I'm not laughing at the idea that God might be a woman, but that you use "she" to refer to God....
My goodness you are a moron. Really.
I responded to someone who used the word he in reference to god. I balanced that out by using the word she. Neither is correct. Neither is incorrect. Why on earth wouldn't you ridicule someone for using the word he?
Because you really are a moron.
I don't think you're smart enough to understand that though.
I simply disagree but I respect your position. I just believe it matters not how one dresses at church. Respect is great person to person and I am a big advocate of respect. I am just not legalistic about it. I don't ever once recall Jesus getting onto somebody about their dress.
I do not have a problem with either style. I just happen to believe we all have a choice as to where we choose to worship if at all.
It is really not complicated.
Fellowship
Fellowship,
I really respect your faith and your ability to reply in a Christian manner especially in light of all the slights that are aimed your way, so please don't think I am picking on you. But I think this is a significant point (which is why I referenced St. Paul's letter to the Corinthians in support of my argument.)
Jesus didn't attack style of dress because the Jews at the time didn't have a problem "dressing down." But a person's actions, in this case how one dresses, reflecting a person's heart or attitude is a common theme particularly in the Gospels. See Luke 21:1-4; Mark 7:1-23, esp. versuses 15-23.
Based on just this set of versuses (because I don't have time to look for more), I see ample support for my argument. Again, it is not the jeans or banana republic shorts that are at issue, but the worshippers attitude. I can think of many situations where jeans or shorts would indeed be appropriate (a worship service on the North Slope in Alaska for one or in the jungles of South America or Africa for another). Also, it is not the dollar value of the person's clothes but the desire to show reverence and respect to God, both of which He deserves in abundance. So if a "poor" man had nothing to wear but jeans, he is indeed showing reverence and respect, much like the Widow in Luke with her mites. But a rich man with expensive suits hanging in his closet but chooses to wear jeans, he is showing disregard for God.
So we don't stand in the door of the church, checking each person who comes in and sending them home for not being dressed appropriately. This is indeed a matter left between the worshiper and God. But I think the conscience of the assembly needs to be pricked to consider themselves and the attitude with which each individual is approaching worship. Because we will be called to account.
But then preachers who prick the conscience of their congregation is a whole other issue.
It is an old social custom to dress up for any sort of festivity that involves long standing tradition. This excludes of course the summer US holidays of memorial day, 4th of july, and labor day. There the idiots rein supreme and you are more likely to find future skin cancer victims bbq'ing for many hours in the blazing sun without once thinking of putting sun block on.
I really respect your faith and your ability to reply in a Christian manner especially in light of all the slights that are aimed your way, so please don't think I am picking on you. But I think this is a significant point (which is why I referenced St. Paul's letter to the Corinthians in support of my argument.)
Jesus didn't attack style of dress because the Jews at the time didn't have a problem "dressing down." But a person's actions, in this case how one dresses, reflecting a person's heart or attitude is a common theme particularly in the Gospels. See Luke 21:1-4; Mark 7:1-23, esp. versuses 15-23.
Based on just this set of versuses (because I don't have time to look for more), I see ample support for my argument. Again, it is not the jeans or banana republic shorts that are at issue, but the worshippers attitude. I can think of many situations where jeans or shorts would indeed be appropriate (a worship service on the North Slope in Alaska for one or in the jungles of South America or Africa for another). Also, it is not the dollar value of the person's clothes but the desire to show reverence and respect to God, both of which He deserves in abundance. So if a "poor" man had nothing to wear but jeans, he is indeed showing reverence and respect, much like the Widow in Luke with her mites. But a rich man with expensive suits hanging in his closet but chooses to wear jeans, he is showing disregard for God.
So we don't stand in the door of the church, checking each person who comes in and sending them home for not being dressed appropriately. This is indeed a matter left between the worshiper and God. But I think the conscience of the assembly needs to be pricked to consider themselves and the attitude with which each individual is approaching worship. Because we will be called to account.
But then preachers who prick the conscience of their congregation is a whole other issue.
Fangorn, God Bless, I thank you for your civil and respectful discussion but I still am left not understanding your point in regard to dress in Church. I read your listed reading in the bible above and found neither to address this issue.
Luke 21: 1-4 is about tithe and offering. Poor and Richer and how the poor person gave more than the rich did of themselves. It's not a clothing issue it is an obedience to God's will issue.
Mark 7: 1-23 This actually supports my view that ritual and tradition are man made and not the message of God. Mark 7: 7-9 Jesus was rather upset at this.
The above do not have anything to do with clothing.
