Allegations of discrimination spawn investigation into Apple Card credit lines

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Comments

  • Reply 61 of 141
    MicDorsey said:
    apple ][ said:
    Hilarious how much mansplaining is flowing in this thread.

    I’d be surprised to learn if the team at Apple working on this wasn’t over-represented with men, or at least women who haven’t had to worry about credit approval.

    So yeah, I completely stand by my original charge: @AppleCard is a sexist program.


    Mansplaining (I wonder who invented *that* word; I'd be surprised… (CAUTION: You are in the no-fact zone); …a sexist program (I bet you say this a few times a day and are a really happy person).
    Too many parentheses. It's impossible to discern what you are trying to say. 
    dysamoria
  • Reply 62 of 141
    It's funny that people seem so surprised that a bank might do something unethical. What large banks in the United States haven't been caught doing unethical or illegal stuff within the last decade? Goldman, BoA, Citi, Wells Fargo, Santander...they've all done worse. I mean, the CEO of Goldman testified to Congress that their biggest moneymaker at the time of the global financial meltdown was intentionally lying to clients about mortgage based securities. His justification for it was "you need to be sophisticated enough as an investor to know when we're lying".
    dysamoria
  • Reply 63 of 141
    Now everyone is an apologist for Goldman Sachs (alleged) discrimination against women? 
    dysamoria
  • Reply 64 of 141
    DHH needs to state explicitly that his wife’s credit rating is similar to his own. Otherwise he’s wasting everyone’s time.

    Also, I don’t remember a question about assets, but I do remember a question about income. That’s probably the source of the disparity, assuming all other things are more or less equal. Because he’s not complaining about her interest rate. He’s complaining about her credit limit.

    The solution would be to each claim half of their total household income. I don’t know if that’s technically legal, but I’d consider it to be ethical, since it’s true as long as they are married. 
    cat52
  • Reply 65 of 141
    Note that I do owe DHH thanks here, because this article quite possibly saved us from failing to pay my spouse’s Apple Card on time!

    Let me explain — all of our other credit accounts are joint or shared. So there is only one statement to pay for each. I’m so used to that approach that when I paid my Apple Card last month (for the first time) and earlier this month, I dutifully accounted for it on our family financial spreadsheet and moved on... COMPLETELY forgetting that my spouse’s Apple Card is separate and has to be paid separately, on her phone with her Apple ID! As I was writing my above response to this article, thinking about how we each reported our income, I realized my mistake — luckily, she did not use her new Apple Card in September, so she didn’t have a balance to pay in October, so we didn’t miss any payments. But we could have! Since I handle all the IT and accounting, she might well have ignored any reminders they would have sent, not realizing she has to pay that bill herself in iOS. Phew!
    edited November 2019
  • Reply 66 of 141
    The actual issue here is that Apple Card does not allow additional card holders to be added to the primary user's account. That is very unusual and will likely slow the use, if not the adoption, of Apple Card. For example, both my wife and adult daughter have additional cards on my main credit card account. Particularly in the case of my daughter who just graduated college this gives her a great deal of additional spending ability that she would not otherwise have. The credit card company doesn’t care what my daughter’s credit rating is because there is only one bill —mine— and as long as I continue to make the payments in time all is good.

    DHH has obscured the real issue described above by floating a red herring about discrimination that stems from his actual or feigned ignorance of how credit works.
    anantksundaram
  • Reply 67 of 141
    jimh2jimh2 Posts: 633member
    There are way too many unknown variables to begin to explain the differences. If the Ruby on Rails guy is willing to lay out his finances then we can make an informed decision on whether his wife was wronged. 

    I have a better idea don’t use the card and return the one you have and close the account.
    dysamoria
  • Reply 68 of 141
    sdw2001sdw2001 Posts: 18,019member
    tommikele said:
    didn’t meet them
    sdw2001 said:
    How is this guy a successful developer and yet he doesn’t understand how credit works?  

