China ready to retaliate against Apple after U.S. moves to ban chip shipments to Huawei

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Comments

  • Reply 81 of 91
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,909member
    tmay said:

    jcc said:
    tmay said:
    jcc said:
    tmay said:
    jcc said:

    jcc said:
    red oak said:
    avon b7 said:
    red oak said:
    Hey, how is that new Huawei operating system doing?  That is right - it’s a total zero 

    Wait for the US to pull all Android inc “open source” out of China.  Then the real fun will begin 

    China does not realize the hole its dug for itself.  Who in their right mind will ever build another factory there? 




    HarmonyOS 1.0 shipped last year on TVs. The kernel was on Huawei watches last year too. It is also running on some routers.

    HarmonyOS 2.0 was just released - on schedule. 

    It will interface with the Huawei Hi-Car module due to ship on 118 car models starting this June. 

    Parts of it are also tucked away in EMUI. 

    If rumours are your thing:

    https://www.gizchina.com/2020/05/02/huawei-to-replace-windows-10-with-harmonyos-2-0-in-its-pcs/

    The U.S cannot pull the 'Open Source' out of China (at least realistically). Huawei is an international company with non-Chinese companies all over the place. 

    For example, my data (and everyone else's in the EU) is managed by Aspiegel. An Irish company (owned by Huawei). 

    FWIW, In theory at least, HarmonyOS itself should go fully Open Source by August this year. 


    Of course Android open source can be pulled from Chinese mfg.   At best, it will be forked and China will be on its own having to learn to develop and support a large scale OS which it has never done before.   The market for that Chinese OS outside of China would be about "0".    Do you really think India would ever allow it? 

    And, how is the Huawei app ecosystem coming along?      How are they doing replicating all the Google apps and services that come with 'standard' Android?    Why have they not brought this OS to their cellphones? 


    Are you one of those people that’s never left their little village? You do realize the the Chinese can build anything we can. In fact, they can build it better, cheaper and faster. They build an entire Manhattan every year while we’re still working around the World Trade Center 19 years after 9/11. The Chinese are laughing at our sorry asses. They are now the best builders in the world. They export their building expertise while we can’t even build simple fast rails. So, no they Don’t need us. They have more engineers of all kinds than anyone in the world. So, the only thing stupid Trump did is expedite China’s timeline to overtake Silicon Valley. They are now invested in releasing a competing OS that will overtake Android in the world. Just give them a few years. Right now, they have their own ecosystem such as WeChat that’s entirely homegrown. Your kids are crazy about TikTok which is also Chinese built. So, yea keep thinking like the ignorant Trump.
    Oh, boy. The Fifty Cent Army is really out in force today. Today’s China is in the position they’re in due to long history of IP theft. They outright ape and steal every successful brand in the world and flood markets with shabby knockoffs.
    No, just an Asian American who has spent most of his life listening to the racists talk nonsense.

    Every nation has done the same. When China was the most powerful nation in the world it was your ancestors who stole from China. The compass, gunpowder, silk, pizza, noodles, and millions of other IP of their day were ripped off wholesale. Again google it. I don't hear you complaining about that?!

    Consider this payback.

    Yes, and that history lies at the heart of why they won't let Trump push them around and take advantage of them again:  They submitted to western bullying and colonization once.   They do not plan on ever letting it happen again -- even if the U.S. president thinks he's allowed to bully anybody who is not white and European.

    No, I am not Asian or even Asian American.   Just an American who listens and pays attention and is not blinded by extremism, ideology or political agendas.
    Laughable.

    The West thought that they could liberalize China with trade. That didn't and isn't going to happen, but worse is Xi Jiping's return to the Authoritarianism espoused by Mao.

    The U.S. and the rest of the West need to disengage from China, if for no other reasons than having all or most of their egg's in China's basket. Disengagement happens with or without Trump, but even I am surprised how Western Nations are not backing down on China having to provide an independent investigation of the origins of COVID19, instead of covering it up.

    https://globalvoices.org/2020/05/04/china-and-australia-brawl-over-call-for-independent-investigation-of-covid-19-origins/

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-australia-curbs/australian-pm-says-no-evidence-coronavirus-originated-in-china-laboratory-urges-inquiry-idUSKBN22D41F

    "Relations between Australia and China have been strained since the government began canvassing support in mid-April for an international inquiry into the outbreak. 

