Apple nixed Xnor.ai's involvement in Pentagon's Project Maven following acquisition

Posted:
in General Discussion edited January 2020
Apple reportedly directed artificial intelligence startup Xnor.ai to cease work on U.S. Department of Defense initiative Project Maven after it acquired the company in January.


Source: DOD


Citing people familiar with the matter, The Information on Wednesday reports Xnor.ai was until recently working on Project Maven with fellow startup Clarifai. That ended shortly after Apple bought the Seattle-based Xnor.ai for a reported $200 million this month.

Officially announced in 2017, Project Maven seeks to develop computer vision technologies capable of autonomously analyzing image data captured by military drones and other systems. To achieve its goal, the government is working with a number of private sector specialists as it builds out the technology.

Spun out of the Allen Institute for Artificial Intelligence, Xnor.ai focused on low-power, edge-based artificial intelligence and machine learning algorithms that can run on-device instead of in the cloud.

As noted by the report, running AI processes like image recognition on an iPhone instead of offsite -- a practice that edge-based computing enables -- could raise privacy concerns. Always the bastion of consumer security, Apple likely recognized the implications -- and optics -- of Xnor.ai's involvement in Project Maven and terminated the work before the press caught wind of the relationship.

Unlike other big tech firms, like Google which pulled out of Project Maven after protests from employees, Apple typically distances itself from military contracting activities. The company has in the past supplied devices to various military branches on terms similar or identical to conventional enterprise sales. In 2008, Apple allowed then recently-acquired PA Semi to temporarily continue component supply deals with military equipment makers.
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 76
    As noted by the report, running AI processes like image recognition on an iPhone instead of offsite -- a practice that edge-based computing enables -- could raise privacy concerns. Always the bastion of consumer security, Apple likely recognized the implications -- and optics -- of Xnor.ai's involvement in Project Maven and terminated the work before the press caught wind of the relationship.
    The article is behind a paywall so I didn't read it but, what privacy concerns are raised if image recognition is performed on an iPhone rather than offsite? It seems like the opposite would be true, that running IR offsite would be more of a privacy concern. Am I missing something?
    EsquireCatscy_starkmanbloggerblogStrangeDaysjony0
  • Reply 2 of 76
    As noted by the report, running AI processes like image recognition on an iPhone instead of offsite -- a practice that edge-based computing enables -- could raise privacy concerns. Always the bastion of consumer security, Apple likely recognized the implications -- and optics -- of Xnor.ai's involvement in Project Maven and terminated the work before the press caught wind of the relationship.
    The article is behind a paywall so I didn't read it but, what privacy concerns are raised if image recognition is performed on an iPhone rather than offsite? It seems like the opposite would be true, that running IR offsite would be more of a privacy concern. Am I missing something?
    The article seems to be badly written.

    Doing things on the phone is good for privacy, BUT it it is very bad for Apple if their tech is used on standalone units in combat; which could mean targeting systems, or quickly analyzing a crowd to identify predetermined targets.

    The privacy concerns themselves aren’t really an issue whether the government analyze the data on a mobile or centralized unit. 
    GeorgeBMacd_2jony0
  • Reply 3 of 76
    All these Silicon Valley firms just do not like doing anything to help their country!  But that the way they feel!
    JWSCmaltzcat52damn_its_hot
  • Reply 4 of 76
    All these Silicon Valley firms just do not like doing anything to help their country!  But that the way they feel!
    Blind nationalism is cute. 

    “Helping their country” - Apple have businesses, employees and acquisitions in a long list of countries and pay taxes in even more. 

    Government contracts such as these pose an immediate conflict of interest. Want to be the next Huawei?


    rayboleavingthebiggRayz2016GeorgeBMacmdriftmeyerbloggerblogbsimpsenmailmeoffersStrangeDaysviclauyyc
  • Reply 5 of 76
    All these Silicon Valley firms just do not like doing anything to help their country!  But that the way they feel!
    Nationalism is horrible. A nation is the wrong unit to divvy up humanity. Patriotism is an excuse for extraordinary (extraordinarily bad) behavior.
    EsquireCatsrayboleavingthebiggRayz2016cy_starkmanGeorgeBMacbloggerblogbsimpsencornchipmailmeoffers
  • Reply 6 of 76
    All these Silicon Valley firms just do not like doing anything to help their country!  But that the way they feel!
    Blind nationalism is cute. 

