what hers is.
    I don’t — and I don’t care to — know who DHH is and whether he has a “trophy wife” who is, according to you, a “nothing (typical)” etc., but that has nothing to do with the point of the article. It is an Apple-branded card, and Apple can’t simply ignore the fallout that will result from this. It is already hitting the mainstream media in a big way, and I am guessing the publicity will grow.
    edited November 2019 muthuk_vanalingam
  • Reply 46 of 142
    I really don't think there is much to be seen here.  It all boils down to credit score.  Who know what each has as a score, or why.  Apple doesn't determine the score.  Both my wife and I have over 100K instant credit, and have had for decades.  We have never even come close to using it, and pay off our card balance each month.  Since we have shown that we can handle credit responsibly it increases our score.  If we were younger without a proven history of being able to manage credit it would be a bad thing.  We both have FICO scores in the upper 800's.  We both have the same limit 20k, and the same rate 12.74%.  This is all a dog and pony show for a limited amount of time until there is something else to hype on.  Both of us have kept our own credit line. She has had her own cards, loans etc.. in her name.  I have always had my cards, loans, etc.. in my name so we each would have our own credit history.  I would suspect that is coming into play here everything had been in his name.

    Mike
    edited November 2019 cat52
  • Reply 47 of 142
    Let’s see his wife’s credit report. I bet it’s not so hot. The only gender discrimination here is by him and his half baked story that doesn’t contain a single fact. Fake outrage designed to cover his humiliation over his wife’s bad credit being exposed.
    cat52
  • Reply 48 of 142
    didn’t meet them
    sdw2001 said:
    How is this guy a successful developer and yet he doesn’t understand how credit works?  

    FYI, he should try my situation:  Nearly spotless credit for 25 years.  Owned a townhome, moved out and rented it.  Two years later, tenants trashed it.  Renovated ($5000 and 100+ hours of hard work), listed for sale in a good market.  No buyers.  Can’t pay mortgage, lender reneged on a short sale by claiming I never sent the paperwork (which was sent three times).  Now in foreclosure.  Got flat out denied for an Apple Card despite other history and solid income.  Cry me a river.  
    Three sides to every story - yours, theirs and the truth. Regardless, you took a mortgage, agreed to terms and didn't fulfill them. Your short sale story sounds like BS. Got proof you sent the paperwork in? Obviously not. You got in over your head and clearly had insufficient capital to be in the rental property business. You had a house of cards and no way to deal with it if anything deviated from your plan. That’s no one’s fault except yours.
  • Reply 49 of 142
    steven n.steven n. Posts: 1,228member
    Fatman said:
    He can only make an argument if they are completely equal financially - working? salary? Credit rating history? Late payment history? Current balances/debt? Oldest account?  ... all based on algorithms for each individual. I’m sure they would love to extend her more credit if she qualifies and they can limit risk. If this dude didn’t look into all these things, he should be sued for libel.
    Exactly, just because he is married in a community property state does NOT mean he and his wife have the same credit score. How in the world could he not understand something so simple?
    cat52sarthos
  • Reply 50 of 142
    steven n.steven n. Posts: 1,228member
    larryjw said:
    clexman said:
    larryjw said:
    Wgkrueger said:
    Each person has their own credit history. 
    Almost never true.
    Unless they have jointly applied for every loan, credit card, bank account, utility account, etc. since day one, their history will be different.
    Unless you're in your 20s 0r 30s, married couples will have identical credit history, and been married for less 10 years, perhaps there is a difference in credit history. They should be identical after this. 
    What a silly statement. My parent’s credit score equalized only after my dad retired and they were fully integrated financially. They both had really good credit scores, but even after 4- years, my dad’s was between 20 and 30 points higher. 
    cat52
  • Reply 51 of 142
    steven n.steven n. Posts: 1,228member
    apple ][ said:
    This simply does not make sense.