    Beijing sees the inquiry call as part of U.S.-led propaganda against China, while Morrison says the world needs to understand exactly what happened to prevent a repeat of an outbreak that has so far killed more than 200,000 people and shut down much of the global economy."

    China's not the only nation that has a leader that's more authoritarian. We have one as well. That's the problem with authoritarian leaders, they tend to rule by pushing their own flavor of b.s. China is willing to cooperate only when it is seen as helpful to the rest of the world. But Trump made the wrong move by trying to paint them as the enemy for spreading the disease purposefully. Under such b.s. why would any country be willing to cooperate? The blame game is the fastest way to shut down cooperation in any endeavor. Even a child understands this.
    At the same time, Chinese Media and Diplomats were pushing a bullshit story of the virus planted by U.S. agents in China. 

     So, given that many other countries don't believe that the virus was "accidentally or otherwise released from the lab in Wuhan", why is China still resisting providing the information, any information, on the origin to the rest of the world's medical communities.

    I do see Trump as an authoritarian, but at the same time, the citizensB of the U.S. still have the right to vote, even with the various roadblocks put up by Republicans to reduce turnout, especially in Democrat heavy counties, and states. Voters actually have choices in our elections, and can and do often vote people out of office. Chinese citizens have no voting rights.
    I fully understand the narrative China is pushing. But you should realize that this is mostly for domestic consumption since they want to maintain order in their own country and Xi’s power. They know as well as us that it’s false. The way to combats that is to just say that’s silly as if you’re telling a child that’s just told a silly lie. Not as Trump did by inventing and spreading his own. This is not grade school. 
    Trump is an anomaly in our politics, for the most part, but the West has seen a lot of populists of late, see Brexit, as an example.

    Counter to that, there are a number of nations, not including the U.S., that have called out China on the origin of COVID19, without the statement or implication that it had anything to do with the lab in Wuhan. China really needs to be transparent on the origin, and not respond as it has by reacting with threats of trade sanctions; this is backfiring on China.
    Eh? 

    It was the U.S that started the trade war, bullied and threatened allies, bungled its COVID-19 response, moved manufacturing to China, didn't have the foresight to see the strategic importance of 5G and singled out China's motor of technological advancement for destruction.

    This latest move is simply the nuclear option which will put the nail into the coffin of U.S trust and reliability. 

    This is literally new, uncharted territory in world trade and geopolitics. To my knowledge this has never happened before. Not even during the cold war.

    You simply can't decide who can use your country's technology after the fact. It is incomprehensible and the mark of a madman. 

    This is extreme protectionism by an administration that has lost control and now needs to stop China, almost by any means. 

    Trump went on record as saying China would not take a technological lead on his watch. Well, that is what was happening and instead of competing, he is hell bent on wrecking the system. 

    Iran sanctions fiasco. 
    TPP withdrawal. 
    TTIP stall
    WHO suspension
    Ukraine scandal
    COVID-19 vaccine meddling 
    ... 

    Now reactivating the trade war with China.

    The rest of the world can 'pound sand' as some say. The rest of the world understands this and the U.S will suffer as a result. 

    This move on TSMC will possibly be the move that unleashes a chain reaction with untold consequences and you say China should not respond with threats of trade sanctions? 

    That is exactly what it has to do. If you poke anyone hard enough they will turn around and poke you too. 

    Huawei tells it for what it is and we knew right from the outset. 

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-18/new-rules-designed-to-keep-u-s-tech-on-top-says-huawei-exec?srnd=premium-europe&utm_source=url_link




    edited May 2020
  • Reply 82 of 91
    tmaytmay Posts: 6,442member
    Eh? 

    It was the U.S that started the trade war, bullied and threatened allies, bungled its COVID-19 response, moved manufacturing to China, didn't have the foresight to see the strategic importance of 5G and singled out China's motor of technological advancement for destruction.

