Every time I read one of these EU stories I try to think about what Apple should do to deal with this situation. It’s tempting to say Apple should just leave, but it doesn’t make sense to leave money on the table.
They won't be leaving money on the table by pulling out of the EU. First, the EU is just a fraction of what Apple classifies as "Europe" (which includes the Middle East and at least parts, if not all, of Africa), and obviously doesn't include European countries not in the EU, such as the UK and Switzerland. The fines the EU is threatening far eclipse the value of the EU as a market. Second, if EU rules force Apple to cripple, compromise or otherwise dumb down their products, that makes them less competitive in the rest of the world. There is at this point almost no upside for Apple to release anything in the EU and plenty of downside, not to mention all the resources wasted "negotiating" with EU bureaucrats who are not acting in good faith and are making up the rules as the go and changing them retroactively.
So, what exactly is the downside for Apple to simply pull out of the EU until there is a more favorable business climate there? I can't see any upside to staying at this point.
I’ve read that the EU represents about 7% of Apple’s revenues. That’s almost $30 billion a year. I see no reason to walk away from that if you don’t have to.
I think it's less than that because Apple doesn't break out revenue for the EU as such, only "Europe" which includes the Middle East and Africa. Even actual Europe, you have to drop out revenue from non members of the EU like the UK and Switzerland.
But, even if it is 7%, if they are threatening you with fines of 10%, seems like a no brainer to drop that market. Why sell for a loss?
The point is to avoid the fine by complying with the law. That is, I’m saying Apple should swallow their pride and sell the dumb products that the EC demands. It might be bad for consumers but that’s on the EC. And only sell the lobotomized product in the EU, obviously.
Let the baby have its bottle.
Unless it turns out to be impossible to please the baby, and then leave.
It’s also better from a PR perspective to let people see that it’s the EC that’s being unreasonable. How they handle this in Europe can affect laws and regulations elsewhere. Apple needs to be seen as the good guys, the EU as the bad guys, so that politicians in other countries conclude they don’t want to follow the EU example
Well, Apple has already said it will sell the EU the dumbed down products and the EU (Vestager) has said publicly that that is unacceptable, so I think we've already moved well past that point. (Apparently, Microsoft is in trouble for not selling the dumbed down product, so with the EU it's damned if you do, damned if you don't.)
Every time I read one of these EU stories I try to think about what Apple should do to deal with this situation. It’s tempting to say Apple should just leave, but it doesn’t make sense to leave money on the table.
They won't be leaving money on the table by pulling out of the EU. First, the EU is just a fraction of what Apple classifies as "Europe" (which includes the Middle East and at least parts, if not all, of Africa), and obviously doesn't include European countries not in the EU, such as the UK and Switzerland. The fines the EU is threatening far eclipse the value of the EU as a market. Second, if EU rules force Apple to cripple, compromise or otherwise dumb down their products, that makes them less competitive in the rest of the world. There is at this point almost no upside for Apple to release anything in the EU and plenty of downside, not to mention all the resources wasted "negotiating" with EU bureaucrats who are not acting in good faith and are making up the rules as the go and changing them retroactively.
So, what exactly is the downside for Apple to simply pull out of the EU until there is a more favorable business climate there? I can't see any upside to staying at this point.
I’ve read that the EU represents about 7% of Apple’s revenues. That’s almost $30 billion a year. I see no reason to walk away from that if you don’t have to.
I think it's less than that because Apple doesn't break out revenue for the EU as such, only "Europe" which includes the Middle East and Africa. Even actual Europe, you have to drop out revenue from non members of the EU like the UK and Switzerland.
But, even if it is 7%, if they are threatening you with fines of 10%, seems like a no brainer to drop that market. Why sell for a loss?
The point is to avoid the fine by complying with the law. That is, I’m saying Apple should swallow their pride and sell the dumb products that the EC demands. It might be bad for consumers but that’s on the EC. And only sell the lobotomized product in the EU, obviously.
Let the baby have its bottle.
Unless it turns out to be impossible to please the baby, and then leave.
It’s also better from a PR perspective to let people see that it’s the EC that’s being unreasonable. How they handle this in Europe can affect laws and regulations elsewhere. Apple needs to be seen as the good guys, the EU as the bad guys, so that politicians in other countries conclude they don’t want to follow the EU example
Well, Apple has already said it will sell the EU the dumbed down products and the EU (Vestager) has said publicly that that is unacceptable, so I think we've already moved well past that point. (Apparently, Microsoft is in trouble for not selling the dumbed down product, so with the EU it's damned if you do, damned if you don't.)
