Glad the ports many here declared "legacy" are back. Are they still "legacy" now?
Apple doesn't use "legacy" ports ever. So, they are the "future" from now onwards .
Did you notice how they said they were bringing HDMI and the SD card reader to the MacBook Pro. No mention of restoring them or bringing them back, just pretend like they were never there previously
Interesting conspiracy theory but with the TouchBar the person specifically said “replacing the TouchBar”, so it invalidates the suggestion that they’re trying to rewrite history.
They were talking specifically about the HDMI and SD card which Apple took away for no reason at all. Now, because Apple realized they screwed up because EVERYONE wanted and actually used those ports, they added them back.
This and other things with other products is the massive pull back from the JI time.
I’m pretty certain that Apple had what they thought were good reasons to take ports away and replace them with different ports. Not all of us may agree with them on that, but they didn’t do it willy nilly. They were likely doing what they had so successfully done in the past, many times, which was forcing a newer technology to replace an older one. This time it was too early. Maybe it will happen in a few more years.
fastasleep said: I have never needed or plan to need HDMI.
How nice for you - you can just ignore it and the machine still functions. However for those that need it, if it's not there they have to resort to idiotic solutions like dongles. Yes, dongles are a much saner solution - especially for a pro machine. Good god the amount of fuss by the anti port people is beyond ridiculous. If you don't like the ports then stick with the original M1 MacBook Pro. Have at it. Better to have a port and not need it, then need it and not have it.
I wasn't complaining, I was just stating a fact. It's fine that it's back, and if it gets people to stfu until we get to an HDMI-free world (it'll come), then great. I ordered a fully maxed out 16" so clearly I'm not making a fuss over it.
Totally, because now we can use and USB c charger from almost anywhere, even if the charge will be slow. But for emergencies…
It's doubly nice - you can use the charger for your MBP with either MagSafe or USB C and you can also plug your iPad, iPhone or other devices (although you could also plug them directly into the MBP)
Totally, because now we can use and USB c charger from almost anywhere, even if the charge will be slow. But for emergencies…
It's doubly nice - you can use the charger for your MBP with either MagSafe or USB C and you can also plug your iPad, iPhone or other devices (although you could also plug them directly into the MBP)
With the previous MagSafe Apple wouldn't license the MagSafe connector to any third parties, to the effect that some of those third parties would buy the power supplies, and take them apart in order to sell e.g. MagSafe external battery packs. The fact that the cable is being sold separately would make this kind of thing much easier, as I assume Apple still won't be licensing it.
The notch has been there all along, you just couldn’t see it until they added screen to the blacked out bezel around it. 😉
That’s exactly what I was going to say. They didn’t lower the notch into their standard screen ratio, they raised the screen around it, giving a greater height to length, giving us more screen.
Indeed. Though that’s what they did to the iPhone — and then some — and the complainers say it’s a step backward or whatever. Some people won’t be happy with this **extra** screen space they get now.
I recall that time Steve was fielding questions at a meeting and someone in the crowd said he (Steve) didn’t know what he was talking about, etc.
Steve’s response, in an almost exasperated voice, after a pause to consider it: “You can please some of the people, some of the time…”
melgross said: These are by no means cheap chips. As Anandtech just said about these new chips;”Apple invested in silicon.” Meaning that these are large, and expensive. There is no other way to do what these do on chip. ...
Yeah, maybe it is just a matter of expectations. I'm happy to see the performance and the future looks bright. But, the prices are also a bit of a shocker. I think we were lead to believe that Intel was limited on the 'low' end by heat/performance, and then too costly going into Xeons (leading to Mac Pro pricing). I had hoped we'd see the middle filled in a bit once Apple was free with their own architecture and control over it all.
Now, it looks like we're back to the same problem. The affordable machines don't have the performance for the prosumer or independent pro, and the higher-end machines cost even more than they used to. My current setup, a Mac mini i7 w/ eGPU might be a bit slower in terms of CPU power and uses more power, but something similar in Apple's new lineup is over $3500.