    Do send a cite from a credible financial site/source that backs up this claim.
    Besides Credit Card payments, the student loan was the only loan that I had.

    Now I have zero loans, so I have nothing to make monthly loan payments to, since the student loan account is now paid off in full and closed. 

    I don't claim to be an expert on credit or know 100% how the credit scoring companies work, I just follow my various scores through banks and other sites and I've gotten to know their system a little bit after following it for a while now. I see when it goes up and I see when it goes down.

    A person builds up their credit score by having debt and making payments on time. If a person doesn't currently have any loans to pay off, then they are not paying off any debt and building up their credit history.




    When I paid off my house, my credit score dropped anout 25 points for 2-3 years and at the same time, my credit card’s limit was increased. 
    cat52dysamoria
  • Reply 52 of 142
    If there truly is a gender-bias here, what is the motive?
    cat52
  • Reply 53 of 142
    YP101YP101 Posts: 143member
    Well, if he makes 500K/year and wife just make 80K then I wonder what she put in her income when she applied the card?
    20X more does not make sense.. So if he had limit 20K then she only have 1K limit? I doubt it..

    Or he had limit for 1M and she only have 50K limit then who cares.. she still have more credit limit then most of house income less then 120K anyway.

    My wife never worked and she applied for Apple card and get 7.9K limit. I get 9K.
    I had all other 4 cards has 20K limits.. Aren't we have enough credit limit?

    Darn these days some people complain for FREE credit card for limit bump... lol...
    I thought Apple card does not give back enough rewards.. 2x cash back FREE cards flooded in the market.. pick any one of them..
  • Reply 54 of 142
    bellsbells Posts: 140member
    larryjw said:
    The issue I raised to myself as I was requesting the Apple Card:

    First, don't know the information credit agencies get. I'm pretty sure they don't get any tax information, or have any idea of our net worth. I'm not sure they have access to investment accounts. 

    In any case, except for a few special accounts, my wife and I have joint accounts. 

    So, when credit worthiness is determined, they are determining that decision based on our joint financial interests. I got the Apple Card. 

    Now, if my wife requests the Apple Card, they cannot determine her credit worthiness independent from the determination of our credit worthiness when I signed up, otherwise they would be, in some sense, doubling the estimate of our credit worthiness. 

    Because the Apple Card account is not issued to spouses jointly, it makes sense that the first to get the Apple Card, gets the max, while the second spouse might get denied or a minimal limit. 

    The solution for Apple-GS is to tie both cards together into one account by default. 
    That is actually a good point. If they know you are married, and one person already has a card, it wouldn't make sense for the second party to have the same spending limit if the first spending limit was based on household income. 

    Regardless, the ruby' persons' argument lacks merit without far more information. My step father and mother were both making about $150, 000 a year and both had several million in the bank. My step father went to finance a car, and he didn't get that good of a rate because previously he had paid everything in cash so he didn't have a credit history. 
    cat52
  • Reply 55 of 142
    jungmark said:
    Not enough info. What are your salaries? 
    You may have a tough time believing this, but generally speaking, your salary is not even considered as a primary attribute in determining your credit score.

    It’s way down in the scheme of things... you should look it up.
    Salary has zero input in FICO credit score, but it often has a huge effect on the credit limit a lender is willing to grant. 

    In the situation described in the article, as others have noted, the fact that the husband and wife file a joint tax return has no effect on credit limit determination. Goldman doesn’t request or use tax returns for underwriting purposes. 

    There’s no way of even begin to figure out what’s going on without knowing credit scores and other info from their credit files. Strange that he talks about Apple’s algorithm when Apple isn’t involved in the credit analysis. 