Vestager complaining in public strikes me as a sign of weakness. It makes me think she's afraid that EU Apple customers might not appreciate the consequences of her actions. So I don't think Apple should run away from the EU just because she's huffing and puffing. And I think there's plenty of room for Apple to lobotomize the products further. For example, eliminate the App Store in Europe and make all apps side-loaded. Or let anybody have an App Store and leave it to the EC to protect consumers. Kick EU users out of iMessage and let them only have SMS, so that the EC can snoop all they want.There are a lot of cards to play here.
The problem here appears to be less about the DMA and more about a spokesperson for it who is more than happy to go off half-cocked based on incomplete information.
A **professional** would have said simply that the EU maintains its communications with Apple and will be discussing any changes with them, at least until both entities have, in fact, had a chance to get together and discuss recent announcements and what Apple’s concerns are regarding the EU’s rules.
Vestager seems to be the main problem here. Maybe replace her with someone more diplomatic and less dictatorial.
The problem here appears to be less about the DMA and more about a spokesperson for it who is more than happy to go off half-cocked based on incomplete information.
A **professional** would have said simply that the EU maintains its communications with Apple and will be discussing any changes with them, at least until both entities have, in fact, had a chance to get together and discuss recent announcements and what Apple’s concerns are regarding the EU’s rules.
Vestager seems to be the main problem here. Maybe replace her with someone more diplomatic and less dictatorial.
Well, no, the DMA is clearly a problem as well. Laws should be written such as to minimize the negative effects of bad people in charge of administering them. (And not to maximize the positive effects of good people in charge of administering them, because you can't count on good people being in charge.) Unfortunately, the DMA fails in that regard, largely due to its vagueness, and gives too much discretion regarding what is allowed or not allowed to those enforcing it, without requiring them to define in advance the rules that will be used to enforce the law.
Thus we end up in a situation where those charged with enforcing the law see violations at every turn. So called "gatekeeper" companies have no idea what's a violation and what isn't until after they do or don't do something. Regulators are laser focused on American companies, and in fact tailor enforcement to shift revenues from American companies to EU companies. (This last supported by public statements of intent.) This is as bad as doing business in a third world country where business is done according to the whim of the current dictator.
The problem here appears to be less about the DMA and more about a spokesperson for it who is more than happy to go off half-cocked based on incomplete information.
A **professional** would have said simply that the EU maintains its communications with Apple and will be discussing any changes with them, at least until both entities have, in fact, had a chance to get together and discuss recent announcements and what Apple’s concerns are regarding the EU’s rules.
Vestager seems to be the main problem here. Maybe replace her with someone more diplomatic and less dictatorial.
Well, no, the DMA is clearly a problem as well. Laws should be written such as to minimize the negative effects of bad people in charge of administering them. (And not to maximize the positive effects of good people in charge of administering them, because you can't count on good people being in charge.) Unfortunately, the DMA fails in that regard, largely due to its vagueness, and gives too much discretion regarding what is allowed or not allowed to those enforcing it, without requiring them to define in advance the rules that will be used to enforce the law.
Thus we end up in a situation where those charged with enforcing the law see violations at every turn. So called "gatekeeper" companies have no idea what's a violation and what isn't until after they do or don't do something. Regulators are laser focused on American companies, and in fact tailor enforcement to shift revenues from American companies to EU companies. (This last supported by public statements of intent.) This is as bad as doing business in a third world country where business is done according to the whim of the current dictator.
Yeah, I think she's the perfect person to speak on behalf of the DMA. I think she has a deep intuition for the spirit of that law.
The problem here appears to be less about the DMA and more about a spokesperson for it who is more than happy to go off half-cocked based on incomplete information.
A **professional** would have said simply that the EU maintains its communications with Apple and will be discussing any changes with them, at least until both entities have, in fact, had a chance to get together and discuss recent announcements and what Apple’s concerns are regarding the EU’s rules.
Vestager seems to be the main problem here. Maybe replace her with someone more diplomatic and less dictatorial.
Every time I read one of these EU stories I try to think about what Apple should do to deal with this situation. It’s tempting to say Apple should just leave, but it doesn’t make sense to leave money on the table.