Keep in mind I would not walk into a traditional Church in shorts and a t-shirt. I would dress the part. I would not be doing so to impress God or respect God as God knows it is not what I wear that indicates my tremendous respect and love for Him. It is His Love, His Mercy, His Provision, His Forgiveness, His Understanding, His Wisdom, and all else that I love and respect about God. It is not "my" clothing that has anything to do with this respect and love I have for God.
haha, i didn't know i'd be sturring u all up so much with this thread, so a joke to ease the situation
God was talking to Adam and told him that he was going to make him a companion, somone who was completely beautiful, someone who would listen to him, be a perfect person to be with, and do his every will. God told Adam all he would need was Adams two legs. Adam replied..."what can i get for a rib?"
all-in-all you have good argument (both sides) but i see that since dressing up is a modern way (i guess dressing up isn't modern just how u dress is different) to show respect that why not do it when going to spend your time at a place specifically created for the worship and study of the person that deserves it most?
Traditionally we wear all white to "worship." and many times go topless so there really is no pressure to dress up. Kinda avoids the whole "appropriate dress" argument.
all-in-all you have good argument (both sides) but i see that since dressing up is a modern way (i guess dressing up isn't modern just how u dress is different) to show respect that why not do it when going to spend your time at a place specifically created for the worship and study of the person that deserves it most?
I will reply with my two cents and it is not always the case but it very well could hold a lot of truth.
Not always but many times people that dress up to a high level at Church are trying to be seen. They want to be noticed. They look at others and think to themselves "hmmm Betty sure looks like a slob today,,, she must have been running late and slept in a little too late" Then you see some older ladies that see how many rings they can manage to wear at one time. It is a display of how they fit into the group. "Look at me I am well to do" To this note I can understand why groverat said of mormans wearing a uniform as to cut through this noise.
However I disagree personally and nothing more with both situations. The clorox cover up of the mormons is not something I sit well with and the "keeping up appearances" how do you look? Ohh you look great today Martha. impress the others around you and focus on how much better you dressed up than others. It is this never ending goal of trying to out-dress the others. Status, look at me.
I think balance is the order of the day where by people go to hear the message and what is worn by the members needs no consideration either to be managed by a system of clorox cover-up or by compare and contrast "ohh you look great Martha" type distraction.
To me the solution is a Church that is moderate and has a degree of some that dress nicely and some that dress casually in both cases not a factor as to why they came to worship and receive dynamic biblical teaching.
Just my thoughts and as always we all can choose how and where and why we worship.
Fangorn, God Bless, I thank you for your civil and respectful discussion but I still am left not understanding your point in regard to dress in Church. I read your listed reading in the bible above and found neither to address this issue.
Luke 21: 1-4 is about tithe and offering. Poor and Richer and how the poor person gave more than the rich did of themselves. It's not a clothing issue it is an obedience to God's will issue.
Mark 7: 1-23 This actually supports my view that ritual and tradition are man made and not the message of God. Mark 7: 7-9 Jesus was rather upset at this.
The above do not have anything to do with clothing.
Keep in mind I would not walk into a traditional Church in shorts and a t-shirt. I would dress the part. I would not be doing so to impress God or respect God as God knows it is not what I wear that indicates my tremendous respect and love for Him. It is His Love, His Mercy, His Provision, His Forgiveness, His Understanding, His Wisdom, and all else that I love and respect about God. It is not "my" clothing that has anything to do with this respect and love I have for God.
Have a great day Fangorn it is beautiful out!
God Bless,
Fellowship
Ah, but you SHOW your respect by how you dress. And what you wear DOES express your heart. I'm trying to keep this succint. There cannot be a disconnect between what one thinks/believes/feels and what one does. One without the other doesn't work. So in I Cor., a married woman should dress like a married woman. In Luke, from a loving heart (the widow) came the true offering, regardless of the actual amount. It wasn't that God knew the widow's faith but that she ACTED on her faith. And how one dresses is an application of that same principal--James 2:20; 2: 28 and James 2:26. We are saved by Grace but that Grace should manifest itself in every aspect of our life and being.
This is a real issue for me because I came to it the hard, long way. The "Christian Lifestyle" comes out of a seeking after the Will of God. Thus we say with the Psalmist:
The law of the LORD [is] perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD [is] sure, making wise the simple.
__
_\tPsa 19:8__\tThe statutes of the LORD [are] right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD [is] pure, enlightening the eyes.
__
_\tPsa 19:9__\tThe fear of the LORD [is] clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD [are] true [and] righteous altogether.
__
_\tPsa 19:10__\tMore to be desired [are they] than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
I will reply with my two cents and it is not always the case but it very well could hold a lot of truth.
To me the solution is a Church that is moderate and has a degree of some that dress nicely and some that dress casually in both cases not a factor as to why they came to worship and receive dynamic biblical teaching.