I'm hoping maybe a lot of that price is in the screen and unnecessary laptop 'stuff' and await the mini 'Pro', but I'm a bit worried it will be out of my price range for anything useable.
melgross said: I’m pretty certain that Apple had what they thought were good reasons to take ports away and replace them with different ports. Not all of us may agree with them on that, but they didn’t do it willy nilly. They were likely doing what they had so successfully done in the past, many times, which was forcing a newer technology to replace an older one. This time it was too early. Maybe it will happen in a few more years.
I think maybe it was being a bit overzealous on that front, combined with an industrial design wish for the look of port-uniformity. The problem, as Marco Arment put it one day, is that when some large percentage of your users *need* a dongle to do what they need to do, it is a problem.
And, like I've said since this whole thing started, when I've got a bunch of USB-C devices I can just plug into a machine with a bunch of USB-C ports, I'll be happy with it. But, that day is still a long way off and may never come. The only people who really benefited (and that's questionable) are those who bring their laptop between two locations with 'docks'. (The problem being dock ports aren't oven equal to built in ones.)
I don't need an HDMI or SD card reader on my laptop (should I ever get one again), but a lot of Apple's laptop users use those ports all the time (ex. how many people have to plug into a projector at the office?). It is good to see them back, and having those ports doesn't hurt me at all (if I don't need them).
melgross said: These are by no means cheap chips. As Anandtech just said about these new chips;”Apple invested in silicon.” Meaning that these are large, and expensive. There is no other way to do what these do on chip. ...
Yeah, maybe it is just a matter of expectations. I'm happy to see the performance and the future looks bright. But, the prices are also a bit of a shocker. I think we were lead to believe that Intel was limited on the 'low' end by heat/performance, and then too costly going into Xeons (leading to Mac Pro pricing). I had hoped we'd see the middle filled in a bit once Apple was free with their own architecture and control over it all.
Now, it looks like we're back to the same problem. The affordable machines don't have the performance for the prosumer or independent pro, and the higher-end machines cost even more than they used to. My current setup, a Mac mini i7 w/ eGPU might be a bit slower in terms of CPU power and uses more power, but something similar in Apple's new lineup is over $3500.
I'm hoping maybe a lot of that price is in the screen and unnecessary laptop 'stuff' and await the mini 'Pro', but I'm a bit worried it will be out of my price range for anything useable.
melgross said: I’m pretty certain that Apple had what they thought were good reasons to take ports away and replace them with different ports. Not all of us may agree with them on that, but they didn’t do it willy nilly. They were likely doing what they had so successfully done in the past, many times, which was forcing a newer technology to replace an older one. This time it was too early. Maybe it will happen in a few more years.
I think maybe it was being a bit overzealous on that front, combined with an industrial design wish for the look of port-uniformity. The problem, as Marco Arment put it one day, is that when some large percentage of your users *need* a dongle to do what they need to do, it is a problem.
And, like I've said since this whole thing started, when I've got a bunch of USB-C devices I can just plug into a machine with a bunch of USB-C ports, I'll be happy with it. But, that day is still a long way off and may never come. The only people who really benefited (and that's questionable) are those who bring their laptop between two locations with 'docks'. (The problem being dock ports aren't oven equal to built in ones.)
I don't need an HDMI or SD card reader on my laptop (should I ever get one again), but a lot of Apple's laptop users use those ports all the time (ex. how many people have to plug into a projector at the office?). It is good to see them back, and having those ports doesn't hurt me at all (if I don't need them).
Also, don’t underestimate the cost of the screen. I had an iMac 5K in my office (I remember the sticker shock when I bought it.) I decided to move it to my teenager’s room for schoolwork and get an external monitor for my MBP and was shocked at the price of 5k monitors. Suddenly the price of the iMac made sense.
Also, don’t underestimate the cost of the screen. I had an iMac 5K in my office (I remember the sticker shock when I bought it.) I decided to move it to my teenager’s room for schoolwork and get an external monitor for my MBP and was shocked at the price of 5k monitors. Suddenly the price of the iMac made sense.