    This latest move is simply the nuclear option which will put the nail into the coffin of U.S trust and reliability. 

    This is literally new, uncharted territory in world trade and geopolitics. To my knowledge this has never happened before. Not even during the cold war.

    You simply can't decide who can use your country's technology after the fact. It is incomprehensible and the mark of a madman. 

    This is extreme protectionism by an administration that has lost control and now needs to stop China, almost by any means. 

    Trump went on record as saying China would not take a technological lead on his watch. Well, that is what was happening and instead of competing, he is hell bent on wrecking the system. 

    Iran sanctions fiasco. 
    TPP withdrawal. 
    TTIP stall
    WHO suspension
    Ukraine scandal
    COVID-19 vaccine meddling 
    ... 

    Now reactivating the trade war with China.

    The rest of the world can 'pound sand' as some say. The rest of the world understands this and the U.S will suffer as a result. 

    This move on TSMC will possibly be the move that unleashes a chain reaction with untold consequences and you say China should not respond with threats of trade sanctions? 

    That is exactly what it has to do. If you poke anyone hard enough they will turn around and poke you too. 

    Huawei tells it for what it is and we knew right from the outset. 

    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2020-05-18/new-rules-designed-to-keep-u-s-tech-on-top-says-huawei-exec?srnd=premium-europe&utm_source=url_link
    I don't believe a word of what Huawei says. I'll let third parties report on this.
    edited May 2020
  • Reply 83 of 91
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    tmay said:

    jcc said:
    tmay said:
    jcc said:
    tmay said:
    jcc said:

    jcc said:
    red oak said:
    avon b7 said:
    red oak said:
    Hey, how is that new Huawei operating system doing?  That is right - it’s a total zero 

    Wait for the US to pull all Android inc “open source” out of China.  Then the real fun will begin 

    China does not realize the hole its dug for itself.  Who in their right mind will ever build another factory there? 




    HarmonyOS 1.0 shipped last year on TVs. The kernel was on Huawei watches last year too. It is also running on some routers.

    HarmonyOS 2.0 was just released - on schedule. 

    It will interface with the Huawei Hi-Car module due to ship on 118 car models starting this June. 

    Parts of it are also tucked away in EMUI. 

    If rumours are your thing:

    https://www.gizchina.com/2020/05/02/huawei-to-replace-windows-10-with-harmonyos-2-0-in-its-pcs/

    The U.S cannot pull the 'Open Source' out of China (at least realistically). Huawei is an international company with non-Chinese companies all over the place. 

    For example, my data (and everyone else's in the EU) is managed by Aspiegel. An Irish company (owned by Huawei). 

    FWIW, In theory at least, HarmonyOS itself should go fully Open Source by August this year. 


    Of course Android open source can be pulled from Chinese mfg.   At best, it will be forked and China will be on its own having to learn to develop and support a large scale OS which it has never done before.   The market for that Chinese OS outside of China would be about "0".    Do you really think India would ever allow it? 

    And, how is the Huawei app ecosystem coming along?      How are they doing replicating all the Google apps and services that come with 'standard' Android?    Why have they not brought this OS to their cellphones? 


    Are you one of those people that’s never left their little village? You do realize the the Chinese can build anything we can. In fact, they can build it better, cheaper and faster. They build an entire Manhattan every year while we’re still working around the World Trade Center 19 years after 9/11. The Chinese are laughing at our sorry asses. They are now the best builders in the world. They export their building expertise while we can’t even build simple fast rails. So, no they Don’t need us. They have more engineers of all kinds than anyone in the world. So, the only thing stupid Trump did is expedite China’s timeline to overtake Silicon Valley. They are now invested in releasing a competing OS that will overtake Android in the world. Just give them a few years. Right now, they have their own ecosystem such as WeChat that’s entirely homegrown. Your kids are crazy about TikTok which is also Chinese built. So, yea keep thinking like the ignorant Trump.
    Oh, boy. The Fifty Cent Army is really out in force today. Today’s China is in the position they’re in due to long history of IP theft. They outright ape and steal every successful brand in the world and flood markets with shabby knockoffs.
    No, just an Asian American who has spent most of his life listening to the racists talk nonsense.