Just my thoughts and as always we all can choose how and where and why we worship.
Fellowship
Just read this after I made the other post.
Almost totally agree, which is why I said it was an issue of conscience.
Ah, but you SHOW your respect by how you dress. And what you wear DOES express your heart. I'm trying to keep this succint. There cannot be a disconnect between what one thinks/believes/feels and what one does. One without the other doesn't work. So in I Cor., a married woman should dress like a married woman. In Luke, from a loving heart (the widow) came the true offering, regardless of the actual amount. It wasn't that God knew the widow's faith but that she ACTED on her faith. And how one dresses is an application of that same principal--James 2:20; 2: 28 and James 2:26. We are saved by Grace but that Grace should manifest itself in every aspect of our life and being.
This is a real issue for me because I came to it the hard, long way. The "Christian Lifestyle" comes out of a seeking after the Will of God. Thus we say with the Psalmist:
The law of the LORD [is] perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD [is] sure, making wise the simple.
__
_\tPsa 19:8__\tThe statutes of the LORD [are] right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD [is] pure, enlightening the eyes.
__
_\tPsa 19:9__\tThe fear of the LORD [is] clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD [are] true [and] righteous altogether.
__
_\tPsa 19:10__\tMore to be desired [are they] than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
Fangorn I completely respect your views on this please know that as clear as it can be known. I simply view that what we wear does not indicate our heart. What we wear is actually influenced by many factors be it cultural or tradition. It is material and directed by what is expected by culture. You will notice a Hindu woman dresses much different than a western woman on average. This is a culture difference and neither one is right and the other wrong. It is simply a cultural tradition. Tradition does not have any connection to the heart of a worshiper. Please don't confuse man made traditions with God's message.
I respect your view and I love and respect God. What I have to wonder about are those who question my thoughts and feelings based on what I wear. That is a dangerous business.
One thing Jesus always taught is to open up to people not to cast people into groups.
Fangorn I completely respect your views on this please know that as clear as it can be known. I simply view that what we wear does not indicate our heart. What we wear is actually influenced by many factors be it cultural or tradition. It is material and directed by what is expected by culture. You will notice a Hindu woman dresses much different than a western woman on average. This is a culture difference and neither one is right and the other wrong. It is simply a cultural tradition. Tradition does not have any connection to the heart of a worshiper. Please don't confuse man made traditions with God's message.
. . .
We are all people. even the prostitute
Fellowship
EXACTLY! One's culture defines what is repectful--thus the green hair example. I am not advocating that everyone must dress as 17th century Puritan to be a respectful worshiper. But typically speaking, jeans and a t-shirt is NOT what somone in our culture wears to meet with someone important--such as the president. The culture is the context and what you choose to put on is the message. And what you choose reveals, for the most part, who you are because it defines how you WANT people to think of you. All I am saying is that people should consider what they are wearing before they go into church--why am I wearing this and what am I telling people (and God) by wearing it?
.....Tradition does not have any connection to the heart of a worshiper......
I don't want to appear nasty, either Fellows. But I'd like to cross-examine you on something.
Christianity is a religion that claims that it's converts (by the illumination of the Holy Spirit) have the "Law" written on their hearts. Loving God is equated with obeying God. "If you love me keep my commandments." etc., etc.
(I understand the Christian concept of Grace as well , but, even with the Grace aspects of the Christian faith in tow, you can't negate or marginalize those earlier statements.)
How can a religion that is supposed to be operating in its converts at a heart/mind/being level not produce a tangible culture? Most churches that I have run into have a great deal of effort tied up into the "loving Jesus"/straight Gospel message from the pulpit. Sunday after Sunday there is much effort put into reiterating the Gospel message, with almost nothing that relates to day-to-day life. Many, many churches tend to be almost esoteric in the many practical aspects of living.
How do you account for this? Why isn't the modern day Church producing a tangible culture?
I don't want to appear nasty, either Fellows. But I'd like to cross-examine you on something.
Christianity is a religion that claims that it's converts (by the illumination of the Holy Spirit) have the "Law" written on their hearts. Loving God is equated with obeying God. "If you love me keep my commandments." etc., etc.
(I understand the Christian concept of Grace as well , but, even with the Grace aspects of the Christian faith in tow, you can't negate or marginalize those earlier statements.)
How can a religion that is supposed to be operating in its converts at a heart/mind/being level not produce a tangible culture? Most churches that I have run into have a great deal of effort tied up into the "loving Jesus"/straight Gospel message from the pulpit. Sunday after Sunday there is much effort put into reiterating the Gospel message, with almost nothing that relates to day-to-day life. Many, many churches tend to be almost esoteric in the many practical aspects of living.
