100% of professionals are looking for a powerful computer that they can upgrade/expand over time. 99.99% of professionals did not ask for this extremely expensive specific video editing computer. 99.99% of professionals will not buy this extremely expensive specific video editing computer. Therefore - the Mac Pro is in every way overpriced for the professional market.
Pointing to the .02% of professionals who might want this and making an argument in their support while ignoring pretty much the entire market... that's a stretch.
What's a "video-editing computer"?
How about you take the consideration that Xeon W with 3647 is an expensive platform?
You people want an i9 desktop, that's your problem, but don't expect a workstation to build two boards just to fulfill your need.
If you're happy with 768GB or less RAM, it can be found elsewhere for much less than what Apple is charging. For more than 768GB, I don't find many sources. Amazon lists Apple-branded memory for the new Mac Pro at ridiculous prices (but out of stock). As for an 8TB SSD, sadly (for me) that option is still coming.
100% of professionals are looking for a powerful computer that they can upgrade/expand over time. 99.99% of professionals did not ask for this extremely expensive specific video editing computer. 99.99% of professionals will not buy this extremely expensive specific video editing computer. Therefore - the Mac Pro is in every way overpriced for the professional market.
Pointing to the .02% of professionals who might want this and making an argument in their support while ignoring pretty much the entire market... that's a stretch.
Nope.
It is overpriced for you, and that's fine. It is not overpriced when compared to equivalent Windows Workstation machines, which is what this article is all about.
I think the biggest problem is most don't realize (or pretend to) how much things have changed.
A single Xeon W-3223 supports 1TiB of memory with 64 PCIe lanes, along with 16.5 MiB cache. $750 MSRP. Comparing a 3647 socket workstation to a consumer platform (i3/i5/i7/i9, Ryzen 3/5/7/9) isn't going to work as they're focusing on different segments, as of now, you'll never be able to add more than 128GiB of RAM or having two graphics card running with full lanes. Those Xeon Ws are not the same as back then where the entry-level is pretty much another consumer brand with workstation technologies, it's built for the workstation in mind.
With all due respect, I disagree. AI has presented the new Mac Pro, however in nuanced terms, as an article for consumers and not a workstation for professionals. Two examples: AI posted an article about where to get and how to install third party RAM on the Mac Pro to avoid paying Apple for outrageous RAM prices. Why would a pro do that?
As a solo professional, I would do that. The cost differential is huge, and in the event of a system problem, the OEM memory can easily be swapped back in. I love that! That's why. And the lack of easy upgradability has been an issue with the iMac Pro.
100% of professionals are looking for a powerful computer that they can upgrade/expand over time. 99.99% of professionals did not ask for this extremely expensive specific video editing computer. 99.99% of professionals will not buy this extremely expensive specific video editing computer. Therefore - the Mac Pro is in every way overpriced for the professional market.
Pointing to the .02% of professionals who might want this and making an argument in their support while ignoring pretty much the entire market... that's a stretch.
Have you checked on what major production studios pay for cameras and lenses? Of course it's too expensive for the smaller guys but it isn't aimed at them. I suspect Apple probably wanted this for themselves and Apple TV + production too. Meanwhile, yes it would be nice if there were a mid range tower for the small guys but the iMac i9 5K and iMac Pro are not too shabby.
I bought a few of this years maxed out iMac's after they announced this Mac Pro Enterprise. So did my peers in the industry (Branding/Creative). We are also buying a windows box to start looking into migrating as many other agencies already have. After 26 years - it looks like Apple will be shown the door if they don't release a proper Mac for professionals that serves Small/Medium sized businesses in the next 3 years. (After these iMac have been written down).
There is no excuse for Apple to cater to .001% of the market and claim "There you go - we love Pro's seeeeee..." It's such a massive 'miss' that we are seriously looking at Windows.
"After 26 years - it looks like Apple will be shown the door if they don't release a proper Mac for professionals that serves Small/Medium sized businesses in the next 3 years."
That's called the iMac Pro. Or if you want, you can get the baseline Mac Pro and upgrade as your needs change / expand.
There is so much media silliness surrounding Apple. I certainly don’t recall broad-audience media outlets complaining about the prices of Sun, SGI, Apollo, MASSCOMP, HP, DEC or even the “low cost” MicroVAX workstations back in their day. I had a Sun 3/260 with the additional expansion chassis filled with Mercury array processors at work. All of the expansion boards (VME) were the size of pizza boxes. When the 200 MB hard drive failed the tech brought the replacement disk in using a hand truck because the thing was so heavy. I can only imagine what the total cost of that workstation was but I didn’t see any news coverage about it.
The Mac Pro is a modern workstation class machine with a workstation class price. You gotta pay big boy money to play with big boy toys.