    Every nation has done the same. When China was the most powerful nation in the world it was your ancestors who stole from China. The compass, gunpowder, silk, pizza, noodles, and millions of other IP of their day were ripped off wholesale. Again google it. I don't hear you complaining about that?!

    Consider this payback.

    Yes, and that history lies at the heart of why they won't let Trump push them around and take advantage of them again:  They submitted to western bullying and colonization once.   They do not plan on ever letting it happen again -- even if the U.S. president thinks he's allowed to bully anybody who is not white and European.

    No, I am not Asian or even Asian American.   Just an American who listens and pays attention and is not blinded by extremism, ideology or political agendas.
    Laughable.

    The West thought that they could liberalize China with trade. That didn't and isn't going to happen, but worse is Xi Jiping's return to the Authoritarianism espoused by Mao.

    The U.S. and the rest of the West need to disengage from China, if for no other reasons than having all or most of their egg's in China's basket. Disengagement happens with or without Trump, but even I am surprised how Western Nations are not backing down on China having to provide an independent investigation of the origins of COVID19, instead of covering it up.

    https://globalvoices.org/2020/05/04/china-and-australia-brawl-over-call-for-independent-investigation-of-covid-19-origins/

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-australia-curbs/australian-pm-says-no-evidence-coronavirus-originated-in-china-laboratory-urges-inquiry-idUSKBN22D41F

    "Relations between Australia and China have been strained since the government began canvassing support in mid-April for an international inquiry into the outbreak. 

    Beijing sees the inquiry call as part of U.S.-led propaganda against China, while Morrison says the world needs to understand exactly what happened to prevent a repeat of an outbreak that has so far killed more than 200,000 people and shut down much of the global economy."

    China's not the only nation that has a leader that's more authoritarian. We have one as well. That's the problem with authoritarian leaders, they tend to rule by pushing their own flavor of b.s. China is willing to cooperate only when it is seen as helpful to the rest of the world. But Trump made the wrong move by trying to paint them as the enemy for spreading the disease purposefully. Under such b.s. why would any country be willing to cooperate? The blame game is the fastest way to shut down cooperation in any endeavor. Even a child understands this.
    At the same time, Chinese Media and Diplomats were pushing a bullshit story of the virus planted by U.S. agents in China. 

     So, given that many other countries don't believe that the virus was "accidentally or otherwise released from the lab in Wuhan", why is China still resisting providing the information, any information, on the origin to the rest of the world's medical communities.

    I do see Trump as an authoritarian, but at the same time, the citizensB of the U.S. still have the right to vote, even with the various roadblocks put up by Republicans to reduce turnout, especially in Democrat heavy counties, and states. Voters actually have choices in our elections, and can and do often vote people out of office. Chinese citizens have no voting rights.
    I fully understand the narrative China is pushing. But you should realize that this is mostly for domestic consumption since they want to maintain order in their own country and Xi’s power. They know as well as us that it’s false. The way to combats that is to just say that’s silly as if you’re telling a child that’s just told a silly lie. Not as Trump did by inventing and spreading his own. This is not grade school. 
    Trump is an anomaly in our politics, for the most part, but the West has seen a lot of populists of late, see Brexit, as an example.

    Counter to that, there are a number of nations, not including the U.S., that have called out China on the origin of COVID19, without the statement or implication that it had anything to do with the lab in Wuhan. China really needs to be transparent on the origin, and not respond as it has by reacting with threats of trade sanctions; this is backfiring on China.

    The experts already called Bull!
  • Reply 84 of 91
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    tmay said:

    jcc said:
    tmay said:
    jcc said:
    tmay said:
    jcc said:

    jcc said:
    red oak said:
    avon b7 said:
    red oak said:
    Hey, how is that new Huawei operating system doing?  That is right - it’s a total zero 

    Wait for the US to pull all Android inc “open source” out of China.  Then the real fun will begin 

    China does not realize the hole its dug for itself.  Who in their right mind will ever build another factory there? 