    “Helping their country” - Apple have businesses, employees and acquisitions in a long list of countries and pay taxes in even more. 

    Government contracts such as these pose an immediate conflict of interest. Want to be the next Huawei?


    I agree with him somewhat. Just think about in WW 2 if all the best minds in the US don't help the government it will be harder and more costly in lives to defeat the Nazi. All Chinese corporates will be imperative to help the CCP so this will put the US at a great disadvantage.
    But then again, we're currently looking at Huawei with mistrustful eyes because of that so there's that aspect involved as well.
    edited January 2020 cornchip
  • Reply 7 of 76
    davidwdavidw Posts: 1,970member
    All these Silicon Valley firms just do not like doing anything to help their country!  But that the way they feel!
    That's not how I see it. Apple do not need government defense contract money for RD. Apple can afford to do all the RD themselves. This way, the government can not claim the technology for themselves or limit Apple use of the technology, that Apple developed.

     If Apple worked on a project for the US Dept. of Defense, that is partly or wholly funded by the US Dept. of Defense, who owns the technology developed under that deal? I imagine that if the technology proves highly useful, that the government can limit Apple use of the technology in their own products, as government money was used to help develop it.

     But if Apple develops the technology on their own, with their own money, the Dept. of Defense can always later pay Apple, for the use of that technology and won't be able tell Apple that they can't use the technology for their own products.

     Just because Apple halted work with the US Dept. of Defense project, it doesn't mean that Apple is no longer going to work on the technology for their own use.

     But I don't blame smaller tech companies for working with the US Dept. of Defense on developing new technology, that they otherwise could not afford to develop on their own.
    edited January 2020 bsimpsenJWSCcornchipjony0minicoffee
  • Reply 8 of 76
    Unlike other big tech firms, like Google which pulled out of Project Maven after protests from employees, Apple typically distances itself from military contracting activities. 
    What type of contracting could Apple do for the military besides selling phones? Considering the Army buys iPhones specifically for use with drones because of their performance, it seems like a strange thing to claim as a difference between Apple and the rest of the big tech firms.
    beowulfschmidt
  • Reply 9 of 76
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,225member
    All these Silicon Valley firms just do not like doing anything to help their country!  But that the way they feel!
    Blind nationalism is cute. 

    “Helping their country” - Apple have businesses, employees and acquisitions in a long list of countries and pay taxes in even more. 

    Government contracts such as these pose an immediate conflict of interest. Want to be the next Huawei?


    This company's work will continue unchanged. The only difference is that Apple wants to keep it in-house.

    There is no real conflict of interest in the classic sense.

    AI vision has multiple uses and of course, there are military uses among those, which may lead to ethical or moral issues.

    As for wanting to be the next Huawei. The answer is very much, yes. Being a world leader at every end of the ICT chain is where Apple would love to be. 

    It would play a part in world communications specifications, hold key patents, have no trouble building its own wireless chips and be an active participant future ICT moves.

    Apple could actually get in on the act thanks to Huawei. For a one time fee Huawei would make its technology available to a U.S firm in order to create a U.S competitor in 5G.

    The problem though would be an internal issue for U.S regulators and a massive logistics and know-how undertaking.

    For example AT&T wouldn't want Apple on its turf. Frequency auctions, engineering, manufacturing and millions of other issues would arise.

    The option does exist though, and at least one carrier is rumoured to be looking at it.
  • Reply 10 of 76
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    All these Silicon Valley firms just do not like doing anything to help their country!  But that the way they feel!
    Blind nationalism is cute. 

    “Helping their country” - Apple have businesses, employees and acquisitions in a long list of countries and pay taxes in even more. 