    FYI, he should try my situation:  Nearly spotless credit for 25 years.  Owned a townhome, moved out and rented it.  Two years later, tenants trashed it.  Renovated ($5000 and 100+ hours of hard work), listed for sale in a good market.  No buyers.  Can’t pay mortgage, lender reneged on a short sale by claiming I never sent the paperwork (which was sent three times).  Now in foreclosure.  Got flat out denied for an Apple Card despite other history and solid income.  Cry me a river.  
    Three sides to every story - yours, theirs and the truth. Regardless, you took a mortgage, agreed to terms and didn't fulfill them. Your short sale story sounds like BS. Got proof you sent the paperwork in? Obviously not. You got in over your head and clearly had insufficient capital to be in the rental property business. You had a house of cards and no way to deal with it if anything deviated from your plan. That’s no one’s fault except yours.
    Or maybe you don’t know WTF you’re talking about.  And I couldn’t give a shit if you think my story is BS.  You have no idea what led to the situation, nor am I claiming I don’t owe the money.  I’m simply putting forth an example of what can happen with credit despite years of superb history.  
    cat52
  • Reply 69 of 141
    jimh2jimh2 Posts: 633member
    After glancing at DHH’s twitter feed I have seen all I need to know about him to make it clear I will never use any of the products he supports, owns, sells, or is affiliated with. 
    cat52
  • Reply 70 of 141
    DHH needs to state explicitly that his wife’s credit rating is similar to his own. Otherwise he’s wasting everyone’s time.


    You aren't the first person to imply that his wife's credit rating is the potential issue and I'll give you credit for doing so politely rather than some of the other folks on here that disparaged DHH and his wife in the process of suggesting this. The funny thing is, he did. It isn't mentioned in the Apple Insider article but in his twitter thread where he lays out his complaints he explicitly states that her score his higher than his. Further he calls out that they checked via Transunion which is who GS uses for Apple Card. 

    It's really entertaining how many people in these comments are calling him an idiot and or saying he doesn't know what he is talking about but haven't bothered to go look at what he has actually said. Most of the types of comments made here he has actually addressed. 

    The irony of people talking smack about the guy for not knowing something while at the same time proving they really haven't bothered to educate themselves on situation is pretty rich. 

    The crux of the issue is that nobody knows how GS makes a decision on card approval, credit limit and interest rate. If you contact GS Apple Card support and ask what factors they consider they don't know and just tell you the decision is made on the persons "credit worthiness". Anyone that thinks it is simply income + credit score is incorrect. My spouse and I both applied. We both used our combined income as our income (per the directions when applying) with both have credit scores in the 800s with mine being a few points higher. They got double the credit limit I did and their interest rate is lowest possible while mine is in the middle. So, trying to simplify it to income and credit score is misguided at best. 

    I am not saying DHH's claim that the algorithm is sexist is correct, I do agree with him that GS should be open about what factors are being considered for issue a card. There are clearly a series of inputs they are using and once your interest rate and credit limit are set they won't entertain changing them (I have tried) and they won't tell you why they made the decision. There is no harm in being transparent so people can ensure their "inputs" are in order prior to applying for a card and it would live up to the pro-consumer brand Apple and GS are trying to get. 

  • Reply 71 of 141
    larryjw said:
    clexman said:
    larryjw said:
    Wgkrueger said:
    Each person has their own credit history. 
    Almost never true.
    Unless they have jointly applied for every loan, credit card, bank account, utility account, etc. since day one, their history will be different.
    Unless you're in your 20s 0r 30s, married couples will have identical credit history, and been married for less 10 years, perhaps there is a difference in credit history. They should be identical after this. 
    Nonsense. Every bill, every loan, and all financial accounts and records have both of you listed as the account holder? I don't think so. Auto loans, for instance, only have one signer unless you need to co-sign, which if you have identical credit scores, as you claim, is impossible and makes no sense. 
    GeorgeBMaccat52
  • Reply 72 of 141
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    OK, they share stuff.  But the part they did not mention was income.  How much does she make and how much does he make.
    Income is a critical component of lending and ignoring it was a key component of the 2008 crash -- banksters lent huge amounts of money to people who simply didn't have the income to repay it.
    firelock
  • Reply 73 of 141
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    It's funny that people seem so surprised that a bank might do something unethical. What large banks in the United States haven't been caught doing unethical or illegal stuff within the last decade? Goldman, BoA, Citi, Wells Fargo, Santander...they've all done worse. I mean, the CEO of Goldman testified to Congress that their biggest moneymaker at the time of the global financial meltdown was intentionally lying to clients about mortgage based securities. His justification for it was "you need to be sophisticated enough as an investor to know when we're lying".
    Actually, the facts argue against the point you are trying to make:
    In 2008 the banksters loaned enormous amounts of money to individuals whose income was not sufficient to repay the loans. The result was the 2008 crash.
    So, now that they are looking at income to help determine how much to lend, you call them crooked for doing something they should have been doing all along!
  • Reply 74 of 141
    MplsPMplsP Posts: 3,956member
    sdw2001 said:
    tommikele said:
    didn’t meet them
    sdw2001 said:
    How is this guy a successful developer and yet he doesn’t understand how credit works?  