    HarmonyOS 1.0 shipped last year on TVs. The kernel was on Huawei watches last year too. It is also running on some routers.

    HarmonyOS 2.0 was just released - on schedule. 

    It will interface with the Huawei Hi-Car module due to ship on 118 car models starting this June. 

    Parts of it are also tucked away in EMUI. 

    If rumours are your thing:

    https://www.gizchina.com/2020/05/02/huawei-to-replace-windows-10-with-harmonyos-2-0-in-its-pcs/

    The U.S cannot pull the 'Open Source' out of China (at least realistically). Huawei is an international company with non-Chinese companies all over the place. 

    For example, my data (and everyone else's in the EU) is managed by Aspiegel. An Irish company (owned by Huawei). 

    FWIW, In theory at least, HarmonyOS itself should go fully Open Source by August this year. 


    Of course Android open source can be pulled from Chinese mfg.   At best, it will be forked and China will be on its own having to learn to develop and support a large scale OS which it has never done before.   The market for that Chinese OS outside of China would be about "0".    Do you really think India would ever allow it? 

    And, how is the Huawei app ecosystem coming along?      How are they doing replicating all the Google apps and services that come with 'standard' Android?    Why have they not brought this OS to their cellphones? 


    Are you one of those people that’s never left their little village? You do realize the the Chinese can build anything we can. In fact, they can build it better, cheaper and faster. They build an entire Manhattan every year while we’re still working around the World Trade Center 19 years after 9/11. The Chinese are laughing at our sorry asses. They are now the best builders in the world. They export their building expertise while we can’t even build simple fast rails. So, no they Don’t need us. They have more engineers of all kinds than anyone in the world. So, the only thing stupid Trump did is expedite China’s timeline to overtake Silicon Valley. They are now invested in releasing a competing OS that will overtake Android in the world. Just give them a few years. Right now, they have their own ecosystem such as WeChat that’s entirely homegrown. Your kids are crazy about TikTok which is also Chinese built. So, yea keep thinking like the ignorant Trump.
    Oh, boy. The Fifty Cent Army is really out in force today. Today’s China is in the position they’re in due to long history of IP theft. They outright ape and steal every successful brand in the world and flood markets with shabby knockoffs.
    No, just an Asian American who has spent most of his life listening to the racists talk nonsense.

    Every nation has done the same. When China was the most powerful nation in the world it was your ancestors who stole from China. The compass, gunpowder, silk, pizza, noodles, and millions of other IP of their day were ripped off wholesale. Again google it. I don't hear you complaining about that?!

    Consider this payback.

    Yes, and that history lies at the heart of why they won't let Trump push them around and take advantage of them again:  They submitted to western bullying and colonization once.   They do not plan on ever letting it happen again -- even if the U.S. president thinks he's allowed to bully anybody who is not white and European.

    No, I am not Asian or even Asian American.   Just an American who listens and pays attention and is not blinded by extremism, ideology or political agendas.
    Laughable.

    The West thought that they could liberalize China with trade. That didn't and isn't going to happen, but worse is Xi Jiping's return to the Authoritarianism espoused by Mao.

    The U.S. and the rest of the West need to disengage from China, if for no other reasons than having all or most of their egg's in China's basket. Disengagement happens with or without Trump, but even I am surprised how Western Nations are not backing down on China having to provide an independent investigation of the origins of COVID19, instead of covering it up.

    https://globalvoices.org/2020/05/04/china-and-australia-brawl-over-call-for-independent-investigation-of-covid-19-origins/

    https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-australia-curbs/australian-pm-says-no-evidence-coronavirus-originated-in-china-laboratory-urges-inquiry-idUSKBN22D41F

    "Relations between Australia and China have been strained since the government began canvassing support in mid-April for an international inquiry into the outbreak. 

    Beijing sees the inquiry call as part of U.S.-led propaganda against China, while Morrison says the world needs to understand exactly what happened to prevent a repeat of an outbreak that has so far killed more than 200,000 people and shut down much of the global economy."