Yeah, my hope is that a big part of the price of the new MBPs will end up being the screen, and when we see the Pro/Max in a mini, it won't seem so bad.
Also, don’t underestimate the cost of the screen. I had an iMac 5K in my office (I remember the sticker shock when I bought it.) I decided to move it to my teenager’s room for schoolwork and get an external monitor for my MBP and was shocked at the price of 5k monitors. Suddenly the price of the iMac made sense.
Yeah, my hope is that a big part of the price of the new MBPs will end up being the screen, and when we see the Pro/Max in a mini, it won't seem so bad.
You can get an idea of the cost of the parts from Apple's upgrade prices.
The base M1 MBP 8GB/256GB is $1299. The 16GB/512GB is $1699. The base M1 mini 8GB/256GB is $699. The 16GB/512GB is $1099. The base 14" M1 Pro MBP 16GB/512GB is $1999.
So M1 -> M1 Pro (lower Pro with 8-core CPU) is $300 but that's also with removing the touch bar and better display. Going to M1 Max costs another $1100 ($700 for chip, $400 for 16GB RAM).
I'd say the mini with M1 Pro 16GB/512GB would be $1399 ($1599 for 10-core Pro) and M1 Max 32GB/512GB $2499.
It should be around $600 less than the equivalent spec in the 14"MBP and $800 less than equivalent in 16" MBP. That's why I think people waiting for a Pro/Max headless machine would be better getting one of the laptops. For the sake of $600, it's not worth waiting forever when they might not even make one. But there is a much better chance for them to add these higher-end chips with Apple Silicon than with Intel/AMD and the power supply in the mini just now is way bigger than it needs to be for M1. I suspect they'd rather make it smaller though. If they keep the same design, I could see them adding up to a Pro model.
Also, don’t underestimate the cost of the screen. I had an iMac 5K in my office (I remember the sticker shock when I bought it.) I decided to move it to my teenager’s room for schoolwork and get an external monitor for my MBP and was shocked at the price of 5k monitors. Suddenly the price of the iMac made sense.
Yeah, my hope is that a big part of the price of the new MBPs will end up being the screen, and when we see the Pro/Max in a mini, it won't seem so bad.
You can get an idea of the cost of the parts from Apple's upgrade prices.
The base M1 MBP 8GB/256GB is $1299. The 16GB/512GB is $1699. The base M1 mini 8GB/256GB is $699. The 16GB/512GB is $1099. The base 14" M1 Pro MBP 16GB/512GB is $1999.
So M1 -> M1 Pro (lower Pro with 8-core CPU) is $300 but that's also with removing the touch bar and better display. Going to M1 Max costs another $1100 ($700 for chip, $400 for 16GB RAM).
I'd say the mini with M1 Pro 16GB/512GB would be $1399 ($1599 for 10-core Pro) and M1 Max 32GB/512GB $2499.
It should be around $600 less than the equivalent spec in the 14"MBP and $800 less than equivalent in 16" MBP. That's why I think people waiting for a Pro/Max headless machine would be better getting one of the laptops. For the sake of $600, it's not worth waiting forever when they might not even make one. But there is a much better chance for them to add these higher-end chips with Apple Silicon than with Intel/AMD and the power supply in the mini just now is way bigger than it needs to be for M1. I suspect they'd rather make it smaller though. If they keep the same design, I could see them adding up to a Pro model.
Judging by the 16" design, I'd say there's plenty of room to fit another die, so you'll get the full CPU or GPU power with some headroom, just not both. Whether we'll see the 2-die M1 on it is unknown.
As for Mac minis, they have always been a tier lower, except the 8th gen i7/i9s where the 15" screwed up. Seeing it shrinks again, it'll most likely maxed out at 10-core with 64GiB of RAM.
melgross said: These are by no means cheap chips. As Anandtech just said about these new chips;”Apple invested in silicon.” Meaning that these are large, and expensive. There is no other way to do what these do on chip. ...