    FYI, he should try my situation:  Nearly spotless credit for 25 years.  Owned a townhome, moved out and rented it.  Two years later, tenants trashed it.  Renovated ($5000 and 100+ hours of hard work), listed for sale in a good market.  No buyers.  Can’t pay mortgage, lender reneged on a short sale by claiming I never sent the paperwork (which was sent three times).  Now in foreclosure.  Got flat out denied for an Apple Card despite other history and solid income.  Cry me a river.  
    Three sides to every story - yours, theirs and the truth. Regardless, you took a mortgage, agreed to terms and didn't fulfill them. Your short sale story sounds like BS. Got proof you sent the paperwork in? Obviously not. You got in over your head and clearly had insufficient capital to be in the rental property business. You had a house of cards and no way to deal with it if anything deviated from your plan. That’s no one’s fault except yours.
    Or maybe you don’t know WTF you’re talking about.  And I couldn’t give a shit if you think my story is BS.  You have no idea what led to the situation, nor am I claiming I don’t owe the money.  I’m simply putting forth an example of what can happen with credit despite years of superb history.  
    There were plenty of stories likely yours in the housing crisis - people getting multiple stories from their lender, etc. unfortunately, what you have to do is be incredibly defensive and get everything in writing as well as confirmation that materials are received. 

    In the end, It doesn’t matter if it was because the bank lied and was incompetent; that doesn’t show up. You had a bad loan on your credit history and it’s going to be hard for you to get credit. 
  • Reply 75 of 141
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    DHH needs to state explicitly that his wife’s credit rating is similar to his own. Otherwise he’s wasting everyone’s time.


    You aren't the first person to imply that his wife's credit rating is the potential issue and I'll give you credit for doing so politely rather than some of the other folks on here that disparaged DHH and his wife in the process of suggesting this. The funny thing is, he did. It isn't mentioned in the Apple Insider article but in his twitter thread where he lays out his complaints he explicitly states that her score his higher than his. Further he calls out that they checked via Transunion which is who GS uses for Apple Card. 

    It's really entertaining how many people in these comments are calling him an idiot and or saying he doesn't know what he is talking about but haven't bothered to go look at what he has actually said. Most of the types of comments made here he has actually addressed. 

    The irony of people talking smack about the guy for not knowing something while at the same time proving they really haven't bothered to educate themselves on situation is pretty rich. 

    The crux of the issue is that nobody knows how GS makes a decision on card approval, credit limit and interest rate. If you contact GS Apple Card support and ask what factors they consider they don't know and just tell you the decision is made on the persons "credit worthiness". Anyone that thinks it is simply income + credit score is incorrect. My spouse and I both applied. We both used our combined income as our income (per the directions when applying) with both have credit scores in the 800s with mine being a few points higher. They got double the credit limit I did and their interest rate is lowest possible while mine is in the middle. So, trying to simplify it to income and credit score is misguided at best. 

    I am not saying DHH's claim that the algorithm is sexist is correct, I do agree with him that GS should be open about what factors are being considered for issue a card. There are clearly a series of inputs they are using and once your interest rate and credit limit are set they won't entertain changing them (I have tried) and they won't tell you why they made the decision. There is no harm in being transparent so people can ensure their "inputs" are in order prior to applying for a card and it would live up to the pro-consumer brand Apple and GS are trying to get. 

    So, despite your qualifier, it appears that you take his word for everything?
    The fact remains:  What would GS have to gain by discriminating against somebody with top flight credit?  GS is after money and profit.  They have zero incentive to not only discriminate but (likely) break the law.

    I'll go with GS on this one.   And, no, they do not have ANY obligation to expose their algorithms for determining credit worthiness.  That would simply invite cheating.
    designr
  • Reply 76 of 141
    MplsPMplsP Posts: 3,956member
    Something no one here has mentioned is that when the Apple Card first came out there were many stories of people with excellent credit getting very low credit lines. Knowing that, when I read this story I assumed it was more an artifact of GS’s whacked up algorithm than any active sexism on their part. Maybe that’s being too charitable, but as many people have mentioned, no one except GS has all the facts here. 