    China's not the only nation that has a leader that's more authoritarian. We have one as well. That's the problem with authoritarian leaders, they tend to rule by pushing their own flavor of b.s. China is willing to cooperate only when it is seen as helpful to the rest of the world. But Trump made the wrong move by trying to paint them as the enemy for spreading the disease purposefully. Under such b.s. why would any country be willing to cooperate? The blame game is the fastest way to shut down cooperation in any endeavor. Even a child understands this.
    At the same time, Chinese Media and Diplomats were pushing a bullshit story of the virus planted by U.S. agents in China. 

     So, given that many other countries don't believe that the virus was "accidentally or otherwise released from the lab in Wuhan", why is China still resisting providing the information, any information, on the origin to the rest of the world's medical communities.

    I do see Trump as an authoritarian, but at the same time, the citizensB of the U.S. still have the right to vote, even with the various roadblocks put up by Republicans to reduce turnout, especially in Democrat heavy counties, and states. Voters actually have choices in our elections, and can and do often vote people out of office. Chinese citizens have no voting rights.
    I fully understand the narrative China is pushing. But you should realize that this is mostly for domestic consumption since they want to maintain order in their own country and Xi’s power. They know as well as us that it’s false. The way to combats that is to just say that’s silly as if you’re telling a child that’s just told a silly lie. Not as Trump did by inventing and spreading his own. This is not grade school. 
    Trump is an anomaly in our politics, ....
    Trump an anomaly?
    No, he's the result of 20 years of unopposed propaganda being spewed by FauxNews, Linbaugh and a host of other right wing propaganda outlets spewing fear, hate and distrust of our own government. 

    He is proof of what Lincoln told us:   "You can fool some of the people all of the time..."
    edited May 2020
  • Reply 85 of 91
    gatorguygatorguy Posts: 24,394member
  • Reply 86 of 91
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 33,407member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Anilu_777 said:
    lkrupp said:
    With the number of Huawei cheerleaders both here and in Europe I wonder what happens when it’s proven without a doubt that Huawei tech is used for espionage by the CCP? Think about it and use common sense. For a brutal, totalitarian dictatorship the temptation is simply too irresistible to ignore, especially when there will be no repercussions when it is proven. 
    The problem is (and I’m agreeing with you) that by the time Huawei has managed to convince enough governments to allow it to build and sell infrastructure it’s too costly and too late to pull it out. We have to be prudent and have foresight to prevent it. 

    And Apple will need to shift more production to Vietnam and other places to make sure it’s not affected by the CCP policies as well as American ones. It seems Apple is caught in the middle - seen as American even though its contract with Foxconn creates thousands of jobs for Chinese workers, and seen as Chinese by American policy makers for that same reason. 
    Apple also wants to sell in China. What good is moving production if you lose access to one of your biggest markets?

    If Huawei phones can't be distributed fairly in the U.S. why can't China do exactly the same with iPhones?

    Just two years ago AT&T was fired up and ready to give Huawei it first major carrier distribution deal on U.S soil. Then it was pressured out of the deal by government.

    As for Boeing, if things weren't already bad enough (the MAX fiasco), China just cancelled orders for nearly 30 MAX aircraft and the prospect of losing all Boeing orders from China (trillions of dollar's worth over the coming decades) would destroy the commercial aviation business in the U.S. Of course Airbus is salivating right now having had a special delegation working with China for over a year already.

    Let's not forget that trillions of dollars (euros!) going to Airbus would not come 'free' . Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.


    That’s a uniquely uninformed post regarding Boeing. China only made up 13.6% of Boeing’s total revenues in 2018.
    It is not uninformed. It was a forward facing point. Boeing is looking to a deal worth trillions in revenues from China over the next two decades with a large increase in business. To be exact, Boeing set China's aircraft needs at three trillion dollars. 

    Losing that would have a major impact (on top of the billions that the MAX has cost the company) . Now we have COVID-19 likely to send some airlines out of business and a dramatic reshaping of the airline industry with COVID-19 related losses set to leave a mark for up to possibly five years.

    Losing business is bad enough. Seeing it go straight to your biggest competitor is worse still. On top of that China is pumping up its own aviation business. Long term we are going to see another major competitor in this field. 