How do you account for this? Why isn't the modern day Church producing a tangible culture?
Ahhhh You are exactly right!!!!
I attend Fellowship Church because it does relate messages that relate to day-to-day life INDEED!!!
I too know what you are saying and some Churches out there have a lot of work that needs doing.
All I am saying is that people should consider what they are wearing before they go into church--why am I wearing this and what am I telling people (and God) by wearing it?
Dressing up for church could be as well you not being proud of yourself as your god's product, and dressing up to get the attention to how you want to be seen instead of what you are .. if god created you and loved you, he would like you even if you were naked. it's for the show, for the other people that attend your church that you have to show off.
so much discussion about how body should be in the presence of the lord. ena I see your angle but I feel it is sadly mistaken. maybe its because I am from texas, and I grew up in a church of christ (somewhat strict) but the president envokes this nation under god more, and all of his flock tend to view him as the american pope.
Religion overall is actually increasing expotentially... supposedly with the figures I get everyday at work somethen as in 7 out of 10 believe in god and over half the country goes to church. now there is a lot of room to sway in these figures... Iots of people say they go to church and don't but you get what I mean.
Also overall the muslim religion is decreasing its share... with feminism and human rights involved, they have eroded their belief, and they are at a stranger time than christians. The only religion going anywhere it seems are these independant churchs.
as for everyone else remember Fellowship lives and works in one of the most religious city's on the face of planet, am I not mistaken if that particular church has the biggest congregation in world? I used to live there, grapevine in particular was very religioius.
Everyone needs to chill out tho seriously tho a belief is a belief and whats beautiful about everything in humanity is a persons' beliefs and how they mold it and themselves for it to fit them. Its whats beautiful about humanity, all believe in the same thing, everyone wants to be happy, but we go about it in such different ways.
then again.. heh Its so strange to hear about these anti-religious establishments tell you how they hate it how they feel like //insert religious standpoint// are shoving the system down their throat, when all I feel is like they are shoving their beliefs down mine.
Whats even sadder is that all of us christians, muslims, jews we all believe in the same god, have the same ancestors, and yet we fight over how to love and appreciate him. If someone would get a clue, and say as long as you observe him in your ways, the world would be a better place.
The only religion going anywhere it seems are these independant churchs.
as for everyone else remember Fellowship lives and works in one of the most religious city's on the face of planet, am I not mistaken if that particular church has the biggest congregation in world? I used to live there, grapevine in particular was very religioius.
I would not say Grapevine is one of the most religious places on earth. It is one of the most wealthy. Grapevine, Southlake, Colleyville have a median income of around $250,000 per year.
Fellowship does not have the biggest congregation in the world. Ed Young my pastor has a father in Houston with a larger congregation for starters.
What our pastor does well is teach a vast busy DFW metroplex how to find balance in life in accordance with God's will for our lives. It is done in a very progressive and media rich style. Nothing is sub-par with this Church.
Quote:
Yes, our church is big. But each person who comes through our doors, regardless of where they are in life, is important to us?because each one, including you, is important to God.
Religion overall is actually increasing expotentially... supposedly with the figures I get everyday at work somethen as in 7 out of 10 believe in god and over half the country goes to church. now there is a lot of room to sway in these figures... Iots of people say they go to church and don't but you get what I mean.
Also overall the muslim religion is decreasing its share... with feminism and human rights involved, they have eroded their belief, and they are at a stranger time than christians. The only religion going anywhere it seems are these independant churchs.
Whats even sadder is that all of us christians, muslims, jews we all believe in the same god, have the same ancestors, and yet we fight over how to love and appreciate him. If someone would get a clue, and say as long as you observe him in your ways, the world would be a better place.
I don't see the (christian) religion(s) overall having increased. at least in europe it wasn't. supposedly still e.g. 95-98 % of southern europeans are catholic / orthodoxes, but that is statistics, not anything more in practise. i am statistically catholic, and in practise might go more often to a temple of something else than a church, and believe in other (mentality, values, ideas etc).
feminism and human rights are not coming to the islamic countries before women are allowed to study, learn to read, work, drive a car, live and exist without men (fathers, husbands etc). religion (islamic) has not decreased.
i agree with the same base point thing. jews, christians, muslems have all the same god. and not enough people seem to remember that. there are more religions than those 3 though.
Comments
Originally posted by groverat
I'm not laughing at the idea that God might be a woman, but that you use "she" to refer to God....
My goodness you are a moron. Really.
I responded to someone who used the word he in reference to god. I balanced that out by using the word she. Neither is correct. Neither is incorrect. Why on earth wouldn't you ridicule someone for using the word he?
Because you really are a moron.
I don't think you're smart enough to understand that though.