They won't be leaving money on the table by pulling out of the EU. First, the EU is just a fraction of what Apple classifies as "Europe" (which includes the Middle East and at least parts, if not all, of Africa), and obviously doesn't include European countries not in the EU, such as the UK and Switzerland. The fines the EU is threatening far eclipse the value of the EU as a market. Second, if EU rules force Apple to cripple, compromise or otherwise dumb down their products, that makes them less competitive in the rest of the world. There is at this point almost no upside for Apple to release anything in the EU and plenty of downside, not to mention all the resources wasted "negotiating" with EU bureaucrats who are not acting in good faith and are making up the rules as the go and changing them retroactively.
So, what exactly is the downside for Apple to simply pull out of the EU until there is a more favorable business climate there? I can't see any upside to staying at this point.
I’ve read that the EU represents about 7% of Apple’s revenues. That’s almost $30 billion a year. I see no reason to walk away from that if you don’t have to.
I think it's less than that because Apple doesn't break out revenue for the EU as such, only "Europe" which includes the Middle East and Africa. Even actual Europe, you have to drop out revenue from non members of the EU like the UK and Switzerland.
But, even if it is 7%, if they are threatening you with fines of 10%, seems like a no brainer to drop that market. Why sell for a loss?
The point is to avoid the fine by complying with the law. That is, I’m saying Apple should swallow their pride and sell the dumb products that the EC demands. It might be bad for consumers but that’s on the EC. And only sell the lobotomized product in the EU, obviously.
Let the baby have its bottle.
Unless it turns out to be impossible to please the baby, and then leave.
It’s also better from a PR perspective to let people see that it’s the EC that’s being unreasonable. How they handle this in Europe can affect laws and regulations elsewhere. Apple needs to be seen as the good guys, the EU as the bad guys, so that politicians in other countries conclude they don’t want to follow the EU example
Well, Apple has already said it will sell the EU the dumbed down products and the EU (Vestager) has said publicly that that is unacceptable, so I think we've already moved well past that point. (Apparently, Microsoft is in trouble for not selling the dumbed down product, so with the EU it's damned if you do, damned if you don't.)
So cry Apple a river.
I said earlier they are not singled out by the EU, being treated unfairly as compared to their tech brethren. You can be forgiven for believing that if the only news you read is from Apple fan sites or Apple News.
Google is being investigated for some of the same compliance issues as Apple is. Meta has a problem with required Messages and WhatsApp 3rd party interoperability while maintaining encryption, and how to do so in a way that pleases the EU. Amazon and Microsoft have their own DMA non-compliance issues, as referenced in the following document. https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_24_1689
So poor, poor picked on Apple? Not. They'll survive just as the others will, all of whom will figure out how best to continue profiting from EU customers.
Every time I read one of these EU stories I try to think about what Apple should do to deal with this situation. It’s tempting to say Apple should just leave, but it doesn’t make sense to leave money on the table.
They won't be leaving money on the table by pulling out of the EU. First, the EU is just a fraction of what Apple classifies as "Europe" (which includes the Middle East and at least parts, if not all, of Africa), and obviously doesn't include European countries not in the EU, such as the UK and Switzerland. The fines the EU is threatening far eclipse the value of the EU as a market. Second, if EU rules force Apple to cripple, compromise or otherwise dumb down their products, that makes them less competitive in the rest of the world. There is at this point almost no upside for Apple to release anything in the EU and plenty of downside, not to mention all the resources wasted "negotiating" with EU bureaucrats who are not acting in good faith and are making up the rules as the go and changing them retroactively.
So, what exactly is the downside for Apple to simply pull out of the EU until there is a more favorable business climate there? I can't see any upside to staying at this point.
I’ve read that the EU represents about 7% of Apple’s revenues. That’s almost $30 billion a year. I see no reason to walk away from that if you don’t have to.
I think it's less than that because Apple doesn't break out revenue for the EU as such, only "Europe" which includes the Middle East and Africa. Even actual Europe, you have to drop out revenue from non members of the EU like the UK and Switzerland.
But, even if it is 7%, if they are threatening you with fines of 10%, seems like a no brainer to drop that market. Why sell for a loss?
The point is to avoid the fine by complying with the law. That is, I’m saying Apple should swallow their pride and sell the dumb products that the EC demands. It might be bad for consumers but that’s on the EC. And only sell the lobotomized product in the EU, obviously.
