It's called 'reading.'* You can even get the books for free at a place called a 'library.' Hell, if you work hard enough you can apply for free money to go to 'school.' It's pretty sad if you are expecting to get your education from a computer product forum.
funny I have to explain this to someone with a book out.
Maybe he just expects someone who makes baseless, racist, conspiratorial claims to support them rather than just assert them.
The moon is made of cheese, it's not my fault you want support for what I claim!
We are talking about wo different stages. I'm focused more on the idea that blanket mental tests of any sort and the idea that they provide much useful information, whether you are talking about statistical overviews or individuals. Reliance on testing was born out of racial issues, though whether folks were aware of it at the time is debatable. I'm also coming from the understanding that Binet's test was one of the first important tests to really try to assess the abilities of students (of course, they would have been grammar student age).* I'll check out your link and learn more about standardized testing and college entrance exams in particular. I find this stuff really interesting.
If anyone needs any help in realizing the european bias, when in high school did you take any sort of class detailing pre-colonial african history and important figures? The high school I went to almost a decade ago is not only considered one of the best in the nation, it is half black. Yet somehow african history courses were sparse if existant at all.
*[edit] see below that the SAT descended from the Army Tests.
giant, thank you. Since I come from neither Europe nor Africa I suppose I couldn't pass the test either way.
Perhaps when you cover CONTENT and then the test is on CONTENT, that is called fair and balanced.
Or are you one of those multiculturalists that believe that human speech patterns and cultural knowledge are transmittable through genes and where our ancestors lived a hundred years ago?
Maybe he just expects someone who makes baseless, racist, conspiratorial claims to support them rather than just assert them.
Yeah, keep using rrelevant shock speech to excuse your ignorance. Do you know who Brigham is? I didn't think so. Try not to comment on stuff you know nothing about. Stick to real estate. Maybe you can make enough money to cushion you from the real world.
giant, thank you. Since I come from neither Europe nor Africa I suppose I couldn't pass the test either way.
The present is built on the past. Only people who aren't aware of the origins of mundane everyday thoughts, behaviors and social patterns pretend that the present is rootless.
Then again education has probably advanced quite a bit since those days that you slept through class.
There are some good arguments here, pro and con. (well... except that moronic bit about a 'conspiratyrany of Librls') I'd like to modify my notion a bit:
I believe that we should test students and yet that the test should not be the full measuring device for final analysis: I think that the problem of creating an environment where students learn towards testing rather than learn towards character development or 'edumacation' is a real problem.
ANd yet and yet and yet . ...
Strangely enough, in that I am lumped together with those Liberal Conspiratorial agenda mongering pinkos, I actually believe in the notion of the Western Canon . . . I think that it should be porous and ever shifting, but, there should still be a touchstone of a historical tradition that defines excellence with regards to critical and literate thought.
but I also believe in balance
The Canon should also include Confucius, Lao Tzu, Buddhist texts, Mencius etc etc, and more contemporaneously, Mishima, Tanazaki, etc etc . . ..
In the same light, standardized tests should be given but with the understanding that there are many forms of 'knowledge' that simply do not lay down and play dead for quantifiable analysis.
There is also something to be said for testing towards certain goals: if you will go to college in the Humanities then Eglish and writing *edit* imean riting* should be tested, etc etc.
Balance . . . Im all about balance
Nice explanation, really well thought out and explained.
so, approximately half of the people who aren't graduating also haven't passed based on other criteria. not sure why they're lumped in with the group of "kids who aren't graduating because of this test".
other than that, standardized tests are also good at picking out bright kids who don't try, something grades often miss.
as for a racial bias, it should also be noted that for the first time ever, there was improvement across the board for minority students. guess the tests aren't being racist enough.
That and grades are about the most subjective measure I can imagine in a school setting. Grades are really about who plays the "game" of school best.
The present is built on the past. Only people who aren't aware of the origins of mundane everyday thoughts, behaviors and social patterns pretend that the present is rootless.
Then again education has probably advanced quite a bit since those days that you slept through class.
Open ended generalitites and insults.
My you make such a compelling argument.
BTW, how can you refer to my education in the past tense when it is still occuring?
For most courses you get a grade based on the work done during the year. About a third of them is replaced by oral exams. And then you have written exams in all language courses and those on higher level.
The grades decide what higher education you can get accepted to based on supply and demand (and free of charge)
My way through high school was a bit different. I had full time jobs and took the courses a la carte (special brance of the high school system here). All my grades is from written and oral exams.