Yes. There are a number of professionals who go 3rd party memory solutions. Back in the day when I sold SUN systems, I had a customer at Army Research Labs who would buy big buck SUN servers and workstations but wouldn't buy RAM from SUN because of the price. Instead he would max out his systems with memory from Kingston. Had another customer at NOAA who did they same as well as several customers who worked in the various "alphabet agencies". They had massive budgets for IT equipment and would think nothing about spending $10+ Million for a SUN E10k server, and would still buy 3rd party memory. In fact, there was an internal gov't blog about various systems performance with 3rd party memory. These same customers would think nothing of spending a few grand a year for a support contract for their equipment.
On the commercial side, I had many, many customers, (GE, Oracle, ALPA, Teamsters, UPS to name a few) who did the same thing.
100% of professionals are looking for a powerful computer that they can upgrade/expand over time. 99.99% of professionals did not ask for this extremely expensive specific video editing computer. 99.99% of professionals will not buy this extremely expensive specific video editing computer. Therefore - the Mac Pro is in every way overpriced for the professional market.
Pointing to the .02% of professionals who might want this and making an argument in their support while ignoring pretty much the entire market... that's a stretch.
Have you checked on what major production studios pay for cameras and lenses? Of course it's too expensive for the smaller guys but it isn't aimed at them. I suspect Apple probably wanted this for themselves and Apple TV + production too. Meanwhile, yes it would be nice if there were a mid range tower for the small guys but the iMac i9 5K and iMac Pro are not too shabby.
I bought a few of this years maxed out iMac's after they announced this Mac Pro Enterprise. So did my peers in the industry (Branding/Creative). We are also buying a windows box to start looking into migrating as many other agencies already have. After 26 years - it looks like Apple will be shown the door if they don't release a proper Mac for professionals that serves Small/Medium sized businesses in the next 3 years. (After these iMac have been written down).
There is no excuse for Apple to cater to .001% of the market and claim "There you go - we love Pro's seeeeee..." It's such a massive 'miss' that we are seriously looking at Windows.
I've been in the business since the 70's. As I said earlier Apple should have called it the Mac WorkStation not the Mac pro because there may be a need for both. This isn't the machine you think it is, it is not too expensive for who it is meant for and that isn't your proper Mac professionals doing graphic design.
100% of professionals are looking for a powerful computer that they can upgrade/expand over time. 99.99% of professionals did not ask for this extremely expensive specific video editing computer. 99.99% of professionals will not buy this extremely expensive specific video editing computer. Therefore - the Mac Pro is in every way overpriced for the professional market.
Pointing to the .02% of professionals who might want this and making an argument in their support while ignoring pretty much the entire market... that's a stretch.
Have you checked on what major production studios pay for cameras and lenses? Of course it's too expensive for the smaller guys but it isn't aimed at them. I suspect Apple probably wanted this for themselves and Apple TV + production too. Meanwhile, yes it would be nice if there were a mid range tower for the small guys but the iMac i9 5K and iMac Pro are not too shabby.
I bought a few of this years maxed out iMac's after they announced this Mac Pro Enterprise. So did my peers in the industry (Branding/Creative). We are also buying a windows box to start looking into migrating as many other agencies already have. After 26 years - it looks like Apple will be shown the door if they don't release a proper Mac for professionals that serves Small/Medium sized businesses in the next 3 years. (After these iMac have been written down).
There is no excuse for Apple to cater to .001% of the market and claim "There you go - we love Pro's seeeeee..." It's such a massive 'miss' that we are seriously looking at Windows.
Can I have some of what you're smoking, cause it must be some pretty good shit for you to spew such BS with a straight and serious face...
The following $2905 workstation is equivalent to the $5999 Mac Pro both in terms of performance and in terms of using all workstation-class components:
$460 - Supermicro MBD-X11SPI-TF-O motherboard $749 - Xeon W-3223 $100 - Noctua NH-U12S DX-3647 CPU cooler $200 - 32 GB DDR4 2666 ECC RAM $525 - AMD Radeon Pro WX 7100 8GB $280 - Dune Pro case with a cheese grater $160 - Samsung 970 Pro NVMe SSD 512GB $231 - Seasonic Prime Ultra 850W 80+ Titanium PSU $200 - Windows 10 Pro -------------------- $2,905
That is not "just a $400 i9 processor jammed in a machine with a plain-as-day Northbridge, a few PCI-E slots, and a couple of I/O options". It is a bona fide workstation, with the same CPU, server-grade ECC RAM, workstation GPU that slightly outdoes the one in the Mac, etc.
Granted, the article said that build-your-own rigs could come in less expensive, but the authors seemed to imply that such builds would not really be comparable to a Mac Pro because they are made from consumer-grade parts. In any case, there's the equivalent+ custom workstation.
it would have been nice to have an option to downgrade the video card bullshit or leave it out altogether. Audio professionals don't need it.