Let the baby have its bottle.
Unless it turns out to be impossible to please the baby, and then leave.
It’s also better from a PR perspective to let people see that it’s the EC that’s being unreasonable. How they handle this in Europe can affect laws and regulations elsewhere. Apple needs to be seen as the good guys, the EU as the bad guys, so that politicians in other countries conclude they don’t want to follow the EU example
Well, Apple has already said it will sell the EU the dumbed down products and the EU (Vestager) has said publicly that that is unacceptable, so I think we've already moved well past that point. (Apparently, Microsoft is in trouble for not selling the dumbed down product, so with the EU it's damned if you do, damned if you don't.)
So cry Apple a river.
I said earlier they are not singled out by the EU, being treated unfairly as compared to their tech brethren. You can be forgiven for believing that if the only news you read is from Apple fan sites or Apple News.
Google is being investigated for some of the same compliance issues as Apple is. Meta has a problem with required Messages and WhatsApp 3rd party interoperability while maintaining encryption, and how to do so in a way that pleases the EU. Amazon and Microsoft have their own DMA non-compliance issues, as referenced in the following document. https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_24_1689
So poor, poor picked on Apple? Not. They'll survive just as the others will, all of whom will figure out how best to continue profiting from EU customers.
Not sure what you're reacting to. The person you quoted didn't say Apple was being singled out -- in fact, specifically referenced that Microsoft has also been snared.
The fact that this is hitting all firms is a reason I think apple should stick it out and take a stab at making the compliance product that the Eurocrats want -- everybody else is in the same boat, so might as ell try to make some money. Hire a bunch of European lawyers and former EC employees and tell them to build a compliance phone. That will allow folks back in Cupertino to focus on making great products for the rest of the world and Europeans can get the Eurocrat tech products they voted for.
Every time I read one of these EU stories I try to think about what Apple should do to deal with this situation. It’s tempting to say Apple should just leave, but it doesn’t make sense to leave money on the table.
They won't be leaving money on the table by pulling out of the EU. First, the EU is just a fraction of what Apple classifies as "Europe" (which includes the Middle East and at least parts, if not all, of Africa), and obviously doesn't include European countries not in the EU, such as the UK and Switzerland. The fines the EU is threatening far eclipse the value of the EU as a market. Second, if EU rules force Apple to cripple, compromise or otherwise dumb down their products, that makes them less competitive in the rest of the world. There is at this point almost no upside for Apple to release anything in the EU and plenty of downside, not to mention all the resources wasted "negotiating" with EU bureaucrats who are not acting in good faith and are making up the rules as the go and changing them retroactively.
So, what exactly is the downside for Apple to simply pull out of the EU until there is a more favorable business climate there? I can't see any upside to staying at this point.
I’ve read that the EU represents about 7% of Apple’s revenues. That’s almost $30 billion a year. I see no reason to walk away from that if you don’t have to.
I think it's less than that because Apple doesn't break out revenue for the EU as such, only "Europe" which includes the Middle East and Africa. Even actual Europe, you have to drop out revenue from non members of the EU like the UK and Switzerland.
But, even if it is 7%, if they are threatening you with fines of 10%, seems like a no brainer to drop that market. Why sell for a loss?
The point is to avoid the fine by complying with the law. That is, I’m saying Apple should swallow their pride and sell the dumb products that the EC demands. It might be bad for consumers but that’s on the EC. And only sell the lobotomized product in the EU, obviously.
Let the baby have its bottle.
Unless it turns out to be impossible to please the baby, and then leave.
It’s also better from a PR perspective to let people see that it’s the EC that’s being unreasonable. How they handle this in Europe can affect laws and regulations elsewhere. Apple needs to be seen as the good guys, the EU as the bad guys, so that politicians in other countries conclude they don’t want to follow the EU example
Well, Apple has already said it will sell the EU the dumbed down products and the EU (Vestager) has said publicly that that is unacceptable, so I think we've already moved well past that point. (Apparently, Microsoft is in trouble for not selling the dumbed down product, so with the EU it's damned if you do, damned if you don't.)
So cry Apple a river.
I said earlier they are not singled out by the EU, being treated unfairly as compared to their tech brethren. You can be forgiven for believing that if the only news you read is from Apple fan sites or Apple News.