So no extra tests. All exams are linked to the courses and no ACT or other stuff like it.
That and grades are about the most subjective measure I can imagine in a school setting.
It's all subjective. How can you accurately analytically measure the human mind. An objective measure is a fantasy, which is a reason standarized testing needs to be reevaluated.
BTW, how can you refer to my education in the past tense when it is still occuring?
you've obviously not studied history of science, yet you make wild condemnations. I'm not sure what (or where) you study, but apparently it hasn't made you well-rounded.
Yeah, keep using rrelevant shock speech to excuse your ignorance. Do you know who Brigham is? I didn't think so. Try not to comment on stuff you know nothing about. Stick to real estate. Maybe you can make enough money to cushion you from the real world.
I see so you give me one name, not even a full name and if I don't know who it is I should unempower myself and cease speaking.
Do you know who Margaret is? Oh, if not then shut up.
Besides, its not that I know nothing about it, it's just that you are expressing your cultural worldview and the knowledge contained within it. How hateful and racist of you to assume my own knowledge and worldview is a) ignorance since it doesn't reflect your own culture and b) inferior since in expressing it you tell me to shut up.
You obviously know very little about me and are using your stereotypical, racist, condemning diatribes to intimidate others from exposing your own ignorance.
I see so you give me one name, not even a full name and if I don't know who it is I should unempower myself and cease speaking.
Do you know who Margaret is? Oh, if not then shut up.
Nick, what's wrong with you? If you don't know what someone is talking about, how can you say they are wrong? If you don't know who Brigham is, you are in no position to talk about the history of these tests.
BTW: What is this 'racist' BS? What's racist, pointing out that mental tests are rooted in attempted scientific proofs of white superiority? Go take a class and learn a thing or two. You can't change the past!
if math is neutral, then shouldn't we expect to see no difference between races due to racism?
Only if all races experience the same conditions for their learning on average.
But I have never understood the american attempt to make good what was done wrong ealier in the childrens eduaction. Affirmative action is in my view a futile and insufficient attempt to iron out then differences experienced by different individuals earlier on. Start by giving the kids an comparable equal basic education and AA would be superfluously.
The problem that you're skirting, of course, is the legitimizing quality of these tests. They are used to differentiate, and their claim of being objective is transfered to the act of differentiating. Differentiation is a power game and labelling tests "objective" is one way to render opposition to the tests irrelevant.
In the Florida case, you've got kids who have jumped through all the hoops set up for them, sans one. By giving the test so much weight, the Florida system is also saying "hey, it doesn't matter what kind of effort you put into school, the only thing that matters is mastering the logic of muliple choice."
It is also well documented that specific test-prep regimes, like Kaplan, can improve a standardized test score, which begins to poke holes in just how "objective" the whole enterprise is.
Now, if the tests were given and the passing grades noted, with the info plowed back into the schools as a check, I'd say why not. But what we've got here is a system that penalizes the very students it needs to better address.
Yes, that is a problem. But the problem isn't unique to admissions testing, it's a problem any time you try to categorize or diagnose. It's always a double-edged sword.
If we determine that someone has a learning disability, they get labeled, and then that label can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Even with something like depression - is it better to not diagnose them because of the stigma associated with the label of having a mental illness? I don't think so, because in order to help them they need to be diagnosed.
I don't know anything about the Florida example, but I think the test stems from the feeling that the schools aren't doing what they should, but they're passing them all along anyway. Do you agree that could be a problem, and that standardized testing is a logical solution to it?
The 'objective' label only refers to the scoring method - machine scored rather than human scored, like an essay test.
Just as I thought. Read the short history of the SAT and you see Brigham's Army Tests as the source. Well documented by Gould and exactly what I am talking about.
Brigham is an interesting character. He was accused of being racist, but on the other hand, he opposed the use of the test for college admissions, because he believed it was "one of the most glorious fallacies in the history of science, namely that the tests measured native intelligence purely and simply without regard to training or schooling. The test scores very definitely are a composite including schooling, family background, familiarity with English and everything else" (from here).
But I think you're being extremely unfair to all those liberals who wanted the SAT in order to make admissions more egalitarian and less classist when you say "standardized tests were created to be racist." I think the real story is how standardized testing was pushed by liberals, but then the tests themselves betrayed those liberals.