    If Boeing gets whacked as a result of this move it is going to be majorly affected. 
    “...trillions (of dollars) over the next two decades...”

    You obviously don’t know how business OR reality works. No business plans for decades of sales in advance.
  • Reply 87 of 91
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 33,407member
    gatorguy said:
    I suspect the pro-China nonsense flooding forums and places like Twitter and Facebook are all this “army” of China funded trolls. It’s quite transparent.
  • Reply 88 of 91
    jccjcc Posts: 333member
    gatorguy said:
    I suspect the pro-China nonsense flooding forums and places like Twitter and Facebook are all this “army” of China funded trolls. It’s quite transparent.
    Yup, no different than Trump and his cronies doing the same. Fake leaders like him and Xi, Putin, etc. should be removed from office. It's always the regular citizens who end up suffering.
    GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 89 of 91
    avon b7avon b7 Posts: 7,909member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Anilu_777 said:
    lkrupp said:
    With the number of Huawei cheerleaders both here and in Europe I wonder what happens when it’s proven without a doubt that Huawei tech is used for espionage by the CCP? Think about it and use common sense. For a brutal, totalitarian dictatorship the temptation is simply too irresistible to ignore, especially when there will be no repercussions when it is proven. 
    The problem is (and I’m agreeing with you) that by the time Huawei has managed to convince enough governments to allow it to build and sell infrastructure it’s too costly and too late to pull it out. We have to be prudent and have foresight to prevent it. 

    And Apple will need to shift more production to Vietnam and other places to make sure it’s not affected by the CCP policies as well as American ones. It seems Apple is caught in the middle - seen as American even though its contract with Foxconn creates thousands of jobs for Chinese workers, and seen as Chinese by American policy makers for that same reason. 
    Apple also wants to sell in China. What good is moving production if you lose access to one of your biggest markets?

    If Huawei phones can't be distributed fairly in the U.S. why can't China do exactly the same with iPhones?

    Just two years ago AT&T was fired up and ready to give Huawei it first major carrier distribution deal on U.S soil. Then it was pressured out of the deal by government.

    As for Boeing, if things weren't already bad enough (the MAX fiasco), China just cancelled orders for nearly 30 MAX aircraft and the prospect of losing all Boeing orders from China (trillions of dollar's worth over the coming decades) would destroy the commercial aviation business in the U.S. Of course Airbus is salivating right now having had a special delegation working with China for over a year already.

    Let's not forget that trillions of dollars (euros!) going to Airbus would not come 'free' . Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.


    That’s a uniquely uninformed post regarding Boeing. China only made up 13.6% of Boeing’s total revenues in 2018.
    It is not uninformed. It was a forward facing point. Boeing is looking to a deal worth trillions in revenues from China over the next two decades with a large increase in business. To be exact, Boeing set China's aircraft needs at three trillion dollars. 

    Losing that would have a major impact (on top of the billions that the MAX has cost the company) . Now we have COVID-19 likely to send some airlines out of business and a dramatic reshaping of the airline industry with COVID-19 related losses set to leave a mark for up to possibly five years.

    Losing business is bad enough. Seeing it go straight to your biggest competitor is worse still. On top of that China is pumping up its own aviation business. Long term we are going to see another major competitor in this field. 

    If Boeing gets whacked as a result of this move it is going to be majorly affected. 
    “...trillions (of dollars) over the next two decades...”

    You obviously don’t know how business OR reality works. No business plans for decades of sales in advance.
    The airline industry is not any old industry. There are huge infrastructure and services numbers involved and very long term planning. 

    The three trillion dollar figure was an estimate from Boeing itself and runs through to 2038.

    Globally, Boeing projected $6.8 trillion worth of airplane sales for the industry by 2038 with a further $9.1 trillion in services.

    At the time of that estimate (2019), China made up a third of Boeing's deliveries IIRC. Actually all this is from memory. I'm not sure if it was deliveries or business. Either way a massive market. 

    China already has a plan for orders. Obviously not 20 year's worth but a continual process of order and delivery as it plans for its needs.

    The point was, if those orders get cancelled (27 MAX orders already have been) and China switches to Airbus, those infrastructure costs also switch and they won't go back.