Google is being investigated for some of the same compliance issues as Apple is. Meta has a problem with required Messages and WhatsApp 3rd party interoperability while maintaining encryption, and how to do so in a way that pleases the EU. Amazon and Microsoft have their own DMA non-compliance issues, as referenced in the following document. https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_24_1689
So poor, poor picked on Apple? Not. They'll survive just as the others will, all of whom will figure out how best to continue profiting from EU customers.
Not sure what you're reacting to. The person you quoted didn't say Apple was being singled out -- in fact, specifically referenced that Microsoft has also been snared.
Well, gatorguy just likes to disagree with me, so he always tries to find a way.
Any talk of Apple seeking "retribution" by withholding premium features from the EU is utter nonsense. Tim Cook is as smart of a businessman as there is and is always seeking to do best for all Apple stakeholders. He didn't just graduate from 5th grade last month. Seeking retribution at his level is a fool's game that always ends badly.
The US is a violent force destabilising peace across the world to suit its own ends. Change my mind.
Both the US and EU are just a bunch of entitled post colonial descendants who are pushing everyone else around with their plundered wealth. Change my mind.
Apple is right to withhold new features such as Apple Intelligence from the European Union since the DMA would force Apple to give up user's privacy and data.
For example, if Apple is forced to allow other AI platforms such as Facebook's platform to replace Apple Private Cloud Computing (Apple's AI platform), then user data is going to go to private companies or would be even sold to third parties. Imagine all your phone contacts, your passwords, your photos, your text-messages, your credit-card numbers being sold to third parties.
Apple does not have to introduce new features in every region. Apple already has to block certain app sales in China to comply with Chinese law, for example. Apple's Private Cloud computing cannot yet be introduced in China since the Chinese don't want responses against the Chinese Government.
Every time I read one of these EU stories I try to think about what Apple should do to deal with this situation. It’s tempting to say Apple should just leave, but it doesn’t make sense to leave money on the table.
They won't be leaving money on the table by pulling out of the EU. First, the EU is just a fraction of what Apple classifies as "Europe" (which includes the Middle East and at least parts, if not all, of Africa), and obviously doesn't include European countries not in the EU, such as the UK and Switzerland. The fines the EU is threatening far eclipse the value of the EU as a market. Second, if EU rules force Apple to cripple, compromise or otherwise dumb down their products, that makes them less competitive in the rest of the world. There is at this point almost no upside for Apple to release anything in the EU and plenty of downside, not to mention all the resources wasted "negotiating" with EU bureaucrats who are not acting in good faith and are making up the rules as the go and changing them retroactively.
So, what exactly is the downside for Apple to simply pull out of the EU until there is a more favorable business climate there? I can't see any upside to staying at this point.
I’ve read that the EU represents about 7% of Apple’s revenues. That’s almost $30 billion a year. I see no reason to walk away from that if you don’t have to.
I think it's less than that because Apple doesn't break out revenue for the EU as such, only "Europe" which includes the Middle East and Africa. Even actual Europe, you have to drop out revenue from non members of the EU like the UK and Switzerland.
But, even if it is 7%, if they are threatening you with fines of 10%, seems like a no brainer to drop that market. Why sell for a loss?
The point is to avoid the fine by complying with the law. That is, I’m saying Apple should swallow their pride and sell the dumb products that the EC demands. It might be bad for consumers but that’s on the EC. And only sell the lobotomized product in the EU, obviously.
Let the baby have its bottle.
Unless it turns out to be impossible to please the baby, and then leave.
It’s also better from a PR perspective to let people see that it’s the EC that’s being unreasonable. How they handle this in Europe can affect laws and regulations elsewhere. Apple needs to be seen as the good guys, the EU as the bad guys, so that politicians in other countries conclude they don’t want to follow the EU example
Well, Apple has already said it will sell the EU the dumbed down products and the EU (Vestager) has said publicly that that is unacceptable, so I think we've already moved well past that point. (Apparently, Microsoft is in trouble for not selling the dumbed down product, so with the EU it's damned if you do, damned if you don't.)
So cry Apple a river.
I said earlier they are not singled out by the EU, being treated unfairly as compared to their tech brethren. You can be forgiven for believing that if the only news you read is from Apple fan sites or Apple News.
Google is being investigated for some of the same compliance issues as Apple is. Meta has a problem with required Messages and WhatsApp 3rd party interoperability while maintaining encryption, and how to do so in a way that pleases the EU. Amazon and Microsoft have their own DMA non-compliance issues, as referenced in the following document. https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_24_1689
So poor, poor picked on Apple? Not. They'll survive just as the others will, all of whom will figure out how best to continue profiting from EU customers.