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
I simply disagree but I respect your position. I just believe it matters not how one dresses at church. Respect is great person to person and I am a big advocate of respect. I am just not legalistic about it. I don't ever once recall Jesus getting onto somebody about their dress.
I do not have a problem with either style. I just happen to believe we all have a choice as to where we choose to worship if at all.
It is really not complicated.
Fellowship
Fellowship,
I really respect your faith and your ability to reply in a Christian manner especially in light of all the slights that are aimed your way, so please don't think I am picking on you. But I think this is a significant point (which is why I referenced St. Paul's letter to the Corinthians in support of my argument.)
Jesus didn't attack style of dress because the Jews at the time didn't have a problem "dressing down." But a person's actions, in this case how one dresses, reflecting a person's heart or attitude is a common theme particularly in the Gospels. See Luke 21:1-4; Mark 7:1-23, esp. versuses 15-23.
Based on just this set of versuses (because I don't have time to look for more), I see ample support for my argument. Again, it is not the jeans or banana republic shorts that are at issue, but the worshippers attitude. I can think of many situations where jeans or shorts would indeed be appropriate (a worship service on the North Slope in Alaska for one or in the jungles of South America or Africa for another). Also, it is not the dollar value of the person's clothes but the desire to show reverence and respect to God, both of which He deserves in abundance. So if a "poor" man had nothing to wear but jeans, he is indeed showing reverence and respect, much like the Widow in Luke with her mites. But a rich man with expensive suits hanging in his closet but chooses to wear jeans, he is showing disregard for God.
So we don't stand in the door of the church, checking each person who comes in and sending them home for not being dressed appropriately. This is indeed a matter left between the worshiper and God. But I think the conscience of the assembly needs to be pricked to consider themselves and the attitude with which each individual is approaching worship. Because we will be called to account.
But then preachers who prick the conscience of their congregation is a whole other issue.
Originally posted by Fangorn
Fellowship,
I really respect your faith and your ability to reply in a Christian manner especially in light of all the slights that are aimed your way, so please don't think I am picking on you. But I think this is a significant point (which is why I referenced St. Paul's letter to the Corinthians in support of my argument.)
Jesus didn't attack style of dress because the Jews at the time didn't have a problem "dressing down." But a person's actions, in this case how one dresses, reflecting a person's heart or attitude is a common theme particularly in the Gospels. See Luke 21:1-4; Mark 7:1-23, esp. versuses 15-23.
Based on just this set of versuses (because I don't have time to look for more), I see ample support for my argument. Again, it is not the jeans or banana republic shorts that are at issue, but the worshippers attitude. I can think of many situations where jeans or shorts would indeed be appropriate (a worship service on the North Slope in Alaska for one or in the jungles of South America or Africa for another). Also, it is not the dollar value of the person's clothes but the desire to show reverence and respect to God, both of which He deserves in abundance. So if a "poor" man had nothing to wear but jeans, he is indeed showing reverence and respect, much like the Widow in Luke with her mites. But a rich man with expensive suits hanging in his closet but chooses to wear jeans, he is showing disregard for God.
So we don't stand in the door of the church, checking each person who comes in and sending them home for not being dressed appropriately. This is indeed a matter left between the worshiper and God. But I think the conscience of the assembly needs to be pricked to consider themselves and the attitude with which each individual is approaching worship. Because we will be called to account.
But then preachers who prick the conscience of their congregation is a whole other issue.
Fangorn, God Bless, I thank you for your civil and respectful discussion but I still am left not understanding your point in regard to dress in Church. I read your listed reading in the bible above and found neither to address this issue.
Luke 21: 1-4 is about tithe and offering. Poor and Richer and how the poor person gave more than the rich did of themselves. It's not a clothing issue it is an obedience to God's will issue.
Mark 7: 1-23 This actually supports my view that ritual and tradition are man made and not the message of God. Mark 7: 7-9 Jesus was rather upset at this.
The above do not have anything to do with clothing.
Keep in mind I would not walk into a traditional Church in shorts and a t-shirt. I would dress the part. I would not be doing so to impress God or respect God as God knows it is not what I wear that indicates my tremendous respect and love for Him. It is His Love, His Mercy, His Provision, His Forgiveness, His Understanding, His Wisdom, and all else that I love and respect about God. It is not "my" clothing that has anything to do with this respect and love I have for God.
Have a great day Fangorn it is beautiful out!