Yeah, maybe it is just a matter of expectations. I'm happy to see the performance and the future looks bright. But, the prices are also a bit of a shocker. I think we were lead to believe that Intel was limited on the 'low' end by heat/performance, and then too costly going into Xeons (leading to Mac Pro pricing). I had hoped we'd see the middle filled in a bit once Apple was free with their own architecture and control over it all.
Now, it looks like we're back to the same problem. The affordable machines don't have the performance for the prosumer or independent pro, and the higher-end machines cost even more than they used to. My current setup, a Mac mini i7 w/ eGPU might be a bit slower in terms of CPU power and uses more power, but something similar in Apple's new lineup is over $3500.
I'm hoping maybe a lot of that price is in the screen and unnecessary laptop 'stuff' and await the mini 'Pro', but I'm a bit worried it will be out of my price range for anything useable.
melgross said: I’m pretty certain that Apple had what they thought were good reasons to take ports away and replace them with different ports. Not all of us may agree with them on that, but they didn’t do it willy nilly. They were likely doing what they had so successfully done in the past, many times, which was forcing a newer technology to replace an older one. This time it was too early. Maybe it will happen in a few more years.
I think maybe it was being a bit overzealous on that front, combined with an industrial design wish for the look of port-uniformity. The problem, as Marco Arment put it one day, is that when some large percentage of your users *need* a dongle to do what they need to do, it is a problem.
And, like I've said since this whole thing started, when I've got a bunch of USB-C devices I can just plug into a machine with a bunch of USB-C ports, I'll be happy with it. But, that day is still a long way off and may never come. The only people who really benefited (and that's questionable) are those who bring their laptop between two locations with 'docks'. (The problem being dock ports aren't oven equal to built in ones.)
I don't need an HDMI or SD card reader on my laptop (should I ever get one again), but a lot of Apple's laptop users use those ports all the time (ex. how many people have to plug into a projector at the office?). It is good to see them back, and having those ports doesn't hurt me at all (if I don't need them).
Looking back, where now we can start to think 🤦♂️, I believe Apple is pushing it bit too aggressive. Corporations moves slow so we'd be baffling why Apple don't just add few mm on their device, but that old design is meant for the next four years, when that's settle, it's for the next four years, and back in 2016 nobody would foreseen the mess that is Intel's 14nm. Same with the trash can where the power supply being a major bottleneck.
Chip being one, then there's the keyboard, an ambitious design that never meets the QC they want. Port wise, it's a little too aggressive but they do have significant advantages, but it's wise to retain some more popular one.
I think with this design they've learned their lesson, sometimes you can't be too optimistic about the future, especially we're seeing major performance gain these days, it needs to be solid enough to accommodate any future requirements. Glad they're reverting back, or least saving me some online arguments .
Marvin said: I'd say the mini with M1 Pro 16GB/512GB would be $1399 ($1599 for 10-core Pro) and M1 Max 32GB/512GB $2499.
It should be around $600 less than the equivalent spec in the 14"MBP and $800 less than equivalent in 16" MBP. That's why I think people waiting for a Pro/Max headless machine would be better getting one of the laptops. For the sake of $600, it's not worth waiting forever when they might not even make one. But there is a much better chance for them to add these higher-end chips with Apple Silicon than with Intel/AMD and the power supply in the mini just now is way bigger than it needs to be for M1. I suspect they'd rather make it smaller though. If they keep the same design, I could see them adding up to a Pro model.
Thanks. That makes some sense, and those prices start to look a bit more realistic, I guess (though maybe still a bit high comparing to PCs, as I'm thinking in CAD vs USD).
It will be interesting to see what really happens to the mini. If they shrink it, I can't see how it will do any better for cooling than the 14" MBP, so even if they offer the Pro/Max, mostly likely it will be the best value as a Pro (as the Max would be tuned down so not worth the extra money). That makes me think about what might be with the bigger iMac, but I suppose a similar problem there if they try to stuff it into a thin case. (As much as I like the designs Apple sometimes comes up with, I hate that they constrain the cooling aspects by going too far.) Looks like that is delayed, so I suppose I'll be looking at mid-year before I can even really start considering what to get. (I'm pretty sure the Mac Pro will be out of my league, budget-wise.)