Not sure what you're reacting to. The person you quoted didn't say Apple was being singled out -- in fact, specifically referenced that Microsoft has also been snared.
Well, gatorguy just likes to disagree with me, so he always tries to find a way.
My sincere apologies. It wasn't your post I meant to respond to.
The US is a violent force destabilising peace across the world to suit its own ends. Change my mind.
Both the US and EU are just a bunch of entitled post colonial descendants who are pushing everyone else around with their plundered wealth. Change my mind.
Oddly enough, it was the U.S. and its allies at the end of WWII that created the current rules of order, including the UN, and set the global economy in motion. The U.S. also provided protection to Europe, that would become the EU during the Cold War, and assisted Europe and Japan in rebuilding, while the U.S. Navy provided the resources to enable freedom of navigation, a necessity for free trade. At the same time, the U.S. "encouraged" those allies to return territory that had been obtained in previous imperialist adventures, to the rightful citizens, as the U.S. did for the Philippines in 1946.
There have been a number of regional wars that the U.S. has been involved in during the Cold War, and a number of wars after the collapse of the Soviet Union.
The U.S. isn't perfect, far from it, but I'm unsurprised that the various authoritarian countries most notably Russia, People's Republic of China, North Korea, and Iran, are less than enamored with rules of order that disallow illegal wars on neighbors, human rights violations, while at the same time, encouraging individual freedoms, and especially, a free press. I'm never shocked when I see posters in the EU complain about U.S. "hegemony", as if the EU doesn't absolutely benefit from that even today.
It is also the case the the U.S. came out of WWII with something on the order of 53% of global manufacturing, simply for the fact that the U.S. was mostly isolated from the conflict.
I'm guessing you are a citizen of one of those four authoritarian countries...
To anyone sane it’s clear that the “gatekeeper” term is an abhorrent socialist fiction, akin to something that belongs in the annals of communism. Preventing companies making products as they see fit and letting the people/market sort the wheat from the chaff is itself the epitome of anti-choice/anti-commercialism.
Microsoft could try to build a new smarterphone than iPhone or Pixel if they wanted to (they seem to be learning a little from copying Mac hardware so maybe this could rub-off in the mobile space too).
Apple could try to make a new social media network if they wanted to (it’s probably something they still think about given iMessage and the number of connected users they have).
Meta could try to build a new online shopping experience to replace Amazon if they wanted to (it’s probably in their long term plans).
Of course, a new upstart could invent a new paradigm relacing any or all of the above.
If it happened it might be a chinese startup, you just know how the EU would react to this, especially if the EU companies couldn’t compete on price - one only has to look at the EU threatened actions against chinese electric vehicle companies.
Vestager clearly studied the fascist Mussolini but veils herself politically trying to avoid people seeing her intended one-nation EU. No wonder the right is on the rise in the Europe.
Given that the EU thinks it’s okay to write vague laws and create traps for large companies to fall into so they can fine them, it’s no wonder a sensible company like Apple has to think long and hard before launching new products or services there. I don’t think we can avoid a two-tier tech world developing, with EU becoming second-class citizens by their leaders design. It’s almost as if history repeats itself.
Every time I read one of these EU stories I try to think about what Apple should do to deal with this situation. It’s tempting to say Apple should just leave, but it doesn’t make sense to leave money on the table.
They won't be leaving money on the table by pulling out of the EU. First, the EU is just a fraction of what Apple classifies as "Europe" (which includes the Middle East and at least parts, if not all, of Africa), and obviously doesn't include European countries not in the EU, such as the UK and Switzerland. The fines the EU is threatening far eclipse the value of the EU as a market. Second, if EU rules force Apple to cripple, compromise or otherwise dumb down their products, that makes them less competitive in the rest of the world. There is at this point almost no upside for Apple to release anything in the EU and plenty of downside, not to mention all the resources wasted "negotiating" with EU bureaucrats who are not acting in good faith and are making up the rules as the go and changing them retroactively.
So, what exactly is the downside for Apple to simply pull out of the EU until there is a more favorable business climate there? I can't see any upside to staying at this point.
I’ve read that the EU represents about 7% of Apple’s revenues. That’s almost $30 billion a year. I see no reason to walk away from that if you don’t have to.