Nick, what's wrong with you? If you don't know what someone is talking about, how can you say they are wrong? If you don't know who Brigham is, you are in no position to talk about the history of these tests.
BTW: What is this 'racist' BS? What's racist, pointing out that mental tests are rooted in attempted scientific proofs of white superiority? Go take a class and learn a thing or two. You can't change the past!
giant,
You are lucky I am a teacher. I am a patient person.
Do you really not see the hypocracy of your own position?
Hey, if you don't happen to know this bit of information I've decided is important, then you are ignorant...
What do you think the problem is with the tests? They attempt to you use small, isolated bits of information to judge the intellectual ability of a person. So do you.
You claim the tests are racist because they rely on information related to the culture of the people creating them and were created to insure that only people of that culture do well on them. People who do not do well them are thus academically unfit and unintelligent.
The bias and conclusions makes them racist.
You then ask information relating to the history of certain people in a certain culture. (U.S. and Western) You declare that people who don't "know" your cultural information are academically unfit and unintelligent.
Your bias and conclusions thus make you a racist.
If someone with a doctorate from Japan doesn't know who Brigham is, does that mean they received a bad education?
Yes, that is a problem. But the problem isn't unique to admissions testing, it's a problem any time you try to categorize or diagnose. It's always a double-edged sword.
If we determine that someone has a learning disability, they get labeled, and then that label can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Even with something like depression - is it better to not diagnose them because of the stigma associated with the label of having a mental illness? I don't think so, because in order to help them they need to be diagnosed.
I don't know anything about the Florida example, but I think the test stems from the feeling that the schools aren't doing what they should, but they're passing them all along anyway. Do you agree that could be a problem, and that standardized testing is a logical solution to it?
The 'objective' label only refers to the scoring method - machine scored rather than human scored, like an essay test.
BRussell, thanks for the link and the information. It's nice that even at AppleOutsider, where thing can become heated, there are still people who answer honest questions honestly, without derision and name-calling.
Comments
Originally posted by giant
It's called 'reading.'* You can even get the books for free at a place called a 'library.' Hell, if you work hard enough you can apply for free money to go to 'school.' It's pretty sad if you are expecting to get your education from a computer product forum.
funny I have to explain this to someone with a book out.
Maybe he just expects someone who makes baseless, racist, conspiratorial claims to support them rather than just assert them.
The moon is made of cheese, it's not my fault you want support for what I claim!
Nick
Originally posted by giant
We are talking about wo different stages. I'm focused more on the idea that blanket mental tests of any sort and the idea that they provide much useful information, whether you are talking about statistical overviews or individuals. Reliance on testing was born out of racial issues, though whether folks were aware of it at the time is debatable. I'm also coming from the understanding that Binet's test was one of the first important tests to really try to assess the abilities of students (of course, they would have been grammar student age).* I'll check out your link and learn more about standardized testing and college entrance exams in particular. I find this stuff really interesting.
If anyone needs any help in realizing the european bias, when in high school did you take any sort of class detailing pre-colonial african history and important figures? The high school I went to almost a decade ago is not only considered one of the best in the nation, it is half black. Yet somehow african history courses were sparse if existant at all.
*[edit] see below that the SAT descended from the Army Tests.
giant, thank you. Since I come from neither Europe nor Africa I suppose I couldn't pass the test either way.
Perhaps when you cover CONTENT and then the test is on CONTENT, that is called fair and balanced.
Or are you one of those multiculturalists that believe that human speech patterns and cultural knowledge are transmittable through genes and where our ancestors lived a hundred years ago?
Nick
Originally posted by trumptman
Maybe he just expects someone who makes baseless, racist, conspiratorial claims to support them rather than just assert them.
Yeah, keep using rrelevant shock speech to excuse your ignorance. Do you know who Brigham is? I didn't think so. Try not to comment on stuff you know nothing about. Stick to real estate. Maybe you can make enough money to cushion you from the real world.
Originally posted by trumptman
giant, thank you. Since I come from neither Europe nor Africa I suppose I couldn't pass the test either way.
The present is built on the past. Only people who aren't aware of the origins of mundane everyday thoughts, behaviors and social patterns pretend that the present is rootless.
Then again education has probably advanced quite a bit since those days that you slept through class.