    Government contracts such as these pose an immediate conflict of interest. Want to be the next Huawei?



    Although there is not a shred of evidence that Huawei did any more along these lines than Apple did.   Just lots and lots and lots of propaganda.
    cincymacJWSC
  • Reply 11 of 76
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    matrix077 said:
    All these Silicon Valley firms just do not like doing anything to help their country!  But that the way they feel!
    Blind nationalism is cute. 

    “Helping their country” - Apple have businesses, employees and acquisitions in a long list of countries and pay taxes in even more. 

    Government contracts such as these pose an immediate conflict of interest. Want to be the next Huawei?


    I agree with him somewhat. Just think about in WW 2 if all the best minds in the US don't help the government it will be harder and more costly in lives to defeat the Nazi. All Chinese corporates will be imperative to help the CCP so this will put the US at a great disadvantage.
    But then again, we're currently looking at Huawei with mistrustful eyes because of that so there's that aspect involved as well.

    Comparing China to Nazi Germany or suggesting that we are at war with them is an example of the impact of propaganda on the poorly informed.
    polymniacincymacjony0
  • Reply 12 of 76
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    There is another aspect to this, one that I suspect influenced Apple's decision more than anything:   Becoming a defense contractor involves attaching a LOT of strings and hooks and requirements to an organization.

    Apple likely wanted no parts of the restrictions and possible government "reviews" that would likely arise.

    For example:  Would Tim have to obtain a security clearance?
  • Reply 13 of 76
    gordygordy Posts: 1,004member
    Seems Apple cancelled other contracts too, so it may not be so nefarious.  Wyze was using this company's tech for their person recognition in Wyze cams.  The partnership was nixed in December.

    FAQ for Person Detection and Edge AI – Wyze
    gatorguyd_2jony0
  • Reply 14 of 76
    DAalsethDAalseth Posts: 2,783member
    matrix077 said:
    All these Silicon Valley firms just do not like doing anything to help their country!  But that the way they feel!
    Blind nationalism is cute. 

    “Helping their country” - Apple have businesses, employees and acquisitions in a long list of countries and pay taxes in even more. 

    Government contracts such as these pose an immediate conflict of interest. Want to be the next Huawei?


    I agree with him somewhat. Just think about in WW 2 if all the best minds in the US don't help the government it will be harder and more costly in lives to defeat the Nazi. All Chinese corporates will be imperative to help the CCP so this will put the US at a great disadvantage.
    But then again, we're currently looking at Huawei with mistrustful eyes because of that so there's that aspect involved as well.
    OTOH just think about in WWII if the best minds in Germany didn't help the government. Then the war might not have happened at all.
    cornchipmailmeoffersjony0
  • Reply 15 of 76
    All these Silicon Valley firms just do not like doing anything to help their country!  But that the way they feel!
    Just like you support all the Chinese working in the US to take all their work and go back to China to help their country, and the best minds of Germany should back in the day all have helped build a more efficient "final solution"? No moral compass at all, but do everything for their country?
    mailmeoffersStrangeDays
  • Reply 16 of 76
    JWSCJWSC Posts: 1,203member
    All these Silicon Valley firms just do not like doing anything to help their country!  But that the way they feel!
    Nationalism is horrible. A nation is the wrong unit to divvy up humanity. Patriotism is an excuse for extraordinary (extraordinarily bad) behavior.
    Am I to interpret what you are saying as, nation states are a bad idea?  If so, what would you propose in its place?
    cat52
  • Reply 17 of 76
    JWSCJWSC Posts: 1,203member
    matrix077 said:
    All these Silicon Valley firms just do not like doing anything to help their country!  But that the way they feel!
    Blind nationalism is cute. 

    “Helping their country” - Apple have businesses, employees and acquisitions in a long list of countries and pay taxes in even more. 

    Government contracts such as these pose an immediate conflict of interest. Want to be the next Huawei?