God Bless,
Fellowship
God was talking to Adam and told him that he was going to make him a companion, somone who was completely beautiful, someone who would listen to him, be a perfect person to be with, and do his every will. God told Adam all he would need was Adams two legs. Adam replied..."what can i get for a rib?"
all-in-all you have good argument (both sides) but i see that since dressing up is a modern way (i guess dressing up isn't modern just how u dress is different) to show respect that why not do it when going to spend your time at a place specifically created for the worship and study of the person that deserves it most?
you can find more info here:
http://www.cultural-expressions.com/
Traditionally we wear all white to "worship." and many times go topless so there really is no pressure to dress up. Kinda avoids the whole "appropriate dress" argument.
Originally posted by ast3r3x
all-in-all you have good argument (both sides) but i see that since dressing up is a modern way (i guess dressing up isn't modern just how u dress is different) to show respect that why not do it when going to spend your time at a place specifically created for the worship and study of the person that deserves it most?
I will reply with my two cents and it is not always the case but it very well could hold a lot of truth.
Not always but many times people that dress up to a high level at Church are trying to be seen. They want to be noticed. They look at others and think to themselves "hmmm Betty sure looks like a slob today,,, she must have been running late and slept in a little too late" Then you see some older ladies that see how many rings they can manage to wear at one time. It is a display of how they fit into the group. "Look at me I am well to do" To this note I can understand why groverat said of mormans wearing a uniform as to cut through this noise.
However I disagree personally and nothing more with both situations. The clorox cover up of the mormons is not something I sit well with and the "keeping up appearances" how do you look? Ohh you look great today Martha. impress the others around you and focus on how much better you dressed up than others. It is this never ending goal of trying to out-dress the others. Status, look at me.
I think balance is the order of the day where by people go to hear the message and what is worn by the members needs no consideration either to be managed by a system of clorox cover-up or by compare and contrast "ohh you look great Martha" type distraction.
To me the solution is a Church that is moderate and has a degree of some that dress nicely and some that dress casually in both cases not a factor as to why they came to worship and receive dynamic biblical teaching.
Just my thoughts and as always we all can choose how and where and why we worship.
Fellowship
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
Fangorn, God Bless, I thank you for your civil and respectful discussion but I still am left not understanding your point in regard to dress in Church. I read your listed reading in the bible above and found neither to address this issue.
Luke 21: 1-4 is about tithe and offering. Poor and Richer and how the poor person gave more than the rich did of themselves. It's not a clothing issue it is an obedience to God's will issue.
Mark 7: 1-23 This actually supports my view that ritual and tradition are man made and not the message of God. Mark 7: 7-9 Jesus was rather upset at this.
The above do not have anything to do with clothing.
Keep in mind I would not walk into a traditional Church in shorts and a t-shirt. I would dress the part. I would not be doing so to impress God or respect God as God knows it is not what I wear that indicates my tremendous respect and love for Him. It is His Love, His Mercy, His Provision, His Forgiveness, His Understanding, His Wisdom, and all else that I love and respect about God. It is not "my" clothing that has anything to do with this respect and love I have for God.
Have a great day Fangorn it is beautiful out!
God Bless,
Fellowship
Ah, but you SHOW your respect by how you dress. And what you wear DOES express your heart. I'm trying to keep this succint. There cannot be a disconnect between what one thinks/believes/feels and what one does. One without the other doesn't work. So in I Cor., a married woman should dress like a married woman. In Luke, from a loving heart (the widow) came the true offering, regardless of the actual amount. It wasn't that God knew the widow's faith but that she ACTED on her faith. And how one dresses is an application of that same principal--James 2:20; 2: 28 and James 2:26. We are saved by Grace but that Grace should manifest itself in every aspect of our life and being.
This is a real issue for me because I came to it the hard, long way. The "Christian Lifestyle" comes out of a seeking after the Will of God. Thus we say with the Psalmist:
The law of the LORD [is] perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD [is] sure, making wise the simple.
__
_\tPsa 19:8__\tThe statutes of the LORD [are] right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD [is] pure, enlightening the eyes.
__
_\tPsa 19:9__\tThe fear of the LORD [is] clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD [are] true [and] righteous altogether.
__
_\tPsa 19:10__\tMore to be desired [are they] than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
I will reply with my two cents and it is not always the case but it very well could hold a lot of truth.
To me the solution is a Church that is moderate and has a degree of some that dress nicely and some that dress casually in both cases not a factor as to why they came to worship and receive dynamic biblical teaching.
Just my thoughts and as always we all can choose how and where and why we worship.
Fellowship
Just read this after I made the other post.
Almost totally agree, which is why I said it was an issue of conscience.
what the heck?
I think the verse you're looking for is key in how Christians break from Greek thought....
"As a man thinks, so does he"
And no, that's not a Yoda quote from The Empire Strikes Back.