I think it's less than that because Apple doesn't break out revenue for the EU as such, only "Europe" which includes the Middle East and Africa. Even actual Europe, you have to drop out revenue from non members of the EU like the UK and Switzerland.
But, even if it is 7%, if they are threatening you with fines of 10%, seems like a no brainer to drop that market. Why sell for a loss?
The point is to avoid the fine by complying with the law. That is, I’m saying Apple should swallow their pride and sell the dumb products that the EC demands. It might be bad for consumers but that’s on the EC. And only sell the lobotomized product in the EU, obviously.
Let the baby have its bottle.
Unless it turns out to be impossible to please the baby, and then leave.
It’s also better from a PR perspective to let people see that it’s the EC that’s being unreasonable. How they handle this in Europe can affect laws and regulations elsewhere. Apple needs to be seen as the good guys, the EU as the bad guys, so that politicians in other countries conclude they don’t want to follow the EU example
Well, Apple has already said it will sell the EU the dumbed down products and the EU (Vestager) has said publicly that that is unacceptable, so I think we've already moved well past that point. (Apparently, Microsoft is in trouble for not selling the dumbed down product, so with the EU it's damned if you do, damned if you don't.)
So cry Apple a river.
I said earlier they are not singled out by the EU, being treated unfairly as compared to their tech brethren. You can be forgiven for believing that if the only news you read is from Apple fan sites or Apple News.
Google is being investigated for some of the same compliance issues as Apple is. Meta has a problem with required Messages and WhatsApp 3rd party interoperability while maintaining encryption, and how to do so in a way that pleases the EU. Amazon and Microsoft have their own DMA non-compliance issues, as referenced in the following document. https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_24_1689
So poor, poor picked on Apple? Not. They'll survive just as the others will, all of whom will figure out how best to continue profiting from EU customers.
Not sure what you're reacting to. The person you quoted didn't say Apple was being singled out -- in fact, specifically referenced that Microsoft has also been snared.
Well, gatorguy just likes to disagree with me, so he always tries to find a way.
My sincere apologies. It wasn't your post I meant to respond to.
Ok, well, we can't start being nice to each other now, people will talk.
What's anti-competitive about NOT offering a brand new feature in a particular region? That makes no sense at all.
Apple is not retaliating. They are proceeding with caution. Two very different things. The regulations are currently full of holes that could result in unfounded fines. Better to play it safe. Good on Apple.
What's anti-competitive about NOT offering a brand new feature in a particular region? That makes no sense at all.
Apple is not retaliating. They are proceeding with caution. Two very different things. The regulations are currently full of holes that could result in unfounded fines. Better to play it safe. Good on Apple.
It's anti-anticompetitive, so the EU wants to charge them double for not competing enough.
"Specifically, we are concerned that the interoperability requirements of the DMA could force us to compromise the integrity of our products in ways that risk user privacy and data security," said Apple. "We are committed to collaborating with the European Commission in an attempt to find a solution that would enable us to deliver these features to our EU customers without compromising their safety."
And then this:
"From previous statements including ones to AppleInsider, it's known that Apple has been continually working with the EU on its responses to the DMA, so it's reasonable to assume that will continue.
Leads to the question: Why even bother putting the subject into the public domain if communication and clarification are ongoing?
Far better to say as little as possible until things are clarified. All it takes is clarification and all for a roll out that isn't even planned for this year!
Basically FUD on Apple's part and Vestager has a valid point in her response to a question that wouldn't have been asked if it weren't for Apple.
Basically FUD on the part of EU-loving commenters. Apple has a right to provide whatever capabilities it wants to in whatever country/region it wants to. You're buying a product with certain features. There's nothing that says Apple has to provide the EU with everything it has the capability of including. The EU can demand Apple provide everything but that's not the way companies work. This is a brand new Apple capability and Apple has the right to provide it when they feel it's ready, not when a corrupt EU demands it. At this point, I feel Apple is well within its rights to start charging for features in countries it wants to. As far as I'm concerned, Apple should start charging for macOS, iOS, tvOS, iPadOS along with every Apple app and feature it wants to. I'd like to see the EU try and force Apple to provide everything for free. It isn't going to happen.
No one is disputing Apple's right to bring or not bring certain features to the EU. That is up to them and is irrelevant here.
The point is 'making a meal out of something' and putting it down to the DMA even when Apple itself claims it's in contact with the EU on the subject and also claims not to know what is possible or not.