Originally posted by pfflam
There are some good arguments here, pro and con. (well... except that moronic bit about a 'conspiratyrany of Librls') I'd like to modify my notion a bit:
I believe that we should test students and yet that the test should not be the full measuring device for final analysis: I think that the problem of creating an environment where students learn towards testing rather than learn towards character development or 'edumacation' is a real problem.
ANd yet and yet and yet . ...
Strangely enough, in that I am lumped together with those Liberal Conspiratorial agenda mongering pinkos, I actually believe in the notion of the Western Canon . . . I think that it should be porous and ever shifting, but, there should still be a touchstone of a historical tradition that defines excellence with regards to critical and literate thought.
but I also believe in balance
The Canon should also include Confucius, Lao Tzu, Buddhist texts, Mencius etc etc, and more contemporaneously, Mishima, Tanazaki, etc etc . . ..
In the same light, standardized tests should be given but with the understanding that there are many forms of 'knowledge' that simply do not lay down and play dead for quantifiable analysis.
There is also something to be said for testing towards certain goals: if you will go to college in the Humanities then Eglish and writing *edit* imean riting* should be tested, etc etc.
Balance . . . Im all about balance
Nice explanation, really well thought out and explained.
Nick
Originally posted by alcimedes
so, approximately half of the people who aren't graduating also haven't passed based on other criteria. not sure why they're lumped in with the group of "kids who aren't graduating because of this test".
other than that, standardized tests are also good at picking out bright kids who don't try, something grades often miss.
as for a racial bias, it should also be noted that for the first time ever, there was improvement across the board for minority students. guess the tests aren't being racist enough.
That and grades are about the most subjective measure I can imagine in a school setting. Grades are really about who plays the "game" of school best.
Nick
Originally posted by giant
The present is built on the past. Only people who aren't aware of the origins of mundane everyday thoughts, behaviors and social patterns pretend that the present is rootless.
Then again education has probably advanced quite a bit since those days that you slept through class.
Open ended generalitites and insults.
My you make such a compelling argument.
BTW, how can you refer to my education in the past tense when it is still occuring?
Nick
For most courses you get a grade based on the work done during the year. About a third of them is replaced by oral exams. And then you have written exams in all language courses and those on higher level.
The grades decide what higher education you can get accepted to based on supply and demand (and free of charge)
My way through high school was a bit different. I had full time jobs and took the courses a la carte (special brance of the high school system here). All my grades is from written and oral exams.
So no extra tests. All exams are linked to the courses and no ACT or other stuff like it.
if math is neutral, then shouldn't we expect to see no difference between races due to racism?
Originally posted by trumptman
That and grades are about the most subjective measure I can imagine in a school setting.
It's all subjective. How can you accurately analytically measure the human mind. An objective measure is a fantasy, which is a reason standarized testing needs to be reevaluated.
Originally posted by trumptman
BTW, how can you refer to my education in the past tense when it is still occuring?
you've obviously not studied history of science, yet you make wild condemnations. I'm not sure what (or where) you study, but apparently it hasn't made you well-rounded.
Originally posted by giant
Yeah, keep using rrelevant shock speech to excuse your ignorance. Do you know who Brigham is? I didn't think so. Try not to comment on stuff you know nothing about. Stick to real estate. Maybe you can make enough money to cushion you from the real world.
I see so you give me one name, not even a full name and if I don't know who it is I should unempower myself and cease speaking.
Do you know who Margaret is? Oh, if not then shut up.
Besides, its not that I know nothing about it,
You obviously know very little about me and are using your stereotypical, racist, condemning diatribes to intimidate others from exposing your own ignorance.
Nick
Originally posted by trumptman
I see so you give me one name, not even a full name and if I don't know who it is I should unempower myself and cease speaking.
Do you know who Margaret is? Oh, if not then shut up.
Nick, what's wrong with you? If you don't know what someone is talking about, how can you say they are wrong? If you don't know who Brigham is, you are in no position to talk about the history of these tests.
BTW: What is this 'racist' BS? What's racist, pointing out that mental tests are rooted in attempted scientific proofs of white superiority? Go take a class and learn a thing or two. You can't change the past!
Originally posted by alcimedes
if math is neutral, then shouldn't we expect to see no difference between races due to racism?
Only if all races experience the same conditions for their learning on average.
But I have never understood the american attempt to make good what was done wrong ealier in the childrens eduaction. Affirmative action is in my view a futile and insufficient attempt to iron out then differences experienced by different individuals earlier on. Start by giving the kids an comparable equal basic education and AA would be superfluously.