I'd sure like it to be roughly equivalent to a gaming PC w/ a 3080, so that means a Max, and probably like you note, $2500'ish.
Comments
Steve’s response, in an almost exasperated voice, after a pause to consider it: “You can please some of the people, some of the time…”
Now, it looks like we're back to the same problem. The affordable machines don't have the performance for the prosumer or independent pro, and the higher-end machines cost even more than they used to. My current setup, a Mac mini i7 w/ eGPU might be a bit slower in terms of CPU power and uses more power, but something similar in Apple's new lineup is over $3500.
I'm hoping maybe a lot of that price is in the screen and unnecessary laptop 'stuff' and await the mini 'Pro', but I'm a bit worried it will be out of my price range for anything useable.
I think maybe it was being a bit overzealous on that front, combined with an industrial design wish for the look of port-uniformity. The problem, as Marco Arment put it one day, is that when some large percentage of your users *need* a dongle to do what they need to do, it is a problem.
And, like I've said since this whole thing started, when I've got a bunch of USB-C devices I can just plug into a machine with a bunch of USB-C ports, I'll be happy with it. But, that day is still a long way off and may never come. The only people who really benefited (and that's questionable) are those who bring their laptop between two locations with 'docks'. (The problem being dock ports aren't oven equal to built in ones.)
I don't need an HDMI or SD card reader on my laptop (should I ever get one again), but a lot of Apple's laptop users use those ports all the time (ex. how many people have to plug into a projector at the office?). It is good to see them back, and having those ports doesn't hurt me at all (if I don't need them).
The base M1 MBP 8GB/256GB is $1299. The 16GB/512GB is $1699.
The base M1 mini 8GB/256GB is $699. The 16GB/512GB is $1099.
The base 14" M1 Pro MBP 16GB/512GB is $1999.
So M1 -> M1 Pro (lower Pro with 8-core CPU) is $300 but that's also with removing the touch bar and better display.
Going to M1 Max costs another $1100 ($700 for chip, $400 for 16GB RAM).
I'd say the mini with M1 Pro 16GB/512GB would be $1399 ($1599 for 10-core Pro) and M1 Max 32GB/512GB $2499.
It should be around $600 less than the equivalent spec in the 14"MBP and $800 less than equivalent in 16" MBP. That's why I think people waiting for a Pro/Max headless machine would be better getting one of the laptops. For the sake of $600, it's not worth waiting forever when they might not even make one. But there is a much better chance for them to add these higher-end chips with Apple Silicon than with Intel/AMD and the power supply in the mini just now is way bigger than it needs to be for M1. I suspect they'd rather make it smaller though. If they keep the same design, I could see them adding up to a Pro model.
As for Mac minis, they have always been a tier lower, except the 8th gen i7/i9s where the 15" screwed up. Seeing it shrinks again, it'll most likely maxed out at 10-core with 64GiB of RAM.
Chip being one, then there's the keyboard, an ambitious design that never meets the QC they want. Port wise, it's a little too aggressive but they do have significant advantages, but it's wise to retain some more popular one.
I think with this design they've learned their lesson, sometimes you can't be too optimistic about the future, especially we're seeing major performance gain these days, it needs to be solid enough to accommodate any future requirements. Glad they're reverting back, or least saving me some online arguments
It will be interesting to see what really happens to the mini. If they shrink it, I can't see how it will do any better for cooling than the 14" MBP, so even if they offer the Pro/Max, mostly likely it will be the best value as a Pro (as the Max would be tuned down so not worth the extra money). That makes me think about what might be with the bigger iMac, but I suppose a similar problem there if they try to stuff it into a thin case. (As much as I like the designs Apple sometimes comes up with, I hate that they constrain the cooling aspects by going too far.) Looks like that is delayed, so I suppose I'll be looking at mid-year before I can even really start considering what to get. (I'm pretty sure the Mac Pro will be out of my league, budget-wise.)
I'd sure like it to be roughly equivalent to a gaming PC w/ a 3080, so that means a Max, and probably like you note, $2500'ish.