Meanwhile, the price of a 12-core Xeon trashcan mac pro plunged to under 2k so I just bought one of those instead.
100% of professionals are looking for a powerful computer that they can upgrade/expand over time. 99.99% of professionals did not ask for this extremely expensive specific video editing computer. 99.99% of professionals will not buy this extremely expensive specific video editing computer. Therefore - the Mac Pro is in every way overpriced for the professional market.
Pointing to the .02% of professionals who might want this and making an argument in their support while ignoring pretty much the entire market... that's a stretch.
The article makes the comparison to several competitors. The machine starts at $6k, can be configured to be faster and has some user upgradeable components. What exactly are 99.99% looking for in a professional machine that starts at a lower price? What lower price and what specs would be to their liking? And what’s available on the Windows side of the ledger for those 99.99%?
The following $2905 workstation is equivalent to the $5999 Mac Pro both in terms of performance and in terms of using all workstation-class components:
$460 - Supermicro MBD-X11SPI-TF-O motherboard $749 - Xeon W-3223 $100 - Noctua NH-U12S DX-3647 CPU cooler $200 - 32 GB DDR4 2666 ECC RAM $525 - AMD Radeon Pro WX 7100 8GB $280 - Dune Pro case with a cheese grater $160 - Samsung 970 Pro NVMe SSD 512GB $231 - Seasonic Prime Ultra 850W 80+ Titanium PSU $200 - Windows 10 Pro -------------------- $2,905
That is not "just a $400 i9 processor jammed in a machine with a plain-as-day Northbridge, a few PCI-E slots, and a couple of I/O options". It is a bona fide workstation, with the same CPU, server-grade ECC RAM, workstation GPU that slightly outdoes the one in the Mac, etc.
Granted, the article said that build-your-own rigs could come in less expensive, but the authors seemed to imply that such builds would not really be comparable to a Mac Pro because they are made from consumer-grade parts. In any case, there's the equivalent+ custom workstation.
The component hardware quality may be the same -- no such implication was made that it wouldn't be. But, from a support standpoint, it isn't equivalent. From a labor of assembly standpoint, it isn't. Way fewer PCI-E and one whole X16 slot on yours. Four fewer RAM slots on yours. Zero Thunderbolt 3 on yours as far as I can tell. Louder. Weaker power supply. You do get more SATA slots, and more USB-A. And, like we said in the article, add more money for Windows for Workstations.
You want to do this? Go nuts. It's probably perfect for what you want to do. But, it isn't equivalent to the Mac Pro in every measure, and falls very short on several key metrics, like most comparisons with part pickers.
Maybe the fact those two headlines are NOT in conflict. The first article, this one we’re commenting on, specifically makes the point that the machine is user expandable and that it starts at $6k, and that a big component of the top end configuration is memory you can opt to buy elsewhere. And it also makes the point the machine’s price compares favorably with the competition in the Windows world.
And yes, as the second article you highlight points out, you can save big on RAM. And another, earlier, article that compared the top-end configuration to an HP Z series pointed out that HP charges $35k for that 1.5TB of RAM, versus $25k Apple charges.
100% of professionals are looking for a powerful computer that they can upgrade/expand over time. 99.99% of professionals did not ask for this extremely expensive specific video editing computer. 99.99% of professionals will not buy this extremely expensive specific video editing computer. Therefore - the Mac Pro is in every way overpriced for the professional market.
Pointing to the .02% of professionals who might want this and making an argument in their support while ignoring pretty much the entire market... that's a stretch.
Please define "professionals". Per Craig, their most populous professional users are developers, who are quite covered already with iMac 5K, iMac Pro, and MBPs. This work station isn't for devs, it's for a sub-set of users who need maximum power. These were the people who had been whining on these forums about needing to abandoned Mac because there weren't beefy-enough workstations.
100% of professionals are looking for a powerful computer that they can upgrade/expand over time. 99.99% of professionals did not ask for this extremely expensive specific video editing computer. 99.99% of professionals will not buy this extremely expensive specific video editing computer. Therefore - the Mac Pro is in every way overpriced for the professional market.
Pointing to the .02% of professionals who might want this and making an argument in their support while ignoring pretty much the entire market... that's a stretch.
Have you checked on what major production studios pay for cameras and lenses? Of course it's too expensive for the smaller guys but it isn't aimed at them. I suspect Apple probably wanted this for themselves and Apple TV + production too. Meanwhile, yes it would be nice if there were a mid range tower for the small guys but the iMac i9 5K and iMac Pro are not too shabby.