It's all completely unnecessary on Apple's part. Why not simply ask the EU and wait for a reply?
Maybe Apple feels a bit of obligation to both inform its EU customer base and to disclose to its investors information that might be material to its business.
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Thus we end up in a situation where those charged with enforcing the law see violations at every turn. So called "gatekeeper" companies have no idea what's a violation and what isn't until after they do or don't do something. Regulators are laser focused on American companies, and in fact tailor enforcement to shift revenues from American companies to EU companies. (This last supported by public statements of intent.) This is as bad as doing business in a third world country where business is done according to the whim of the current dictator.
I said earlier they are not singled out by the EU, being treated unfairly as compared to their tech brethren. You can be forgiven for believing that if the only news you read is from Apple fan sites or Apple News.
Google is being investigated for some of the same compliance issues as Apple is. Meta has a problem with required Messages and WhatsApp 3rd party interoperability while maintaining encryption, and how to do so in a way that pleases the EU. Amazon and Microsoft have their own DMA non-compliance issues, as referenced in the following document. https://ec.europa.eu/commission/presscorner/detail/en/ip_24_1689
So poor, poor picked on Apple? Not. They'll survive just as the others will, all of whom will figure out how best to continue profiting from EU customers.
The fact that this is hitting all firms is a reason I think apple should stick it out and take a stab at making the compliance product that the Eurocrats want -- everybody else is in the same boat, so might as ell try to make some money. Hire a bunch of European lawyers and former EC employees and tell them to build a compliance phone. That will allow folks back in Cupertino to focus on making great products for the rest of the world and Europeans can get the Eurocrat tech products they voted for.
since the DMA would force Apple to give up user's privacy and data.
For example, if Apple is forced to allow other AI platforms such as Facebook's platform to replace Apple Private Cloud Computing (Apple's AI platform),
then user data is going to go to private companies or would be even sold to third parties.
Imagine all your phone contacts, your passwords, your photos, your text-messages, your credit-card numbers being sold to third parties.
Apple does not have to introduce new features in every region.
Apple already has to block certain app sales in China to comply with Chinese law, for example.
Apple's Private Cloud computing cannot yet be introduced in China since the Chinese don't want
responses against the Chinese Government.
There have been a number of regional wars that the U.S. has been involved in during the Cold War, and a number of wars after the collapse of the Soviet Union.
The U.S. isn't perfect, far from it, but I'm unsurprised that the various authoritarian countries most notably Russia, People's Republic of China, North Korea, and Iran, are less than enamored with rules of order that disallow illegal wars on neighbors, human rights violations, while at the same time, encouraging individual freedoms, and especially, a free press. I'm never shocked when I see posters in the EU complain about U.S. "hegemony", as if the EU doesn't absolutely benefit from that even today.
It is also the case the the U.S. came out of WWII with something on the order of 53% of global manufacturing, simply for the fact that the U.S. was mostly isolated from the conflict.
I'm guessing you are a citizen of one of those four authoritarian countries...
Microsoft could try to build a new smarterphone than iPhone or Pixel if they wanted to (they seem to be learning a little from copying Mac hardware so maybe this could rub-off in the mobile space too).
Apple could try to make a new social media network if they wanted to (it’s probably something they still think about given iMessage and the number of connected users they have).
Meta could try to build a new online shopping experience to replace Amazon if they wanted to (it’s probably in their long term plans).
Of course, a new upstart could invent a new paradigm relacing any or all of the above.
If it happened it might be a chinese startup, you just know how the EU would react to this, especially if the EU companies couldn’t compete on price - one only has to look at the EU threatened actions against chinese electric vehicle companies.
Vestager clearly studied the fascist Mussolini but veils herself politically trying to avoid people seeing her intended one-nation EU. No wonder the right is on the rise in the Europe.
Given that the EU thinks it’s okay to write vague laws and create traps for large companies to fall into so they can fine them, it’s no wonder a sensible company like Apple has to think long and hard before launching new products or services there. I don’t think we can avoid a two-tier tech world developing, with EU becoming second-class citizens by their leaders design. It’s almost as if history repeats itself.
that’s it. That’s all I’ve got!
Apple is not retaliating. They are proceeding with caution. Two very different things. The regulations are currently full of holes that could result in unfounded fines. Better to play it safe. Good on Apple.