    In Boeing's own forecast, $16trillion is up for grabs through to 2038, and China will make up a huge chunk of that. The biggest chunk in fact (and by a wide margin). To give you an idea, China is forecast to need almost double the deliveries of the region in second place (the U.S).

    Claiming that losing China would be a disaster for Boeing is actually an understatement


    edited May 2020 GeorgeBMac
  • Reply 90 of 91
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    avon b7 said:
    avon b7 said:
    Anilu_777 said:
    lkrupp said:
    With the number of Huawei cheerleaders both here and in Europe I wonder what happens when it’s proven without a doubt that Huawei tech is used for espionage by the CCP? Think about it and use common sense. For a brutal, totalitarian dictatorship the temptation is simply too irresistible to ignore, especially when there will be no repercussions when it is proven. 
    The problem is (and I’m agreeing with you) that by the time Huawei has managed to convince enough governments to allow it to build and sell infrastructure it’s too costly and too late to pull it out. We have to be prudent and have foresight to prevent it. 

    And Apple will need to shift more production to Vietnam and other places to make sure it’s not affected by the CCP policies as well as American ones. It seems Apple is caught in the middle - seen as American even though its contract with Foxconn creates thousands of jobs for Chinese workers, and seen as Chinese by American policy makers for that same reason. 
    Apple also wants to sell in China. What good is moving production if you lose access to one of your biggest markets?

    If Huawei phones can't be distributed fairly in the U.S. why can't China do exactly the same with iPhones?

    Just two years ago AT&T was fired up and ready to give Huawei it first major carrier distribution deal on U.S soil. Then it was pressured out of the deal by government.

    As for Boeing, if things weren't already bad enough (the MAX fiasco), China just cancelled orders for nearly 30 MAX aircraft and the prospect of losing all Boeing orders from China (trillions of dollar's worth over the coming decades) would destroy the commercial aviation business in the U.S. Of course Airbus is salivating right now having had a special delegation working with China for over a year already.

    Let's not forget that trillions of dollars (euros!) going to Airbus would not come 'free' . Nudge, nudge, wink, wink.


    That’s a uniquely uninformed post regarding Boeing. China only made up 13.6% of Boeing’s total revenues in 2018.
    It is not uninformed. It was a forward facing point. Boeing is looking to a deal worth trillions in revenues from China over the next two decades with a large increase in business. To be exact, Boeing set China's aircraft needs at three trillion dollars. 

    Losing that would have a major impact (on top of the billions that the MAX has cost the company) . Now we have COVID-19 likely to send some airlines out of business and a dramatic reshaping of the airline industry with COVID-19 related losses set to leave a mark for up to possibly five years.

    Losing business is bad enough. Seeing it go straight to your biggest competitor is worse still. On top of that China is pumping up its own aviation business. Long term we are going to see another major competitor in this field. 

    If Boeing gets whacked as a result of this move it is going to be majorly affected. 
    “...trillions (of dollars) over the next two decades...”

    You obviously don’t know how business OR reality works. No business plans for decades of sales in advance.

    Or, perhaps you don't understand how the airliner business works.
  • Reply 91 of 91
    GeorgeBMacGeorgeBMac Posts: 11,421member
    gatorguy said:
    I suspect the pro-China nonsense flooding forums and places like Twitter and Facebook are all this “army” of China funded trolls. It’s quite transparent.

    Unlike Russia flooding forums with its right wing, Pro-Trump trolls -- as well as internal right wing organizations doing the same -- there is no evidence of China initiating such a thing -- even though they should.   Trump and his right wing crazies have been spreading disinformation about China and conducting a smear campaign for three years now and, China has absorbed it.   That may be ending and they may soon begin hitting him back -- but they won't need either disinformation or smear tactics to discredit him.   Just the truth -- which is what I have always posted.

    Unfortunately, the American right wingers are so incredibly brainwashed they can no longer tell Trump's fantasies from reality.

    And, of course, like Trump, when they lose an argument they will resort to smear campaigns to save face -- in this case, calling any who speak truth a "China Trolls".  It's how their little pea brains work.
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