Originally posted by Fangorn
Ah, but you SHOW your respect by how you dress. And what you wear DOES express your heart. I'm trying to keep this succint. There cannot be a disconnect between what one thinks/believes/feels and what one does. One without the other doesn't work. So in I Cor., a married woman should dress like a married woman. In Luke, from a loving heart (the widow) came the true offering, regardless of the actual amount. It wasn't that God knew the widow's faith but that she ACTED on her faith. And how one dresses is an application of that same principal--James 2:20; 2: 28 and James 2:26. We are saved by Grace but that Grace should manifest itself in every aspect of our life and being.
This is a real issue for me because I came to it the hard, long way. The "Christian Lifestyle" comes out of a seeking after the Will of God. Thus we say with the Psalmist:
The law of the LORD [is] perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD [is] sure, making wise the simple.
__
_\tPsa 19:8__\tThe statutes of the LORD [are] right, rejoicing the heart: the commandment of the LORD [is] pure, enlightening the eyes.
__
_\tPsa 19:9__\tThe fear of the LORD [is] clean, enduring for ever: the judgments of the LORD [are] true [and] righteous altogether.
__
_\tPsa 19:10__\tMore to be desired [are they] than gold, yea, than much fine gold: sweeter also than honey and the honeycomb.
Fangorn I completely respect your views on this please know that as clear as it can be known. I simply view that what we wear does not indicate our heart. What we wear is actually influenced by many factors be it cultural or tradition. It is material and directed by what is expected by culture. You will notice a Hindu woman dresses much different than a western woman on average. This is a culture difference and neither one is right and the other wrong. It is simply a cultural tradition. Tradition does not have any connection to the heart of a worshiper. Please don't confuse man made traditions with God's message.
I respect your view and I love and respect God. What I have to wonder about are those who question my thoughts and feelings based on what I wear. That is a dangerous business.
One thing Jesus always taught is to open up to people not to cast people into groups.
We are all people. even the prostitute
Fellowship
Originally posted by Fangorn
Just read this after I made the other post.
Almost totally agree, which is why I said it was an issue of conscience.
Originally posted by ena
....the Psalms...as a dress code???
what the heck?
I think the verse you're looking for is key in how Christians break from Greek thought....
"As a man thinks, so does he"
And no, that's not a Yoda quote from The Empire Strikes Back.
Oh bite me! 8)
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
Fangorn I completely respect your views on this please know that as clear as it can be known. I simply view that what we wear does not indicate our heart. What we wear is actually influenced by many factors be it cultural or tradition. It is material and directed by what is expected by culture. You will notice a Hindu woman dresses much different than a western woman on average. This is a culture difference and neither one is right and the other wrong. It is simply a cultural tradition. Tradition does not have any connection to the heart of a worshiper. Please don't confuse man made traditions with God's message.
. . .
We are all people. even the prostitute
Fellowship
EXACTLY! One's culture defines what is repectful--thus the green hair example. I am not advocating that everyone must dress as 17th century Puritan to be a respectful worshiper. But typically speaking, jeans and a t-shirt is NOT what somone in our culture wears to meet with someone important--such as the president. The culture is the context and what you choose to put on is the message. And what you choose reveals, for the most part, who you are because it defines how you WANT people to think of you. All I am saying is that people should consider what they are wearing before they go into church--why am I wearing this and what am I telling people (and God) by wearing it?
Originally posted by FellowshipChurch iBook
.....Tradition does not have any connection to the heart of a worshiper......
I don't want to appear nasty, either Fellows. But I'd like to cross-examine you on something.
Christianity is a religion that claims that it's converts (by the illumination of the Holy Spirit) have the "Law" written on their hearts. Loving God is equated with obeying God. "If you love me keep my commandments." etc., etc.
(I understand the Christian concept of Grace as well , but, even with the Grace aspects of the Christian faith in tow, you can't negate or marginalize those earlier statements.)
How can a religion that is supposed to be operating in its converts at a heart/mind/being level not produce a tangible culture? Most churches that I have run into have a great deal of effort tied up into the "loving Jesus"/straight Gospel message from the pulpit. Sunday after Sunday there is much effort put into reiterating the Gospel message, with almost nothing that relates to day-to-day life. Many, many churches tend to be almost esoteric in the many practical aspects of living.
How do you account for this? Why isn't the modern day Church producing a tangible culture?
Originally posted by ena
I don't want to appear nasty, either Fellows. But I'd like to cross-examine you on something.
Christianity is a religion that claims that it's converts (by the illumination of the Holy Spirit) have the "Law" written on their hearts. Loving God is equated with obeying God. "If you love me keep my commandments." etc., etc.
(I understand the Christian concept of Grace as well , but, even with the Grace aspects of the Christian faith in tow, you can't negate or marginalize those earlier statements.)