    Also,  just from a business perspective I would think GS has a clear interest in not discriminating. Not only are they losing potential customers but the negative publicity and financial liability if they get caught would make it a poor decision. 
    GeorgeBMaccat52randominternetperson
  • Reply 77 of 141
    DHH needs to state explicitly that his wife’s credit rating is similar to his own. Otherwise he’s wasting everyone’s time.


    You aren't the first person to imply that his wife's credit rating is the potential issue and I'll give you credit for doing so politely rather than some of the other folks on here that disparaged DHH and his wife in the process of suggesting this. The funny thing is, he did. It isn't mentioned in the Apple Insider article but in his twitter thread where he lays out his complaints he explicitly states that her score his higher than his. Further he calls out that they checked via Transunion which is who GS uses for Apple Card. 

    It's really entertaining how many people in these comments are calling him an idiot and or saying he doesn't know what he is talking about but haven't bothered to go look at what he has actually said. Most of the types of comments made here he has actually addressed. 

    The irony of people talking smack about the guy for not knowing something while at the same time proving they really haven't bothered to educate themselves on situation is pretty rich. 

    The crux of the issue is that nobody knows how GS makes a decision on card approval, credit limit and interest rate. If you contact GS Apple Card support and ask what factors they consider they don't know and just tell you the decision is made on the persons "credit worthiness". Anyone that thinks it is simply income + credit score is incorrect. My spouse and I both applied. We both used our combined income as our income (per the directions when applying) with both have credit scores in the 800s with mine being a few points higher. They got double the credit limit I did and their interest rate is lowest possible while mine is in the middle. So, trying to simplify it to income and credit score is misguided at best. 

    I am not saying DHH's claim that the algorithm is sexist is correct, I do agree with him that GS should be open about what factors are being considered for issue a card. There are clearly a series of inputs they are using and once your interest rate and credit limit are set they won't entertain changing them (I have tried) and they won't tell you why they made the decision. There is no harm in being transparent so people can ensure their "inputs" are in order prior to applying for a card and it would live up to the pro-consumer brand Apple and GS are trying to get. 

    So did DHH also address the income question? Did they both answer that question the same way? In our case, we did what you did re: income, but we got the expected result — exactly the same interest rate and credit lines.

    Another question for him: Did they apply for their mortgage(s) jointly? That’s likely a factor.

    I get that algorithms like this are complex and proprietary, but a general description of the factors involved would be helpful. ... I wouldn’t hold my breath.
    edited November 2019 cat52
  • Reply 78 of 141
    bulk001 said:
    Now everyone is an apologist for Goldman Sachs (alleged) discrimination against women? 
    No, we’re saying the guy jumped to an incorrect conclusion and that there’s very probably no discrimination involved. GS is using automated underwriting, and the factors considered are those related to creditworthiness and risk of default. 

    The FICO credit scoring model is very well understood by those in the business, and the many data scientists and other analysts responsible for the algorithm are keenly aware of the need for it to be non-discriminatory. They do a ton of testing. I have a lot more confidence in those folks knowing what they’re doing than I do in some rando knowing what he’s talking about. 
    designrGeorgeBMaccat52sarthos
  • Reply 79 of 141
    anantksundaram said:

    I don’t — and I don’t care to — know who DHH is and whether he has a “trophy wife” who is, according to you, a “nothing (typical)” etc., but that has nothing to do with the point of the article. It is an Apple-branded card, and Apple can’t simply ignore the fallout that will result from this. It is already hitting the mainstream media in a big way, and I am guessing the publicity will grow.
    It has *everything* to do with the article.  It seems you are a bit slow to catch on so I'll explain it again for you again.  DHH is a millionaire, he has a wife, who makes nothing (typical).  If she wants to spend money (DHH's money) then she should ask him for an allowance of some sort, then everyone would be happy.
    cat52
  • Reply 80 of 141
    SoliSoli Posts: 10,038member
    dee_dee said:
    anantksundaram said:

    I don’t — and I don’t care to — know who DHH is and whether he has a “trophy wife” who is, according to you, a “nothing (typical)” etc., but that has nothing to do with the point of the article. It is an Apple-branded card, and Apple can’t simply ignore the fallout that will result from this. It is already hitting the mainstream media in a big way, and I am guessing the publicity will grow.
    It has *everything* to do with the article.  It seems you are a bit slow to catch on so I'll explain it again for you again.  DHH is a millionaire, he has a wife, who makes nothing (typical).  If she wants to spend money (DHH's money) then she should ask him for an allowance of some sort, then everyone would be happy.
    Why does this site draw in so many misogynists?
    MplsPStrangeDaysanantksundaram
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