    In any case, the guy sounds like an a-hole. 
    cat52randominternetpersonRosynadesignrrevenantsarthos
  • Reply 56 of 142
    larryjw said:
    clexman said:
    larryjw said:
    Wgkrueger said:
    Each person has their own credit history. 
    Almost never true.
    Unless they have jointly applied for every loan, credit card, bank account, utility account, etc. since day one, their history will be different.
    Unless you're in your 20s 0r 30s, married couples will have identical credit history, and been married for less 10 years, perhaps there is a difference in credit history. They should be identical after this. 
    Nonsense.  My wife and I have many joint accounts but our credit histories are not identical.  For one thing, one's credit score includes things like "age of oldest line of credit." My oldest credit card goes back about 30 years, and I still don't max out that dimension on my credit score.  I've only been married 25 years.  

    If my wife and I got divorced, her finances would be not great based on her career history.  Credit companies don't/can't assume that we'll be married forever.
    cat52
  • Reply 57 of 142

    larryjw said:
    First, don't know the information credit agencies get. I'm pretty sure they don't get any tax information, or have any idea of our net worth. I'm not sure they have access to investment accounts. 
    Wanna bet?  I suggest you look at your credit report.
  • Reply 58 of 142
    Appleish said:
    Yeah. I agree that women are discriminated against in this age of Individual 1 in many, many arenas, but I'm pretty sure this is just about the math of their credit history. 
    Sure, it likely is, but getting back to the point of the story here (and away from personal credit anecdotes), since Apple/GS do not allow a primary cardholder to add their spouse or family to their account (as pretty much all credit cards do), and since this is more like to affect wives than husbands, it creates a huge perception problem for Apple. Especially when the company is seen — and keen to be seen — as one that is at the vanguard of dealing with social issues in the workplace.

    I’m predicting that Apple/GS will have to become like other credit card companies on this front.
    A huge perception problem for Apple?  Hardly.  Perhaps the media, on a slow news day, will try to make hay out of some random almost-somebody's tweet alleging sex discrimination, but this story will have no legs and will hardly generate any real interest.  I predict this will completely blow over with no one even remembering it.  The other (very unlikely) alternative is that an investigation will turn up a systemic problem with the credit card industry and it won't be an "Apple issue" at all.
    cat52
  • Reply 59 of 142
    Kuyangkoh said:
    pgpappas said:
    My wife and I had the same issue. She had a slightly higher credit score and makes more money than I do. I received 10K in credit. She only got 7500. All other aspects of our financial information are the same. The only possible explanation is gender based discrimination.
    So what else is left? Very obvious 
    He’s not familiar with the nonsense of the American credit lending situation. For example, moving a lot or moving to different countries can negatively affect your creditworthiness, even if it doesn’t negatively affect your FICO score.  You can also have a very high FICO score while having poor creditworthiness (or vice versa), because the factors a specific bank/credit company uses are a very black box and can also involve background checks (they claim its to “prevent fraud”).

    For example, the amount in your bank account, savings accounts, investment portfolio with one bank aren’t legally available to other banks. Nor are you tax returns.
    dysamoriacat52jdb8167
  • Reply 60 of 142
    Fatman said:
    He can only make an argument if they are completely equal financially - working? salary? Credit rating history? Late payment history? Current balances/debt? Oldest account?  ... all based on algorithms for each individual. I’m sure they would love to extend her more credit if she qualifies and they can limit risk. If this dude didn’t look into all these things, he should be sued for libel.
    Exactly, what this idiot does not realize, the credit law changed a long time ago, credit is now based on the individual and individuals activity. In the past husbands bad credit was being pass into the wife just for the reasons he pointed out as reason why he thinks she should have same credit line as him. 

    My wife and I both got Apple card everything he said applies to us too, we both got the same credit line, but my wife makes as much as I do. She happens to have higher credit rating than me (we both have very good ratings) because we made a decision a long time ago to put most all our bills in her name to help her establish credit when she was not making as much as me and before the law changed.

    Long and short this guy has no clue and has been listening to media propaganda about how woman are traded unfairly. 

    I'm more upset Apple would not allow us to have one card for both of us, I think Apple is doing this so couples credits are not tied together. 
    GeorgeBMaccat52sarthos
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