I bought a few of this years maxed out iMac's after they announced this Mac Pro Enterprise. So did my peers in the industry (Branding/Creative). We are also buying a windows box to start looking into migrating as many other agencies already have. After 26 years - it looks like Apple will be shown the door if they don't release a proper Mac for professionals that serves Small/Medium sized businesses in the next 3 years. (After these iMac have been written down).
There is no excuse for Apple to cater to .001% of the market and claim "There you go - we love Pro's seeeeee..." It's such a massive 'miss' that we are seriously looking at Windows.
So, what exactly is your use case, that the iMac 5K nor the iMac Pro is powerful enough for you? I don't know any graphic designers or copy writers who don't have enough power with the alternative high-end Mac options. Where are you falling down?
The following $2905 workstation is equivalent to the $5999 Mac Pro both in terms of performance and in terms of using all workstation-class components:
$460 - Supermicro MBD-X11SPI-TF-O motherboard $749 - Xeon W-3223 $100 - Noctua NH-U12S DX-3647 CPU cooler $200 - 32 GB DDR4 2666 ECC RAM $525 - AMD Radeon Pro WX 7100 8GB $280 - Dune Pro case with a cheese grater $160 - Samsung 970 Pro NVMe SSD 512GB $231 - Seasonic Prime Ultra 850W 80+ Titanium PSU $200 - Windows 10 Pro -------------------- $2,905
That is not "just a $400 i9 processor jammed in a machine with a plain-as-day Northbridge, a few PCI-E slots, and a couple of I/O options". It is a bona fide workstation, with the same CPU, server-grade ECC RAM, workstation GPU that slightly outdoes the one in the Mac, etc.
Granted, the article said that build-your-own rigs could come in less expensive, but the authors seemed to imply that such builds would not really be comparable to a Mac Pro because they are made from consumer-grade parts. In any case, there's the equivalent+ custom workstation.
Add in labor, and cohesive single-vendor service warranty.
Comments
How about you take the consideration that Xeon W with 3647 is an expensive platform?
You people want an i9 desktop, that's your problem, but don't expect a workstation to build two boards just to fulfill your need.
As for an 8TB SSD, sadly (for me) that option is still coming.
It is overpriced for you, and that's fine. It is not overpriced when compared to equivalent Windows Workstation machines, which is what this article is all about.
A single Xeon W-3223 supports 1TiB of memory with 64 PCIe lanes, along with 16.5 MiB cache. $750 MSRP.
Comparing a 3647 socket workstation to a consumer platform (i3/i5/i7/i9, Ryzen 3/5/7/9) isn't going to work as they're focusing on different segments, as of now, you'll never be able to add more than 128GiB of RAM or having two graphics card running with full lanes.
Those Xeon Ws are not the same as back then where the entry-level is pretty much another consumer brand with workstation technologies, it's built for the workstation in mind.
That's called the iMac Pro. Or if you want, you can get the baseline Mac Pro and upgrade as your needs change / expand.
On the commercial side, I had many, many customers, (GE, Oracle, ALPA, Teamsters, UPS to name a few) who did the same thing.
$460 - Supermicro MBD-X11SPI-TF-O motherboard
$749 - Xeon W-3223
$100 - Noctua NH-U12S DX-3647 CPU cooler
$200 - 32 GB DDR4 2666 ECC RAM
$525 - AMD Radeon Pro WX 7100 8GB
$280 - Dune Pro case with a cheese grater
$160 - Samsung 970 Pro NVMe SSD 512GB
$231 - Seasonic Prime Ultra 850W 80+ Titanium PSU
$200 - Windows 10 Pro
--------------------
$2,905
That is not "just a $400 i9 processor jammed in a machine with a plain-as-day Northbridge, a few PCI-E slots, and a couple of I/O options". It is a bona fide workstation, with the same CPU, server-grade ECC RAM, workstation GPU that slightly outdoes the one in the Mac, etc.
Granted, the article said that build-your-own rigs could come in less expensive, but the authors seemed to imply that such builds would not really be comparable to a Mac Pro because they are made from consumer-grade parts. In any case, there's the equivalent+ custom workstation.
Go ahead, compare the Cinebench scores.
You want to do this? Go nuts. It's probably perfect for what you want to do. But, it isn't equivalent to the Mac Pro in every measure, and falls very short on several key metrics, like most comparisons with part pickers.
Maybe the fact those two headlines are NOT in conflict. The first article, this one we’re commenting on, specifically makes the point that the machine is user expandable and that it starts at $6k, and that a big component of the top end configuration is memory you can opt to buy elsewhere. And it also makes the point the machine’s price compares favorably with the competition in the Windows world.
No, because RAM upgrades are optional and above the baseline price. What is difficult to understand for you?
So, what exactly is your use case, that the iMac 5K nor the iMac Pro is powerful enough for you? I don't know any graphic designers or copy writers who don't have enough power with the alternative high-end Mac options. Where are you falling down?