How can a religion that is supposed to be operating in its converts at a heart/mind/being level not produce a tangible culture? Most churches that I have run into have a great deal of effort tied up into the "loving Jesus"/straight Gospel message from the pulpit. Sunday after Sunday there is much effort put into reiterating the Gospel message, with almost nothing that relates to day-to-day life. Many, many churches tend to be almost esoteric in the many practical aspects of living.
How do you account for this? Why isn't the modern day Church producing a tangible culture?
Ahhhh You are exactly right!!!!
I attend Fellowship Church because it does relate messages that relate to day-to-day life INDEED!!!
I too know what you are saying and some Churches out there have a lot of work that needs doing.
Fellowship
Originally posted by Fangorn
All I am saying is that people should consider what they are wearing before they go into church--why am I wearing this and what am I telling people (and God) by wearing it?
Dressing up for church could be as well you not being proud of yourself as your god's product, and dressing up to get the attention to how you want to be seen instead of what you are .. if god created you and loved you, he would like you even if you were naked. it's for the show, for the other people that attend your church that you have to show off.
Religion overall is actually increasing expotentially... supposedly with the figures I get everyday at work somethen as in 7 out of 10 believe in god and over half the country goes to church. now there is a lot of room to sway in these figures... Iots of people say they go to church and don't but you get what I mean.
Also overall the muslim religion is decreasing its share... with feminism and human rights involved, they have eroded their belief, and they are at a stranger time than christians. The only religion going anywhere it seems are these independant churchs.
as for everyone else remember Fellowship lives and works in one of the most religious city's on the face of planet, am I not mistaken if that particular church has the biggest congregation in world? I used to live there, grapevine in particular was very religioius.
Everyone needs to chill out tho seriously tho a belief is a belief and whats beautiful about everything in humanity is a persons' beliefs and how they mold it and themselves for it to fit them. Its whats beautiful about humanity, all believe in the same thing, everyone wants to be happy, but we go about it in such different ways.
then again.. heh Its so strange to hear about these anti-religious establishments tell you how they hate it how they feel like //insert religious standpoint// are shoving the system down their throat, when all I feel is like they are shoving their beliefs down mine.
Whats even sadder is that all of us christians, muslims, jews we all believe in the same god, have the same ancestors, and yet we fight over how to love and appreciate him. If someone would get a clue, and say as long as you observe him in your ways, the world would be a better place.
Originally posted by kraig911
The only religion going anywhere it seems are these independant churchs.
as for everyone else remember Fellowship lives and works in one of the most religious city's on the face of planet, am I not mistaken if that particular church has the biggest congregation in world? I used to live there, grapevine in particular was very religioius.
I would not say Grapevine is one of the most religious places on earth. It is one of the most wealthy. Grapevine, Southlake, Colleyville have a median income of around $250,000 per year.
Fellowship does not have the biggest congregation in the world. Ed Young my pastor has a father in Houston with a larger congregation for starters.
Fellowship did have 30,000 this Easter however!!!
Fellowship Link to info over Easter.
What our pastor does well is teach a vast busy DFW metroplex how to find balance in life in accordance with God's will for our lives. It is done in a very progressive and media rich style. Nothing is sub-par with this Church.
Yes, our church is big. But each person who comes through our doors, regardless of where they are in life, is important to us?because each one, including you, is important to God.
Ed Young
Senior Pastor
Taken from:
This Fellowship Link
Fellowship
Originally posted by kraig911
Religion overall is actually increasing expotentially... supposedly with the figures I get everyday at work somethen as in 7 out of 10 believe in god and over half the country goes to church. now there is a lot of room to sway in these figures... Iots of people say they go to church and don't but you get what I mean.
Also overall the muslim religion is decreasing its share... with feminism and human rights involved, they have eroded their belief, and they are at a stranger time than christians. The only religion going anywhere it seems are these independant churchs.
Whats even sadder is that all of us christians, muslims, jews we all believe in the same god, have the same ancestors, and yet we fight over how to love and appreciate him. If someone would get a clue, and say as long as you observe him in your ways, the world would be a better place.
I don't see the (christian) religion(s) overall having increased. at least in europe it wasn't. supposedly still e.g. 95-98 % of southern europeans are catholic / orthodoxes, but that is statistics, not anything more in practise. i am statistically catholic, and in practise might go more often to a temple of something else than a church, and believe in other (mentality, values, ideas etc).
feminism and human rights are not coming to the islamic countries before women are allowed to study, learn to read, work, drive a car, live and exist without men (fathers, husbands etc). religion (islamic) has not decreased.
i agree with the same base point thing. jews, christians, muslems have all the same god. and not enough people seem to remember that. there are more religions than those 3 though.