    I agree with him somewhat. Just think about in WW 2 if all the best minds in the US don't help the government it will be harder and more costly in lives to defeat the Nazi. All Chinese corporates will be imperative to help the CCP so this will put the US at a great disadvantage.
    But then again, we're currently looking at Huawei with mistrustful eyes because of that so there's that aspect involved as well.

    Comparing China to Nazi Germany or suggesting that we are at war with them is an example of the impact of propaganda on the poorly informed.
    Uighurs anyone ...

    https://www.bbc.com/news/amp/world-asia-china-45147972
    DAalsethGG1StrangeDaystmayfastasleepcat52
  • Reply 18 of 76
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    JWSC said:
    All these Silicon Valley firms just do not like doing anything to help their country!  But that the way they feel!
    Nationalism is horrible. A nation is the wrong unit to divvy up humanity. Patriotism is an excuse for extraordinary (extraordinarily bad) behavior.
    Am I to interpret what you are saying as, nation states are a bad idea?  If so, what would you propose in its place?

    Nations and nationalism are not the same thing.   Look it up.
    Nationalism for instance, is one of the main propaganda tools used to rally the populace to get the fools to support wars and genocides as well as racism and xenophobia.   Hitler used it to his advantage in the 1930's.  Other dictators and wanna-be dictators also tap into it.
    mailmeoffersjony0
  • Reply 19 of 76
    dewmedewme Posts: 5,137member
    DAalseth said:
    matrix077 said:
    All these Silicon Valley firms just do not like doing anything to help their country!  But that the way they feel!
    Blind nationalism is cute. 

    “Helping their country” - Apple have businesses, employees and acquisitions in a long list of countries and pay taxes in even more. 

    Government contracts such as these pose an immediate conflict of interest. Want to be the next Huawei?


    I agree with him somewhat. Just think about in WW 2 if all the best minds in the US don't help the government it will be harder and more costly in lives to defeat the Nazi. All Chinese corporates will be imperative to help the CCP so this will put the US at a great disadvantage.
    But then again, we're currently looking at Huawei with mistrustful eyes because of that so there's that aspect involved as well.
    OTOH just think about in WWII if the best minds in Germany didn't help the government. Then the war might not have happened at all.
    Glad someone brought up the reality of the “other side of nationalism” or what I’d call destructive nationalism. At the extreme edge of the spectrum, which is very far removed from where we are with Apple in this case, you can look to WWII and recall how some German industrial giants were engaged in activities that are now seen as crimes against humanity in support of the war effort. One of these companies, Siemens, was actively engaged in the use of prisoner of war and concentration camp labor during WWII in support of the war on Germany’s side. Fortunately, in Siemens’ case, they never tried to cover up their crimes against humanity and paid a heavy price for their complicity. It’s worth investigating how they atoned for their admitted behaviors and recovered their corporate integrity to become the world class company they are today. Their story should serve as a lesson of what can happen when bad things happen to good companies, regardless of their corporate intentions. 

    I’m of the opinion that what we’re seeing here with Apple is more in line with the continuation of the ever growing and spreading influences of the military industrial complex that President Eisenhower warned us about in his farewell address, which you can easily research. As a staunch believer in the value of the negative feedback loop in control system theory I think it’s good to have reasoned pushback against the military industrial complex to keep it from running away in open loop fashion. The US must maintain a position of strength and war fighting capability commensurate with current, emerging, and anticipated threats. This capability should not be the predominant driver in the US economy. The US needs to maintain balance and control. Allowing large portions of the US’s industrial and technological might to exclude themselves from direct engagement in the military industrial complex is obviously a good thing imo, even though we pessimistically know that if the occasion arose the separation would vanish, and depending on the outcome, there could be hell to pay for crossing the streams and running open loop.  
    StrangeDaysDAalsethGG1jony0
  • Reply 20 of 76
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    The U.S. spends 1/3 of the total world defense spending and more than the next seven largest spenders combined.
    While we spend over half of our discretionary spending on defense, China spends it on their own people and development.  We respond by whining that they are a national security threat simply because they're passing us by as the world's largest economy.    One wonders if we will wise up before or after we go broke.
    jony0
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