Originally posted by Anders the White
Start by giving the kids an comparable equal basic education and AA would be superfluously.
I agree 100%. Unfortunately, that would require our government to do less war-mongering and instead focus more on helping average Americans.
Originally posted by Timo
The problem that you're skirting, of course, is the legitimizing quality of these tests. They are used to differentiate, and their claim of being objective is transfered to the act of differentiating. Differentiation is a power game and labelling tests "objective" is one way to render opposition to the tests irrelevant.
In the Florida case, you've got kids who have jumped through all the hoops set up for them, sans one. By giving the test so much weight, the Florida system is also saying "hey, it doesn't matter what kind of effort you put into school, the only thing that matters is mastering the logic of muliple choice."
It is also well documented that specific test-prep regimes, like Kaplan, can improve a standardized test score, which begins to poke holes in just how "objective" the whole enterprise is.
Now, if the tests were given and the passing grades noted, with the info plowed back into the schools as a check, I'd say why not. But what we've got here is a system that penalizes the very students it needs to better address.
Yes, that is a problem. But the problem isn't unique to admissions testing, it's a problem any time you try to categorize or diagnose. It's always a double-edged sword.
If we determine that someone has a learning disability, they get labeled, and then that label can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Even with something like depression - is it better to not diagnose them because of the stigma associated with the label of having a mental illness? I don't think so, because in order to help them they need to be diagnosed.
I don't know anything about the Florida example, but I think the test stems from the feeling that the schools aren't doing what they should, but they're passing them all along anyway. Do you agree that could be a problem, and that standardized testing is a logical solution to it?
The 'objective' label only refers to the scoring method - machine scored rather than human scored, like an essay test.
Originally posted by giant
Just as I thought. Read the short history of the SAT and you see Brigham's Army Tests as the source. Well documented by Gould and exactly what I am talking about.
Brigham is an interesting character. He was accused of being racist, but on the other hand, he opposed the use of the test for college admissions, because he believed it was "one of the most glorious fallacies in the history of science, namely that the tests measured native intelligence purely and simply without regard to training or schooling. The test scores very definitely are a composite including schooling, family background, familiarity with English and everything else" (from here).
But I think you're being extremely unfair to all those liberals who wanted the SAT in order to make admissions more egalitarian and less classist when you say "standardized tests were created to be racist." I think the real story is how standardized testing was pushed by liberals, but then the tests themselves betrayed those liberals.
Originally posted by giant
Nick, what's wrong with you? If you don't know what someone is talking about, how can you say they are wrong? If you don't know who Brigham is, you are in no position to talk about the history of these tests.
BTW: What is this 'racist' BS? What's racist, pointing out that mental tests are rooted in attempted scientific proofs of white superiority? Go take a class and learn a thing or two. You can't change the past!
giant,
You are lucky I am a teacher. I am a patient person.
Do you really not see the hypocracy of your own position?
Hey, if you don't happen to know this bit of information I've decided is important, then you are ignorant...
What do you think the problem is with the tests? They attempt to you use small, isolated bits of information to judge the intellectual ability of a person. So do you.
You claim the tests are racist because they rely on information related to the culture of the people creating them and were created to insure that only people of that culture do well on them. People who do not do well them are thus academically unfit and unintelligent.
The bias and conclusions makes them racist.
You then ask information relating to the history of certain people in a certain culture. (U.S. and Western) You declare that people who don't "know" your cultural information are academically unfit and unintelligent.
Your bias and conclusions thus make you a racist.
If someone with a doctorate from Japan doesn't know who Brigham is, does that mean they received a bad education?
Keep digging,because it is getting deep in here.
Nick
Originally posted by BRussell
Yes, that is a problem. But the problem isn't unique to admissions testing, it's a problem any time you try to categorize or diagnose. It's always a double-edged sword.
If we determine that someone has a learning disability, they get labeled, and then that label can become a self-fulfilling prophecy. Even with something like depression - is it better to not diagnose them because of the stigma associated with the label of having a mental illness? I don't think so, because in order to help them they need to be diagnosed.
I don't know anything about the Florida example, but I think the test stems from the feeling that the schools aren't doing what they should, but they're passing them all along anyway. Do you agree that could be a problem, and that standardized testing is a logical solution to it?
The 'objective' label only refers to the scoring method - machine scored rather than human scored, like an essay test.
I think that thatis the problem
but tests are only a partial answer